re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;514992]Very good article. Good news IMO (although I hope this isn't the dreaded "vote of confidence" that happens before many an axe has been dropped). Cerrato's take on things is spot-on. I wish the "Cerrato's an idiot" crowd would read this article objectively.[/quote]

I agree Sammy. Good article. Let's see how things are handled this year as far as addressing our needs. I still think our draft could turn out to be very good.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;515057]
This offense, Zorns offense, is just as bad as it has been all year. While the league has adapted to Zorn, Zorn hasnt adapted to the league - This is why our offense has gotten WORSE as the season has progressed, not better. Cerrato said Zorn is learning? - where is the evidence of that. Zorn is a clown and needs to go. If we bring in a guy like Holmgren to continue the WCO here, then Campbell needs to go too. He is not a WCO QB and he never will be. he may not even be a QB qualified to start in the NFL.
[/quote]
It's interesting that when you look at Jason Campbell's QB rating numbers it confirms what can be seen about the offense....against good defenses the OL is overmatched. JC has played well this year, he's made a lot of plays either by a quick release or movement in (or out of) the pocket that could've ended in disaster. His turn-overs are down and overall his QB rating is up, despite the OL being in much worse shape than last year. Is he an elite QB, not yet, just as Cerrato mentioned. But it's pretty damn hard to be an effective QB behind and OL that is struggling. Didn't Peyton Manning have troubles early in the year while his OL was battling to overcome injuries and get in a good groove.

I'm so tired of the catch-phrases that get thrown out on the Skins post-game and here as well: "Zorn hasn't adapted", "Zorn's playcalling is terrible"....you try to call an offense at any level with a struggling OL, it's no fun. Has Zorn been perfect, No, but he hasn't been "terrible". On a A-E scale his playcalling has been in the B-C range.

Let's look at reality here, we'll finish either 8-8 or 9-7. A Pete Kendell fumble and a poor first half against CIN don't happen and we're 10-6 or 11-5. This is with a new HC, an unproven young QB, a defense with no real playmakers in the front 7, and a secondary that was questionable in the pre-season.

I'd say the coaching staff and players have probably overachieved this year. We need changes made in both the coaching staff and with player personnel to get better, but firing Cerrato and/or Zorn would be a ridiculously bad move this off-season.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;515069]It's interesting that when you look at Jason Campbell's QB rating numbers it confirms what can be seen about the offense....against good defenses the OL is overmatched. JC has played well this year, he's made a lot of plays either by a quick release or movement in (or out of) the pocket that could've ended in disaster. His turn-overs are down and overall his QB rating is up, despite the OL being in much worse shape than last year. Is he an elite QB, not yet, just as Cerrato mentioned. But it's pretty damn hard to be an effective QB behind and OL that is struggling. Didn't Peyton Manning have troubles early in the year while his OL was battling to overcome injuries and get in a good groove.

I'm so tired of the catch-phrases that get thrown out on the Skins post-game and here as well: "Zorn hasn't adapted", "Zorn's playcalling is terrible"....you try to call an offense at any level with a struggling OL, it's no fun. Has Zorn been perfect, No, but he hasn't been "terrible". On a A-E scale his playcalling has been in the B-C range.

Let's look at reality here, we'll finish either 8-8 or 9-7. A Pete Kendell fumble and a poor first half against CIN don't happen and we're 10-6 or 11-5. This is with a new HC, an unproven young QB, a defense with no real playmakers in the front 7, and a secondary that was questionable in the pre-season.

I'd say the coaching staff and players have probably overachieved this year. We need changes made in both the coaching staff and with player personnel to get better, but firing Cerrato and/or Zorn would be a ridiculously bad move this off-season.[/quote]

I agree with everything you said except for JC becomming an effective QB. He's just not an accurate enough passer and needs his receivers to be really open (2+ steps) when he does hit them for him to ever be a truely effective QB.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=irish;515075]I agree with everything you said except for JC becomming an effective QB. He's just not an accurate enough passer and needs his receivers to be really open (2+ steps) when he does hit them for him to ever be a truely effective QB.[/quote]
if he could learn the sneak the ball in where it needs to be a few times a game we'd be champs

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Cerrato said he is confident Zorn, whom he strongly recommended to team owner Daniel Snyder for the Redskins' head coaching vacancy last winter, is "learning and he's improving. Just how rookie players learn and improve, same type of steps. He's making progress."

On the job training for our head coach, this is a first. A head coaching internship in the NFL. So how many years is he away? 1, 2, 3? Can we send Zorn to night school at the local community college, is NFL head coach part of the curriculum? I've never been anti Cerrato and I think Daniel Snyder is the best owner in football. But if Zorn is not ready to be the head coach of the Redskins then it was a bad hire.

The only progress I want to hear of is that of Phillip Daniels and other players on IR. How's Malcolm Kelly's knee, is it progressing?

My post here is not about retaining nor firing Jim Zorn. I'd like to see the Redskins hire the best possible players and coaches in order to win. For example; our first draft choice in the upcoming draft must be a starter! What we got form Devin Thomas this year set the franchise back, and I don't blame him for that I blame Zorn and his rookie hazing. I think Thomas has a lot of fire and talent and wasn't a bad pick.

We're brining Zorn back, ok fine by me. I just hope his on the job training is complete.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=irish;515075]I agree with everything you said except for JC becomming an effective QB. He's just not an accurate enough passer and needs his receivers to be really open (2+ steps) when he does hit them for him to ever be a truely effective QB.[/quote]You have pretty high standards for quarterbacking then. You're not wrong, but the Redskins are never going to develop a QB who you think is worthy if you want a guy who can avoid interceptions AND throw completions into tight spaces.

There are a few guys who can do what you suggest, but there are 100 million dollar QBs who can't do what you are suggesting. Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, even Favre really don't fall into this category. That category is pretty much Manning, Brady, Rivers. And while Campbell will never be one of those guys, a half decent roster will win a lot of games with Jason Campbell.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;515197]You have pretty high standards for quarterbacking then. You're not wrong, but the Redskins are never going to develop a QB who you think is worthy if you want a guy who can avoid interceptions AND throw completions into tight spaces.

There are a few guys who can do what you suggest, but there are 100 million dollar QBs who can't do what you are suggesting. Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, even Favre really don't fall into this category. That category is pretty much Manning, Brady, Rivers. And while Campbell will never be one of those guys, a half decent roster will win a lot of games with Jason Campbell.[/quote]

Very well said. I think a lot of people who criticize JC forget how difficult it is to even find 32 people in the entire world who can even play the position, let alone play it well. In any given season at most 20 guys will play like legitimate NFL starters. At least 12 teams will be grasping at straws with bums. If you have one of these upper tier guys, and we do, you should count yourself lucky.

Moreover, when you factor in the years of development, draft resources, and money required in grooming a new starter, as well as the uncertain odds that they will even develop into a decent player, it's hard to argue against what we have. Ryan and Flacco seem to have clouded most people's memory of the recent past, in which most QB's, even those drafted in the first round, flop and flop hard.

So in fantasy NFL land I'd take Manning or Matt Ryan over JC. Back in the real world I think we have much more pressing needs on this team to address.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

You have to give Zorn at least 4 years

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Unless Zorny changes up his playbook his coming back isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. Zorn is not the problem, it is the antiquated WCO. I just don't see the WCO being a viable offense since everyone and his cousin ran it back in the 80s-90s. Everyone knows how to effectively counter it.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;515210]Unless Zorny changes up his playbook his coming back isn't going to amount to a hill of beans. Zorn is not the problem, it is the antiquated WCO. I just don't see the WCO being a viable offense since everyone and his cousin ran it back in the 80s-90s. Everyone knows how to effectively counter it.[/quote]

So what about the Eagles? Or the Seahawks? Or the Packers? Or the Bucs? There are plenty of teams still running it and having success.

First off Zorn isn't running a pure WCO, in fact I'm not even sure that exists anymore. His system is based on what Holmgren runs in Seattle with plenty of his own philosophies sprinkled in.

It's pretty naive to think the principles of the WCO are outdated.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I think the question is, do we have the personnel best suited for Zorn's offense? When they were 6-2 the running game was so good that defeciences in the passing game were overlooked. Then O-linemen started getting hurt, and defenses just loaded up the box to key in on Portis.

What's troubling is that Campbell can't really seem to hit certain passes with enough regularity -- the slants, and medium to long passes in the middle of the field just over the LB's. Then there's the matter of how good the receivers are to throw to.

There are still big, big question marks with this offense.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;515217]So what about the Eagles? Or the Seahawks? Or the Packers? Or the Bucs? There are plenty of teams still running it and having success.

First off Zorn isn't running a pure WCO, in fact I'm not even sure that exists anymore. His system is based on what Holmgren runs in Seattle with plenty of his own philosophies sprinkled in.

It's pretty naive to think the principles of the WCO are outdated.[/quote]

I have been down on JC for the last half of the season thinking that he just isn't the right QB for this system. the teams you mentioned all run a version of the WCO and the head coaches are all from the Walsh coaching tree. Every one of these teams and there QBs took a couple of years to get the WCO to perform with success. Hasselback was horrible when he took over as the starting QB for Seattle as well as McNabb. Zorn Knows this system in and out, he just has to get JC and the rest of the offense going in the same direction. I think you will see a vast improvement next season with the WCO here.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;515197]You have pretty high standards for quarterbacking then. You're not wrong, but the Redskins are never going to develop a QB who you think is worthy if you want a guy who can avoid interceptions AND throw completions into tight spaces.

There are a few guys who can do what you suggest, but there are 100 million dollar QBs who can't do what you are suggesting. Roethlisberger, Carson Palmer, even Favre really don't fall into this category. That category is pretty much Manning, Brady, Rivers. And while Campbell will never be one of those guys, a half decent roster will win a lot of games with Jason Campbell.[/quote]

If JC ever became Rothlisberger or Favre the Skins would be incredibly lucky. Heck JC isnt even as good at Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco and they really are rookies. I'm not saying a QB cant make mistakes but JC misses wide open receivers (even Sonny was commenting on that during the Cinn game) that kill drives so forget him threading the needle for a big game changing play.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Beemnseven;515257][B]I think the question is, do we have the personnel best suited for Zorn's offense?[/B] When they were 6-2 the running game was so good that defeciences in the passing game were overlooked. Then O-linemen started getting hurt, and defenses just loaded up the box to key in on Portis.

What's troubling is that Campbell can't really seem to hit certain passes with enough regularity -- the slants, and medium to long passes in the middle of the field just over the LB's. Then there's the matter of how good the receivers are to throw to.

There are still big, big question marks with this offense.[/quote]

With just one offseason under his belt I think it's fair to say he doesn't have all of his guys yet.

Re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SouperMeister;511782]As pissed as I am at Zorn and his absolute inability to ever question his own decisions, getting rid of him would be a disaster for Jason Campbell. Starting over with yet another new offense is not the answer. Address our needs on both lines and you'll see significant improvement for both the O and the D.[/quote]

thats where we need the most help is in the trenches on both sides of the ball. the part i,m really going to keep a close eye on is how patient will synder be...i,m hoping he is real patient and lets this process take it,s course .like most on here i would like to see improvements in personnel in our front office as well...