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[quote=saden1;783110]That and the fact that excluding groups rarely works...see the exclusion of Ba'ath party in Iraq and Taliban in Afghanistan. You want them to have a voice even if you dont agree with them...unlike al qada they can at least play political ball.[/quote]
So you think the Taliban should have a say in Afghanistan government? What your doing then is recognizing them because of their violence. Why not just let the prisoners run the jail.

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first, those types of extremist parties developed because they were not included in the process. They, and segments of the population, get alienated thus creating some of the radical opposition we see in the ME this day.

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[quote=firstdown;783139]So you think the Taliban should have a say in Afghanistan government? What your doing then is recognizing them because of their violence. Why not just let the prisoners run the jail.[/quote]

Clearly the violent sections should be held out to whatever extent possible, however, by including all groups in discussions you offer the possibility of co-opting the extreme parties base of support. The majority of people will not look for a revolutionary party when they feel their basic concerns and beliefs are being respected.

There will be a section that will back out on their own, but they should be made to make that decision, thus alienating some of their less extreme supporters who want to try and work things out through a process.

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[URL="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/"]
Saudis told Obama to back Mubarak[/URL]

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Honestly I didn't expect this:

[QUOTE]BreakingNews Breaking News
Two sources inside Egypt president's office say that Mubarak will step down tonight , VP Omar Suleiman will take over as leader - NBC
[/QUOTE]

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Yep, it's official.

[url=http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/02/military-vows-free-election-offers-conditional-end-to-emergency-law/1]Live coverage: Mubarak resigns, hands power to the military -[/url]

[QUOTE]Update at 11:08 a.m. ET: Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators erupted in jubilation in Tahrir Square as vice president Omar Suleiman announces that President Mubarak has resigned and called on the army to "run the affairs of the country."[/QUOTE]

What's the lesson learned here? When negotiating, DO NOT back down too early.

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Jerry Sloan, Hosni Mubarak, who will resign tomorrow? These things happen in threes, don't they?

What a remarkable thing to watch right now.

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I heard talk of a Warpath rebellion maybe calling for the resignation of a certain Diva Mod on this board -- but I doubt it will go very far

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;783993]I heard talk of a Warpath rebellion maybe calling for the resignation of a certain Diva Mod on this board -- but I doubt it will go very far[/quote]

Yeah I don't think Gmanc is going to be resigning any time soon

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[quote=firstdown;781662]Well then maybe Bush was right when he said after the middle east sees what freedom looks like it will spread. That was pretty much his theme in his second term. HMMMMMM

[URL="http://edition.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/26/bush/"]CNN.com - Bush expounds on theme of freedom - Jan 26, 2005[/URL][/quote]


I guess Bush was correct back in 2005.

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[quote=SmootSmack;783990]Jerry Sloan, Hosni Mubarak, who will resign tomorrow? These things happen in threes, don't they?

What a remarkable thing to watch right now.[/quote]

Yeah it's pretty wild over there right now. Amazing images on the TV.

I hope peaceful democracy ends up prevailing in Egypt. This is a huge deal in the Middle East and the world moving forward.

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[quote=firstdown;783996]I guess Bush was correct back in 2005.[/quote]

I hope he was, but this is a very tenuous time for Egypt. As was stated in history, the revolution consumes its own. We need good leadership from [U]this[/U] administration to help Egypt travel a peaceful path. Hopefully, we and the world, get it.

FD, will you be quoting Bush if this revolution leads to Egypt being a terrorist bastion, or another Iran? Seems a little early to say "Mission Accomplished" (Bush reference intended)

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Is handing Political Power over to the Military really granting the people of Egypt freedom? It sounds like Martial Law to me.

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Agreed Angry. Although, the military has seemed to take an appropriately patient approach in this case. Let's hope it's a good thing, and they do truly lead to positive changes. It could easily set up another power regime. I guess the only good thing is that the military knows that we are "good" friends financially, as opposed to a complete overthrow by a group that looks at Iran as their best friends in the area.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;784000]I hope he was, but this is a very tenuous time for Egypt. As was stated in history, the revolution consumes its own. We need good leadership from [U]this[/U] administration to help Egypt travel a peaceful path. Hopefully, we and the world, get it.

FD,[B] will you be quoting Bush if this revolution leads to Egypt being a terrorist bastion, or another Iran?[/B] Seems a little early to say "Mission Accomplished" (Bush reference intended)[/quote]

No, of course not. If that happens then its Obama's fault. Lets be real here.

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[quote=Angry;784002]Is handing Political Power over to the Military really granting the people of Egypt freedom? It sounds like Martial Law to me.[/quote]

On the money. It will be interesting to see if and how the military creates a democratic regime or if Egypt will be a military dictatorship.

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There is no alternative to momentary military stewardship...the ruling party isn't much of a choice and there aren't any alternative opposition party to speak of capable of maintaining order. Should be interesting to see how this all shakes out but I have faith in the Egyptian people.

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lol @ fd. Hey at least you are honest.

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[quote=firstdown;783996]I guess Bush was correct back in 2005.[/quote]

Back in 2005, Bush was justifying his actions in Iraq, nothing more and nothing less. However, Bush did encourage Jordan's King Abdullah II to take more steps towards democracy. Although I don't know if he send that same message to Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

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[quote=Ruhskins;784048]Back in 2005, [B]Bush was justifying his actions in Iraq, nothing more and nothing less. [/B]However, Bush did encourage Jordan's King Abdullah II to take more steps towards democracy. Although I don't know if he send that same message to Egypt or Saudi Arabia.[/quote]

Don't twist his words. What he said is what he said and if democracy does spread in the middle east you have to give him some credit.

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This is awesome. When people come together the things they can do. Peace be with Egypt..

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[quote=firstdown;784052]Don't twist his words. What he said is what he said and if democracy does spread in the middle east you have to give him some credit.[/quote]

But not necessarily what he said in that article and anything related to Iraq. Once again, I give Bush more credit what he said Jordan's King Abdullah II, in regards to spreading democracy in the Middle East.

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[quote=Angry;784002]Is handing Political Power over to the Military really granting the people of Egypt freedom? It sounds like Martial Law to me.[/quote]

Well it is better than handing over power to their V.P.

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From what I read, the masses dont trust any of the cabinet so maybe the military is a decent go between until they can have a proper election. I think it could go well as long as some aspiring general doesnt get too much of the goodies and refuse to let go.

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To his credit, George W. Bush was promoting his Freedom Agenda until his last days in office, as he was moving towards a policy to put more pressure on Mubarak to end his repressive government. Funny, I wonder had Bush seen this coming would he had released his book two months later.

But this day isn't about Bush, Obama, or anyone else in the White House. This day belongs to the great people of Egypt.

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[quote=12thMan;784066]To his credit, George W. Bush was promoting his Freedom Agenda until his last days in office, as he was moving towards a policy to put more pressure on Mubarak to end his repressive government. Funny, I wonder had Bush seen this coming would he had released his book two months later.

But this day isn't about Bush, Obama, or anyone else in the White House. This day belongs to the great people of Egypt.[/quote]

It will be very interesting to see how this all works out over the next few months. Who has control over all the finances and money in Egypt. Will the military leaders get in a pissing match between each other for control. We could have a chance to watch a democracy form or it could become a civil war and blood bath.

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[quote=firstdown;784069]It will be very interesting to see how this all works out over the next few months. Who has control over all the finances and money in Egypt. Will the military leaders get in a pissing match between each other for control. We could have a chance to watch a democracy form or it could become a civil war and blood bath.[/quote]

Good point. Let's hope that the military leaders have the same desire for democracy as the rest of the Egyptian people do.

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One real story in this is the social media and internet (thus Al Gore now can say he freed the Egyptian a la Moses). Here is an interesting article on the Chinese dilemma of the web:
[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110211/wl_time/09171204817100]New Challenges to Beijing's Control of the Internet - Yahoo! News[/url]

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[quote=saden1;784019]There is no alternative to momentary military stewardship...the ruling party isn't much of a choice and there aren't any alternative opposition party to speak of capable of maintaining order. Should be interesting to see how this all shakes out but I have faith in the Egyptian people.[/quote]
Agreed. What other choice was there? The only reason Mubarak hung on as long as he did was because the alternatives were limited

There is limited political infrastructure so it will take some time for this to sort out.

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[quote=firstdown;784052]Don't twist his words. What he said is what he said and if democracy does spread in the middle east you have to give him some credit.[/quote]

Are Iraq and Afghanistan democracies? You cannot coerce the birth of a democracy. It has always been spontaneous and the only people that deserve credit are the people who decide to be free.

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Is Algeria next?

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[quote=SmootSmack;784145]Is Algeria next?[/quote]

One can only hope.

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Couple of good links on the Egypt & Iran situations. Let's hope and pray it's folks like these who win out and establish peaceful, productive democracies in both countries.

[URL="http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/14/egyptian-doctor-cared-fox-news-reporter-vows-old-egypt-gone/"]Egyptian Doctor Who Cared for Fox News Reporter Vows 'Old Egypt' is Gone - FoxNews.com[/URL]

[URL="http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/02/14/prince-reza-iran-will-be-free/"]Prince Reza: Iran will be Free « Liveshots[/URL]

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Lets try and get this thread back on topic:

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/02/14/false-toes-mummies-helped-ancient-egyptians-walk/?test=latestnews]FoxNews.com - Mummy's False Toes Helped Ancient People Walk Like an Egyptian[/url]

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[QUOTE]BreakingNews Breaking News
Two Libyan fighter jets land unexpectedly in Malta, witness say - Reuters
[/QUOTE]

Amazing that Egypt was as peaceful as it was. Not so much in the rest of the mideast

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I'm updating the thread title to reflect Yemen, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, etc.

The situation in Libya is stunning. I'm sure many others here remember when Ghadafi was considered enemy no. 1 back in the 80s

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/24/libya.protests/index.html?hpt=T1]Report: Libyan capital deserted; opposition seizes major city - CNN.com[/url]

This all, in my opinion, is remarkable to witness. To this day, the most amazing world event in my lifetime (perhaps not including 9/11) was the fall of the Soviet Empire. To think in 1983 I'm watching The Day After and less than 7 years later there's no longer a Soviet Union (and so many other countries I grew up knowing) was just amazing to me, and I'm including the fall of the Berlin Wall to the Yugoslav wars in all this. What's happening today is almost on par with that

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It's a fascinating time for sure

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This is going on, the economy is not very good, unemployment is high, price of gas is going to $4 to $5, and Obama is worried about gay rights.

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It's amazing how everyone just basically got up the balls to express how dissatisfied they are with their current regimes. In those countries it's damn scary to speak out, you can get killed for it. But en masse, they're doing it.

Just goes to show how the people there are not at all different from us (except for the religious nutjobs). They just want to be heard and to be free.

Social media played a role too. Good job Zuckerberg.

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Best part about the viva la revolution is Al Qaida and Ole Bin Landen are pissed.

A. They arent playing any part in it
B. These protest and revolutions are literred with democratic and power to the people rhetoric. Not the usuall military, violent regime changes people are used to in that region. They are really pissed about that.