Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

I agree, it's a total clusterf---, and it all started the day Snyder fired Casserly instead of Turner.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=joecrisp]I agree, it's a total clusterf---, and it all started the day Snyder fired Casserly instead of Turner.[/QUOTE]


JC, Let's face it, I don't beleive Casserly persay was a big mistake, we had a better talent evaluater in Marty here after Casserly was fired, and after he straightened out the mess created the year before with our fortune 5 hundred team, Marty found undrafted talent in the form of Pierce and IFFY, getting a starting CB in the second rd in Smoot, Gardner wasen't a bad pick at the time who knew he would drop pass after pass, yet Snyder fired him any way, why? Well could it possibly be Marty knows talent, and Snyder doesn't? And Danny Boy couldn't handle someone picking players that he had no clue about, rather than listening to Snyder and letting him have a say on talent? Marty refused and so doing essentially let Snyder know he doesn't know what he's talking about, and so Marty was shown the door.

Now Snyder turns over player personell to Gibbs who has a very small track record of talent evaluation, but that track record is failure in 1 Desmond Howard!

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Not only were the Charges close to going to the Super Bowl last year, but they also have had a great draft this year too..........what's the old saying, "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"........ :( Marty got the Redskins the closest to success at 8-8 ..............

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]we dont need a wr receiver, and we dontneed an olb. gibbs doesnt throw a his TE, he never has, they are blockers. Plus we have cooley. We filled our need at corner, and we have an insurance plan if ramsey doesnt improve. Gibbs didnt lie, im sure ramsey is our starter. Last time i checked just becuase you have a rookie qb it doesnt mean he starts. This also shows that gibbs isnt just trying to win now and then retire, hes doing what he feels is best for the team now and in the future.[/QUOTE]


Are you too young to remember Clint Diddier?

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

All this shit is Funny

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=monk81]Not only were the Charges close to going to the Super Bowl last year, but they also have had a great draft this year too..........what's the old saying, "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"........ :( Marty got the Redskins the closest to success at 8-8 ..............[/QUOTE]


I absolutly loved their draft It was what I wanted for us, and we have to stand by and take it, oh the humanity. :frusty:

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]Are you too young to remember Clint Diddier?[/QUOTE]


Clint was used more so as a WR though when he came in teams knew we were throwing and put a man on him, he wasen't a blocking TE, when Clint left that was it for the TE's no more passes.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Joe Gibbs did not lie. To say he did is nonsense - gross hyberbole from someone who just doesn't like the decisions that were made, and interprets comments in a narrow and supernegative, critical way to suit his purposes.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Welcome back to football talk Shane. :)

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=offiss]JC, Let's face it, I don't beleive Casserly persay was a big mistake, we had a better talent evaluater in Marty here after Casserly was fired, and after he straightened out the mess created the year before with our fortune 5 hundred team, Marty found undrafted talent in the form of Pierce and IFFY, getting a starting CB in the second rd in Smoot, Gardner wasen't a bad pick at the time who knew he would drop pass after pass, yet Snyder fired him any way, why? Well could it possibly be Marty knows talent, and Snyder doesn't? And Danny Boy couldn't handle someone picking players that he had no clue about, rather than listening to Snyder and letting him have a say on talent? Marty refused and so doing essentially let Snyder know he doesn't know what he's talking about, and so Marty was shown the door.

Now Snyder turns over player personell to Gibbs who has a very small track record of talent evaluation, but that track record is failure in 1 Desmond Howard![/QUOTE]

Marty's GM skills were better than anything else the Skins have had since Casserly was fired, and Marty's doing a fine job out there in San Diego. My point was basically that, outside of the Marty year, this team has been like a rudderless ship since Casserly was fired. Like yourself, I put much of the blame for that on Snyder's infatuation with himself and his toady, Vinny Cerrato. To me, it's not so much a lack of talent evaluation skills as it is an ineptitude with draft management, and a propensity to overpay for the talent they want-- whether in the form of ridiculous signing bonuses or draft picks or both.

Combine that with the staff turnover of the past six years, and the inability or refusal to retain the quality talent that they're actually able to draft, and you wind up with a team that's constantly spinning its wheels, and seemingly never able to get moving forward. Or, like Dan Patrick was saying on ESPN Radio all last week, it seems like the Redskins under Dan Snyder have been a car in traffic that just keeps changing lanes, hoping to somehow outmaneuver the traffic in front of them, without realizing that if they just picked a lane and stuck with it, they'd probably reach their destination a lot faster with a lot less trouble.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

What is all this talk that we need another WR. We are LOADED at WR. We traded for Santana Moss and David Patten, remember?

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

I wish Gardner just would have been the go-to guy all along so we wouldn't have to worry about a possession receiver.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Clint was used more so as a WR though when he came in teams knew we were throwing and put a man on him, he wasen't a blocking TE, when Clint left that was it for the TE's no more passes.[/QUOTE]


That's also not true. Although, Donnie Warren was primarily a blocking Tight End first, he caught his fair share of passes.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=offiss]JC, Let's face it, I don't beleive Casserly persay was a big mistake, we had a better talent evaluater in Marty here after Casserly was fired, and after he straightened out the mess created the year before with our fortune 5 hundred team, Marty found undrafted talent in the form of Pierce and IFFY, getting a starting CB in the second rd in Smoot, Gardner wasen't a bad pick at the time who knew he would drop pass after pass, yet Snyder fired him any way, why? Well could it possibly be Marty knows talent, and Snyder doesn't? And Danny Boy couldn't handle someone picking players that he had no clue about, rather than listening to Snyder and letting him have a say on talent? Marty refused and so doing essentially let Snyder know he doesn't know what he's talking about, and so Marty was shown the door.

Now Snyder turns over player personell to Gibbs who has a very small track record of talent evaluation, but that track record is failure in 1 Desmond Howard![/QUOTE]
I agree that Marty did a good job with the draft, but what's done is done.

As for Gibbs track record, how many years did he coach Desmond Howard? ONE! Nobody will ever know if he would have turned into something better if Gibbs had stuck around. My point being, I'm sick of people pointing back to that. Every team has draft busts.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]That's also not true. Although, Donnie Warren was primarily a blocking Tight End first, he caught his fair share of passes.[/QUOTE]


No he didn't, fair share compared to what? the Giants used to refuse to cover our TE because they said we never threw to them, we found that out when we signed an x-Giant who told Gibbs this before a game with them, now if a team flat out refuses to cover a TE what would you call it?

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]I agree that Marty did a good job with the draft, but what's done is done.

As for Gibbs track record, how many years did he coach Desmond Howard? ONE! Nobody will ever know if he would have turned into something better if Gibbs had stuck around. My point being, I'm sick of people pointing back to that. Every team has draft busts.[/QUOTE]


He did winde up with GB with Favre and couldn't muster more than being a return man for them, I would say if he had any talent at WR favre would have gotten him the ball?

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Hey guys after Beatherd left Casserly was the GM and Gibbs did have more power. Gibbs is always straight up and to call him a lier is just flat out wrong.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=offiss]No he didn't, fair share compared to what? the Giants used to refuse to cover our TE because they said we never threw to them, we found that out when we signed an x-Giant who told Gibbs this before a game with them, now if a team flat out refuses to cover a TE what would you call it?[/QUOTE]


I think you're just trying to be argumentative for the heck of it. As I have stated, Donnie Warren was a BLOCKER first, but he caught his fair share of passes. The Giants refused to cover our TE because he was a BLOCKER first and not a threat to catch the ball, but that does not mean the ball was never thrown to him. Diddier was more of a threat as a pass receiving tight end..which proves my point that we did throw to our tight ends and saying we didn't is a naive and wrong.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]I think you're just trying to be argumentative for the heck of it. As I have stated, Donnie Warren was a BLOCKER first, but he caught his fair share of passes. The Giants refused to cover our TE because he was a BLOCKER first and not a threat to catch the ball, but that does not mean the ball was never thrown to him. Diddier was more of a threat as a pass receiving tight end..which proves my point that we did throw to our tight ends and saying we didn't is a naive and wrong.[/QUOTE]

Your point is fair share, please define that, what do you consider to be a fair share of passes for a TE?

let me help you he caught 158 passes in 11 years and as Gibbs offense evolved his catches went down, after 1983 he caught 20 passes 1 time with a total of 7 career TD's thats about 14 catches a year.

In 8 yrs Didier caught 141 passes and only 3 times did he catch more than 13 in a season which breaks down to about 17 catches a year.

Which then breaks down to 31 catches a year between 2 players.

The top 7 TE's last year averaged 75 catches each.

Gibbs doesn't put any focus of the game plan around the TE, of coarse their going to make some catches and some plays even a broken clock is right twice a day but their not a big part of the game plan by any means. There is a reason a guy like Warren stuck around so long, it was because Gibbs values a TE's abiltiy to block more than to catch.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Skinsguy don't even bother with off, he will argue till you are blue in the face. He is never wrong so there is no point in trying to make him see the light cause he is never wrong.

However I agree with your assesment that they were use mostly for blocking and did get their FAIR SHARE of passes. Comparing them to todays TE is unfair as offense and defensive game plans have changed along with a better crop of athletic TE's. Seems to me that the West Coast offense was in its iffancy stages in the 80's.

Keep up the good posts and ignore those who, well you know what I mean here.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=CRT3]Skinsguy don't even bother with off, he will argue till you are blue in the face. He is never wrong so there is no point in trying to make him see the light cause he is never wrong.

However I agree with your assesment that they were use mostly for blocking and did get their FAIR SHARE of passes. Comparing them to todays TE is unfair as offense and defensive game plans have changed along with a better crop of athletic TE's. Seems to me that the West Coast offense was in its iffancy stages in the 80's.

Keep up the good posts and ignore those who, well you know what I mean here.[/QUOTE]


Of course he thinks he's always right. After someone keeps telling themselves that over and over again, they eventually start to believe that is the case when the rest of us can see what is obvious. That is why I say Off is arguing for the sake of argument.

Its funny, but if he actually took time to read and understand what others post, he might not be so inclined to argue.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Skinsguy and CRT3, You two aren't exactly open to other interpretations either. I think it's funny how you'll blast someone for it but can't possibly fathom it was Gibbs that held this team back last year. If you want to criticize someone for being closed minded, look to yourself first before you make that accusation.

The thing is, when it comes to things like this Offiss is pretty damn correct most of the time. He gave you hard numbers to look at, and you can't really say anything to it besides bringing it down to a personal level. He also seems to know a hell of a lot about the Giants. Someone was arguing with him about LT and he was right - something TAFKAS found an article on.

Offiss doesn't drink the Kool-aid, and he doesn't just follow someone and support their actions no matter what. He's normally a very objective person and will give credit where credit is due. If he has different views from you, so what. They joy is this board used to be able to argue their side without someone launching some sort of personal attack on them. Lately that seems to be changing.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

So I said what I think, does that make me close minded? I did take a jab at Off but he somtimes deserves it. But what is most interesting about your staement is that you said Off gave hard numbers. Sure numbers don't lie but the schemes have changed over the years which was my point. I said "However I agree with your assesment that they were use mostly for blocking and did get their FAIR SHARE of passes. Comparing them to todays TE is unfair as offense and defensive game plans have changed along with a better crop of athletic TE's. Seems to me that the West Coast offense was in its iffancy stages in the 80's."
So the hard numbers don't neccesarly match up with reality, or do they?

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Then match them up against TE's of that era and examine them.

CRT3, both you and skinsfan have not agreed with me. Which is fine, many people here don't necessarily share my opinions. Some do. However, most everyone can argue against me without things getting personal, and that's how I like it. We can both argue our point, but at the end of the day we're all Redskins fans with a lot of knowledge to be shared. It's amazing how much you can learn from hearing other people's opinions and being open to others. The worst thing I see on this site is someone telling another person because they don't think Gibbs is the messiah, or saying that he had problems last year that they're no longer a fan. Fans should be most critical of their own team, not so optimistic they look foolish.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

The one thing that pisses me off most is when it gets into a dick-swinging contest in here. Daseal is right. Sometimes it just gets WAY too personal. Most of us that have been here awhile know how other people think and we accept that opinion.

Personally, I value dissenting opinions because on more than one occassion, people have pointed hard facts out to me and due to that information, I have changed my mind.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[quote]Daseal is right.[/quote]
Words rarely spoken! Sorry - I must savor the moment!

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Then match them up against TE's of that era and examine them.

CRT3, both you and skinsfan have not agreed with me. Which is fine, many people here don't necessarily share my opinions. Some do. However, most everyone can argue against me without things getting personal, and that's how I like it. We can both argue our point, but at the end of the day we're all Redskins fans with a lot of knowledge to be shared. It's amazing how much you can learn from hearing other people's opinions and being open to others. The worst thing I see on this site is someone telling another person because they don't think Gibbs is the messiah, or saying that he had problems last year that they're no longer a fan. Fans should be most critical of their own team, not so optimistic they look foolish.[/QUOTE]
Well put, but I have never claimed Gibbs to be the mesiah and I am still a huge fan. In fact to prove how big a fan I am, I went to a very high level business meeting the other day with not a tie and jacket like my cohorts but my retro Arrington jersey. Sure broke the stuffy mood of the meeting and the deal got done much to my favor. Plus, I got to rub it in a little further with a Eagles cohort who just never has the balls to do that. So I would say no one around here would ever claim that I am not a diehard. No on to the comparisons, lets pick the top 5 from the early 80's and the to[ 5 from last year and compare.

2004
Crumpler - Atlanta = 48 Rec 774 Yds. 6 TDs
Gonzalex - KC = 102 REC 1258 Yds. 7 TDs
Gates - SD = 81 REC 964 Yds. 13TDs
Shockey - NYG = 61 REC 661 Yds. 6 TD's
Johnson -SF = 82 REC 825 Yds. 2 TDs
(Heap - Bal Played 6 Games and Winslow - Clev Played 2) These 2 Could be the best of the bunch

1983
Winslow Sr. - SD 88 Rec. 1172 Yds. 8 TDs
Newsome - Clev 89 Rec. 970 Yds. 6 TDs
Christenson - Oak 92 Rec. 1247 Yds. 12 TDs
Caufman- GB 54 Rec. 814 Yds. 11 TDs
Cosbie - Dal 46 Rec. 588 Yds 6 TDs


So a slight edge to last years guys over 1983 which was choosen as it had the consensus of carreer years for all of the above. There are more 2 TE offenses now and the tight end is utilized more then ever. What might be your thoughts on this

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

To me 83 and 04 look fairly similar in terms of receptions.

I don't doubt you're diehard, nor do I doubt it about anyone on the site. I wasn't trying to crack on your dedication, I'm more than sure it's there. The problem is people on this site being accused of it.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Skinsguy and CRT3, You two aren't exactly open to other interpretations either. I think it's funny how you'll blast someone for it but can't possibly fathom it was Gibbs that held this team back last year. If you want to criticize someone for being closed minded, look to yourself first before you make that accusation.

The thing is, when it comes to things like this Offiss is pretty damn correct most of the time. He gave you hard numbers to look at, and you can't really say anything to it besides bringing it down to a personal level. He also seems to know a hell of a lot about the Giants. Someone was arguing with him about LT and he was right - something TAFKAS found an article on.

Offiss doesn't drink the Kool-aid, and he doesn't just follow someone and support their actions no matter what. He's normally a very objective person and will give credit where credit is due. If he has different views from you, so what. They joy is this board used to be able to argue their side without someone launching some sort of personal attack on them. Lately that seems to be changing.[/QUOTE]


Hey pot, the kettle's calling you! :vomit-smi

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Daseal,

Talk about someone bringing something down to a personal level..you have just done so in one post and whatever conversation/argument that Off and I were having had nothing to do with you whatsoever.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

I'm not attacking you whatsoever. I'm guessing you're referring to the first paragraph since the rest couldn't remotely be judged as biased towards you. I was saying how you guys like to blast people and bring them down when they have a different opinion from yours. I will gladly find you some examples if you like.

I also didn't bring it to a "personal level" in that respect. I didn't start to say you're not a fan, or you're an idiot for thinking Gibbs offense can still work. There's a difference between saying what you see, and slandering someone.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Chaps, play nice please. :nono:

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Yes, you are attacking me Daseal. And what is worse, you're using a public thread to do so instead of settling it maturely with private messaging. What's more, you have brought this to a personal level by singling me out. I have never posted, "Daseal, you're not a Redskins fan." I have posted something along the lines of, "Some here apparently are fair weather fans or quick to jump off the bandwagon when things go wrong..." which is the truth. If you felt you were guilty of such, then so be it, but I haven't singled you out.

And yes, I disagree with you quite often and feel I have a right to disagree with you by posting my thoughts and feelings like anyone else does. When I do, I base my opinions on personal experience of watching this football team since the early 1980's and following them very closely up until the present. If you think I'm blasting you - sorry, but I'm just stating my opinion on what I know works and what I'm pretty sure doesn't.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

Explain how I'm attacking you? You say that people are fairweather fans in every other post it seems like. Any post that at all shows Gibbs in a negative light you think someone's a fairweather fan. If people are still fans now, it's doubtfull they're going to be leaving now. This hasn't exactly been the golden age as far as the Redskins gaining fans. The thing is Redskins fans are some of the most loyal in the business. We always hate our players and our coaches but love the team.

I singled both you and CRT3 out in this thread, I don't deny that whatsoever. CRT3 didn't seem upset by what I said and I feel that he and I mended a fence to a point because of what I said and him responding.

I also feel you have the right to disagree with me just as much as I have the right to disagree with you. That's what I like about this board. The problem is it turns into an I'm right you're wrong argument, which isn't the way it should be. You seem to have an overly confrontational attitude, that's how you are. I've made points, using numbers, and you've still refused to say that there was anything wrong with Gibbs offense. A fact most people have slowly come to reverse and admit that it wasn't all that last year. Am I saying it can't change, not at all. I hope he opens it up and becomes the master of adjustments once again - from what I saw last year we didn't get much of that.

Though you haven't said straight up "Daseal, you're not a Redskin fan." You've done similar things, and I promise you that less than 1% of this board isn't what you'd call fairweather. Granted I haven't had the luxury of remember the skins games since the early 80s (born in 83) I have watched them for as long as I can remember. I distinctly remember when Gibbs won his 3rd superbowl I was very young, and all the adults were pissed because I won the super bowl party pool! I got like 200 bucks... which for your information equates to one hell of a lot of gummi bears!

Either way, I have nothing personal against you and I hope you don't against me. I will gladly argue with you all the time, and all I ask is you don't take it personal. I'm sorry if you took my previous thread personally, I certainly didn't mean it in that sense.

Re: Joe Gibbs lied
 

It's about to be a (What)...Girl Fight!