Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=mooby;1364451]Yeah I disagree with all of our old and new elected leaders on this. I support Israel's right to defend itself, but that doesn't include killing civilians who want nothing to do with that conflict.[/quote]

Same, Netanyahu has got to go.

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[quote=mooby;1364451]Yeah I disagree with all of our old and new elected leaders on this. I support Israel's right to defend itself, but that doesn't include killing civilians who want nothing to do with that conflict.[/quote]

Have they killed any civilians that have nothing to do with the conflict? I'm just pointing out there is a distinction. The Iranian shootdown of the Ukrainian passenger plane in Tehran a few years back was an example of killing civilians with nothing to do with the conflict. But the civilians killed in Gaza have a lot to do with the Gaza conflict. Hamas specifically uses them as part of their defensive tactics, as human shields. As for [B]not wanting[/B] anything to do with it the vast majority of the civilian adults actively support Hamas in Gaza. With a few exceptions (you will always find war criminal activity in any war) all of Israeli targeting has been legal and within the rules of war (Yes there are rules), while virtually none of Hamas's activities would.

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I highly doubt creating IDF safe zones and then killing people inside safe zones is legal in the rules of war. I doubt targeting aid workers bringing food that once again was approved by IDF is legal. Lets be honest the rules of war are really just guidelines and not actual rules a nation has to follow. The IDf is very guide at killing innocent people and then saying "my bad"

Here is another example: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/10/un-says-lives-of-staff-endangered-in-israeli-halt-of-gaza-polio-vaccine-convoy[/url]

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[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1364459]I highly doubt creating IDF safe zones and then killing people inside safe zones is legal in the rules of war. I doubt targeting aid workers bringing food that once again was approved by IDF is legal. Lets be honest the rules of war are really just guidelines and not actual rules a nation has to follow. The IDf is very guide at killing innocent people and then saying "my bad"

Here is another example: [url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/10/un-says-lives-of-staff-endangered-in-israeli-halt-of-gaza-polio-vaccine-convoy[/url][/quote]

No actually they are rules that have to be followed. If you break them you can be prosecuted. (BTW in your example nothing I read would have violated those rules). Problem is most people don't understand those rules which leads to wild claims of war crimes being committed by those following the rules while ignoring the actual war criminals who are violating those rules.

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Good to know violating humans rights is allowed in war and you can be excused. Kind of like a doctors note. So American citizens visiting their family and delivering aid is okay and Israel shouldn't be held accountable in your book?

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[quote=nonniey;1364454][B]Have they killed any civilians that have nothing to do with the conflict?[/B] I'm just pointing out there is a distinction. The Iranian shootdown of the Ukrainian passenger plane in Tehran a few years back was an example of killing civilians with nothing to do with the conflict. But the civilians killed in Gaza have a lot to do with the Gaza conflict. Hamas specifically uses them as part of their defensive tactics, as human shields. As for [B]not wanting[/B] anything to do with it the vast majority of the civilian adults actively support Hamas in Gaza. With a few exceptions (you will always find war criminal activity in any war) all of Israeli targeting has been legal and within the rules of war (Yes there are rules), while virtually none of Hamas's activities would.[/quote]

They have killed Women and Children for God's sake!

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[quote=Giantone;1364469]They have killed Women and Children for God's sake![/quote]

Who are being used as human shields.

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[quote=nonniey;1364478]Who are being used as human shields.[/quote]

"who have nothing to do with the Conflict".

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[quote=Giantone;1364483]"who have nothing to do with the Conflict".[/quote]
Your definition of what is and not part of a conflict is very puzzling.

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[quote=nonniey;1364495]Your definition of what is and not part of a conflict is very puzzling.[/quote]

JHC, this coming from a person who wrote and I quote"Have they killed any civilians that have nothing to do with the conflict? " end quote. Ever hear two wrongs don't make a right?

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Have they?

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[quote=nonniey;1364501]Have they?[/quote]

Women and Children .

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[quote=Giantone;1364469]They have killed Women and Children for God's sake![/quote]

One of the most unethical military branches in the world over the last 40 years.

Bombed a former school functioning as a refugee center and killed 12 civilians AND 6 UN workers, but to the IDF a kill is a kill is a kill. Although I have heard the IDF does have an exchange rate I am not sure how many humanitarian workers they have to kill to equal one hamas soldier.

Moved refugees to a safe zone and then bomb that safe zone not once but three times. Using bombs on tents, think about it not a hard structure bombs on tents, in an area they control if only they had a better way to find Hamas hiding among the refugees. It is unbelievable they can get away with this. So amoral.

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[url]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-authorizes-ukraine-use-us-long-range-missiles-strike-inside-russia-report[/url]

Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US long-range missiles to strike inside Russia

Doing this on the way out of office. Was this done for political purposes? It must be as there can’t be any other reason why it was not done sooner.

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[quote=nonniey;1364478]Who are being used as human shields.[/quote]

It's done by design. They figure they can get people's support if they see women/children dying on their TV.

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[quote=Chico23231;1367897][url]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-authorizes-ukraine-use-us-long-range-missiles-strike-inside-russia-report[/url]

Biden authorizes Ukraine to use US long-range missiles to strike inside Russia

Doing this on the way out of office. Was this done for political purposes? It must be as there can’t be any other reason why it was not done sooner.[/quote]

Biden knows that Trump is about to hand Ukraine to Russia on a silver platter so might as well let them fight.

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Clearly not about getting hostages back:
[url]https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-will-veto-un-security-council-resolution-gaza-war-its-current-form-says-2024-11-20/[/url]

Clearly not about ending war or about Israel defending itself
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/20/bernie-sanders-israel-gaza-resolution[/url]


Clearly about genocide

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Syria war restart is getting interesting. Another blow to Iran and Russia if troops push close to Damascus and force a regime change. Iran corridor to Lebanon could be cut.

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[quote=Chico23231;1368800]Syria war restart is getting interesting. Another blow to Iran and Russia if troops push close to Damascus and force a regime change. Iran corridor to Lebanon could be cut.[/quote]

It certainly is in our interests to have that happen, the downside is potentially big - the possibility of an actual genocide (unlike the stupid claims of what Israel is doing in Gaza) against minorities (Shia, Alawites and Christians). We probably need to support our Kurdish and other western supported rebels to seize as much territory as possible to counter this.

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[quote=nonniey;1368812]It certainly is in our interests to have that happen, the downside is potentially big - the possibility of an actual genocide (unlike the stupid claims of what Israel is doing in Gaza) against minorities (Shia, Alawites and Christians). We probably need to support our Kurdish and other western supported rebels to seize as much territory as possible to counter this.[/quote]

Think about just how bad it’s been for Iran since Oct 7 Isreal attack

1. Hamas is in shambles and its leadership has been eliminated. A proxy of Iran
2. Hezbollah entire leadership has been eliminated, infrastructure destroyed, thousands of soldiers killed and mentally have been set back years. Oh they agreed to move back beyond the river. An Iran proxy
3 trump has been elected, an Iran hawk and the appeasement strategy of Biden is gone. They immediately cancelled reprisals attacks versus Israel
4. Syria rebels now look to have Damascus surrounded and Iran reportedly have negotiated their militias safe retreat with the rebels. Iran caught flat footed and in retreat. There direct access to Lebonon is gone.

Iran made major miscalculation. They thought Israel would roll over or let this go? Jokes on them

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Speaking of Trump, not exactly sure how to unpackage this incoherent mess:

[url]https://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1865434273953509462[/url]

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[quote=hail2commanders;1368816]Speaking of Trump, not exactly sure how to unpackage this incoherent mess:

[url]https://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1865434273953509462[/url][/quote]

Funny he blames Obama yet there have been 2 other Presidents since Obama and he is one of them, he is a DA.

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[quote=hail2commanders;1368816]Speaking of Trump, not exactly sure how to unpackage this incoherent mess:

[url]https://x.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1865434273953509462[/url][/quote]

Obama left the Middle East in shambles, Americans were dying from Isis inspired attacks all across the country, isis controlled a large territory in Iraq and Syria committing actual genocide against ethic minorities and fellow Muslims, and Obama administration were appeasing Iran allowing houthis in yeman to take power, supporting attacks against the saudis and other proxy militias were allowed to attack Americans

Trump did a much better job in the Middle East than Obama…it’s laughable to suggest otherwise.

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In the tweet, Trump suggests that Obama shouldve held the red line (which at the time folks like Lindsay Graham were warning against getting involved), but at the end of the tweet, Trump says we dont have a dog in the fight. Also says Russia cant do anything there because they are bogged down in Ukraine.

An incoherent mess of a tweet.

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[quote=nonniey;1368812]It certainly is in our interests to have that happen, the downside is potentially big - the possibility of an actual genocide (unlike the stupid claims of what Israel is doing in Gaza) against minorities (Shia, Alawites and Christians). We probably need to support our Kurdish and other western supported rebels to seize as much territory as possible to counter this.[/quote]

Still self rationalizing the death of 40,000 Palestinian women and children I see. I know you are too intelligent to actually believe Israel is innocent

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[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1368820]Still self rationalizing the death of 40,000 Palestinian women and children I see. I know you are too intelligent to actually believe Israel is innocent[/quote]

No just pointing out 40K Palestinian women and children (I guess the latest narrative is that only women and children have been killed there now?) does not equate to a genocide. Claiming it is really takes away what a genocide is and undermines attempts at pointing out actual genocides (The old cry wolf effect).

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Russia is abandoning it's bases in Syria. Assad has fled. Astounding how much Russia has lost, in land, military strength and respect, and now actual military bases due to it's over reach in Ukraine. I hope Trump recognizes Russia's increasing weakness and bullies them like he does his political opponents

Sent from my SM-S711U using Tapatalk

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[quote=nonniey;1368821]No just pointing out 40K Palestinian women and children (I guess the latest narrative is that only women and children have been killed there now?) does not equate to a genocide. Claiming it is really takes away what a genocide is and undermines attempts at pointing out actual genocides (The old cry wolf effect).[/quote]

It's not the narrative 70% of all victims have been women and children that is well documented. This also clearly fits the definition of a genocide:

a. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
b. Deliberately inflicting conditions of life that are intended to destroy the group
c. Refusing the movement of medicine and food to a group
d. Intentionally targeting and killing humanitarian aide workers and the buildings that hold those services.

If it is not genocide could we at least agree it is colonialization via murder?

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[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1368857]It's not the narrative 70% of all victims have been women and children that is well documented. This also clearly fits the definition of a genocide:

a. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
b. Deliberately inflicting conditions of life that are intended to destroy the group
c. Refusing the movement of medicine and food to a group
d. Intentionally targeting and killing humanitarian aide workers and the buildings that hold those services.

If it is not genocide could we at least agree it is colonialization via murder?[/quote]

And again, it goes back to deliberate tactics of HAMAs to maximize casualties within the Palestinian population. HAMAS intent was to prevent targeting of their assets by surrounding those assets with civilians. Israel made the decision not to acquiesce to those tactics which resulted in the large number of civilian casualties. As it wasn't the civilians who were the targets a, b and d above don't apply, and the claim of c. is a bit dubious as movement of medicine and food to Palestinians has occurred (with that also being targeted/restricted when HAMAS uses it for their purposes. (Here is a historical analogy - The Lusitania was sunk with heavy loss of civilian life - she was in fact carrying arms and thus was a legal target - politically it was a disaster for Germany as it contributed to the eventual US entry into the war - but still she was a legal target and ultimately no charges were brought against any Germans for her sinking).

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;1368829]Russia is abandoning it's bases in Syria. Assad has fled. Astounding how much Russia has lost, in land, military strength and respect, and now actual military bases due to it's over reach in Ukraine. [B]I hope Trump recognizes Russia's increasing weakness and bullies them like he does his political opponents[/B]

Sent from my SM-S711U using Tapatalk[/quote]

This seems incredibly laughable given how Trump has repeatedly praised and deferred to Putin at every opportunity.

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[quote=nonniey;1368862]And again, it goes back to deliberate tactics of HAMAs to maximize casualties within the Palestinian population. HAMAS intent was to prevent targeting of their assets by surrounding those assets with civilians. Israel made the decision not to acquiesce to those tactics which resulted in the large number of civilian casualties. As it wasn't the civilians who were the targets a, b and d above don't apply, and the claim of c. is a bit dubious as movement of medicine and food to Palestinians has occurred (with that also being targeted/restricted when HAMAS uses it for their purposes. (Here is a historical analogy - The Lusitania was sunk with heavy loss of civilian life - she was in fact carrying arms and thus was a legal target - politically it was a disaster for Germany as it contributed to the eventual US entry into the war - but still she was a legal target and ultimately no charges were brought against any Germans for her sinking).[/quote]

I'd feel a lot more confident in this reply if HAMAS didn't agree to the cease fire deal that Israel had put forth and then Israel decide to renege on it back in July. There are plenty of other incidents which strike me as criminal as well. Such as when Israel designates safe zones for Palestinians and then bombs those areas or repeatedly raiding food aid distribution and throwing out the food despite knowing there are no terrorists there. I feel like over the course of the last year Israel has altered their tactics to become far more aggressive with the goal of taking land, their motives have shifted.

What are your thoughts on them moving into the Golan Heights buffer zone and then further into Syrian territory?

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[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1368902]I'd feel a lot more confident in this reply if HAMAS didn't agree to the cease fire deal that Israel had put forth and then Israel decide to renege on it back in July. There are plenty of other incidents which strike me as criminal as well. Such as when Israel designates safe zones for Palestinians and then bombs those areas or repeatedly raiding food aid distribution and throwing out the food despite knowing there are no terrorists there. I feel like over the course of the last year Israel has altered their tactics to become far more aggressive with the goal of taking land, their motives have shifted.

What are your thoughts on them moving into the Golan Heights buffer zone and then further into Syrian territory?[/quote]

I'd have to give the later some more thought. If it is temporary probably no major issue (probably).

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Israel is definitely in a tricky issue clearly you don't want a rogue state with their hands on military as your neighbor

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[QUOTE=mooby;1368901]This seems incredibly laughable given how Trump has repeatedly praised and deferred to Putin at every opportunity.[/QUOTE]true, because Trump saw him in a position of strength. but Putin's facade of strength has been severely weakened and trump may realize that.

Sent from my SM-S711U using Tapatalk

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[quote=BaltimoreSkins;1368902]I'd feel a lot more confident in this reply if HAMAS didn't agree to the cease fire deal that Israel had put forth and then Israel decide to renege on it back in July. There are plenty of other incidents which strike me as criminal as well. Such as when Israel designates safe zones for Palestinians and then bombs those areas or repeatedly raiding food aid distribution and throwing out the food despite knowing there are no terrorists there. I feel like over the course of the last year Israel has altered their tactics to become far more aggressive with the goal of taking land, their motives have shifted.

What are your thoughts on them moving into the Golan Heights buffer zone and then further into Syrian territory?[/quote]

Why were Palestinians taking part in the Oct 7 attack? It wasn’t just Hamas but citizens who supported the attack to the tune of over 70% in favor of it. They aren’t innocent, they could have supported the West Bank party in 2007, they chose Hamas. Why didn’t Jordan or Egypt open the border to help? Well they have before and know Palestinians are terrorists. I’m sorry, but this is a war Hamas brought and they are only responsible for every single Palestinian death.

Obviously Israel is correct in taking defensive positions Golan and can’t rely on UN. We have seen how the UN enforced the zone in Lebanon and allowed Hezbollah to operate without enforcement.

I would advise the Syrian rebels to tread lightly with Israel.

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[quote=Chico23231;1368913]Why were Palestinians taking part in the Oct 7 attack? It wasn’t just Hamas but citizens who supported the attack to the tune of over 70% in favor of it. They aren’t innocent, they could have supported the West Bank party in 2007, they chose Hamas. Why didn’t Jordan or Egypt open the border to help? Well they have before and know Palestinians are terrorists. I’m sorry, but this is a war Hamas brought and they are only responsible for every single Palestinian death.

Obviously Israel is correct in taking defensive positions Golan and can’t rely on UN. We have seen how the UN enforced the zone in Lebanon and allowed Hezbollah to operate without enforcement.

I would advise the Syrian rebels to tread lightly with Israel.[/quote]

Do you really think what is happening in Gaza right now has anything to do with Oct 7th? If it did why doesn't Israel have the hostages back? HAMAS offered them up in July. HAMAS agreed to the ceasefire demands by Israel. This should have ended 6 months ago but Israel has decided to continue its operation. Call it what you want but to me that is amoral. Now we see they are moving settlers into Syria. More of the same from the worst ally we have ever had. Kills journalists to hide the truth, kills Americans and we send them billions. Just an awful government if you ask me.

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One thing I don't get is the willingness of releasing HAMAs prisoners in exchange for hostages. That essentially undermines one of the primary goals of Israel which is the destruction of HAMAs. If I was Israel, I'd demand the release of all the hostages in exchange for their withdrawal from most of GAZA Israel would keep the Egyptian boarder access and a 2 mile buffer in the North. Under no circumstances would I include HAMAs prisoners.

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Interesting article that explains better than I am willing to on targeting.

"....on balance, Israel is performing well below its rules of engagement threshold. Israel's actual combatant-to-civilian death ratio is one of the lowest in modern warfare, approximately one Hamas fighter for two civilians killed....".

[url]https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/america-s-progressives-are-abandoning-the-just-war-tradition-opinion/ar-AA1x2iWF?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=b5350966bd7c4511846b7bee4a9a7512&ei=25[/url]

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Anyone want to bet that trump tries to take credit for the cease fire?

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[quote=Giantone;1371276]Anyone want to bet that trump tries to take credit for the cease fire?[/quote]

Well John Kirby said Trump and Biden teams worked together to get something done. So sounds like a bipartisan effort