Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;962996]The scheme isn't the problem. It's the lack of talented players. Shanahan has always sucked at acquiring defensive talent. As long as he's in Washington, our defenses will never be good, no matter what scheme we run.[/quote]

If you look at our defense very closely, you will see that every player that is starting on the front seven didn't play in a 3-4 scheme in college except Barry Cofield. Cofield played some NT at Northwestern before being drafted by the NY Midgets. Every linebacker and down linemen played in 4-3 systems in college. Mike Shanahan is crappy as hell at picking players that are natural to the 3-4 scheme. As I mentioned before in this thread, Bruce Allen, Mike Shanahan, and Scott Campbell are going to have to look more closely at the NCAA football programs that run the 3-4. Most notably Alabama, Maryland, and Notre Dame.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;961863]The defensive coaches are scratching their heads after 9 straight weeks of mediocrity. The problem, I keep saying, is not the base defense that's being run. It's the personnel on the field. The same thing would still be happening if the Redskins were running a 43 defense just like back in 2006 when the Redskins finished 27th in defense.[/quote]

Not 9 weeks of mediocrity, 9 weeks of steadily marching toward having the worst defense in the history of the league.

There IS a BIG difference. I would love for this defense to be mediocre right now, it might have meant one or two more wins, and we would still be in the hunt for a playoff spot. The defense is absolutely atrocious right now though, with no end in sight. If we are planning on Merriwaeather to save us, my god help us.........

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

If we have a truley feared pass rusher on our team not named Orakpo I'd like to know who he is. I love Kerrigan but of course he's much more effective with Rak on the other side. Who on the D-Line scares you? I was hoping it would be Jenkins but that hasn't worked out. Where's our safety blitz? That'sa joke. Polomolu doesn't play for us. Hall is never gonna be the player he was expected to be because he's never been very coachable. Add to that an uninspired...uncreative DC and you get what we've got fella's. 3-4 4-3. We'd pretty much suck either way.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

Kerrigan hasn't had two guys on him since Rak went down. He's simply not getting to the QB. He's one of the best players on a bad defense. He wouldn't start for any of the top defenses. I see Kerrigan as an average to slightly above average player. We need elite players on our defense. Not average. The last potentially elite player we had on defense was #21.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;963012]If you look at our defense very closely, you will see that every player that is starting on the front seven didn't play in a 3-4 scheme in college except Barry Cofield. Cofield played some NT at Northwestern before being drafted by the NY Midgets. Every linebacker and down linemen played in 4-3 systems in college. Mike Shanahan is crappy as hell at picking players that are natural to the 3-4 scheme. As I mentioned before in this thread, Bruce Allen, Mike Shanahan, and Scott Campbell are going to have to look more closely at the NCAA football programs that run the 3-4. Most notably Alabama, Maryland, and Notre Dame.[/quote]

Your point has nothing to do with mine. The majority of our defensive players aren't talented - period. Our defense would be no better if we kept the same players but switched to a 4-3.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

I think it is safe today we have a lot of untalented players on defense that are not the best fit for the 3-4.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Ruhskins;963072]I think it is safe today we have a lot of untalented players on defense that are not the best fit for the 3-4.[/quote]

I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=donofriose;963173]I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.[/quote]

Boom! Preach it

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=donofriose;963173]I think we do not have players for either a 3-4 or a 4-3, have to get the right coach and players. Right now we have neither. Our d-line is playing like garbage, our linebackers can't cover tight ends or stop the run, and of course the secondary is the secondary. I personally prefer the 3-4, I think Orakpo and Kerrigan can be good 3-4 OLB's, and Carriker is a good DE, not a good DT in a 4-3 though (proved in St. Louis he could not play the position), so we need to change the type of 3-4 we run and change the coaching staff. and obviously draft a lot of new players. Point is it does not matter which scheme we run cause we do not have the players for either.[/quote]

Scheme matters when you don't have the right players. This team decided to make a major in switch on defense, yet they f'ed up by not getting the right players and a good DC that can work in the transition. Honestly, I don't care what defensive scheme they use, just get the right players period. Get a true 3-4 NT, get some ILBs that can cover TEs, and fix the safety debacle.

I know this defense has lacked talent in many areas. But things are worst when you don't have talent, you try to fit players in the wrong scheme, and we don't have a coach that can work with these deficiencies. So unless you're going to have Bill Bellichick or Wade Phillips coach our defensive unit, scheme matters and having the right players for the right scheme matters as well.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Ruhskins;963219]Scheme matters when you don't have the right players. This team decided to make a major in switch on defense, yet they f'ed up by not getting the right players and a good DC that can work in the transition. Honestly, I don't care what defensive scheme they use, just get the right players period. Get a true 3-4 NT, get some ILBs that can cover TEs, and fix the safety debacle.

I know this defense has lacked talent in many areas. But things are worst when you don't have talent, you try to fit players in the wrong scheme, and we don't have a coach that can work with these deficiencies. So unless you're going to have Bill Bellichick or Wade Phillips coach our defensive unit, scheme matters and having the right players for the right scheme matters as well.[/quote]

Bellichick has proven he cannot coach defenses anymore. They are not forcing players to play out of scheme. Carriker is a good 3-4 end. Cofield is an average NT, could we upgrade yes we could but he is not the biggest problem right now. Jenkins has not proven anything but he is a prototypical 3-4 end. Orakpo and Kerrigan are good 3-4 outside linebackers. I agree we need to upgrade the 3-4 ILBs but our linebackers would not be good if we played a 4-3 or a 3-4. It is not like these players are out of position. The secondary is obviously terrible. We don't have players that would fit well in a 4-3 or a 3-4, because the truth is those players are just not good.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=donofriose;963302]Bellichick has proven he cannot coach defenses anymore. They are not forcing players to play out of scheme. Carriker is a good 3-4 end. [B]Cofield is an average NT, could we upgrade yes we could but he is not the biggest problem right now.[/B] Jenkins has not proven anything but he is a prototypical 3-4 end. Orakpo and Kerrigan are good 3-4 outside linebackers. I agree we need to upgrade the 3-4 ILBs but our linebackers would not be good if we played a 4-3 or a 3-4. It is not like these players are out of position. The secondary is obviously terrible. We don't have players that would fit well in a 4-3 or a 3-4, because the truth is those players are just not good.[/quote]

I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel he'd be a much better DE in our D).

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Ruhskins;963305]I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel [B]he'd be a much better DE in our D[/B]).[/quote]

I agree with this, I'm not sure why they couldn't find a decent NT too but I think it probably means that they truly believe that Cofield is the answer.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=GridIron26;963322]I agree with this, I'm not sure why they couldn't find a decent NT too but I think it probably means that they truly believe that Cofield is the answer.[/quote]

I heard Aikman say once that Cofield is not a conventional NT. Cofield in fact played NT at Northwestern. As for them not finding a decent nose tackle, the scouts are not looking at the NTs who play in 3-4 defenses nationwide like Alabama, Stanford, Maryland, Notre Dame, and other NCAA programs who run the 34 defense. When they signed Ma'ake Kemoeatu two years ago, they thought his size would be enough. But the guy couldn't play NT at all.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;963346]I heard Aikman say once that Cofield is not a conventional NT. Cofield in fact played NT at Northwestern. As for them not finding a decent nose tackle, the scouts are not looking at the NTs who play in 3-4 defenses nationwide like Alabama, Stanford, Maryland, Notre Dame, and other NCAA programs who run the 34 defense. When they signed Ma'ake Kemoeatu two years ago, they thought his size would be enough. But the guy couldn't play NT at all.[/quote]

How do you know what scouts are looking at?

Kemo's problem here was he couldn't get healthy. He's made a bit of a comeback with the Ravens.

[url=http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765613406/Former-Utah-standout-Maake-Kemoeatu-returns-to-the-Baltimore-Ravens-after-sitting-out-last-season.html]Former Utah standout Ma'ake Kemoeatu returns to the Baltimore Ravens after sitting out last season | Deseret News[/url]

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Mattyk;963347]How do you know what scouts are looking at?

Kemo's problem here was he couldn't get healthy. He's made a bit of a comeback with the Ravens.

[url=http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765613406/Former-Utah-standout-Maake-Kemoeatu-returns-to-the-Baltimore-Ravens-after-sitting-out-last-season.html]Former Utah standout Ma'ake Kemoeatu returns to the Baltimore Ravens after sitting out last season | Deseret News[/url][/quote]

Simply because mostly every player involved in the defensive line rotation is either a free agent signing that played in the 4-3 defense with some other NFL team, a draft choice that played in a 4-3 in college such as Jarvis Jenkins at Clemson, or traded for some player that played in the 4-3 defense previously(Adam Carriker). It seems to me that the scouts would be doing the same thing that the Steelers and Ravens are doing. Terrace Cody played in a 3-4 defense at Alabama and was a 2nd round draft choice of the Ravens 2 years ago.

Not to mention Orakpo, Kerrigan, Riley, Keenan Robinson, and a few other LBs played as middle linebackers and/or defensive ends in a 4-3 defense in college and not in the 3-4. Its obvious as clearly as the eyes can see that the Redskins scouts are doing a poor job at scouting players who fit Haslett's 3-4 defense to a T. Sure, you can have natural DEs as Kerrigan and Orakpo play OLB in the 3-4, but they are not NATURAL 3-4 OLBs. They only fit because of their athletic ability and awareness. Same thing goes for Perry Riley. He didn't start a game in the 3-4 defense until his second year because he had to learn the scheme just like Keenan Robinson is doing now.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=REDSKINS4ever;963349]Simply because mostly every player involved in the defensive line rotation is either a free agent signing that played in the 4-3 defense with some other NFL team, a draft choice that played in a 4-3 in college such as Jarvis Jenkins at Clemson, or traded for some player that played in the 4-3 defense previously(Adam Carriker). It seems to me that the scouts would be doing the same thing that the Steelers and Ravens are doing. Terrace Cody played in a 3-4 defense at Alabama and was a 2nd round draft choice of the Ravens 2 years ago.

Not to mention Orakpo, Kerrigan, Riley, Keenan Robinson, and a few other LBs played as middle linebackers and/or defensive ends in a 4-3 defense in college and not in the 3-4. Its obvious as clearly as the eyes can see that the Redskins scouts are doing a poor job at scouting players who fit Haslett's 3-4 defense to a T. Sure, you can have natural DEs as Kerrigan and Orakpo play OLB in the 3-4, but they are not NATURAL 3-4 OLBs. They only fit because of their athletic ability and awareness. Same thing goes for Perry Riley. He didn't start a game in the 3-4 defense until his second year because he had to learn the scheme just like Keenan Robinson is doing now.[/quote]

You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Mattyk;963350]You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying but it would benefit the coaches, the players they have, and the players that they will draft, sign, and trade for in the future if they just played the 4-3 defense.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

Improve talent first and foremost (especially in the secondary) and everything else will take care of itself. The 3-4 vs the 4-3 talk is so overblown its unbelievable. Amazing how we heard very little of this debate last year when the D was actually decent.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

Yeah. Talent can overcome a lot of shortcomings. Problem is Shanny has no idea what qualifies as talent on the defensive side of the ball.

And, judging from his first two seasons, he barly knows it on the offensive side.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Mattyk;963350]You and a lot of others are awfully hung up on this 3-4 thing.

Plenty of teams convert players coming out of college. Its not an uncommon thing at all. Not enough schools run a 3-4. You can't just limit drafting guys from 3-4 schools, that's really shrinking the pool of potential players.[/quote]

Why is any of that important for us? Name a 3-4, 3-4/hybrid that was/is any good without an elite NT?

So we lack the key ingredient, and then the same mistake takes some of our best players out of position. It forces Fletcher into single coverage away from the middle of the field, which never has to happen given the right scheme. It doesn't let Orakpo rush the passer every down.

The defense is indefensible. Injury is the cover story, but the devil is in the details. We lack the right guys for what we're trying to do, and we force guys we do have out of their best-fit position. It's there on every play, no chance of missing it.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

I honestly don't care what defense they run, just get the right damn players for whatever scheme they want to run and a better defensive coordinator.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Ruhskins;963305]I don't think that is the biggest problem either, but it is a problem I am puzzled as to why we never found a more suitable player for that position. I think we have some young guys that would fit better at that position (Neild, Baker), but [B]I don't think Cofield belongs in that spot (personally I feel he'd be a much better DE in our D[/B]).[/quote]

I think that he would be great there too, but the problem is that for DE are asked to do more athletically than the NT. Also when its passing downs DEs are typically moved to the spot of where 4-3 DTs are on passing downs and rushing the passer. Cofield doesnt have the stamina to be in there every other passing down like Bowen is, per say.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;963406]I think that he would be great there too, but the problem is that for DE are asked to do more athletically than the NT. Also when its passing downs DEs are typically moved to the spot of where 4-3 DTs are on passing downs and rushing the passer. Cofield doesnt have the stamina to be in there every other passing down like Bowen is, per say.[/quote]

I just don't think Cofield has the ability to be the disruptive NT of a traditional 3-4 like Casey Hampton, Vince Wilfork, BJ Raji or Shaun Rogers.

Re: Switch to 3-4 Defense a Failure
 

[quote=Bishop Hammer;963382]Yeah. Talent can overcome a lot of shortcomings. Problem is Shanny has no idea what qualifies as talent on the defensive side of the ball.

And, judging from his first two seasons, he barly knows it on the offensive side.[/quote]

I agree 100% and for this reason Bruce Allen should be drafting the players, looking for key free agents, and making the trades instead of Mike Shanahan. Allen is the GM. Shanahan is the head coach. The GM should do what GMs do and the head coach should only be focusing on directing the players.