Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=30gut;917352][url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFXQJduBZg]Roy Helu and Evan Royster Rookie Highlights - YouTube[/url]

For Hightower Google:
Week 1: Redskins-28 Giants-14 - YouTube[/quote]

Wow, I don't think i watched royster in the season. His two runs in this video against the eagles are disgusting. I hope he is actually good and it wasn't just because it was a meaningless game against the worst tackling secondary in the league.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

I am so happy they brought back Timmy .. dude is all heart and will serve a great mentor to Helu/Roy ... it's scary how many smart decisions this football team is making ... having the 3 headed monster of Tim, Roy, and Evan is such a luxury. Not to mention Young at FB. Man I can't wait for season .. and I can't wait until MADDEN comes out

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

I think Helu is the starter this season and breaks 1,000 yards

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

If there was a RB skills list what would the main attributes be?


Size, Speed, Quickness, Toughness, Lateral Agility, Cutback ability, Vision, Catching, Pass Pro, Route Running, Durability, Power(break tackles), Juke (make people miss in space)

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=30gut;917675]If there was a RB skills list what would the main attributes be?


Size, Speed, Quickness, Toughness, Lateral Agility, Cutback ability, Vision, Catching, Pass Pro, Route Running, Durability, Power(break tackles), Juke (make people miss in space)[/quote]in our scheme i'd have to say vision and cutback ability

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=skinster;917649]Wow, I don't think i watched royster in the season. His two runs in this video against the eagles are disgusting. I hope he is actually good and it wasn't just because it was a meaningless game against the worst tackling secondary in the league.[/quote]

He also tore up the Vikings.

He's legit.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

i like tim if i had to go with one but what i really like is just picking athletic relatively cheap players to plug in .. burst of speed, one cut guys who can hang onto the balll .. i feel like tim gets the edge b/c he can catch out of the backfield and did well enough picking up blitzers on pass plays .. helu and royster could very well do that to just havent had as much of a chance to show it.

but i love the by committee approach and the production. tim went down, no prob we didnt miss a beat.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Helu. Period. Young burner who can take a hit, vision will only get better. He did that good his ROOKIE season, and has a solid work ethic. Helu FTW.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Looking back on it, Helu could have rushed for over 1,000 yards had he been inserted into the lineup earlier in the season. It took Hightower to go down with a season ending injury for Helu to get a bulk load of the carries. But based on Royster's yard per carry average last season, I'd say he's the best of the three Redskin running backs.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Here's how I rate the backs on each skillset:
Rated on a point scale (3-1) where 3 is the [I][B]highest[/B][/I]

Helu......Hightower..........Royster
3................2....................1.......Size
3................2....................1.......Speed
2................1....................3.......Quickness
3................2....................1.......Toughness
2................1....................3.......Lateral Agility
2................1....................3.......Cutback ability
3................3....................3........Vision
3................2..................1(?)......Catching
2................3..................1(?)......Pass Pro
3................2..................1(?)......Route Running
2................1....................?........Durability
3................2....................1.......Power(break tackles/run through contact)
2................1....................3.......Juke (make people miss in space)
2................3.....................1.......Leadership/Locker room

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=30gut;917747]Here's how I rate the backs on each skillset:
Rated on a point scale (3-1) where 3 is the [I][B]highest[/B][/I]

Helu......Hightower..........Royster
3................2....................1.......Size
3................2....................1.......Speed
2................1....................3.......Quickness
3................2....................1.......Toughness
2................1....................3.......Lateral Agility
2................1....................3.......Cutback ability
3................3....................3........Vision
3................2..................1(?)......Catching
2................3..................1(?)......Pass Pro
3................2..................1(?)......Route Running
2................1....................?........Durability
3................2....................1.......Power(break tackles/run through contact)
2................1....................3.......Juke (make people miss in space)
2................3.....................1.......Leadership/Locker room[/quote]

I'm not sure if you mixed the names or ratings on this but some of this doesn't make sense. Size - they're all similar in height and weight. Royster is the tallest and Hightower weighs the most so Helu doesn't deserve a 3. Hightower should be more powerful than Helu.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=TexSkins;917757]I'm not sure if you mixed the names or ratings on this but some of this doesn't make sense. Size - they're all similar in height and weight. Royster is the tallest and Hightower weighs the most so Helu doesn't deserve a 3.[/quote]
The rankings are simply a categorized numerical breakdown of my opinion.
I wouldn't and don't expect universal or even small scale agreement.
I'm sure if you were to use the same format (and I would love to see it if you wanted to post it)
to rate the backs it would be different from mine.
But, that difference wouldn't compel me to state that your rankings 'don't make sense' or 'player doesn't deserve rating X' or 'player X should have ranking X'

But to answer your questions:
Sure the backs are similar in height and weight but they're not the [I][B]same[/B][/I].
Each person, I'm sure has their own view of ideal size for a RB.
And for me its a mix of their height/weight and their actual size in pads.
Helu is an inch shorter but only 3 pounds lighter then THT imo this makes him more compact and I think its apparent in how they look in pads.

Helu is 5-11/219
Hightower is 6'/222
Royster is 6'1/213

[quote]Hightower should be more powerful than Helu[/quote]
Maybe Hightower [I][B]should[/B][/I] be more powerful in your view.
But to my eye no RB on the team runs through contact better then Helu.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Stumbled onto more highlights:

[url=http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee321/Txredskins44/Cardinals%20vs%20Redskins%202011/?action=view&current=RoyHelusRuns.mp4]Cardinals vs Redskins 2011 :: RoyHelusRuns.mp4 video by Txredskins44 - Photobucket[/url]

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Helu without a doubt should be our #1. Now that we have a mobile weapon at QB.. Our Offense will pack so much speed.

He runs the Zone the best of the 3 IMO.. His hands out of the Backfield is also a nice addition to a already quick threat.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Helu, he has vision and speed which is deadly. Tim was avg at best with his measly ypc. Royster is still on the team?

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

If we're talking YPC Royster was the highest of the bunch.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

I envision Helu as a poor mans Ray Rice. I really hope he catches on.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Probably already said since were beyond 3 pages....

I've always thought:

Hightower- best all around. but can take it to the edge to spread defenses.
Helu- quick and elusive, shifty. finds holes and can make people miss tackles.
Royster- a between the tackle monster. can run over people. always + yrds.

But they picked up a new guy whom I think they are shifting to FB which I think will be more interesting. I think he will either be a decent blocker or punisher up the middle.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Ranked 16th in total yards but 26th in scoring. This must improve.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=CrustyRedskin;917792]Ranked 16th in total yards but 26th in scoring. This must improve.[/quote]

Hopefully our problems will be somewhat solved with RG3. I think defenses stacked the box knowing RG1 couldn't throw very far or accurate. Teams will challenge RG3 and hopefully get burned enough to decide putting more CB's in the back field will be better opening up more running lanes for our RB's.

Then there is the hope the OL knows it's assignments better and performs better.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=mredskins;917790]I envision Helu as a poor mans Ray Rice. I really hope he catches on.[/quote]I think Helu will catch on as the lead back eventually, his running style reminds me of a Matt Forte or Arian Foster.
Kinda upright and linear not a whole lot of shake but has smooth change of direction, makes use of a good jump cut and speed.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=30gut;917767]Stumbled onto more highlights:

[url=http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee321/Txredskins44/Cardinals%20vs%20Redskins%202011/?action=view&current=RoyHelusRuns.mp4]Cardinals vs Redskins 2011 :: RoyHelusRuns.mp4 video by Txredskins44 - Photobucket[/url][/quote]

I'm a Helu fan, but in some instances I think he loses his feet too quickly upon contact. In other instances he breaks tackles and keeps the legs churning.

Knowing he studies film and is dedicated as they come I think we'll see better consistency this season. I think he'll be our most productive back for years to come, barring the unforeseen.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=The Goat;917819] I think he'll be our most productive back for years to come, barring the unforeseen.[/quote]I think Helu emerges as the lead back this season, hopefully by week 1.

Now all we need to do is run the ball a little more....

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Playing with more leads will help the pass/run ratio

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

If only running the ball more was [I][B]just[/B][/I] about having the lead

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

No, but it sure would help.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/16/transcript-of-mike-shanahan-interview-on-pft-live/]Transcript of Redskins coach Mike Shanahan on PFT Live | ProFootballTalk[/url]

just read this today, but in reference to our RB situation when PFT ask Shanny about that this is what he said:

"You know, Tim Hightower did a great job for us before he got hurt in the fourth game last year. Roy Helu came in, and I thought he did an excellent job, showed his speed. He was able to play in first, second and third down. [B]You know, Evan Royster over the last five, six games of the season averaged almost six yards a carry[/B]. So we’ve got some guys who have got some playing experience, obviously with Helu and Royster going to the second year. You know, they’re excited about getting started. Tim is a natural leader, he came in and really impressed everybody with not only his football skills but his leadership skills as well, so we’ve got three experienced guys there. And then we have four guys in right now like Tristan Davis, Alfred Morris our draft choice, and Creer and Bailey, that we think we’ve got a little depth there and let guys fight for a position."


When it comes down to it folks, styles aside, its all about production at the RB spot. That "almost six yards a carry" is a stat apparently Shanny remembers well.

Hightower bringing the leadership is just great to hear especially with the younger RBs.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

What a turnaround from previous regimes, eh? Don't get me wrong I loved CP but it was always scary if he went down with Betts injury prone and really no other talent at the position.

I hope we run the ball a ton this season. It will help take pressure off Griffin and wear down defenses.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=Chico23231;918684]When it comes down to it folks, styles aside, its all about production at the RB spot. That "almost six yards a carry" is a stat apparently Shanny remembers well.

Hightower bringing the leadership is just great to hear especially with the younger RBs.[/quote]Production is certainly important but it obviously linked to the situation and talent around them.
Production has a context that ability does not.
Ability is all about the individual players attributes.
The framework of ability over production allows people to view Barry Sanders as the superior RB despite Emmit Smiths superior production.

If you think Evan Royster can maintain his 5.9 ypc per carry past his 56 total carries and into the 200+ carry ballpark then sure production trumps all.
But, keep in mind Earnest Graham on fewer then 50 carries has a 5.6 ypc.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=The Goat;918686]What a turnaround from previous regimes, eh? Don't get me wrong I loved CP but it was always scary if he went down with Betts injury prone and really no other talent at the position.

I hope we run the ball a ton this season. It will help take pressure off Griffin and wear down defenses.[/quote]

You take that back! Rock Cartwright was a monster!

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Rock Carwright 2005 ypc [I][B]7.4[/B][/I] on 27 carries

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Rock Cartwright was such a useful player. Unfortunately by the end, he was just a special teams ace on a team with about four other ST aces, and pretty poor special teams units.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=30gut;918707][B]Production is certainly important but it obviously linked to the situation and talent around them[/B].
Production has a context that ability does not.
Ability is all about the individual players attributes.
The framework of ability over production allows people to view Barry Sanders as the superior RB despite Emmit Smiths superior production.

If you think Evan Royster can maintain his 5.9 ypc per carry past his 56 total carries and into the 200+ carry ballpark then sure production trumps all.
But, keep in mind Earnest Graham on fewer then 50 carries has a 5.6 ypc.[/quote]

I kinda think that is really important, your point of context. the ability to work together with your oline, to work in sync for the most production. So Royster ability to gain those yards working well with the cogs at Oline is a positive right?

I remember watching Parcells talking about drafting RBs, YPC was his top indicator, didnt matter how it happed as long as the guy touched the ball and could be productive with it.

I think Royster drastically improved from the beginning to end of year, and I think that YPC was surprising, as well as impressive. If I had to put money on our starter next year, Royster would be the guy.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=Chico23231;918721]I kinda think that is really important, your point of context. the ability to work together with your oline, to work in sync for the most production. So Royster ability to gain those yards working well with the cogs at Oline is a positive right?

I remember watching Parcells talking about drafting RBs, YPC was his top indicator, didnt matter how it happed as long as the guy touched the ball and could be productive with it.

I think Royster drastically improved from the beginning to end of year, and I think that YPC was surprising, as well as impressive. If I had to put money on our starter next year, Royster would be the guy.[/quote]

Royster looked like a starter. Shannahn like RB's that were very productive in college. But on the other hand I like Helu too. I think Shannahan is gonna have fun switching starters based on game plan versus opponent. Got to give him props on those two RBs.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=Chico23231;918721]I kinda think that is really important, your point of context. the ability to work together with your oline, to work in sync for the most production. So Royster ability to gain those yards working well with the cogs at Oline is a positive right?[/quote]Um sure? But wouldn't you also have to consider:

(a) that obviously his low number of carries skews his ypc
(b) the fact that Royster had a benefit of playing behind an OL that gel as opposed to playing behind a patchwork experimental OL that included the Eric Cook at Center (who turned out to be inept) and Will Montgomery at LG (who proved to be overmatched at OG)
(c) quality of the competition/defenses faced in Royster's only starts

[quote]I remember watching Parcells talking about drafting RBs, YPC was his top indicator, didnt matter how it happed as long as the guy touched the ball and could be productive with it. [/quote]It obviously goes without saying that Parcells would not weigh ypc on a few carries equally with the ypc with a lot of carries.

There is no way around the fact that his low number of carries skews his ypc.

[quote]I think Royster drastically improved from the beginning to end of year, and I think that YPC was surprising, as well as impressive. If I had to put money on our starter next year, Royster would be the guy.[/quote]I thought Royster looked good in preseason.
I'm not surprised by his ypc because I remember watching those games and the yards were there.
I think the starter is gonna be won during training camp, but if I were a betting man (i am) my money would be on Helu.

What about Royster's running style do you like?

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Royster has the best vision of the three. I mean, I probably didn't see enough Royster to conclude that unconditionally, but Hightower really leaves a lot of yards out on the field and I don't feel Helu is blessed with great vision, at least based on what he displayed as a rookie. You'd want to put Helu in the open field and let his elusiveness take over rather than asking him to find the open field himself.

I'd still say Helu is the best of the three by a considerable amount (for all the talk about how Hightower is an excellent pass protector -- and he is -- Helu was almost as good by the end of the season), but he isn't blessed with that great vision, and if the offensive line were to become one of the five best in football, it'd be Royster who would pick up the most yards behind that group.

Here's why Helu is so critical: those bootlegs that Kyle is practicing with RG3 just won't be that effective against NFL defenses unless: he's willing to put Helu at tailback on up to 75% of run down snaps, and then give him the ball on the stretch run a steady diet. It's too easy to cheat on the bootleg (and get free shots on RG3) if you know it's coming and you're simply not worried about the stretch run to the frontside.

So while it seems like Griffin will be deadly on boots, if Kyle just sends Hightower out there every first and ten for every first quarter of the game, and then fakes it to him on boot action, RG3 isn't going to even get out of the backfield after the second game of the season. Teams know that you can stop Hightower on the stretch run with seven guys. So then there's always going to be an unblocked defender (strong safety or slot back typically) clean through to Griffin.

In the past, Kyle hasn't been good about getting his best backs into the game on first and ten. That's four years running now. For Griffin to be at his most dangerous, that needs to change this year. Helu must dominate early down snaps in the first half of games.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=30gut;918734]Um sure? But wouldn't you also have to consider:

(a) that obviously his low number of carries skews his ypc
(b) the fact that Royster had a benefit of playing behind an OL that gel as opposed to playing behind a patchwork experimental OL that included the Eric Cook at Center (who turned out to be inept) and Will Montgomery at LG (who proved to be overmatched at OG)
(c) quality of the competition/defenses faced in Royster's only starts

It obviously goes without saying that Parcells would not weigh ypc on a few carries equally with the ypc with a lot of carries.

There is no way around the fact that his low number of carries skews his ypc.

I thought Royster looked good in preseason.
I'm not surprised by his ypc because I remember watching those games and the yards were there.
I think the starter is gonna be won during training camp, but if I were a betting man (i am) my money would be on Helu.

What about Royster's running style do you like?[/quote]

I think Royster is stronger, like the vision and hands. I love Helu no doubt, I dont think he is a consistent 20+ carry guy. Helu is the biggest playmaker and better to the outside. We will need both in order to be successful. I see Hightower as the 3rd down back with the pass protection skills and the I think he knows how to get the "tough yard" when needed.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

They are saying that Tristan Davis could compete for a spot. Apparentley he can run like the wind. 4.3 40ytd. I am pretty excited about our depth at this position.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

[quote=Chico23231;918739]I think Royster is stronger, like the vision and hands. I love Helu no doubt, I dont think he is a consistent 20+ carry guy. Helu is the biggest playmaker and better to the outside. We will need both in order to be successful. I see Hightower as the 3rd down back with the pass protection skills and the I think he knows how to get the "tough yard" when needed.[/quote]Why don't you think Helu is a consistent 20+ carry back?
Helu has demonstrated this ability more then Royster has.
Helu has actually carried the ball 20+ times 4 games, Royster on the other hand has yet to carry it over 20 times.

I gotta disagree with you on the strength and hands though.
I think Helu is clearly the strongest back on the roster running through contact and has the best hands.

Lets keep in mind that if Royster showed better then Helu last year Royster would likely have made the roster while Helu would have went to the practice squad.

When it comes to vision and running style I think they complement each other.
Helu is more no nonsense to me, he makes his decision quickly and commits.
Royster is more patient a little more shifty and seems to look for the cutback.

Re: A question of style: Evan, Roy or Tim?
 

Ultimately Shanny will go with the back with the hot hand aka the one back who is being most productive...I just think Royster will be given the chance over Helu.

Hey both are a very similar and will have to contribute in order for us to win. Lets see how their second season goes, im pulling for both guys.