Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]My argument they don't have to "adapt". Non-smokers can leave a smoke-filled restaurant, and go to a non-smoking restaurant.

According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be [B][I]no[/I][/B] restaurants that a smoker could go to.[/QUOTE]

No one says smokers can't go. Just don't smoke there.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]According to those that favor smoking bans, there would be [B][I]no[/I][/B] restaurants that a smoker could go to.[/quote]

That's fine with me.

I was thinking of backing up my car to a bar or restaurant and just piping the exhaust right into it, hey, the non-exhaust enjoying people could just leave, right?

Let me enjoy my exhaust in peace.

:Smoker:

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=jamf]I hate kissing a smoker...[/QUOTE]

I ain't gonna lie, I'd hit a smoker :spank:

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]No one says smokers can't go. Just don't smoke there.[/QUOTE]

My statement should have read, "there would be no restaurants a smoker could go to [B]and smoke[/B]."

Non-smokers don't have to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

My position is two-fold: the government should not be able to dictate that a private restauranteur cannot allow smoking, or loud music, or serve fatty foods, when no one is forced to go there. Secondly, one class of citizens should not be able to petition the government to outlaw the actions of another class of citizens when everyone has the choice to disassociate themselves from them or leave the premises.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]That's fine with me.

I was thinking of backing up my car to a bar or restaurant and just piping the exhaust right into it, hey, the non-exhaust enjoying people could just leave, right?

Let me enjoy my exhaust in peace.

:Smoker:[/QUOTE]

Though your statement was in jest, (or maybe it wasn't) you cannot take that action upon someone else's property without their consent. You can certainly do it if the property belongs to you, though.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=Beemnseven]My statement should have read, "there would be no restaurants a smoker could go to [B]and smoke[/B]."

Non-smokers don't have to go to a restaurant that allows smoking.

My position is two-fold: the government should not be able to dictate that a private restauranteur cannot allow smoking, or loud music, or serve fatty foods, when no one is forced to go there. Secondly, one class of citizens should not be able to petition the government to outlaw the actions of another class of citizens when everyone has the choice to disassociate themselves from them or leave the premises.[/quote]Very insightful, i never thought of it that way.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Right. You cannot interfere with the rights of someone else. Apart from that, it's a free country -- at least, that's what it's [I]supposed[/I]to be.



The short answer to your question is, why give the government one more reason to intrude into the lives of private property owners?

Now, here’s the long answer. As an example to your point Malcom, let’s use the Department of Health argument -- What's the difference between the government instituting food safety standards and doing the same with smoking?

The difference is that you can protect yourself from second hand smoke (if you're a non-smoker) and first-hand smoke (if you are a smoker): you can leave the restaurant, or you can quit. However, the same is not true of food-borne illnesses. In the latter case, the government is adhering to its legitimate purpose of protecting the rights of life, liberty and property of individuals through force or fraud. Since no one can protect themselves from the hazards of food-borne illnesses, short of not eating out, the government has the responsibility to guard against a threat that an individual otherwise cannot guard him or herself against.

Bottom line, government has the power and the obligation to protect your rights from others. It doesn’t have the power, nor the resources to protect you from yourself.[/QUOTE]

When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=saden1]When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.[/QUOTE]

For public establishments such as schools, post offices, court buildings -- in most cases, you're correct.

But for private businesses, there most certainly are property rights. The government cannot take over a business, instruct it as to what it can sell, or the fashion in which it sells it. The only exception for government intervention is when someone interferes with individual's rights to life, liberty, or property through force or fraud.

Now, certainly, an argument could be made that this country is gradually getting away from this particular free market philosophy with minimum wage laws, handicap access requirements, and civil rights legislation. Thanks to the Supreme Court's ruling in the Kelo [I]v.[/I] New London, Connecticut decision, there's yet another attack on private property rights that clearly marks this country's movement towards the Socialistic philosophy.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection]Well, the government decides a lot of things you can do on business property, so why should smoking not be one of them?[/quote]Ok, thats fine with me so from now on restaurants and bars have a one drink ( 1 beer, or 1 glass of wine,or 1oz of alch) per hour restriction. DUI's kill alot of people every year and alot are from people driving home from bars so now the goverment will regulate this too. People are dying from high blood presure and colesteral and red meat and fried food is to blame so its now against the law to sell red meats and fried foods. My point is that our goverment is taking more and more of our rights every day and if I own a bar and want smokers than thats my right. If I want a bar that is non smoking than that is my right. If the public demand is for non smoking smoking bars than there will be non smking bars. I see more and more non smoking bars everyday.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=saden1]When it comes to public establishments that conduct business there is no such thing as property rights. Specifically, the welfare and rights of the public trumps property rights and that is in fact constitutional.[/quote]Could you please give the part of the constitution which makes this ok.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[QUOTE=firstdown]Could you please give the part of the constitution which makes this ok.[/QUOTE]

Some claim the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause]Equal Protection Clause[/url] of the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution]14th Amendment[/url] law protects smokers from having to stand outside, but who protects people who want to be inside without being subjected to toxic fumes? Simply put, the 14th Amendment is a double edged sword and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]15th[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]19th[/URL] Amendments allows the public/community to decide what their public health needs are.

p.s. Smoking is bad, not smoking is good! Good wins over evil but you can still do evil outside or from the comfort of your home. May the force be with you.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

ive been a smoker on and off for many years. im extremely considerate of nonsmokers even in outside settings, out of respect for their choice to not smoke. i dont smoke in my house or around my kids,ever. mostly i smoke during the day in my truck between jobs, and i do enjoy having a smoke if im out having a drink. i know theres alot of a-hole smokers out there who could care less about non smokers, which i think is ignorant. theres a time and place for everything.we shouldnt open the pandoras box of what should be legal/illegal and how the govt. should/shouldnt get involved. bzness owners should be aloud to make that decision. trust me if a bar/rest. owner can make more money being smoke free...well thats a no brainer. drinking,smoking and many other things should be done responsilby and w/ care. anyway, im going outside to burn one while i try the new heiny lite beer.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=SkinEmAll]anyway, im going outside to burn one while i try the new heiny lite beer.[/quote]

Speaking of that new heineken light, it's pretty damn good!

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=SkinEmAll]trust me if a bar/rest. owner can make more money being smoke free...well thats a no brainer.[/quote]

Exactly, the market should dictate it, not government.

Re: Smoking Laws in NY and NJ
 

[quote=saden1]Some claim the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause"]Equal Protection Clause[/URL] of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]14th Amendment[/URL] law protects smokers from having to stand outside, but who protects people who want to be inside without being subjected to toxic fumes? Simply put, the 14th Amendment is a double edged sword and the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]15th[/URL] and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]19th[/URL] Amendments allows the public/community to decide what their public health needs are.

p.s. Smoking is bad, not smoking is good! Good wins over evil but you can still do evil outside or from the comfort of your home. May the force be with you.[/quote]Thats right one can choose not to go to a Res or bar that allows smoking. I just feel that if there is a demand for nonsmoking bars and res then people will open them or switch to nonsmoking. IT has already started in most areas that Res and bars going to non smoking and if smoking bars and res see a drop in business or a demand from they public they will switch. The goverment just does not need to get involved in the private sector in this matter it will work its self out.