Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]If teams will stop putting up with that type of shit, then maybe we won't have to see players like TO in the league anymore. Once you establish the precedent that you don't allow that type of behavior on your team and the rest of the league follows, maybe the NFL would be much more character-based.[/QUOTE]

Weren't some of the people now bashing TO for his holdout and his "me first" attitude the same people supporting him in his "me first" touchdown celebrations? Does anyone else besides me think they are just two symptoms the same core problem? TO's deep and abiding love for himself.

Why does the NFL put up w/ TO type players? 'Cause fans want to see 'em. They want to watch them make athletic plays and then watch them dance. All the time focusing attention on themselves and not their teammates (Who was it who threw those 14 TD's to you, Owens? And for those dancing DE's, Who was it that ate up two blockers so you could get a clean shot at the QB?).

So the next time a player pulls some diva crap ON the field and you applaud/support or otherwise condone it; Don't bitch when they pull the same crap OFF the field.

Re: Does character count?
 

Can someone explain to me any reason why we should be defending Winslow? This just doesn't make sense to me.

1. He calls out OUR TEAM on draft day because he was pouting over the fact that ST got drafted ahead of him and we didn't draft him like we "promised". A ROOKIE......calling out the entire Redskins team and organization?! Are you kidding me? Who the hell does he think he is? What has he done to think that he's earned the right to call out a hall of fame coach and storied franchise?

2. Any 20-year-old PUNK, who even DARES to compare his football exploits to that of being a "Soldier" is an absolute idiot with ZERO Character in my book. Sorry, but NOBODY is going to convince me any differently of this.

3. He goes and buys a bike and starts doing stunts on it before he's ever learned how to ride responsibly or obtained a license, IN DIRECT VIOLATION of specific clauses contained in the contract that HE SIGNED, and gets seriously injured, thereby jeopardizing the success of his team this year. If that's not a me-first attitude, I don't know what is.

Now please explain to me what's worth defending in the person of Kellen Winslow II? He's not even on our team for goodness sake. It's just amazing to me that some of the same people who want to crucify Arrington for not reading his contract before he signed it, are willing to just skip over the fact that Winslow stands in direct breach of his contract. And I'll never understand why some people on this site feel the need to defend players on other teams more than current Redskins.......especially when those other players are people like Kellen Winslow.

Re: Does character count?
 

Exactly what did he say about the DUI incident? Just saying he "talked" about it means nothing. I wouldn't say he threw him under the bus simpyl talking about it. Now if he said Sean Taylor was a complete distraction who lost them football games then that's more like throwing under the bus.

Re: Does character count?
 

That's right personally I see these actions as proof that he has attitude problem and didn't improve them this past year. It was reported that TO would practice his TD celebrations in the locker room before a game. Is this what he should be working on before a game? Is Philly paying him all that money to improve their TD dancing?

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Does this mean Jon Jansen isn't a team guy? Didn't he throw Sean Taylor under the bus on draft day? At least TO made remarks about a game, Jansen got nasty with the man's personal life.[/QUOTE]
The more I think about this post I am wondering what the point of it was? We're you disagreeing with what I said or were you just trying to start something about Jansen? It doesn't seem like it has anything to do with what the thread is about. Jansen's name was never mentioned until you mentioned it.
I would say that mentioning his "personal life" in this case was 100% appropriate since it ended up DIRECTLY affecting the Redskins. Remember he was suspended for one game for missing practice after it in one of his 2 year old type pouting displays. That makes it "team business" too.

Re: Does character count?
 

I didn't think Janson's remark was in any way malicious. His point was that Tayler should be at Redskin park like everyone else working out.

Re: Does character count?
 

If Winslow's contract has a specific clause about not riding motorcycles then (as Red would say on That 70s Show. “He's a total dumb ass”.

Re: Does character count?
 

Schneed - I never said he wasn't an idiot. I just don't think that a bike incident alone makes someone a bad person. I know a lot of people who ride bikes that have great characters. I think it's unfair to judge him by that - is he stupid, most certainly.

[quote]1. He calls out OUR TEAM on draft day because he was pouting over the fact that ST got drafted ahead of him and we didn't draft him like we "promised". A ROOKIE......calling out the entire Redskins team and organization?! Are you kidding me? Who the hell does he think he is? What has he done to think that he's earned the right to call out a hall of fame coach and storied franchise?[/quote]
He calls our team out because Joe Gibbs promised to draft him and he wanted to be a Redskin. What an asshole - can you count the number of players upset that they didn't become a Redskin? I wouldn't be the least bit suprised if Winslow went Rosenhaus if we would be all distraught about this motorcycle accident. I think Gibbs wanted him but we couldn't have another Poston guy.

[quote]2. Any 20-year-old PUNK, who even DARES to compare his football exploits to that of being a "Soldier" is an absolute idiot with ZERO Character in my book. Sorry, but NOBODY is going to convince me any differently of this.[/quote]

He called himself a soldier. Know what's ironic? It was either on Don & Mike or Ron & Fez. They were talking to a soldier and he compared his unit to a football team. So what? people always have compared football players to soldiers. Just now it's really a touchy feely subject (stupid). Let's rename Soldier field, to overpaid physically gifted persons field. I feel someone calling themself a soldier could be a remark of respect too. Football is a violent game where the wars are won and loss in the trenches. It's how it is, you'll never stop the analogies between football and war.

[quote]
3. He goes and buys a bike and starts doing stunts on it before he's ever learned how to ride responsibly or obtained a license, IN DIRECT VIOLATION of specific clauses contained in the contract that HE SIGNED, and gets seriously injured, thereby jeopardizing the success of his team this year. If that's not a me-first attitude, I don't know what is.[/quote]
I promise you, that clause gets broken on a daily basis, even by Redskins players. So let's get off our high horse for a moment and realize that because he bought a bike and was riding it DOENS'T make him a bad character guy. Stupid? Yes. But it's his money and his career he's sacrificing. It's his decesion.

FRPLG - it was a response to you. Remember how you said TO threw McNabb under the bus? I said at least he did it with something about McNabb's play. Not personal life. I guess you forget about the whole innocent until proven guilty thing our country has. It's really neat, see, Taylor didn't do anything wrong. Believe it or not guys, a majority of cops you meet are assholes, especially if you're a young, rich, black man. Especially when you think you can make a name for yourself busting Sean Taylor. The judge threw the case out in a second - let's try blaming the cop for falsely arresting Sean Taylor.

So not only was he INNOCENT and Jansen brought it up, it's inappropriate. You don't put anyones personal life out there like that. That's not a good way to build team chemistry, and Jansen was in the wrong 100%. You think he should ever say "LaVar needs to come to camp, I know his cousin has cancer, but that's really not an excuse." How would you feel then? No matter the reason - leave personal stuff out of it.

Rickmmr - I'd agree had he left it to professional things, and I think Taylor should be there too. However, personal life is out of bounds.

Re: Does character count?
 

First off, Winslow was on a bike that was way too much for a beginner to be trying to handle. Second, he was going way too fast for someone who was "learning", third, there are reports that he was spotted earlier in the day by a cop pulling wheelies on a main road.

[url="http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/sports/football/11558994.htm"]http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/sports/football/11558994.htm[/url]

He didn't even have his helmet strapped on. This wasn't the case of someone honestly trying to learn how to ride a bike, taking things slowly like you should, etc. I don't even wanna hear that crap.

I really don't understand why anyone would want to defend his actions. He made a piss poor decision. The Browns have millions of dollars invested in him. I'm sure his contract has some language in it pertaining to avoiding unnecessary risks like riding motocycles, I'm sorry but his horrible decision to act like a hot dog on a bike he can't handle has let his entire team down.

I think it's definitely appropriate to question his character after a string of horrible decisions leading up to his wreck. He's an even bigger meathead than Taylor.

Re: Does character count?
 

Im not defending his actions - I think it's foolish to think someone has a bad character because of a mistake. Riding a motorcycle too fast at age 21... Amazing. Where's the "Who didn't do stupid thigns when they were young." post? The same one we see for every Redskins player. It was stupid without a doubt - it doesn't make him a bad person.

Re: Does character count?
 

So what are you defending Daseal? That he's a nice guy??

You've said he was stupid for what happened, isn't that the basic point here?

Man, if this happened to LaVar or Taylor we would be having a field day. We already give both of them the 3rd degree for things like changing their numbers or speaking out in the press.

To me, his actions and words put his character in question. There's not much that he's done to make me think otherwise.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]Weren't some of the people now bashing TO for his holdout and his "me first" attitude the same people supporting him in his "me first" touchdown celebrations? Does anyone else besides me think they are just two symptoms the same core problem? TO's deep and abiding love for himself.

Why does the NFL put up w/ TO type players? 'Cause fans want to see 'em. They want to watch them make athletic plays and then watch them dance. All the time focusing attention on themselves and not their teammates (Who was it who threw those 14 TD's to you, Owens? And for those dancing DE's, Who was it that ate up two blockers so you could get a clean shot at the QB?).

So the next time a player pulls some diva crap ON the field and you applaud/support or otherwise condone it; Don't bitch when they pull the same crap OFF the field.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that for the most part. TO wants people to eat his shit, and people do. I do agree that a lot of it has to do with the fans. I'm going to make a bold statement, completely without bias when I say that Redskins fans are some of the more intelligent, civilized fans of any team that I know of. I don't think that any of us would put up with or cheer for any TO dances in the end zone if we were unfortunate enough to have him on our team.

I would like to think that the majority of fans for every team would never want anyone like TO or Randy Moss.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]Im not defending his actions - I think it's foolish to think someone has a bad character because of a mistake. Riding a motorcycle too fast at age 21... Amazing. Where's the "Who didn't do stupid thigns when they were young." post? The same one we see for every Redskins player. It was stupid without a doubt - it doesn't make him a bad person.[/QUOTE]

Then I think you're going way too easy on someone who is paid millions and millions of dollars. The whole reason he's paid so much money is because the city of Cleveland is willing to pay so much to go see him play and help their team win. He hasn't just let down his teammates, he has let down the fans of the Cleveland Browns. When you're paid that much money, you're held to a higher standard. It's a fact of life.

Re: Does character count?
 

I agree with both of you (if that's possible). I agree that people do stupid things when they're young. Taylor hasn't started off problem-free yet.

However, I agree with Schneed in the fact that you ARE held to a higher-standard when people are paying your million dollar salary.

I wouldn't want my politicians (just an example, I hate politicians) getting wasted every weekend or doing equally stupid actions that affect what WE pay them to do.

On the subject of character, I agree with Daseal that what he did doesn't make him a bad person. It's just like he is a patron son of Cleveland and that they should be disappointed in him, but not disown him.

Re: Does character count?
 

I just don't flat out understand all the haters for players like TO. Sure they are out for themselves and do things many just don't like. All of them have one quality that we can say we haven't had in awhile. That is that they win. Moss, R. Williams, T.O. they were always on a winning team and made there team better. Players like that are few and far between anything you will see. They are gamebreakers and are at the top of the league every year. They make people on the team better. Love em' or hate em', but you better resepct them cause odds are there gonna get theres. I am one of the few if not only one who has no problem with T.O. he is an amazing player and he can do whatever he wants in my opinion. As for KWII, so what he called out the redskins cause we didn't draft him. People here are way to uptight over this guy. Players have been calling out teams for years and years. Like Aaron Rodgeers calling out the Niners. It will always happen and will continue. I can't judge him cause he has only played like 1 and 3 quarters in his career. I'm sure I'll get some great replies. I know I am new school and a lot of ol' schoolers don't agree with it, but oh well.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I agree with both of you (if that's possible). I agree that people do stupid things when they're young. Taylor hasn't started off problem-free yet.

However, I agree with Schneed in the fact that you ARE held to a higher-standard when people are paying your million dollar salary.

I wouldn't want my politicians (just an example, I hate politicians) getting wasted every weekend or doing equally stupid actions that affect what WE pay them to do.

On the subject of character, I agree with Daseal that what he did doesn't make him a bad person. It's just like he is a patron son of Cleveland and that they should be disappointed in him, but not disown him.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think you sum it up well, MC. I don't mean to say that Kellen Winslow can't be forgiven. He made a dumbass decision with the bike riding. But if I were a fan of the Cleveland Browns, I'd love him if he came back and worked hard when he was healthy next time, and stayed off the motorbikes. If you learn from your mistakes and bad decisions, and do your best to make things right, I can forgive anyone.

In the same vein, I'm irked at Sean Taylor right now for not being at workouts. I think he should be there. But if he comes to camp in shape, works hard in training camp, stays humble, and lays some wood on the Dallas Cowboys this year, I not only won't have a beef with him anymore, but he'll be my friggin hero.

Re: Does character count?
 

According to Dan Patrick, a few minutes ago, there is reasonable possibility that KW2 is done for the year with a torn ACL

Re: Does character count?
 

I don't think that anyone disagrees that Moss and TO are great players. I DO think that they are cancer to an organization and over-all shitheads. Yes, the respective teams they have been on HAVE been winners. Haven't the Eagles made it to the NFC championship the past 3-4 years without him? I also don't recall the 49ers being Super Bowl contenders while he was there.

Minnesota became good all at once and I'm sure a lot of it can be attributed to Randy Moss, BUT I think it's a little too early to say that he was the only playmaker Minnesota had. We'll see how the Vikes do this year and then that decision can be made...

However, having a good team around you is what makes you a good team. You can have players like TO and Randy and they give you that added depth. They aren't simply the only reason that a team is good or great.

A lot of people will argue that TO put the Eagles over the hump this year. I disagree. They've been winning the NFC East for years now and they still made it over the metaphoric hump (NFC Championship game) without the help of TO. It wasn't even the offense that was essential to that game. The defense is who shut down Michael Vick.

In the end, teams don't NEED a TO or Randy Moss. There are plenty of bonafied playmakers out there who are classy enough and don't cause dissention among the ranks.

Re: Does character count?
 

I guess I'm old school because I fail to see how being a great player on the field and at least a respectable person off of the field are mutually exclusive. To my weary old brain, it seems like players who do both (i.e. perform on the field and conduct themselves with some dignity elsewhere) should be the rule and not the exception.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Yeah I think you sum it up well, MC. I don't mean to say that Kellen Winslow can't be forgiven. He made a dumbass decision with the bike riding. But if I were a fan of the Cleveland Browns, I'd love him if he came back and worked hard when he was healthy next time, and stayed off the motorbikes. If you learn from your mistakes and bad decisions, and do your best to make things right, I can forgive anyone.

In the same vein, I'm irked at Sean Taylor right now for not being at workouts. I think he should be there. But if he comes to camp in shape, works hard in training camp, stays humble, and lays some wood on the Dallas Cowboys this year, I not only won't have a beef with him anymore, but he'll be my friggin hero.[/QUOTE]

Definitely. On that subject, Taylor BETTER show up to mandatory camps because it's not like they can even DO anything about his contract until August 1st anyway.

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[QUOTE=skin4Life28]I just don't flat out understand all the haters for players like TO. Sure they are out for themselves and do things many just don't like. All of them have one quality that we can say we haven't had in awhile. That is that they win. Moss, R. Williams, T.O. they were always on a winning team They make people on the team better. Love em' or hate em', but you better resepct them cause odds are there gonna get theres. I know I am new school and a lot of ol' schoolers don't agree with it, but oh well.[/QUOTE]

The 49ers had some winning teams with T.O? Yea right, they sucked! And I don't remember the Saints or Dolphins being that great with R.Williams. What has Randy Moss done for the Vikings? Besides putting up #'s that make him look good?I think the Vikings got to one NFC championship game with Randy. And that was in his rookie year with Cris Carter mentoring him. Once it was his team the Vikings sucked in big games.
You can have your new school me me players. I will take the blue colar not so flashy hard working team player any day of the week.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I don't think that anyone disagrees that Moss and TO are great players. I DO think that they are cancer to an organization and over-all shitheads. Yes, the respective teams they have been on HAVE been winners. Haven't the Eagles made it to the NFC championship the past 3-4 years without him? I also don't recall the 49ers being Super Bowl contenders while he was there.

Minnesota became good all at once and I'm sure a lot of it can be attributed to Randy Moss, BUT I think it's a little too early to say that he was the only playmaker Minnesota had. We'll see how the Vikes do this year and then that decision can be made...

However, having a good team around you is what makes you a good team. You can have players like TO and Randy and they give you that added depth. They aren't simply the only reason that a team is good or great.

A lot of people will argue that TO put the Eagles over the hump this year. I disagree. They've been winning the NFC East for years now and they still made it over the metaphoric hump (NFC Championship game) without the help of TO. It wasn't even the offense that was essential to that game. The defense is who shut down Michael Vick.

In the end, teams don't NEED a TO or Randy Moss. There are plenty of bonafied playmakers out there who are classy enough and don't cause dissention among the ranks.[/QUOTE]

Great post, every word of it. A lot of times the guys who act selflessly don't find themselves in the spotlight, because they're not out promoting themselves and demanding more passes thrown to them. I think David Patten can be pretty big for us, NE just had too many receivers up there, and he knew it. He just kept quiet and kept working hard, doing what he could to win. He's the kind of guy I can really really root for, class act all the way.

Re: Does character count?
 

If any of you listened to that radio address with Moss, he made it pretty apparent it was ALL Rosenhaus who suggested he hold out.

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Last time i checked in T.O.'s time there he missed the playoffs twice. So thats not to bad since we have only been there once in like 10 years.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I don't think that anyone disagrees that Moss and TO are great players. I DO think that they are cancer to an organization and over-all shitheads. Yes, the respective teams they have been on HAVE been winners. Haven't the Eagles made it to the NFC championship the past 3-4 years without him? I also don't recall the 49ers being Super Bowl contenders while he was there.

Minnesota became good all at once and I'm sure a lot of it can be attributed to Randy Moss, BUT I think it's a little too early to say that he was the only playmaker Minnesota had. We'll see how the Vikes do this year and then that decision can be made...

However, having a good team around you is what makes you a good team. You can have players like TO and Randy and they give you that added depth. They aren't simply the only reason that a team is good or great.

A lot of people will argue that TO put the Eagles over the hump this year. I disagree. They've been winning the NFC East for years now and they still made it over the metaphoric hump (NFC Championship game) without the help of TO. It wasn't even the offense that was essential to that game. The defense is who shut down Michael Vick.

In the end, teams don't NEED a TO or Randy Moss. There are plenty of bonafied playmakers out there who are classy enough and don't cause dissention among the ranks.[/QUOTE]

Took the words right out of my mouth. Excellent points.

How many rings do T.O. and Moss have? How valuable have they really been to their teams? I don't see it. And I'm sorry, but I don't think it's a coincidence that a team like the Patriots has won three of the last four Superbowls with teams that have never included a player like TO or Moss.

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[url="http://www1.collegehumor.com/?movie_id=144539"]http://www1.collegehumor.com/?movie_id=144539[/url]

Just had to throw this in here... Looks like SKINZ_DOMIN8 made the news![url="http://www1.collegehumor.com/?movie_id=144539"]:Smoker:[/url]

Re: Does character count?
 

lol that was a funny ass video.

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It kills me when he blows it out his nose. I'm going to make another thread about funny vids. Daseal showed me one that I nearly shit myself over.

Re: Does character count?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]If any of you listened to that radio address with Moss, he made it pretty apparent it was ALL Rosenhaus who suggested he hold out.[/QUOTE]

Thankyou for saying that. Its the agents who convince players to not go to voluntary workouts and stuff. I think Rosenhaus is doing the same thing with Taylor as well. The league has to put a stop to the amount of contol that agents have in this league

Randy Moss will be great for the raiders and he won't have as many problems as what he did with the vikes. The media tends to blow things way out of perportion. Talent is talent so, I'd take a moss over patten any day. Sometimes you need a dick on the team.

Re: Does character count?
 

hey does anyone know when this big announcement is supposed to come?

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Definitely. On that subject, Taylor BETTER show up to mandatory camps because it's not like they can even DO anything about his contract until August 1st anyway.[/QUOTE]


When is the first mandatory camp for the Skins anyway?

Personally if I were the Eagle front office I'd start laying out the fines on TO and activate the no show clause in his contract. Its one thing to not show up for voluntary minicamps but not showing up for mandatory camps is another thing.

Re: Does character count?
 

I don't think Moss is a dick. I'm just disappointed he listened to his agent's advice.

I know that seems a little stupid to say, BUT sometimes what's in the best interest of you and the team is not listening to what your agent has to say.

We always seem to forget that Drew is lining his own pockets as much as the players are. I know he's probably a great agent and he wouldn't represent players that didn't listen to his advice. I'm also going to say that people work with him because I bet SOME teams would screw the player over if THEY had the chance also.

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Not to defend Drew though.

He's a douche.

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[QUOTE=mooby]hey does anyone know when this big announcement is supposed to come?[/QUOTE]I think its the moss press conference.

Re: Does character count?
 

Anticlimactic. I said it.

Oh well, at least the big news wasn't, "The Redskins finally came to terms with Santana Moss, signing him to a 15-year deal worth $200 million."

I'd prefer this because I can't think of any other scenarios that would be pleasing to me.

Re: Does character count?
 

[img]http://img223.echo.cx/img223/4381/scoot1cn.jpg[/img]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!!

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[QUOTE=Daseal]I know a lot of people who ride bikes that have great characters.[/QUOTE]

And if they don't make it into work because they crash their bikes popping wheelies like a 12-year-old on a new BMX, do all of their co-workers and thousands of fans suffer? Did they start doing tricks before even getting a license for those bikes?......these people you speak of.

[QUOTE]He calls our team out because Joe Gibbs promised to draft him and he wanted to be a Redskin. What an asshole - can you count the number of players upset that they didn't become a Redskin?[/QUOTE]

I can assure you his frustration and anger were fueled more by his own ego than by his desire to be a member of whatever team happened to be drafting in the top 5 last year

[QUOTE]He called himself a soldier. Know what's ironic? It was either on Don & Mike or Ron & Fez. They were talking to a soldier and he compared his unit to a football team. So what? people always have compared football players to soldiers.[/QUOTE]

I can guarantee you I never have.

[QUOTE] Just now it's really a touchy feely subject (stupid).[/QUOTE]

I have no words that won't get me kicked off this site to respond to this comment.

[QUOTE]Let's rename Soldier field, to overpaid physically gifted persons field. I feel someone calling themself a soldier could be a remark of respect too. Football is a violent game where the wars are won and loss in the trenches. It's how it is, you'll never stop the analogies between football and war.[/QUOTE]

If you really think even the most grueling football game in history has come anywhere close to a war, then we really should just not bother having this conversation.

[QUOTE]I promise you, that clause gets broken on a daily basis, even by Redskins players.[/QUOTE]

Murders get committed every day too, doesn't make it right.

Like I said, NOBODY is going to convince me that Winslow's calling himself a soldier is OK. When's the last time Winslow risked life and limb (literally) for his country? When's the last time he slept in ditch on foreign soil? When's the last time he went without decent food or the comforts of home for months on end? When's the last time he couldn't even see his friends or family for months because he had a job to do? And when's the last time he did all of this for peanuts (instead of millions of dollars) so that young, 20-year-old spoiled brats who have nothing else to worry about except working out, playing a game for a living, and riding around on new high-priced toys could have the freedom to disrespect him by comparing their "heroics" on a football field to that of being a soldier. Seriously, give me a freaking break.

Soldiers compare their teamwork to that of a football team? So be it. They've earned the right to make any comparison they want. Anybody's who ever played football knows what it's like to play football. But don't think for even one second that anybody's who played football knows what it means to be a soldier.

And I'm still waiting for a response on where the need to defend this Punk comes from. Particularly when some of us are so quick to string our own players up for so much less.

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I don't defend what he did, I DO however defend his character. Yes, he did something stupid. Yes, his team, his fans and (possibly) his family will have to pay the reprocussions of his stupidity. It makes him a stupid kid. Does it make him a bad person? Not in my book.

I do agree with you on the soldier comments except for one thing: I could LaVar saying the same thing and we would let it slide (I would not, but I feel the overwhelming majority would). He says stupid things, but I don't put him in the same category of assholes as TO or Randy Moss.

It might just be me, but it's when the venom starts to seep into the locker room and organization is when I feel a player is not a good person and has character issues.

Does he have some growing up to do? Absolutely. And we can say the same for our very own Sean Taylor. I like to laugh and poke fun at what Winslow did, but at the same time I hope his fans and team don't turn their backs, because I would hope to think that we wouldn't for one of our own.

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i know a real soldier on a football field. his name is robert mccune. he was a fifth round pick for the skins. he has the right to call himself a soldier. he did risk life and limb for his country. k2 hasn't.

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I agree that him saying that was REALLY corny.

But that's how I leave it. If we are saying that everytime someone comes up with a metaphor and uses it out of context they are stupid, then we are all being a bit hypocritical.

I'm sure there's been times we've all said something out of context and we all know what it meant. I know what Winslow meant. Again, I don't like the guy at all, but I feel like some of us are being very presumptuous in what kind of person he is.

Amen to McCune though. If you're going with the strict interpretation of metaphors, McCune IS a soldier. THAT'S someone with good character (from what I've seen so far).