Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=FRPLG;811945]Yes.

If the owners did include substantial provisions not agreed upon then I retract everything. The should be lined up and shot proverbially.[/quote]

I don't know the full specific details, but as I understand it, there were some elements that were not agreed upon that the owners inserted as if a done deal, and others elements that the players feel need to be agreed upon that were not included.

I mean this is not the same situation, of course. But when we negotiate contracts with the NFL (and other leagues) it's not at all uncommon to see something slid into a proposed agreement at the last minute. It's common practice to try to get that one last piece in.

But I think the big thing here is the NFLPA doesn't have the entire agreement yet and this is a deal that impacts the next decade so I believe they are making sure they thoroughly review everything.

I believe by no later than Saturday the players will approve. But there's as much a PR play here by both sides. Owners are saying "Deal is done!" and players are saying "Well, maybe we'll agree to this. But we want everyone to know it's not an ideal proposal" As in "we're making sacrifices for the sake of the sport"

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=wilsowilso;811946]This is about to get ugly.

Hope not, but that's my prediction.[/quote]


this

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=FRPLG;811930]Yes. They hired someone to negotiate a CBA for them. They should rubber stamp it plain and simple or fire Smith. Either they trust him or not. They certainly don't need to come in at the last minute and derail the whole thing. Their asses needed to be involved to be able to say anything in my opinion.[/quote]
so the owners shouldn't care what RG negotiated for them, just stamp on it ?

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=tryfuhl;811955]so the owners shouldn't care what RG negotiated for them, just stamp on it ?[/quote]

moreso, they should have kept up with it and made sure the terms were staying within acceptable limits. And I think it's clear that the owners were all kept in a basic loop of knowledge, so that any major issues were worked out and agreed on in timely fashions.

If they did that, then this vote should have been fairly simple, as opposed to 32 reps (or 1900 players) having to read a 600 or so page document.

When you purchase or sell a house, you may give your realtor or attorney basic powers, but you still expect to be made aware of any progress that is being made. That's just due diligence.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Greg_A_Bedard Greg A. Bedard
by FO_DougFarrar
High-ranking NFLPA source told me 45 min ago: "Tell everyone to calm down. Haven't come this far to derail a deal."


Hope this is true

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Good breakdown by Andrew Brandt

[url=http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/We-have-a-proposed-deal.html]We have a (proposed) deal | National Football Post[/url]

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

I'm slightly confused.....

During this whole process the owners had Goodell to negotiate terms for them, different owners sat in on meetings at different times, yesterday when the owners showed up and had their meeting I'd guess each owner was given the proposal to peruse over night and I'd presume they talked about the issue's and changes today.... then voted on it.

The players had D.Smith negotiating for them, and just like the owners the players had different player reps sitting in on meetings at different times, no different then how the owners handled their proposal meeting and vote the players should have done the same. Yet we get word that one player rep didn't get the proposal until today? that they want time to digest the material? and then there is " the owners are trying to push us into a corner" and " the owners are trying to slip/sneak items into the CBA"? WTF?

The best one was.... ”We hadn’t even seen the deal the owners voted on today." Is it not the same effing proposal the players are supposed to be looking at and digesting just like the owners? What games are the players playing?

Then the players mentioned they were concerned about how they will become a Union again?
#1- that has nothing to do with the owners.
#2- the NFLPA* should have already been making plans for that prior to now.
#3- they don't have to wait until all the players are back at their facilities to sign some idiot card in order to become a union. Their simply trying to make sure they have the majority vote to become a Union again, so all the "Reps" should be making contact with all the players from their organizations with the simple question "do you want to become part of a Union again?" If each "Rep" returns with a majority vote of yes then reinstate the damn union and the "Reps" should be able to agree to the proposal.

Lockout can be lifted, when the players report next week the NFLPA can request the players to sign the stupid card for accountability, and all parties can wait for the "Final Draft" so they can sign them. If everyone is going to have to wait till the "Final Draft" is typed up and signed by the owners before the players will vote and sign then you can figure on the season not starting until Oct. or Nov.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;811916]If all that's lost out of this is the HOF game, it's a win for all.[/quote]


...except the people going "into" the Hall.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

This was the most encouraging thing I saw last night:

[url=http://realredskins.com/2011/07/jeremy-jarmon-gets-it/]Jeremy Jarmon gets it | Rich Tandler's Real Redskins[/url]

If you don't follow Jarmon on Twitter, you're missing out. The guy is really smart. May not help him make the roster in the end, but the NFLPA needs more leadership like him.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

I feel bad for the players, who obviously couldn't have voted on a document they haven't read. But the NFLPA pays its lawyers to do the same thing the NFL pays its lawyers for. Only, as far as I can tell, both sides lawyers hammered out these solutions in record time, while the NFLPAs group has consistently kept the people they work for in the dark.

These allegations of the Owners making a power play on the Players are unfortunate, but are only possible because the players couldn't wrap up their end of the bargain on Wednesday. And I don't think it was for lack of desire. I think the NFLPA did a piss poor job getting the 32 player reps adequately prepared to vote on a deal.

I fully expect the players to be the "bigger man" and do what it takes to bring us football, but that wouldn't have had to happen if their leadership had just done their jobs starting last Saturday and expedited the process of a deal. But there were just too many other motives out there for the NFLPA non-players.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=GTripp0012;811974]I feel bad for the players, who obviously couldn't have voted on a document they haven't read. But the NFLPA pays its lawyers to do the same thing the NFL pays its lawyers for. Only, as far as I can tell, both sides lawyers hammered out these solutions in record time, while the NFLPAs group has consistently kept the people they work for in the dark.

These allegations of the Owners making a power play on the Players are unfortunate, but are only possible because the players couldn't wrap up their end of the bargain on Wednesday. And I don't think it was for lack of desire. I think the NFLPA did a piss poor job getting the 32 player reps adequately prepared to vote on a deal.

I fully expect the players to be the "bigger man" and do what it takes to bring us football, but that wouldn't have had to happen if their leadership had just done their jobs starting last Saturday and expedited the process of a deal.[B] But there were just too many other motives out there for the NFLPA non-players.[/B][/quote]
What other motives are you talking about G?

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Also keep in mind that the Raiders abstaining is in no way different than the players abstaining on Thursday night, except in the obvious: that the Raiders have no legal ability to hold up a deal. There would seem to be comparable dissent on the owners side to that of the players side.

But because 1) the NFL lawyers actually did their jobs, and 2) the NFL has proven far better at controlling negative PR leaks, the players side looks like more of an obstacle than the owners proved to be. I really don't think that is actually the case.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Hog1;811975]What other motives are you talking about G?[/quote][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/21/recertification-delay-is-a-red-herring/]Recertification delay is a red herring | ProFootballTalk[/url]

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/21/reluctance-to-reconstitute-union-is-another-red-herring/]Reluctance to reconstitute union is another red herring | ProFootballTalk[/url]

[url=http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2011/07/reports_mankins.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter]Reports: Mankins, Jackson settlement an issue - Extra Points - Boston.com[/url]

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Thanx!

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

The NFL PR machine is almost as good as the GOP/DEM PR machine. They agree to a deal THEY come up with, and act as if was something the players also agreed on and that they are the ones holding this up. The worst part is, people believe it...lol I guess that's why people keep voting in the same cats that continue to feed them bullshit at election time as well. /facepalm



What the **** is up with Al Davis? Hasn't this douchebag voted against each CBA agreement that has come up? Abstaining? Why can't the NFL just revoke the guys franchise from him much like MLB has done with the McCourts?

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Hog1;811975]What other motives are you talking about G?[/quote]

One man. JEFF KESSLER. He's either an evil genius that the NFLPA will keep around forever or an ego-maniacal obstructionist hell bent on cultivating an image as the next Marvin Miller. So hell-bent he'd kill football in the name of self-aggrandizement. My guess is when all is said and done he and De Smith have a little internal battle with the loser leaving town. Unless of course they've just been playing good cop bad cop.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=GTripp0012;811973]This was the most encouraging thing I saw last night:

[URL="http://realredskins.com/2011/07/jeremy-jarmon-gets-it/"]Jeremy Jarmon gets it | Rich Tandler's Real Redskins[/URL]

If you don't follow Jarmon on Twitter, you're missing out. The guy is really smart. May not help him make the roster in the end, but the NFLPA needs more leadership like him.[/quote]

Nice to see there are some level heads out there.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;811961]Good breakdown by Andrew Brandt

[URL="http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/We-have-a-proposed-deal.html"]We have a (proposed) deal | National Football Post[/URL][/quote]

Good read.

This is just one of the final steps of the process. Nobody said it was going to be smooth or easy. I think once the players have some time to step back from the ledge today and start digesting the deal, cooler heads will prevail.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=GTripp0012;811973]This was the most encouraging thing I saw last night:

[url=http://realredskins.com/2011/07/jeremy-jarmon-gets-it/]Jeremy Jarmon gets it | Rich Tandler's Real Redskins[/url]

If you don't follow Jarmon on Twitter, you're missing out. The guy is really smart. May not help him make the roster in the end, but the NFLPA needs more leadership like him.[/quote]

Yes he does seem to get it. I think the player reps were expecting to be able to show up and take a copy of the final product home and have several days to go over it with a fine tooth comb and then get back together to have their questions answered. I think they got offended when after the owners got together that the owners wanted yet another concession from the players, but do they realize that's he negotiation process? That's why the two negotiators had phone contact so if either party didn't like something or wanted something added they could immediately call each other and pass it along to be given to either the owners or player reps.


I think what ticks me off more is the players acting stupid like they didn't know or have a clue that they would have to become a Union again prior to signing the new CBA. The players should have had a plan, a plan on how to reach all 1900 plus players in a hurry to get their approval to re unionize and it sounds like they didn't or they were hoping to push the owners into a corner by making them lift the lockout first then the players could show up at the facilities to vote which does sound easy but is also BS because it puts the owners in a spot if the players decide they do not want to re unionize and the doors were opened back up.

And then there is the whole idea that they can't vote be aide they need time to look everything over. Did they not participate in the meetings? Not everyone but neither did the owners and they went over he material and voted.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

If any average Joe can follow this on the internet, I am sure the majority of players should have been able to. That being said, I think both sides did quite a lot towards the end to keep this going (the owners throwing the right for first refusal and from the players side the whole settlement situation with the Brady case). I think at this point the players rep need to show leadership and just get everyone to vote on this and move on.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Here's a little nugget that I think is pertinent. THE PLAYERS DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

There are plenty of smart well-intentioned football players but none of them have any real experience in actual labor negotiations or union management. They hired someone to lead their union who was supposed to mitigate this fact. Hell that's the point of hiring professional labor personnel...they know what they're doing. Unfortunately I think De Smith has proven again that he doesn't have the head for this job. The NFPLA* let this get out of control when they didn't properly manage expectations and the situation on their side to make sure everything was in order to move forward with the process in the proper way.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Ruhskins;812000]If any average Joe can follow this on the internet, I am sure the majority of players should have been able to. That being said, I think both sides did quite a lot towards the end to keep this going (the owners throwing the right for first refusal and from the players side the whole settlement situation with the Brady case). I think at this point the players rep need to show leadership and just get everyone to vote on this and move on.[/quote]

I use to think player reps were always the level-headed "smart" guys. This has shown me that isn't always the case. But whatever...it's time for everyone to put on the big-boy pants and finish this thing.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=NC_Skins;811981]The NFL PR machine is almost as good as the GOP/DEM PR machine. [B]They agree to a deal THEY come up with, and act as if was something the players also agreed on [/B]and that they are the ones holding this up. The worst part is, people believe it...lol I guess that's why people keep voting in the same cats that continue to feed them bullshit at election time as well. /facepalm[/quote]

I am still waiting to see a link or something concrete that shows the owners in some way, altered the terms that had been agreed upon with NFLPA leadership or inserted language that was either contrary to that agreement or inserted terms that were simply never contemplated. Show me the link as to the specifics parts of the agreement that "THEY come up with, and act as if was something the players also agreed on". I haven't seen it. I have heard allegations and diatribe and read Vonnie Holliday's tweet, but nothing referring to the specifics parts of the proposal that the players did not agree to. Please show me exactly what you are talking about by referencing the Proposal's terms.

Ahhh, but the owners are constantly evil and have money so it MUST be there fault, evidence is simply not needed to prove that immutable point. <sigh>

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=FRPLG;812002]I use to think player reps were always the level-headed "smart" guys. This has shown me that isn't always the case. But whatever...it's time for everyone to put on the big-boy pants and finish this thing.[/quote]

I get that 1600 players want a chance to see the final product and understand it before agreeing to it, but that's what the players' reps should have been doing all along so that the players can say "okay, how was this issue finally resolved? How was that issue finally resolved?" And get there answers quickly. It's not the players I blame as much as their reps and the NFLPA legal team. It's as if the legal team didn't keep the reps involved and the reps were certainly not communicating with the players. Now, the NFLPA leadership is expecting the players to understand four months of negotiating in one day and to make an informed decision. Bush league.

If I was a player (1) I would probably been more informed on the progress and bugged my rep for substantive information along the way; and (2) I would be deeply pissed at my rep if what he had been telling me up to know didn't match what I was hearing now.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Time to go to work. Let's get it!

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;812003]I am still waiting to see a link or something concrete that shows the owners in some way, altered the terms that had been agreed upon or inserted language that was either contrary to that agreement or was simply never discussed. Show me the link as to the specifics parts of the agreement that "THEY come up with, and act as if was something the players also agreed on". I haven't seen it. I have heard allegations and diatribe and read Vonnie Holliday's tweet, but nothing referring to the specifics parts of the proposal that the players did not agree to.

Ahhh, but the owners are constantly evil and have money so it MUST be there fault, evidence is simply not needed to prove that immutable point. <sigh>[/quote]

I don't think you'll find that. I think the issue is the players like the agreement but they have to poll all 1900+ players, in other words the players must vote to be a union again. Then they can vote on accepting the new CBA. So technically the players are not ready, but it is their own mistake for not having found a way to quickly get their vote ie; a simple e-mail from each player using employee numbers or something.

The issue of the owners adding things I think is the owners demanding the players reform prior to being allowed to show up at team facilities. I think the players were hoping the owners would take all the risk and open their doors and them allow the players to come together to vote on reforming then the player rep could send the vote to whomever and with the majority vote then the player reps could vote on the new CBA as a union. But the owners don't want to take the risk and I don't blame them.

As far as the other issue's like injury settlements that's all arguments a union would have to argue which can't take place until the players reform.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;811895]HOF game is cancelled[/quote]
FYI - For those going to Canton - the game is canceled but the tailgating party is still on.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

The real culprit here is Twitter. Everyone's getting up in arms, even some players, publicly minute by minute for the world to see for what is just a standard part of the process. We're talking about a 10 year deal with no out clause. Of course, they should take their time to review it. Sorry if everyone wanted the players just to sign off on it right away...but maybe they're not as stupid as so many believe.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

NFL network just talking about it saying basically ther is 2 big issues...

1- is the CBA which the players and owners don't have issues with.

And

2- how to settle the law suits and reform as a union "legally".

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Now personally I think the NFLPA* should already have had a plan for all this and or atleast talked about by their lawyers. Why do I get the feeling the players had no intention of reforming and D.Smith never informed the players or their reps that the negotiations were going forward as if they will reform as a union? Then all the reps come back and are upset about the whole idea of reforming and dropping all the lawsuits.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

I'm not going to take anything from Twitter seriously. Most of the guys do not know the details and are just making initial emotional reactions public.

They're just making fools of themselves AND possibly hindering getting the thing done. I can't wait until Twitter dies.



Silence, Vonnie Holliday.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;812009]The real culprit here is Twitter. Everyone's getting up in arms, even some players, publicly minute by minute for the world to see for what is just a standard part of the process. We're talking about a 10 year deal with no out clause. [B]Of course, they should take their time to review it. Sorry if everyone wanted the players just to sign off on it right away...but maybe they're not as stupid as so many believe.[/B][/quote]

If they are reading the document for the first time, well that's ridiculous and on the leadership.

If they are being given guidance and making sure they understand how the main points were finally resolved fine. Even then, the majority of that review should have been prepped by the player reps.

Yes. Take the time to make an informed decision. However, - don't wait until the last minute to become informed about 3 months of negotiations.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;812009]The real culprit here is Twitter. Everyone's getting up in arms, even some players, publicly minute by minute for the world to see for what is just a standard part of the process. We're talking about a 10 year deal with no out clause. Of course, they should take their time to review it. Sorry if everyone wanted the players just to sign off on it right away...but maybe they're not as stupid as so many believe.[/quote]

I agree on the Twitter thing. It has been the real unique culprit in this situation that no one was rpepared to deal with.

I don't think the players are very savvy when it comes to this stuff at all. In general that is.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;812015]If they are reading the document for the first time, well that's ridiculous and on the leadership.

If they are being given guidance and making sure they understand how the main points were finally resolved fine. Even then, the majority of that review should have been prepped by the player reps.

[B]Yes. Take the time to make an informed decision. However, - don't wait until the last minute to become informed about 3 months of negotiations.[/B][/quote]

This.

They had/have a responsibility to be prepared to make decisions as effectively and efficiently as possible. It seems neither the players as a whole nor their leadership took the proper steps to allow for that. If this CBA is such a big deal to the players, as it should be and they have said it is, they should have been taking the whole process more seriously and professionally. Honestly I think they have repeatedly been made to look bad throughout this entire ordeal because they allow the NFL to "out-professional" them on a consistent basis.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

It's best to just avoid Twitter at times like this.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;812018]It's best to just avoid Twitter at times like this.[/quote]

Yeah not a lot of owners getting on Twitter bitching about the players.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;812009]The real culprit here is Twitter. Everyone's getting up in arms, even some players, publicly minute by minute for the world to see for what is just a standard part of the process. We're talking about a 10 year deal with no out clause. Of course, they should take their time to review it. Sorry if everyone wanted the players just to sign off on it right away...but maybe they're not as stupid as so many believe.[/quote]

Totally understand the want to look over the proposal, but one would think the owners would feel the same way. So is it the owners voted for something they have not looked over or is it the players reps failed to stay a part of this whole process and really have no clue what's in the CBA and want to look it over?

I think it's funny how they using the term that the proposal is being forced down their throats? No it's not, if they stayed connected to DSmith and aware of the negotiations then they would have been able to go into the Thursday meeting and quickly go over the issues and vote on if they would agree to it. Plus how hard is it to get one of their lawyers they hired to go to that meeting and explain the verbiage and why it is the way it is?

Instead they go to a meeting totally unprepared, they act like they are unaware of what's in the proposal, complain that they need time to read it and digest it, and complain about things being added and forced down their throats.

Yet the all the owners show up talk for a few hours then meet the next day for 8+ hours over the same CBA proposal and all were able to read, digest, and talk about it then vote on it.

I hope the player reps were not planning on taking the proposal back to each player and letting them read it and digest it and make an informed decision, because then ther won't be a season.

There is two simple complications
1- do they want to be a union again. The reps can contact their teammates for the answer.

2- does the union agree to the new CBA.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;812018]It's best to just avoid Twitter at times like this.[/quote]

That's why I don't even have it. Trouble can so easily lie just beneath the tweet.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;812009]The real culprit here is Twitter. Everyone's getting up in arms, even some players, publicly minute by minute for the world to see for what is just a standard part of the process. We're talking about a 10 year deal with no out clause. Of course, they should take their time to review it. Sorry if everyone wanted the players just to sign off on it right away...but maybe they're not as stupid as so many believe.[/quote]

I completely agree. I think it was wise to keep the negotiations process away from some of the Twitter-STUPID players.
The other one at fault here for some of the misdirected anger at the players is the NFL Network. They were constantly putting up on the screen the best case scenario calendar where NFL would be open by this weekend or Monday. Getting everyone excited. Now that it might take a little longer, some impatient frustrated rabid fans are blaming the players.

Lotus got it right in an earlier post on this thread,
" There are 32 owners, 1700 players. It makes sense that player ratification may take longer."

So doors won't be open on Monday. It might take a few more days or a week more. Big deal. The world will not end. Free agency will come soon. Just calm down.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

As I understand it, one major sticking point is the out clause. I don't know who's right here, but players expected the deal would have an out at 7 years; owners didn't include it.

Were the players right to expect it? I'm not sure

But overall, it's a misconception that the players were completely blind to the proposal. It's that the full proposal was just drafted yesterday or the day before, and it takes some time to digest every detail. And again, they should. Brown M & Ms.

Further, Goodell holding a press conference (and other owners talking about it as well), basically saying they have an agreement before the full proposal was sent to the players rubbed the players the wrong way. They felt it put PR pressure on them, and was an attempt to make them look like the bad guys