Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Skinzman;1086953]
The whole Rex argument is rather funny, since he was given one of those defenses once and went to a SB. Dilfer actually won one with one of those defenses. KC may be similar, but until we can allow our QB to play within a game plan and not go out there with the mentality that we have to score 50 points to win, then anyone we get to play back there will do the same thing. Go for 50 by taking chances and make a ton of mistakes.
[/quote]

So you want to count on building one of the best defenses of all time to win a super bowl? That's harder to do than it is to find a QB.

Dilfer won because of that dominant defense, and Rex was carried to the Super Bowl by a dominant defense. Neither of those teams have been able to duplicate that defensive performance since. The Ravens pulled off a return to the SB with a better QB (who got hot at the right time).

We get your point, you need a complete team. But it's so hard to put together a team dominant enough to carry an average QB.

Cousins is a valuable backup. We might even get someone to bite on a 2nd or 3rd rounder in a trade. We shouldn't kid ourselves that he'll be anything more.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Schneed10;1087023]So then explain to me why Andrew Luck, Andy Dalton, Russell Wilson, RG3, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and so many others never had a clunker of a game like that in their rookie seasons?

Because I look at QBs like this: if you don't have a chance to be one of the best then you're not the answer.

Every QB in the league can carve up a defense if he's given time to throw and his receivers are capable of getting open. See Foles, Nick circa 2013, Grossman, Rex circa 2006, McCown, Josh circa 2013. What separates the championship-capable QBs from the rest is how they perform under pressure. Can they escape, can they elude, can they get rid of the ball quickly, do they make sound decisions under pressure?

Foles is being exposed behind that line. So is Cousins. See, Kirk Cousins is a guy that if you can protect him all season, he might be able to get you to the playoffs. But once there and you're facing better pass rushes, he won't get you past the first round because even the best line is going to give up some pressure. That's not the answer. I don't think handling pressure is something you get better at. QBs are either born with a knack for handling pressure or they weren't - it's a personality thing. Do you get frazzled and anxious or don't you. That's why we see some young QBs succeed and others do what Kirk did.[/quote]

Hmmm...Rivers keeps getting better and it is his 10th year. I think a lot of what you are saying is "crystal balling".


1. Philip Rivers, quarterback, San Diego. He just keeps getting better. Building on last year’s 5% improvement in completion percentage—stunning for a 10-year vet—Rivers came back after a one-point loss to unbeaten Arizona to strafe three straight foes, most impressivly leading the Chargers to 30 points in a Week 2 win over Seattle. The thing you notice about Rivers now is that his confidence isn’t getting him in trouble the way it did under Norv Turner—he’s forcing very few passes. He’s a 74.5% passer during the three-game streak, with no interceptions.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=mredskins;1087025]Hmmm...Rivers keeps getting better and it is his 10th year. I think a lot of what you are saying is "crystal balling".


1. Philip Rivers, quarterback, San Diego. He just keeps getting better. Building on last year’s 5% improvement in completion percentage—stunning for a 10-year vet—Rivers came back after a one-point loss to unbeaten Arizona to strafe three straight foes, most impressivly leading the Chargers to 30 points in a Week 2 win over Seattle. The thing you notice about Rivers now is that his confidence isn’t getting him in trouble the way it did under Norv Turner—he’s forcing very few passes. He’s a 74.5% passer during the three-game streak, with no interceptions.[/quote]

Rivers is such a good QB. Love watching that guy play.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Schneed10;1087023]So then explain to me why Andrew Luck, Andy Dalton, Russell Wilson, RG3,[B] Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers,[/B] and so many others never had a clunker of a game like that in their rookie seasons?

Because I look at QBs like this: if you don't have a chance to be one of the best then you're not the answer.

Every QB in the league can carve up a defense if he's given time to throw and his receivers are capable of getting open. See Foles, Nick circa 2013, Grossman, Rex circa 2006, McCown, Josh circa 2013. What separates the championship-capable QBs from the rest is how they perform under pressure. Can they escape, can they elude, can they get rid of the ball quickly, do they make sound decisions under pressure?

Foles is being exposed behind that line. So is Cousins. See, Kirk Cousins is a guy that if you can protect him all season, he might be able to get you to the playoffs. But once there and you're facing better pass rushes, he won't get you past the first round because even the best line is going to give up some pressure. That's not the answer. I don't think handling pressure is something you get better at. QBs are either born with a knack for handling pressure or they weren't - it's a personality thing. Do you get frazzled and anxious or don't you. That's why we see some young QBs succeed and others do what Kirk did.[/quote]

Both of them didn't play their rookie season.

Manning's first three games were terrible, 8 ints 2 touchdowns. Andrew Luck's rookie season had stretches where he threw 5 interceptions and only 3 touchdown passes.

Give Kirk a chance.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=donofriose;1087031]
Give Kirk a chance.[/quote]

There's no choice but to do anything but for the next six weeks.

But I'm not expecting to find a hero. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes up.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Schneed10;1087035]There's no choice but to do anything but for the next six weeks.

But I'm not expecting to find a hero. All I'm saying is don't get your hopes up.[/quote]

I would agree. Griffin was high hope for me and now that is pretty much over.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

Guys,

It all starts up front. I don't care who the quarterback is, ultimately, you win and lose based upon your protections. We all know how porous that offensive line is.

I subscribe to the theory that a great offensive line creates a domino effect across the board. With a great offensive line, you can control the clock, you can wear down opposing defenses, and you can have time to set up the big plays downfield. Moreover, you can keep your defense rested on the side lines, and healthy.

A great offensive line can do more to cover up deficiencies on the other side of the ball, as well as who your quarterback is, than the other way around in my opinion.

Put Kirk Cousins or RGIII behind a great offensive line, and either are good enough to take you deep into the playoffs. That is where, if I'm the GM, I'm placing all of my attentions on next offseason. That offensive line is going to have to be greatly upgraded for any quarterback to be successful in Washington. I don't understand why the offensive line has been basically ignored all these years. Seems like we draft one great lineman, with nobody else anywhere close to him in regards to talent, and no depth behind him. Makes no sense to me.

Mark Rypien would have never sniffed the playoffs behind this offensive line.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=skinsguy;1087040]Guys,

It all starts up front. I don't care who the quarterback is, ultimately, you win and lose based upon your protections. We all know how porous that offensive line is.

I subscribe to the theory that a great offensive line creates a domino effect across the board. With a great offensive line, you can control the clock, you can wear down opposing defenses, and you can have time to set up the big plays downfield. Moreover, you can keep your defense rested on the side lines, and healthy.

A great offensive line can do more to cover up deficiencies on the other side of the ball, as well as who your quarterback is, than the other way around in my opinion.

Put Kirk Cousins or RGIII behind a great offensive line, and either are good enough to take you deep into the playoffs. That is where, if I'm the GM, I'm placing all of my attentions on next offseason. That offensive line is going to have to be greatly upgraded for any quarterback to be successful in Washington. I don't understand why the offensive line has been basically ignored all these years. Seems like we draft one great lineman, with nobody else anywhere close to him in regards to talent, and no depth behind him. Makes no sense to me.

Mark Rypien would have never sniffed the playoffs behind this offensive line.[/quote]



Id like to know why we dont have the ability to draft olinemen and then coach them up into starters. We spent alot of draft picks on back ups...that shit needs to change. Bruce, talent evaluators in the fo and the coaches need to answer for those fuck ups.

i hope to god we play both Long and Moses durning this losing season to see what they have. Experience is key, especially along the oline. Legrimace needs to play as well.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Schneed10;1087024]So you want to count on building one of the best defenses of all time to win a super bowl? That's harder to do than it is to find a QB.

Dilfer won because of that dominant defense, and Rex was carried to the Super Bowl by a dominant defense. Neither of those teams have been able to duplicate that defensive performance since. The Ravens pulled off a return to the SB with a better QB (who got hot at the right time).

We get your point, you need a complete team. But it's so hard to put together a team dominant enough to carry an average QB.

Cousins is a valuable backup. We might even get someone to bite on a 2nd or 3rd rounder in a trade. We shouldn't kid ourselves that he'll be anything more.[/quote]

I never said to only care about defense. This is a circular argument. It is very hard to put together a dominant team to carry an average QB. Its also hard to have anything other than an average QB when you dont have a good team around him.

We cant keep trying to find that guy at QB just to ruin the guy behind what we put on the field. We will never develop a QB unless we improve the product around him. It doesnt matter if we make Kirk Cousins the long term starter if we are going to keep fielding the teams that we do. Both RG3 and Kirk would be much farther along in their development if we could protect them and keep them from having to score 40 points just for a chance to win. Both of them are going to take chances knowing that even with scoring 40, we can still easily lose the game.

When the mantra is we need our QB to match the play of Tom Brady just to have a chance at the playoffs, then we need to do something different at other positions, and not just care about the QB position. Which was my point, we need more than just a QB to win.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=skinsguy;1087040]Guys,

It all starts up front. I don't care who the quarterback is, ultimately, you win and lose based upon your protections. We all know how porous that offensive line is.

I subscribe to the theory that a great offensive line creates a domino effect across the board. With a great offensive line, you can control the clock, you can wear down opposing defenses, and you can have time to set up the big plays downfield. Moreover, you can keep your defense rested on the side lines, and healthy.

A great offensive line can do more to cover up deficiencies on the other side of the ball, as well as who your quarterback is, than the other way around in my opinion.

Put Kirk Cousins or RGIII behind a great offensive line, and either are good enough to take you deep into the playoffs. That is where, if I'm the GM, I'm placing all of my attentions on next offseason. That offensive line is going to have to be greatly upgraded for any quarterback to be successful in Washington. I don't understand why the offensive line has been basically ignored all these years. Seems like we draft one great lineman, with nobody else anywhere close to him in regards to talent, and no depth behind him. Makes no sense to me.

Mark Rypien would have never sniffed the playoffs behind this offensive line.[/quote]

This and them some. You win in the trenches. Protect your QB and sack the other teams QB. This is what won 3 SB's here. I look at Seattle right now and they kind of remind me of some of the old Redskin teams. Part of the problem I think is we simply don't have a blueprint.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Chico23231;1087043]Id like to know why we dont have the ability to draft olinemen and then coach them up into starters. We spent alot of draft picks on back ups...that shit needs to change. Bruce, talent evaluators in the fo and the coaches need to answer for those fuck ups.

i hope to god we play both Long and Moses durning this losing season to see what they have. Experience is key, especially along the oline. Legrimace needs to play as well.[/quote]

That is where we saw the genius of Bobby Beathard back in the day. He was able to find great talent through free agency and the draft. He helped Buges build that great offensive line that the 'skins enjoyed having throughout the 80's. And even later on, the 'skins were able to draft a Jim Lachey to compliment guys like Jacoby, Grimm, and Bostic. But the biggest thing was not only were these guys solid, but they had staying power. That offensive line rarely changed except for the gradual change from '81 to '91. There were no wholesale changed to that offensive line. Consistency, continuity, and solid talent is what drove Washington throughout the 80's, and it all started up front.

I think the issues are, however, that you don't see a plethora of great offensive linemen in the draft. You might be able to pick up a guy here or there, but it takes awhile to really get a solid offensive line built. And you have to take some skilled players as well. At least the Redskins, for the moment, are pretty good at the skilled positions. They can focus completely on the offensive line and the secondary.

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

And I know I'm speaking in terms of the offseason already and we're only four games into the season, but being 1-3 kind of makes you think you're in trouble. Even if the skins were 4-0 at this point, I'd probably still consider building that offensive line up. I want RGIII to have so much time in the pocket that he literally gets bored holding onto the ball (well of course I'd want him to throw it to Jackson!)

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=skinsguy;1087059]That is where we saw the genius of Bobby Beathard back in the day. He was able to find great talent through free agency and the draft. He helped Buges build that great offensive line that the 'skins enjoyed having throughout the 80's. And even later on, the 'skins were able to draft a Jim Lachey to compliment guys like Jacoby, Grimm, and Bostic. But the biggest thing was not only were these guys solid, but they had staying power. That offensive line rarely changed except for the gradual change from '81 to '91. There were no wholesale changed to that offensive line. Consistency, continuity, and solid talent is what drove Washington throughout the 80's, and it all started up front.

I think the issues are, however, that you don't see a plethora of great offensive linemen in the draft. You might be able to pick up a guy here or there, but it takes awhile to really get a solid offensive line built. And you have to take some skilled players as well. At least the Redskins, for the moment, are pretty good at the skilled positions. They can focus completely on the offensive line and the secondary.[/quote]

Jim Lachey was not a Redskins pick. The Chargers drafted him, sent him to the Raiders, and Bobby Beathard traded QB Jay Schroeder to get him. At the time I thought that was a lousy deal, Schroeder was a good QB. Goes to show 2 things: I didn't know much about judging football talent then, and I haven't learned much since...

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

It's good to meet an honest man.......

Re: Griffin Out For Undetermined Time, It's Cousins Time
 

[quote=Hog1;1087083]It's good to meet an honest man.......[/quote]

I agree 100%, but if we can see it why cant the Skins?