Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;918662]Sorry the number is still the same in 2011.

[URL="http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm"]TPC Tax Topics | Who Doesn't Pay Federal Taxes?[/URL]


As far as living off 50K per year that would not be very hard in our area. In the 80's when I was a single father trying to get my career started I made maybe $13,000 per year and made ends meet.[/quote]

Again, Households. HOUSEHOLDS. FAMILIES. What you said and what you are showing are two different things. The notion that a family of four or five living off of LESS than 50k a year after the stuff I mentioned isn't believable. Maybe if you live in a run down rat hole, and roll through it without insurance.


Also, calling shens on you supporting a family off of 13K, even during the 80s.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;918662].............when I was a single father trying to get my career started I made maybe $13,000 per year and made ends meet.[/quote]

Living in a van, down by the river?

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

Also, there's a big difference between not owing taxes and not paying taxes. Personally, I take 0 deductions on my pay check. I'd rather not pay anything at the end of the year, and I'm okay giving uncle sam a loan for a few months. Just because I get money back at the end of the year doesn't mean I didn't pay my fair share of taxes, it meant I paid more than my fair share (by current standards).

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=NC_Skins;918689]Again, Households. HOUSEHOLDS. FAMILIES. What you said and what you are showing are two different things. The notion that a family of four or five living off of LESS than 50k a year after the stuff I mentioned isn't believable. Maybe if you live in a run down rat hole, and roll through it without insurance.


[B]Also, calling shens on you supporting a family off of 13K, even during the 80s.[/B][/quote]

You can say what you want but I did have to raise a child for a few years making 13k. In life you have to do what you have to do to make things work.

I have seen it worded both ways and I'm not 100% sure which is the correct number.

[URL="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125997180"]Who Pays Taxes? Not As Many As You Think : NPR[/URL]

Taxes are commonly referred to as one of life's certainties. You know what the other one is. And tomorrow is when Americans pay their federal income taxes. For many of us, the biggest single tax bill we see is at the bottom of an IRS 1040 form. For many of us, but not for all of us.
For many Americans, the Social Security and Medicare taxes take a bigger chunk of their income than the income tax does. And for quite a few Americans, that's a low threshold to clear since they don't pay any federal income tax at all.
Roberton Williams is a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center, used to work on tax analysis at the Congressional Budget Office. And Mr. Williams' finding has gone viral. Let me ask you, now, how many Americans don't pay any federal income tax? And generally speaking, who are those people?
Mr. ROBERTON WILLIAMS (Senior Fellow, Tax Policy Center): By our estimate, about 47 percent of Americans will not pay any federal income tax for 2009. The people involved in that tend to be families with children, the elderly, low income households, those who either have too little income to pay taxes or who benefit enough from all the deductions, credits and exemptions in the income tax, so they're zeroed out on the bottom line of their 1040.
SIEGEL: And that number, 47 percent, is up from just a couple of years ago. What's the trend? By how much is it up and why?
Mr. WILLIAMS: Well, in 2007, just 38 percent of Americans didn't pay tax. It jumped to 49 percent for 2008, and 47 percent this year, primarily because of the stimulus bills that we've put in place trying to get the economy going again. In 2008, President Bush's stimulus payments sent $600 to individuals, $1,200 to couples, plus a little bit more if you had kids, and that all showed up as a tax reduction when you filed your income taxes.
This year we have the 2009 stimulus, which includes making work pay. Almost every American who works got benefit from that and a few other things that bring down tax bills.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

by the way, for a few years while i was in the air force i didn't owe taxes... a lot of my money came in tax free pay (BAH/BAS) and SS etc was taken out before i ever saw a cent. after deductions and all that. I guess that means i should have quit SOC and gotten a real job :P

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;917830]Just one small example. I guess he does not count the thousands and thousands of jobs it takes to build and support a rich mans toys.
[IMG]http://www.charterworld.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Miami-International-Boat-Show-Marina-2010.jpg[/IMG]


The rich do not create all the jobs but they sure do create a punch of jobs.[/quote]


Now let me address this crap that is constantly spewed. Oh, if the rich people didn't buy all these high priced toys, there would be a lot of people out of a job. Really?

Northern Marine (yatch builder) This is their work force. Look at ALL those jobs...lol
[IMG]http://www.northernmarine.com/gallery/employment3.jpg[/IMG]

Lazzaro Yatchs. 250 employees
[url=http://www.insideview.com/directory/lazzara-yacht-corporation]Lazzara Yacht Corporation - Company Profile by Insideview[/url]


We can't even count Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, or Lotus because they are all jobs overseas. Even then, they still employ very small numbers in the grand scheme of things.


So exactly where are all these jobs that are created by rich people buying these "toys" you speak of?


Let me ask you a question FD. Which would help the economy out more. Giving one person 1 billion dollars, or giving one million people 1,000 each? Which do you think would produce more spending?



Speaking of cars. I suggest you see how many cars are bought by the middle class and how many cars are bought by the rich elite.

[url=http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html]Auto Sales - Markets Data Center - WSJ.com[/url]

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;918662]Sorry the number is still the same in 2011.

[URL="http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/federal-taxes-households.cfm"]TPC Tax Topics | Who Doesn't Pay Federal Taxes?[/URL][/quote]

Did you even bother to find out who that 47% you keep talking about?

[LIST]More than half are elderly[/LIST][LIST]one-third are nonelderly with income under $20,000[/LIST][LIST]Only about 1 in 20 is nonelderly with income over $20,000[/LIST]

But...the rich elite (not say you are) keep pointing and saying LOOK THESE GUYS AREN"T PAYING TAXES!!

Yeah, let's tax a person who can't even afford to support themselves on less than 20k. That's very smart. :doh:

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=NC_Skins;919098]Now let me address this crap that is constantly spewed. Oh, if the rich people didn't buy all these high priced toys, there would be a lot of people out of a job. Really?

Northern Marine (yatch builder) This is their work force. Look at ALL those jobs...lol
[IMG]http://www.northernmarine.com/gallery/employment3.jpg[/IMG]

Lazzaro Yatchs. 250 employees
[URL="http://www.insideview.com/directory/lazzara-yacht-corporation"]Lazzara Yacht Corporation - Company Profile by Insideview[/URL]


We can't even count Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, or Lotus because they are all jobs overseas. Even then, they still employ very small numbers in the grand scheme of things.


So exactly where are all these jobs that are created by rich people buying these "toys" you speak of?


Let me ask you a question FD. Which would help the economy out more. Giving one person 1 billion dollars, or giving one million people 1,000 each? Which do you think would produce more spending?



Speaking of cars. I suggest you see how many cars are bought by the middle class and how many cars are bought by the rich elite.

[URL="http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html"]Auto Sales - Markets Data Center - WSJ.com[/URL][/quote]

That's pretty narrow minded thinking only 250 people build those boats. Who builds the motors, electronics, the interior stuff, like toilets, showers, pumps, fittings, etc, etc.... How much of the work is sub contractors and how many people do they employ. Also those are not new boats in that ship yard. Oh, who built that building, paved that surface, ran electrical, plumbing in that building.

I have only scratched the surface of the employees it takes to make those boats float down the river.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;919354]That's pretty narrow minded thinking only 250 people build those boats. Who builds the motors, electronics, the interior stuff, like toilets, showers, pumps, fittings, etc, etc.... How much of the work is sub contractors and how many people do they employ. Also those are not new boats in that ship yard. Oh, who built that building, paved that surface, ran electrical, plumbing in that building.

I have only scratched the surface of the employees it takes to make those boats float down the river.[/quote]


Yeah, and how many of these boats are made per year? Not many, which means the demand for those other parts are VERY low as well. So again, lets not act like the rich create a lot of jobs. They don't.

Also, you have still yet to answer my question, which no doubt you ignored on purpose.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=NC_Skins;919358]Yeah, and how many of these boats are made per year? Not many, which means the demand for those other parts are VERY low as well. So again, lets not act like the rich create a lot of jobs. They don't.

Also, you have still yet to answer my question, which no doubt you ignored on purpose.[/quote]
You have never owned a boat I can see. My point was not how many jobs the rich created with their toys it was that Nick Hanauer said the rich do not creat jobs and they do. As for your question I'd say probably giving the thousand to a million people but again your changing my original point I was making.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;919374]You have never owned a boat I can see. My point was not how many jobs the rich created with their toys it was that Nick Hanauer said the rich do not creat jobs and they do. As for your question I'd say probably giving the thousand to a million people but again your changing my original point I was making.[/quote]

Then you are changing Hanauer's overall point that the rich don't really create jobs. Aside a few jobs here and there to make their "toys", they really don't create jack shit in the grand scheme of it all and you know this so stop spouting such garbage. The overall idea from the conservative crew is that if you give the rich people all the money, they'll create jobs. It hasn't worked since Regan fooled people into believing this and it'll NEVER work because they are keeping the money for themselves. Just so we are clear, you in fact agreed that the economy would be better spent by spreading that money around as opposed to letting one man horde it all.


Yes my family has owned boats and sailboats all of our lives. Skiing, fishing, scuba diving. I live right off the coast of NC bro. It's what we do.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=NC_Skins;919386]Then you are changing Hanauer's overall point that the rich don't really create jobs. Aside a few jobs here and there to make their "toys", they really don't create jack shit in the grand scheme of it all and you know this so stop spouting such garbage. The overall idea from the conservative crew is that if you give the rich people all the money, they'll create jobs. It hasn't worked since Regan fooled people into believing this and it'll NEVER work because they are keeping the money for themselves. Just so we are clear, [B]you in fact agreed that the economy would be better spent by spreading that money around as opposed to letting one man horde it all.[/B]


Yes my family has owned boats and sailboats all of our lives. Skiing, fishing, scuba diving. I live right off the coast of NC bro. It's what we do.[/quote]

So you want socialism? So my rich friend (your words) with 89 employess does not create jobs? My buddy who owns a orthopaedic physical therapy and sports medicine business with around 25 employees does not create jobs? Thanks I'll let them know.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;919399]So you want socialism? So my rich friend (your words) with 89 employess does not create jobs? My buddy who owns a orthopaedic physical therapy and sports medicine business with around 25 employees does not create jobs? Thanks I'll let them know.[/quote]

No, I don't socialism, but I don't want very few people owning all the wealth, which is exactly what is happening.


Your buddy doesn't employee those people by himself and for himself. His business employees those people. Does he take all that money he gets with his tax breaks and hire people to do random stuff or create extra jobs with the money he's saving? I seriously doubt he does.


Also, unless your "rich friend" is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, he's probably not in the category we are talking about.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=NC_Skins;919407]No, I don't socialism, but I don't want very few people owning all the wealth, which is exactly what is happening.


[B]Your buddy doesn't employee those people by himself and for himself.[/B] His business employees those people. Does he take all that money he gets with his tax breaks and hire people to do random stuff or create extra jobs with the money he's saving? I seriously doubt he does.


Also, unless your "rich friend" is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, he's probably not in the category we are talking about.[/quote]

In both cases they are the business and without them there would not be a business. I know the friend with 89 employees takes a bunch of money every year and puts it back into his business so he has capital to grow and hire new employees. We are really picking at things to prove a point. All of us, the rich, middle class, and the poor creat jobs in one way or the other and its time we quit playing the class card against one another. I'll agree that the rich probaly would not be rich without the spending of the middle class and the poor but on the same hand alot of the poor and middle class would not have jobs without the rich creating them. Last time I checked we all depend on one another in some shape or form.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

[quote=firstdown;919413]In both cases they are the business and without them there would not be a business. I know the friend with 89 employees takes a bunch of money every year and puts it back into his business so he has capital to grow and hire new employees. We are really picking at things to prove a point. All of us, the rich, middle class, and the poor creat jobs in one way or the other and its time we quit playing the class card against one another. I'll agree that the rich probaly would not be rich without the spending of the middle class and the poor but on the same hand alot of the poor and middle class would not have jobs without the rich creating them. Last time I checked we all depend on one another in some shape or form.[/quote]

Well, I think we are talking about two different things. You are talking about stuff that really is "small business" related. I don't think people have a problem with small businesses. I think it has more to do with the big corporations. Should the Walton family continue to rake in billions or help raise the quality of life for their employees, which in turn would also enable them to spend more (gasp even at walmart).

You are arguing semantics. His claim about rich not creating jobs isn't to be taking literal that not a single job was created. It's talking about the big picture of things, the over all job market. It's been proven that giving rich people more money doesn't help out the economy in any shape form or fashion. The numbers and graphs prove that. In fact, the economy has always done better when the rich were taxed heavily.

Also, we can't stop playing the class card because there is definitely a class warfare. Rich are trying to get richer and keep their power hold on the government. The poor and middle class are scrapping to stay alive. Eventually one of two things will happen. The rich will win and the public will riot and revolt. The rich will be put back into line and things will balance back out. The pure fact remains that we can't continue down this course we are going.


[url=http://news.yahoo.com/big-paychecks-tiny-tax-burdens-21-000-wealthy-100029578--abc-news-politics.html]Big Paychecks, Tiny Tax Burdens: How 21,000 Wealthy Americans Avoided Paying Income Tax - Yahoo! News[/url]

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

That article does nothing to explain how 21,000 did pay taxes in that year. You going to use that crap of an article to prove a point. They talked about one person changing the form of corp they are and then gave a few general tax deduction someone could use. I could have told you that basic stuff. Even the one person who they said paid no taxes one year had paid 10 million sense 2005. Thats just lazy and poor journalism.

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

In other news even Bill Clinton thinks we need to keep the taxe rates as they are.


By Tom Curry, msnbc.com National Affairs Writer
Former president Bill Clinton roiled the presidential campaign Tuesday with comments in an interview with CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo in which he called for continuing all the current income tax rates into early 2013, as opposed to President Obama who wants income tax rates on higher-income people to go up at the start of 2013. Clinton also said the economy is still in a recession.

It was the second time in a week that Clinton had appeared to go “off message” from the Obama campaign and to put distance between himself and the president. In comments on CNN last week, Clinton defended GOP presidential contender Mitt Romney’s role as head of Bain Capital, praising Romney as a man who “had a sterling business career.”

Re: Nick Hanauer - Job Creator Myth
 

how do you think Clinton got re elected? not by appeasing the poor