Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

19 picks for 5-ish players

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=44 70 chip;768353]Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

19 picks for 5-ish players[/quote]


I think that's what separates a front office that has a great scouting team and great GM. We have gotten some good players (Sean Taylor RIP, Clinton Portis, Chris Cooley, Santana Moss, Brian Orakpo, etc...) we do tend to pay dearly to get the players we want, which means having to sacrifice down the road instead of adding to.

I think Bruce Allen is what the Redskins need in order to not give the farm and all of the hen houses away for one or two franchise players, but I think the 'skins still need a Bobby Beathard type to find the diamonds in the rough, something I'm not so sure Allen knows how to do.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=44 70 chip;768353]Well my post wasn't about older players specifically but the "careless" way the FO has used draft picks in general. Notice Carriker is not on there several other's like Eathan Albright...

The ones I listed are stand outs for pissing away draft picks.

Cooley love him, great TE but honestly don't need to spend 2 picks on a TE, there are highly comparable TE's drafted with ONE pick... Not putting Cooley down but he's not Antonio Gates.

Portis, if anything a smart GM would have asked for a pick back from Denver... throwing a pick in there was sheer stupidity MAYBE... Shut down corners are and were a much more valuable comodity than Mike Shanahan running backs... He's a good redskin and nothing against portis but they overpaid.

Campbell... we overpaid and even at the time the pick was considered a "reach" and "risky".

And so on... the point isn't ... oh hell the point doesn't need to be anything but this:

we used 19 draft picks to get Cooley, Portis, an average inside LB and MAYBE McNabb for a couple years, and Brown for 3 more games MAYBE more...

[B]19 picks for 5-ish players[/B][/quote]

Yeah, you summed it up perfectly. That's just plain bad. Real bad. What sucks is that the top teams in the league do it just the opposite, but this team stayed with it year after year, hoping one day it would work. Oh well, I do think Snyder has learned the lesson.

I mentioned this in another thread, but the guy I'm looking at more and more is Rocky McIntosh. Talk about falling all over yourself to get a guy that has been nothing but mediocre. For a Ray Lewis-Brian Urlacher-Patrick Willis type guy, fine, do what you have to do. Maybe. But Rocky McIntosh? Ugh.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

We are rebuilding.
Shanahan and Haslett implemented their systems and they are making players run it. We are not going to have 8 new starters on defense next year so it's in our best interest to make the players learn the system now and incorporate new complimentary players in the upcoming drafts. Realistically, you can only do so much with a draft. We would be lucky if we drafted 3 players that start next year when we probably need 10 new players.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768294]Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them[/quote]

Correct

Mark Brunell - back to 04
Jason Taylor
Pete Kendall

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

What exactly is rebuilding and how long is it supposed to take? The idea of a multi-year rebuilding process just doesnt fly in today's win now NFL. The problem is that while the Skins are rebuilding everyone else is working on getting better also so they are trying to hit a moving target. The Skins are so far behind they might never really catch up. The thing that worries me is that the Skins are the new Detroit, and we all know how long Detroit has been rebuilding, re-organizing, or whatever one want to call it.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Daseal;768264]We have NOT tried to rebuild yet. A lot of people equate losing to rebuilding. Just because we suck doesn’t mean we’re rebuilding. We’re still giving up draft picks for 34 year old players. That is not rebuilding – that’s saying we want to win now. If you want to pick up some veteran FA’s. Fine. If you are trading for them, sacrificing young future players for the team, you’re still trying to win.
I’m ready to break the core of this team apart. See what we can get some value for, turn to the younger players. Start building a new attitude in DC. Not saying trade away everyone. But keep age in mind. Anyone over the age of 27/28 should be expendable, for the right price.[/quote]

This is exactly what I meant. Sure, every year every team tries to get younger. BUT rebuilding means that you (1) keep your draft picks, and (2) trade away older core great players to get more picks or younger players. Just like NE trading Randy Moss - good player but the 3rd round pick is more valuable to the team in the long-term. Brilliant.

For us, it'd be any of these guys:
- Cooley
- S.Moss
- C. Rogers
- A.Carter

These are great players but -- how would they help us in the next 3 years? They'd all be older than 31-32 by then, and past their primes. Better to have a younger player that can be around for 10 years.

That is what I meant about rebuilding. Again, I'm not sure we're going to do it. If we get lucky with picks and trades, we can put together a good team each year. But rebuilding has the potential to make a great team for a decade, like NE/Ravens/etc.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;768244]I guess someone needs to slap a big sign on the front of Redskins Park that says we are rebuilding to make everyone happy.

There was only so much rebuilding that could be done last year with limited picks and a limited FA pool. That said they still turned over 1/3 of the roster and the changes next year should only continue.[/quote]


Matty:

You are absolutely right! The only way to rebuild more quickly is to have stockpiled draft picks - - like the Bucs did - - and then to spend the time and $$$ on the scouting department to get the draft right - - which the Skins have never done since the Bobby Beathard days.


How many picks do the Skins have next year? I believe the Pats have 11...

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;768425]Matty:

You are absolutely right! The only way to rebuild more quickly is to have stockpiled draft picks - - like the Bucs did - - and then to spend the time and $$$ on the scouting department to get the draft right - - which the Skins have never done since the Bobby Beathard days.


How many picks do the Skins have next year? I believe the Pats have 11...[/quote]

Bobby Beathard's Redskins drafted a lot of duds in the mid to late rounds. A lot. Not to mention regularly traded out of the first round. But he did do a good job of putting the team in a position on draft day to afford to make countless mistakes. We haven't really put ourselves in that position recently.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768294]Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them[/quote]The FO traded picks for aging Mark Brunell and Pete Kendall, both of whom may have been released, where the Skins could have then picked them up for nothing. Draft picks were also involved in deals to acquire Portis, Duckett, Lloyd, and Jason Taylor, in addition to McNabb and Jamaal Brown last offseason. If the Patriots are the gold standard for building great teams through the draft, the Skins' methods for the last 12 years should be a cautionary example of how to stay mediocre in today's NFL.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768427]Bobby Beathard's Redskins drafted a lot of duds in the mid to late rounds. A lot. Not to mention regularly traded out of the first round. [B]But he did do a good job of putting the team in a position on draft day to afford to make countless mistakes.[/B] We haven't really put ourselves in that position recently.[/quote]

That's essentially half of a good draft strategy; getting picks. The other half is of course scouting & drafting well. We haven't drafted that poorly on a per capita basis compared to the rest of the league, we just have squandered so many picks that we've got less to show for our drafts.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I thought the trade for Brunell was fine, Kendall we got I think for a 5th rounder (shouldn't have come to that, but not a bad move for some veteran OL help). Portis has had (if it's over) quite a career for the Redskins. The Duckett move was a total waste. Didn't like it from the start. Expected much more from Lloyd, but he was a WR in his prime when we traded for him.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=ethat001;768397]This is exactly what I meant. Sure, every year every team tries to get younger. BUT rebuilding means that you (1) keep your draft picks, and (2) trade away older core great players to get more picks or younger players. Just like NE trading Randy Moss - good player but the 3rd round pick is more valuable to the team in the long-term. Brilliant.

For us, it'd be any of these guys:
- [B]Cooley[/B]
[B]- S.Moss [/B]
[B]- C. Rogers[/B]
[B]- A.Carter[/B]

These are great players but -- how would they help us in the next 3 years? They'd all be older than 31-32 by then, and past their primes. Better to have a younger player that can be around for 10 years.

That is what I meant about rebuilding. Again, I'm not sure we're going to do it. If we get lucky with picks and trades, we can put together a good team each year. But rebuilding has the potential to make a great team for a decade, like NE/Ravens/etc.[/quote]

I'd add Landry as the most tradable player we have. Certainly I don't want to see him go, but what if a scenario like this comes up:

LL, AH & our 1st rounder to NO (the GW connection w/Landry) for multiple picks, e.g. their 1st-3rd? I'm just sayin, Landry is the only guy that could generate a blockbuster deal. I would hope Orakpo is off limits unless we get a H. Walker type offer.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=freddyg12;768484]That's essentially half of a good draft strategy; getting picks. The other half is of course scouting & drafting well. We haven't drafted that poorly on a per capita basis compared to the rest of the league, we just have squandered so many picks that we've got less to show for our drafts.[/quote]

Agreed, to an extent. Good draft strategy is either accumulating picks or making smart decisions with the picks you have. But I've brought up the Patriots in the past, they have had several draft picks that either a) contributed nothing in their first year and/or are no longer with the team, let alone in the league. But they give themselves countless opportunities to build the team

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768490]Agreed, to an extent. Good draft strategy is either accumulating picks or making smart decisions with the picks you have. But I've brought up the Patriots in the past, they have had several draft picks that either a) contributed nothing in their first year and/or are no longer with the team, let alone in the league. But they give themselves countless opportunities to build the team[/quote]

pats & iggles have had about the same strategy over the years; build through the draft, acquire additional picks when possible & let old players walk or trade them.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Yes.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768260]Graham Gano essentially represents the conundrum Redskins fans face. Ask every 5 Redskins fans, and probably 3 want him gone. But if you want to rebuild, you probably have to have patience and put up with Gano missing some kicks, Sundberg botching a snap, Banks fumbling, Riley committing a penalty, Moore missing a tackle...that said, there's a fine (very fine) line between being patient and holding on for too long[/quote]

Don't have a problem with Gano missing yesterday. Keep the guy around and let him learn from it and hopefully it will make him mentally tougher. Same w/ Riley. Actually I'd like to see Riley get snaps on defense and Banks more snaps on offense. At this point what good does it do the team in the future to keep putting Roydell Williams out there? Moore really doesn't seem like he's a good player. If your free safety can't tackle then it's time to move on.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

YEah, the Skins have been rebuilding, just not doing a good job of it. This organization has been rebuilding since Gibbs left the first time. The Turner years would have been more succesful if we had drafted a lot wiser than we did. THe Shuler bust forced us to go to guys that were brought in to be nice young backups(Frerotte, Green), but ended up being starters. If Shuler didn't suck, and lived up to expectations the franchise would have been fine. The Desmond Howard debacle hurt also. The past ten years has sucked for us in the draft as well. To me we need a new and improved scouting crew, but even that is worthless if the FO doesn't have some sort of plan in place to build a winner. THus far, I am not seeing it. THis past draft we did get Trent, but the rest of it seemed disjointed since we gave up picks. KEEP THE PICKS DAMNIT!!!!!!!!

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Could have resigned Trent Green, but instead gave up 3 draft picks to the Vikings for a 2 year rental of Brad Johnson.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=drew54;768625]Could have resigned Trent Green, but instead gave up 3 draft picks to the Vikings for a 2 year rental of Brad Johnson.[/quote]

I think the ownership issue prevented us from giving a more lucrative offer to Green.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

The Skins will likely be the most active team in free agency this off-season. As much as I want to build through the draft we just don't have enough picks to do it all in one off-season or even two.
On the bright side what the Skins have done already is clear a lot of bad contracts off their books this season to make room for a lot of free agent additions next year. I think a new CBA will be reached and when it does the Skins will be in good shape and not be working frantically to re-work a bunch of contracts of their high priced vets and in the process hurt outer years with regards to cap space. I don't see the Skins going strong into the restricted FA pool. If they sign a bunch of mid priced FA's to replenish the roster that is fine by me. I think going after the highest priced guys may be a mistake as we have too many holes to fill.

I think a lot people forgot that one of the reasons the Skins had a lot of success in the previous Gibbs years was the team had an owner willing to shovel big bucks in areas like the plan B free agency pool - we simply stockpiled players on our roster as JKC was willing to fork over the money to keep that part of the roster ready to step in as injuries occured. Now Synder obviously overspent on a lot of FA's who were on the tail end of their career and also went along with a FO that traded a lot of their picks for restricted FA's, but I think he and the current team he has in place are not going to have this be their main method of building moving forward. I think we go after a lot of UFA's and also try and find as many gems like Banks as we can. At the same time we keep most of our draft picks and start the process of adding youth via the draft. In summary the silver lining of this season folks over others is we have cleared the books and are in much better shape from a cap perspective compared to other years. Not too mention I have heard that the upcoming 2011 Class is likely to be pretty deep compared to others.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=drew54;768625]Could have resigned Trent Green, but instead gave up 3 draft picks to the Vikings for a 2 year rental of Brad Johnson.[/quote]

Could have just re-signed BJ too, but Snyder was in love with Jeff George and we know how well that went.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Bill B;768662]The Skins will likely be the most active team in free agency this off-season. As much as I want to build through the draft we just don't have enough picks to do it all in one off-season or even two.
On the bright side what the Skins have done already is clear a lot of bad contracts off their books this season to make room for a lot of free agent additions next year. I think a new CBA will be reached and when it does the Skins will be in good shape and not be working frantically to re-work a bunch of contracts of their high priced vets and in the process hurt outer years with regards to cap space. I don't see the Skins going strong into the restricted FA pool. If they sign a bunch of mid priced FA's to replenish the roster that is fine by me. I think going after the highest priced guys may be a mistake as we have too many holes to fill.

I think a lot people forgot that one of the reasons the Skins had a lot of success in the previous Gibbs years was [B]the team had an owner willing to shovel big bucks in areas like the plan B free agency pool[/B] - we simply stockpiled players on our roster as JKC was willing to fork over the money to keep that part of the roster ready to step in as injuries occured. Now Synder obviously overspent on a lot of FA's who were on the tail end of their career and also went along with a FO that traded a lot of their picks for restricted FA's, but I think he and the current team he has in place are not going to have this be their main method of building moving forward. I think we go after a lot of UFA's and also try and find as many gems like Banks as we can. At the same time we keep most of our draft picks and start the process of adding youth via the draft. In summary the silver lining of this season folks over others is we have cleared the books and are in much better shape from a cap perspective compared to other years. Not too mention I have heard that the upcoming 2011 Class is likely to be pretty deep compared to others.[/quote]

This reminded me again of how much the Bellicheck Pats teams are like Gibbs' old teams. Bellicheck might never admit that, but he was w/the g-men at the time & observed a lot of great skins teams. Just like the plan b free agents, the pats will bring in some old guys to supplement the core of their roster. The difference between the old plan b skins/today's Pats v. the skins of Snyder; those guys did not form the core of the roster like FAs have for us in the last 10 years.

It's not that FA in itself is a flawed approach, it's the strategy & emphasis on it that has killed us.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=freddyg12;768707]This reminded me again of how much the Bellicheck Pats teams are like Gibbs' old teams. Bellicheck might never admit that, but he was w/the g-men at the time & observed a lot of great skins teams. Just like the plan b free agents, the pats will bring in some old guys to supplement the core of their roster. The difference between the old plan b skins/today's Pats v. the skins of Snyder; those guys did not form the core of the roster like FAs have for us in the last 10 years.

It's not that FA in itself is a flawed approach, it's the strategy & emphasis on it that has killed us.[/quote]

I don't know. I think several of the key players on our 91 team, particularly on defense were FAs. It's so tough to compare eras though

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768710]I don't know. I think several of the key players on our 91 team, particularly on defense were FAs. It's so tough to compare eras though[/quote]

Sure, Gathers at DT, Fred Stokes at DE, Matt Millen at MLB, Copeland at SS, Wilbur Marshall at OLB, etc. But they were added to a solid core of homegrown vet skins; D. Green, C. Mann, Monte Coleman, K. Gouevia, M. Mayhew, & Pettibon had been there for years.

The parallel to me is that Gibbs could get an old once good/great player like Matt Millen to play a vital role, just the way Bellicheck has w/ old free agents like Junior Seau, Moss, Fred Taylor, etc.

My main point is, if the team is solid & has an established coaching staff & system, vet free agents can come in and play important roles right away. That's where I see the parallel between Gibbs' 1 & Bellicheck.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;768245]I knew that this year we were seeing Rebuilding whether they wanted to admit it or not.[/quote]

Yeah,.the rebuilding process started when Vinny was canned and Allen was brought in. I don't know why so many people won't admit it.

I knew this would be a transition/rebuliding year, with more success in year #2.


Of course, I had blindly optimistic hopes for the team...I always do as a true fan...but there was a LOT to fix with a 4-12 team with no offensive line whatsoever...more than could be fixed in a single year.

We've made a lot more progress than our record shows. I'm a bit worried about the defensive scheme, but individuals have played well on defense. The 4-3 to 3-4 move is rarely smooth.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Bill B;768662][B]The Skins will likely be the most active team in free agency this off-season. As much as I want to build through the draft we just don't have enough picks to do it all in one off-season or even two[/B].
On the bright side what the Skins have done already is clear a lot of bad contracts off their books this season to make room for a lot of free agent additions next year. I think a new CBA will be reached and when it does the Skins will be in good shape and not be working frantically to re-work a bunch of contracts of their high priced vets and in the process hurt outer years with regards to cap space. I don't see the Skins going strong into the restricted FA pool. If they sign a bunch of mid priced FA's to replenish the roster that is fine by me. I think going after the highest priced guys may be a mistake as we have too many holes to fill.

I think a lot people forgot that one of the reasons the Skins had a lot of success in the previous Gibbs years was the team had an owner willing to shovel big bucks in areas like the plan B free agency pool - we simply stockpiled players on our roster as JKC was willing to fork over the money to keep that part of the roster ready to step in as injuries occured. Now Synder obviously overspent on a lot of FA's who were on the tail end of their career and also went along with a FO that traded a lot of their picks for restricted FA's, but I think he and the current team he has in place are not going to have this be their main method of building moving forward. I think we go after a lot of UFA's and also try and find as many gems like Banks as we can. At the same time we keep most of our draft picks and start the process of adding youth via the draft. In summary the silver lining of this season folks over others is we have cleared the books and are in much better shape from a cap perspective compared to other years. Not too mention I have heard that the upcoming 2011 Class is likely to be pretty deep compared to others.[/quote]

You're probably right cause Shanahan doesn't come here for a rebuilding job. So they're going to go out and overpay some guys and it won't work cause it never works and we're right back to square one. I just wish they'd realize that there is no such thing as a quick fix.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=skinsfan69;768822]You're probably right cause Shanahan doesn't come here for a rebuilding job. [B]So they're going to go out and overpay some guys[/B] and it won't work cause it never works and we're right back to square one. I just wish they'd realize that there is no such thing as a quick fix.[/quote]

We've had 1 offseason w/Allen & Shan, do you think they "overpaid" anybody? They didn't sign AH, that was on Vinny's watch. They just brought in reasonable contracts this year & a no. of undrafted players or guys recently cut by other teams, e.g. Torain, Armstrong, Lichtensteiger.

While I expect that we'll be busy in free agency due to the needs of the team & the no. of good players availalbe, I expect Allen to keep the signing bonuses in check, that's what he's known for. For the really good free agents I expect deals like McNabb's; potential big $ but an easy out for the team if it doesn't go well.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Buster;768772]Yeah,.the rebuilding process started when Vinny was canned and Allen was brought in. I don't know why so many people won't admit it.

I knew this would be a transition/rebuliding year, with more success in year #2.


Of course, I had blindly optimistic hopes for the team...I always do as a true fan...but there was a LOT to fix with a 4-12 team with no offensive line whatsoever...more than could be fixed in a single year.

We've made a lot more progress than our record shows. I'm a bit worried about the defensive scheme, but individuals have played well on defense. The 4-3 to 3-4 move is rarely smooth.[/quote]




Agree the Skins changed course when Vinny turned in the keys to the executive wash room. And I defnitely agree the change in course was a positive one.

I must say however that I really do not know how much Bruce Allen has had to do with the new direction of the team - - other than to be a figurehead and a pointman for marketing/PR/communications activities. It sure looks to me as if Mike Shanahan is the main man and Bruce Allen handles contracts and salary caps and community stuff only.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

BA is definitely involved with personnel to a degree.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Bruce Allen was instrumental in bringing Joey Galloway here...make of that what you will

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Doing game breakdown now...

I would pay $20 to watch a Rocky McIntosh lowlight reel. He's not bad in the same way that Casey Rabach is bad (the "why are you in the NFL" way). McIntosh LOOKS like a pretty imposing LB before the snap. He's just a dreadful, mistake-prone LB after the snap. A big reason why we have struggled against the run this year.

Not as big of a reason as Kedric Golston being out of position, but still.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;768857]Agree the Skins changed course when Vinny turned in the keys to the executive wash room. And I defnitely agree the change in course was a positive one.

I must say however that I really do not know how much Bruce Allen has had to do with the new direction of the team - - other than to be a figurehead and a pointman for marketing/PR/communications activities. It sure looks to me as if Mike Shanahan is the main man and Bruce Allen [B]handles contracts and salary caps[/B] and community stuff only.[/quote]

Pretty major stuff! He's ushered in a new era of fiscal responsibility thus far.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=freddyg12;768951]Pretty major stuff! He's ushered in a new era of fiscal responsibility thus far.[/quote]

Biggest payroll in the NFC and that's fiscal responsibility?

How many new/additional scouts did he hire for the Redskins - - collegiate scouts and pro player scouts? I believe the answer would be ZERO. And that makes improvement on your drafting and free agency evaluations more of a "random thing" than an organizational commitment.

The Skins need to rebuild. They do not have the infrastructure to do that - - because they do not have the organizational commitment to do that.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;768294]Trading draft picks for older players (over 30) has happened much much much less frequently than we fans seem to want to think it has. Aside from McNabb, how many times have we done that in recent years? I'm sure there have been a couple other times, but I really can't think of them[/quote]

Gonzalez got traded at around 32/33 for a second round pick so it's certainly possible. Cooley would obviously be a tough choice but if they're not going to use the two tight end sets then it wouldn't be a bad idea to trade him for a second round pick. Then again Shanon Sharpe was productive all the way through his career which finally ended when he was 35.

Rebuilding is about making tough decisions going forward. If we're committed to a rebuild then I say we strongly consider dealing Cooley for a second round pick.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=freddyg12;768828]We've had 1 offseason w/Allen & Shan, do you think they "overpaid" anybody? They didn't sign AH, that was on Vinny's watch. They just brought in reasonable contracts this year & a no. of undrafted players or guys recently cut by other teams, e.g. Torain, Armstrong, Lichtensteiger.

While I expect that we'll be busy in free agency due to the needs of the team & the no. of good players availalbe, I expect Allen to keep the signing bonuses in check, that's what he's known for. For the really good free agents I expect deals like McNabb's; potential big $ but an easy out for the team if it doesn't go well.[/quote]

well they over paid in the form of draft picks for both mcnabb and brown.... and they bought in bums like galloway, larry johnson, roydell williams, a scrub nose tackle, carriker, hicks and licktenstiger (sp). so as far as i'm concerned shanahan and allen have done a terrible job and right now i have no faith in either of them.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Buster;768772]Yeah,.the rebuilding process started when Vinny was canned and Allen was brought in. I don't know why so many people won't admit it.

[B]I knew this would be a transition/rebuliding year, with more success in year #2.[/B]


Of course, I had blindly optimistic hopes for the team...I always do as a true fan...but there was a LOT to fix with a 4-12 team with no offensive line whatsoever...more than could be fixed in a single year.

We've made a lot more progress than our record shows. I'm a bit worried about the defensive scheme, but individuals have played well on defense. The 4-3 to 3-4 move is rarely smooth.[/quote]

I disagree cause if they truly thought that then why give philly two picks for mcnabb? and two more picks for brown? they wanted to win now.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=skinsfan69;770259]well they over paid in the form of draft picks for both mcnabb and brown.... and they bought in bums like galloway, larry johnson, roydell williams, a scrub nose tackle, carriker, hicks and licktenstiger (sp). so as far as i'm concerned shanahan and allen have done a terrible job and right now i have no faith in either of them.[/quote]

We gave up one pick for Brown and a pick, not multiple picks for Brown. Give him one more offseason to get fully healthy. Guys like Galliway, LJ, and Roydell were short term relatively cheap solutions while the Torains, Austins, and Kellys of the team develop/get healthy. Carriker is quietly solid, but will probably never be someone who gets respect from fans. He's young though and cost us almost nothing to acquire. kory l is also quite young and cost basically nothing to acquire

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=skinsfan69;770259]well they over paid in the form of draft picks for both mcnabb and brown.... and they bought in bums like galloway, larry johnson, roydell williams, a scrub nose tackle, carriker, hicks and licktenstiger (sp). so as far as i'm concerned shanahan and allen have done a terrible job and right now i have no faith in either of them.[/quote]

Carriker has actually been a nice find. Maybe not dominant but such is the nature of being a 3-4 DE not named Seymour or Smith. Kory L also has been pretty decent and should be a solid starter for the next few years.

I don't think people realize this but building an O-Line is a constant process and in order to feed that process you can't afford to use 1st and 2nd round picks every year to fuel it otherwise you're doing a huge disservice to the rest of your team.

The best lines usually have at most two first day draft picks and then supplement the rest of the line with late round draft picks and free agents. Our inability to find those late round role players has been our Achilles heel, in part because we haven't even tried to draft anyone to begin with.

The only real priority on the line these days is center. Rabach has to go. Why he hasn't been benched is beyond me but his inability to stop himself from getting pushed back has become a huge liability. Look at this key play against the Bucs. Want to know why Torrain had to go east-west instead of north south. Because Rabach was literally pushed into him.
[IMG]http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad93/CapsXXVI/Rabach.png[/IMG]

So many of Shanahan's best lineman have been late round picks. Late being 4th round and better. We need to realize that fixing the line isn't going to come from binging in the first and second round on offensive lineman but rather identifying talent later in the draft and creating depth all around. Hopefully we've already started with Cook and Capers.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SmootSmack;770269]We gave up one pick for Brown and a pick, not multiple picks for Brown. Give him one more offseason to get fully healthy. Guys like Galliway, LJ, and Roydell were short term relatively cheap solutions while the Torains, Austins, and Kellys of the team develop/get healthy. Carriker is quietly solid, but will probably never be someone who gets respect from fans. He's young though and cost us almost nothing to acquire. kory l is also quite young and cost basically nothing to acquire[/quote]
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[SIZE=3][B]SIR[/B][/SIZE], your.....logic based rebuttal and debate founded in fact have NO place here!