Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Vermeil has won what? Levy has won what? Last I checked both have combined for Zero rings.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry for coming in on the end of the conversation, but if you are talking about Dick Vermeil, he has a Super Bowl ring with the Rams.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Vermeil has won what? Levy has won what? Last I checked both have combined for Zero rings.

You're right. A player should be able to say FU*K You to the coach and still play if he's good enough. And because any small amount of discipline might not be successful, you just shouldn't bother. Absolutely. Players should definitely be allowed to show complete disrespect for their team and coaches and the precedent we should set for that behavior is to name that player your starter, because after all, nothing is more important that how fast a player can run and how high he can jump and how many plays he can make. Attitude means nothing and respect for the team should be completely discounted.

Look, all I'm getting at is I think it's a little hasty to say that what I'm proposing is so "rediculous". Players have been benched and kept out of the starting lineup for less. Why we're so afraid to do it is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

Dude, Vermeil won with the Rams. 1999 wasn't that long ago. He also took the Eagles there in 1980. Marv Levy, while he didn't win, went to the Super Bowl 4 years in a row. You don't have to be a stark disciplinarian to be successful.

On Tom Coughlin, I'd contend that being 5 minutes late to a mandatory meeting is a worse offense than staying home from a voluntary workout.

I think you're letting your frustration over Taylor cloud your judgment. Not everything is going to be perfect. What would you have done about John Riggins when he held out in 1981? Players need good coaches, and coaches need good players. You have to strike a balance between maintaining order and control over your team, and keeping your players happy and interested in being Redskins for the long term. Gibbs is excellent at this, Tom Coughlin is not.

If you've got a player who just doesn't want to be here at all, like Laveraneus Coles, then you should get rid of him. But Sean Taylor has just been avoiding Gibbs and the team activities at this point, he hasn't made it clear that he doesn't want to be here. So if he shows up to mandatory practices, works hard, and plays well during the year, there's no harm done. All I'm saying is don't hang the guy just yet. He hasn't had a negative effect on the team attitude yet, he hasn't become a cancer yet, he hasn't caused us to lose a game yet, and he hasn't undermined the respect players have for the coaching staff yet. Benching him to "send a message" (ooh, I'm shaking in my boots) will do nothing and is premature.

I'd rather see Gibbs worry about coaching the guys who are attending OTAs than worry about the guys who aren't there.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]Sorry for coming in on the end of the conversation, but if you are talking about Dick Vermeil, he has a Super Bowl ring with the Rams.[/QUOTE]

:doh: ...Rams..........D'Oh........how the heck did I forget about the Rams?.......sorry, my mistake (I was thinking Eagles and Cheifs).

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]Dude, Vermeil won with the Rams. 1999 wasn't that long ago. He also took the Eagles there in 1980. Marv Levy, while he didn't win, went to the Super Bowl 4 years in a row. You don't have to be a stark disciplinarian to be successful.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I forgot about the Vermeil 99 Rams..........my bad. And I'm not saying you have to be a stark disciplinarian.........but comparing tough coaches to coaches like Turner and Spurrier and even Vermeil and Levy? I think you'll find that letting players walk all over you hasn't yielded as many championships.

[QUOTE]On Tom Coughlin, I'd contend that being 5 minutes late to a mandatory meeting is a worse offense than staying home from a voluntary workout.[/QUOTE]

Again you and I disagree on this, because I really don't think Strahan being 5 minutes late is worse than Taylor not showing up at all to OTAs and completely failing to return Gibbs's calls, but that's just me.

[QUOTE]I think you're letting your frustration over Taylor cloud your judgment. Not everything is going to be perfect. What would you have done about John Riggins when he held out in 1981? Players need good coaches, and coaches need good players. You have to strike a balance between maintaining order and control over your team, and keeping your players happy and interested in being Redskins for the long term. Gibbs is excellent at this, Tom Coughlin is not.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, you need a balance. But where is the balance in not doing anything? Really, I'd love to hear some suggestions on what else Gibbs can do regarding Taylor's actions here? So far, there has been my idea, and there has been do nothing. I simply can't bring myself to believing that doing nothing is the way to go or that it will creat a balance of anything. Again it's just my opinion.

[QUOTE]If you've got a player who just doesn't want to be here at all, like Laveraneus Coles, then you should get rid of him. But Sean Taylor has just been avoiding Gibbs and the team activities at this point, he hasn't made it clear that he doesn't want to be here. So if he shows up to mandatory practices, works hard, and plays well during the year, there's no harm done. All I'm saying is don't hang the guy just yet. He hasn't had a negative effect on the team attitude yet, he hasn't become a cancer yet, he hasn't caused us to lose a game yet, and he hasn't undermined the respect players have for the coaching staff yet. Benching him to "send a message" (ooh, I'm shaking in my boots) will do nothing and is premature.

I'd rather see Gibbs worry about coaching the guys who are attending OTAs than worry about the guys who aren't there.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, Gibbs should, and is, concentrating on coaching the players he does have. What I'm proposing takes none of his effort or concentration away from that. And I guess we will see if his actions so far have caused any controversies in the lockeroom if he ever shows up. As for his desire to be a Redskin? He hasn't shown me that in the least bit.

But I hear you..........I'm looking forward to his showing up for the mandatory stuff and I'm interested to see what kind of dynamic he has with the other players when/if he does show up. I hope that everyone will get along just fine and he picks up where he left off and he has a good excuse for Joe as to why he kept blowing him off. Hey, I'd love to be completely wrong here and have him show up without any ill-effects on his development or how the team/coaches view him. We'll see.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

i would like to know how many people on this sight would go to work if it was voluntary and you still got paid

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=redskinsskickazz]i would like to know how many people on this sight would go to work if it was voluntary and you still got paid[/QUOTE]


You mean if we still got paid even if we didn't show up?

It's kind of like me doing extra studies in my spare time with computer programming. I'm not getting paid for it and it doesn't count for college credit, but I am doing it to hopefully have an advantage over others who are finishing college - so I guess I would.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Vermeil has won what? Levy has won what? Last I checked both have combined for Zero rings.

You're right. A player should be able to say FU*K You to the coach and still play if he's good enough. And because any small amount of discipline might not be successful, you just shouldn't bother. Absolutely. Players should definitely be allowed to show complete disrespect for their team and coaches and the precedent we should set for that behavior is to name that player your starter, because after all, nothing is more important that how fast a player can run and how high he can jump and how many plays he can make. Attitude means nothing and respect for the team should be completely discounted.

Look, all I'm getting at is I think it's a little hasty to say that what I'm proposing is so "rediculous". Players have been benched and kept out of the starting lineup for less. Why we're so afraid to do it is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to beat you over the head anymore about Vermiel and Levy's accomplishments, just make sure you see their busts in the Hall of Fame (in the same wing as Gibbs' who has never been a strict disciplinarian) in a few years to get my point.. I don't get how not coming to VOLUNTARY workouts and team activities is disrespectful for the team and coaches.. Should he return phone calls, yes, should he be benched for it, hell no. Players have never been benched and kept out of the starting lineup for that or less..

[b]Matty, can I request a moratorium on all Taylor relating whining until he misses a mandatory practice or declares himself a holdout from camp?[/b]

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

i agree with that moratorium mainly because most of the discussion on the site the last few days has been about taylor not being here.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

fellas its May. lets worry more the closer the season gets. if gibbs isn't too pissed why should we be?? I am sure he will be running his butt when he gets in DC...

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

ST won't be leaving for atleast 7 years. They say it's not about money, but he did sign a team friendly contract and in 2 years he could possibly be the best safety in the league. Have patients with the youth, because it will pay off in dividends.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]I'm not going to beat you over the head anymore about Vermiel and Levy's accomplishments, just make sure you see their busts in the Hall of Fame (in the same wing as Gibbs' who has never been a strict disciplinarian) in a few years to get my point.. I don't get how not coming to VOLUNTARY workouts and team activities is disrespectful for the team and coaches.. Should he return phone calls, yes, should he be benched for it, hell no. Players have never been benched and kept out of the starting lineup for that or less..
[/QUOTE]

Actually I'd be pretty surprised if Vermeil makes the hall.

And players get into coaches' "doghouses" all the time, and they get put on the bench for it or sit out a few series for it. Not only does it not "never" happen, it happens multiple times each season. I'm not going to come up with all the examples now, but I'll be sure to point it out to you every time it happens this year if you like.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

i'm with you PSU21, taylor is the only player with an unexcused absence. i'm quite sure gibbs is more pissed off than he is showing. taylor not returning gibbs' calls is just total disrespect. i agree with you when you suggest some sort of punishment. whether the punishment works or not on "getting through" to taylor it needs to be done in order to set an example and to let the rest of the players know that a single player is not bigger than the team.
i'm really dissapointed in the amount of people on this sight that try to defend taylor. his actions are defenseless. there is no rational reason for him not being at the work outs or for not returning phone calls. i do think the signing of hall is in direct influence of the taylor situation. i think the skins are just preparing for the possibility of taylor not showing up for minicamp.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

Nobody is defending him, we would all like him to be at Redskins Park right now.

Simple fact is, voluntary workouts are not mandatory.

Does that make him any less than an ass? No, but is he breaking any team rules here? Quite simply, no. So why should he be punished??

Be annoyed with him if you want, but there's nothing the team can do to make him come to camp, until the practices are MANDATORY.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=PSUSkinsFan21]Actually I'd be pretty surprised if Vermeil makes the hall.

And players get into coaches' "doghouses" all the time, and they get put on the bench for it or sit out a few series for it. Not only does it not "never" happen, it happens multiple times each season. I'm not going to come up with all the examples now, but I'll be sure to point it out to you every time it happens this year if you like.[/QUOTE]
I'd be suprised if he didn't make the hall.. Super Bowls with 2 teams in 2 completely different eras, winning one.. A winner for most of his coaching career (Lost is about to come on so I am not going to take the time to research) not to mention his broadcasting prowess. If he somehow gets to the Super Bowl with the Chiefs (which I completely doubt by the way) he's a lead pipe lock.. Don't forget he's a media darling and they are the ones who vote..

Getting into a coaches doghouse in May and doing something midseason to get benched are completely different entities.. Once the season starts you are on their time, in May, you are on your own time.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Nobody is defending him, we would all like him to be at Redskins Park right now.

Simple fact is, voluntary workouts are not mandatory.

Does that make him any less than an ass? No, but is he breaking any team rules here? Quite simply, no. So why should he be punished??

Be annoyed with him if you want, but there's nothing the team can do to make him come to camp, until the practices are MANDATORY.[/QUOTE]



obviously we just have a huge difference of opinion on this subject. nobody is right and nobody is wrong, opinions are just opinions.
i guess my main thing is i just feel like taylor should have more loyalty or respect towards gibbs and the skins organization. ( i'm not sure if loyalty and respect are the right words to chose when trying to explain my view, i'm having trouble finding the right words. i hope you understand what it is i'm trying to say)
all i know is that i would never do what taylor is doing. to me it's a matter of morals or principles.
i think it's more of him not returning joes calls than it is him not being at the work outs that has me so frustrated with him. to me that is a huge sign of disrespect.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]I'd be suprised if he didn't make the hall.. Don't forget he's a media darling and they are the ones who vote..[QUOTE]





plus he cries more than any other coach in the history of professional sports.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins]obviously we just have a huge difference of opinion on this subject. nobody is right and nobody is wrong, opinions are just opinions.
i guess my main thing is i just feel like taylor should have more loyalty or respect towards gibbs and the skins organization. ( i'm not sure if loyalty and respect are the right words to chose when trying to explain my view, i'm having trouble finding the right words. i hope you understand what it is i'm trying to say)
all i know is that i would never do what taylor is doing. to me it's a matter of morals or principles.
i think it's more of him not returning joes calls than it is him not being at the work outs that has me so frustrated with him. to me that is a huge sign of disrespect.[/QUOTE]

Of course, and I totally agree that it's frustrating and it's very disrespectful.

But it's one of those situations where all you can do is shrug your shoulders and say, "what can you do"?

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

true enough.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

hopefully taylor is in camp when he needs to be and if he has a great year the skins can renegotiate his contract after next season.
give him a bigger contract and maybe give the skins less of a cap hit, everyone is happy.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

1st off cory Hall is no Sean Taylor... Im not even convinced he would challenge Ryan Clark, Pierson Prioleau or Andre Lott for that matter.

And yes, I think we should all hold off on trading/releasing Sean Taylor untill the guy actually holds out or makes his own demand regarding a trade or release. I mean he obviously contacted someone within the organization at least long enough to request a number change. Did he say " Hey, although I never intend to play in Washington ever again. Can I have number 21 just untill it`s official? "

I doubt it...

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

his agent prolly contacted someone.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

diehardskin2082:

Unless there is a MAJOR renegotiation or restructruing of his contract, Sean Taylor will NOT be here for seven years. His contract is back-loaded such that he MIGHT be far too costly from a cap perspective in years 6 and 7. Maybe even in year 5? We need Crazy Canuck here to give us the numbers...

Virtually all NFL contracts are back-loaded with huge salary numbers that give the player an "ego massage" when they sign the long-term deal for umpty tens of millions of dollars. But most of them never see those HUGE salaries in the final years because they either:

1. sign a new deal with a signing bonus and spread out that number over a bunch of years

2. get cut as a "cap casualty".

Sean Taylor is not immune from this reality. He may be here seven years from now and be an All-Pro safety earing huge bucks from Danny Boy Snyder's checking account. But if he falters, he won't even get a sniff of those huge salary years in his Redskin contract. The Skins know that; his agents know that (the ones he had to negotiate the contract in the first place and the ones he hires to try to find ways out of the current deal); hopefully, he knows that too since he has shown little if any ability to recognize the realities of the world that confronts him as a pro athlete.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=sportscurmudgeon]diehardskin2082:

Unless there is a MAJOR renegotiation or restructruing of his contract, Sean Taylor will NOT be here for seven years. His contract is back-loaded such that he MIGHT be far too costly from a cap perspective in years 6 and 7. Maybe even in year 5? We need Crazy Canuck here to give us the numbers...

Virtually all NFL contracts are back-loaded with huge salary numbers that give the player an "ego massage" when they sign the long-term deal for umpty tens of millions of dollars. But most of them never see those HUGE salaries in the final years because they either:

1. sign a new deal with a signing bonus and spread out that number over a bunch of years

2. get cut as a "cap casualty".

Sean Taylor is not immune from this reality. He may be here seven years from now and be an All-Pro safety earing huge bucks from Danny Boy Snyder's checking account. But if he falters, he won't even get a sniff of those huge salary years in his Redskin contract. The Skins know that; his agents know that (the ones he had to negotiate the contract in the first place and the ones he hires to try to find ways out of the current deal); hopefully, he knows that too since he has shown little if any ability to recognize the realities of the world that confronts him as a pro athlete.[/QUOTE]

If you look at the cap sheets that Crazy Chunk put together on the sites home page, Taylors numbers over his current contract are not really that bad, I think the highest I saw him getting was like 3.5million in year 4 or 5 of his current contract. So I kinda believe that if we dont trade him he will be here for his whole contract...

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=wolfeskins]i'm with you PSU21, taylor is the only player with an unexcused absence. i'm quite sure gibbs is more pissed off than he is showing. taylor not returning gibbs' calls is just total disrespect. i agree with you when you suggest some sort of punishment. whether the punishment works or not on "getting through" to taylor it needs to be done in order to set an example and to let the rest of the players know that a single player is not bigger than the team.
i'm really dissapointed in the amount of people on this sight that try to defend taylor. his actions are defenseless. there is no rational reason for him not being at the work outs or for not returning phone calls. i do think the signing of hall is in direct influence of the taylor situation. i think the skins are just preparing for the possibility of taylor not showing up for minicamp.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Wolf :biggthump
I was feeling like a castaway on an island somewhere in the south pacific for most of yesterday.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

Start to worry if manditory camps come up and he's not there. I agree he should return phone calls, but as has been before, a representitive of Taylor (at the least) has been in contact with Redskins park.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=W_REDSKINS]1st off cory Hall is no Sean Taylor... Im not even convinced he would challenge Ryan Clark, Pierson Prioleau or Andre Lott for that matter.[/QUOTE]

While I agree Hall is no Taylor.......Hall was a perennial (sp?) starter. Nobody you mentioned here has ever started as many games at safety as Cory Hall. In fact, Hall has started more games than Clark, Prioleau and Lott combined........so let's not completely disregard Hall's abilities here.

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]If you look at the cap sheets that Crazy Chunk put together on the sites home page, Taylors numbers over his current contract are not really that bad, I think the highest I saw him getting was like 3.5million in year 4 or 5 of his current contract. So I kinda believe that if we dont trade him he will be here for his whole contract...[/QUOTE]

All I can add is that I know he got a 7.2 million signing bonus in the first year, so it actually appears somewhat front-loaded (although I don't know how that 7.2 gets broken down over the years......but he got it all up front).

Re: Hall In, Taylor Out??
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain]I'd be suprised if he didn't make the hall.. Super Bowls with 2 teams in 2 completely different eras, winning one.. A winner for most of his coaching career (Lost is about to come on so I am not going to take the time to research) not to mention his broadcasting prowess. If he somehow gets to the Super Bowl with the Chiefs (which I completely doubt by the way) he's a lead pipe lock.. Don't forget he's a media darling and they are the ones who vote..

Getting into a coaches doghouse in May and doing something midseason to get benched are completely different entities.. Once the season starts you are on their time, in May, you are on your own time.[/QUOTE]

First, you make a good point about May v. Mid-season.

Vermeil: Even I was a little surprised to find that his career win/loss record is only 110 wins / 103 losses (52% winning percentage) with a post-season record of 6-5. I know he's a media sweetheart, but there's no way that record gets you into the hall.

There are currently only 20 coaches in the HOF right now. I'll list the only ones to have coached arguably in the modern area (since 1980):
(all regular season records)
Joe Gibbs: 130-70
Bud Grant: 158-96-5
Tom Landry: 250-162-6
Marv Levy: 143-112
Chuck Noll: 193-148-1
Don Shula: 328-156-6
Bill Walsh: 92-59-1

Aside from their records, you can tie each of the above names to specific teams that were dominant for at least a decade. I don't even know what team Vermeil would be inducted under? Eagles? because he was there the longest? Rams? because he won with them? Cheifs? Ok, obviously not, but the point is there is no way you can put Dick Vermeil's name up there with that list. Just no way IMO.

Add to that all the coaches that are in line ahead of Vermeil (record and/or accomplishment wise):
Bill Cowher
Mike Ditka
Mike Holmgren
John Madden
Bill Parcells
Dan Reeves
Marty Shottenheimer
Mike Shanahan