Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[quote=#56fanatic;283019]Where are you getting this? from your expert opinion or fact from somewhere. everywhere I read there are nothing but positives about Dock. everyone thinks he is a hell of a road grading run blocker. One coach said he was a guy that couldn't be bull rushed. Moves well for a guy that big. i have never heard he can't pull. Imagine that all this comes up when he decides to leave.

The team messed this one up. I am not saying 16 million up front isn't high, it is. But we overpay for everyone we sign in FA. Why not pony up some cash for our own players?[/quote]

If you watched any games the past few years you would see pulling wasn't exactly his strongest asset.

Just check his Scouts Inc profile:

2006 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
[B]Grade:[/B] 68 | [URL="http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/features/scouting#key"]Key[/URL]
[B]Alert:[/B] None

[B]Comment:[/B]
Dockery is a big, massive offensive guard who has good size and strength for the position. He has good overall athletic skills and enough versatility to play both OG/OT. In the running game, he is a road grader who best fits a zone-blocking run scheme. He has the ability to come off and get movement in the running game. He can bend and maintain his pad level with good balance and control on both reach and cutoff blocks. He knows how to use his size to position and wall-off between ball carrier and defender when getting position in a short area. He can come off and get movement off combination patterns but struggles at times with his balance and control when maintaining his position on the second level. [B]He can short pull and connect [U]but struggles to play under control off long pulls and in open space.[/U] [/B]He needs to improve his overall consistency and ability to finish late in games in the running game. In the passing game, he can bend his knees, slide and plays with a wide base off a short set. He matches up better vs. power rushers rather than quick inside edge rushers. He has good long arms and can extend out with a strong stab and punch. He does have some stiffness in his hips, which restricts his ability to adjust vs. quick double move inside rushers. He can drop his hips and anchor vs. power but will get top heavy and overextend vs. speed and quickness. Overall, Derrick is still and young ascending player with a good upside to develop into a frontline starting NFL player. He has shown steady improvement with his technique and footwork over the last few years.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

This offseason is reminding me of the nba a few offseasons ago (the cavs gave larry hughes 14/year). i'm glad we didn't resign dock at that figure... even if the market is overpaying, there's no point in screwing your cap for the future. the salaries won't be as bloated for FAs every season.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

not worth steve hutchinson money

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

If you think Dockery's deal is inflated, check what the 49ers gave up for the services of Nate Clements, This is the age of free-agency, and everyone has to over pay.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Just to chime in, if the skins had made this deal, they would be ridiculed from top to bottom by everyone in the league, and lots of folks on this board. The fact is, we can't afford this particular deal for this particular player.

The market for guards is obviously rather inflated right now--teams need o-line help and are flush with cap cash. It's a sellers market. And we don't have the cap space, given our D needs.

Dock is good, and most likely will improve--guess the Bills are betting on the upside there. But recall that Dock had motivation issues and had Buges pushing him, not to mention his best buddy Samuels by his side. Wonder if he'll have the same motivation in Buffalo?

I would have liked to have re-signed Dock last year. But my guess is his agent properly saw where the market was going, and correctly advised his client to wait. Now they are super rich. Best wishes to him, but there was no way we could keep him.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

John Clayton mentioned that the draft was extremely deep along the O-Line this year with potential starters being available as late as the third round. For that kind of money, I say let him go, lets take our chances on the draft.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[quote=squrrelco3;283039]John Clayton mentioned that the draft was extremely deep along the O-Line this year with potential starters being available as late as the third round. For that kind of money, I say let him go, lets take our chances on the draft.[/quote]


One small problem there. 1st...5th - 7th. no 2nd 3rd or 4th picks.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

I agree that Doc is not in the same class at Hutchison . but I would rather pay him 16 mill than AA & B Loyd the 20 mill that they got , * the two draft picks for Loyd . Hope Pucillo can be a nasty MF in that spot . This Organization better get working on Cooley and Taylor , although I would be shocked if Taylor stayed in DC after this year .

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[quote=Mattyk72;283023]If you watched any games the past few years you would see pulling wasn't exactly his strongest asset.

Just check his Scouts Inc profile:

2006 Scouting Report - Scouts Inc.
[B]Grade:[/B] 68 | [URL="http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/features/scouting#key"]Key[/URL]
[B]Alert:[/B] None

[B]Comment:[/B]
Dockery is a big, massive offensive guard who has good size and strength for the position. He has good overall athletic skills and enough versatility to play both OG/OT. In the running game, he is a road grader who best fits a zone-blocking run scheme. He has the ability to come off and get movement in the running game. He can bend and maintain his pad level with good balance and control on both reach and cutoff blocks. He knows how to use his size to position and wall-off between ball carrier and defender when getting position in a short area. He can come off and get movement off combination patterns but struggles at times with his balance and control when maintaining his position on the second level. [B]He can short pull and connect [U]but struggles to play under control off long pulls and in open space.[/U] [/B]He needs to improve his overall consistency and ability to finish late in games in the running game. In the passing game, he can bend his knees, slide and plays with a wide base off a short set. He matches up better vs. power rushers rather than quick inside edge rushers. He has good long arms and can extend out with a strong stab and punch. He does have some stiffness in his hips, which restricts his ability to adjust vs. quick double move inside rushers. He can drop his hips and anchor vs. power but will get top heavy and overextend vs. speed and quickness. Overall, Derrick is still and young ascending player with a good upside to develop into a frontline starting NFL player. He has shown steady improvement with his technique and footwork over the last few years.[/quote]


Out of all that, I would say the plus side HIGHLY outweighs the fact he struggles pulling. Do you think he has reached his highest potential? I dont think so. Every offensive lineman will have something that sticks out as far as something that can be improved on. no question. my biggest point is the last sentence of that statement. young ascending player with good upside to develop into a frontline starting NFL player. he has shown steady improvement with his technique and footwork over the last few years. Look, I dont think he was worth 16 up front, I wont argue that. But do you think we could have met somewhere in the middle? maybe showed him we REALLY wanted him? I would maybe feel better about it if we would have at least pushed a little harder. I never even heard what we were offering. And going by how quick he jumped at the Bills, I would imagine our offer was not even in the ball park of "OK, thats a start, lets see where we can go from here"

I know the 16 million up front for a player that COULD develop into a front line starter is a lot, but like I said he is NOT a fool for taking it, I think we could have been a little more aggressive like we are with outside FA's.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

One thing we need to all get used to: contract values are going to go up every year. The contracts players are getting this year are going to be dwarfed next year.

That said, even in this new world order of higher contracts, Dockery was not worth a $16 million signing bonus. Smart move by the team in exercising restraint. The Bills can have him at that price.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[quote=Longtimefan;283033]If you think Dockery's deal is inflated, check what the 49ers gave up for the services of Nate Clements, This is the age of free-agency, and everyone has to over pay.[/quote]

Yea the BILLS ARE DUMB.

The NINERS ARE DUMBER!

We need a solid D line FIRST, THAT HAS TO BE PRIORITY ONE, we can get by just fine without Dock.

Glad to see the guys up front set a limit and stuck to it. We HAVE to stop OVERPAYING. You can't reasonably sign a dock for any more jack than you have spent in guys like Rabash, Jansen and the rest of the OL PERIOD

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

From Pasta:

[url=http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=sports&id=5087362]ABC30.com: Bills reach an agreement with Redskins' OG Dockery[/url]

"Buffalo on Friday night reached an agreement with four-year veteran Derrick Dockery, who had played his entire career with the Washington Redskins, on a seven-year, $49 million contract, ESPN.com learned.

The total contract equals the deal that "transition" free agent Steve Hutchinson signed with the Minnesota Vikings last year, a league record for a guard. The contract includes $18.5 million in guarantees and will pay Dockery $23 million in the first three seasons."

Jeez. $18.5M guaranteed and the same money as Hutchinson? Too much for my blood.

If the Skins signed him for the same amount, I bet 95% of the Warpathers would be cursing.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[quote=djnemo65;282951]I am sorry, anyone who criticizes us not resigning Dockery at this price is smoking crack. Hutchinson got the same deal last year, and he's maybe the best guard of the last 10 years. Dockery is a nice player who is still developing, but guard isn't even that valuable a position. Teams win the superbowl all the time with grunts plugged in at either side.[/quote]

I agree, no way you give him a contract to be the highest paid guard in the league. everyone said hutchinson was over paid, and hes definitly better.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[QUOTE=#56fanatic;283019]Where are you getting this? from your expert opinion or fact from somewhere. everywhere I read there are nothing but positives about Dock. everyone thinks he is a hell of a road grading run blocker. One coach said he was a guy that couldn't be bull rushed. Moves well for a guy that big. i have never heard he can't pull. Imagine that all this comes up when he decides to leave.

The team messed this one up. I am not saying 16 million up front isn't high, it is. But we overpay for everyone we sign in FA. Why not pony up some cash for our own players?[/QUOTE]

In addition, to the prior quote - Clinton critiqued the play calling saying that it was insane to have dock pulling. Essentially portis said, pulling dock is a waste b/c if he can't block em by falling down than the defender ain't getting block.

I am on the fence on this, I think the 16M is gonna look normal in a few years but, here, now its a pretty big chunk to be paying for a good, not great, guard. Remember, 2 years ago this guy didn't meet a false start he didn't like.

Not hating on him, just don't think he was anything special. Wanted to hold onto him for continuity reasons. If we sign a decent replacement, for less money, okay. Not thrilled but okay. Now, if the replacement costs anywhere near what Dock signed or is such a clear downgrade that its obvious he was just getting market price for a good to average guard, then we could have problems.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Thats an insane amount of money for him. What is scary, is that at this point, if I was Smoot, I would be asking for all the money in light of these monster contracts.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Wow, they gave him the money Steve Hutchinson got. No f'ing way he is worth that much. He is not even 60% as good as Steve Hutchinson (best OG in the game IMO).

Best of luck to Doc and props to him and his agent for getting that kind of money.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Much as I liked Dock, there is no way I would have signed him for that amount or even half that amount. I would have offered around 12m max.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Do people have any idea what the idiots in the press would be saying right now if WE signed Dock to a deal that big? "Once again, the Redskins overpay ....blah, blah, blah."

As for Dock's wonderous agility, does anyone remember the Eagles game from 2005 at FexEx where Dock got turned around and tackled Portis? Portis was pissed and could be seen yelling at Dock.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

As JLC of the Washington Post was saying in his blog the team did try and resign him and was even looking a a deal similar to the one given to Jansen a few weeks back given the best OGs on the block were looking at $12m to sign and the Skins were offering in the region of $8-10 But this Bills deal is crazy, it is more than All Pro Chris Samuels at LT cost last time around and that wasn't that long ago... Sometimes I wonder what these pay scales are based on....

The other thing is these kinds of deals are unsustainable in the long term because right now we have the sling shot of the cap zooming up over the next few years thanks to the new TV deal but I cannot see how teams can pay and pay guys like this..

Hey how about that kid Killi he is back on the roster seem to remember him being a big kid doing quite well (for a late draft pick) untill the passing out thing

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Way to much money for an average at best guard. I just wish that the Redskins wouldn't have traded all there draft picks over the last few years and had a good replacement waiting in the wings like most other teams do when the lose a player. Pretty good guards can be had in the 3rd and 4th round area.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Portis did not like Dock... he ripped two players in the 980 post season interview and that was Lloyd - no supprise there and Dock....

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Where can I find the Portis interview?

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

There never going to get their money's worth. He'll never have to work hard again. The only time he worked hard here was last season because he knew his contract was up. Even if he plays like last year which was his best season, he's not worth that.

If that's what Dockery is worth, we'll be lucky to add any quality in FA. I mean, My God! 23 million guaranteed!

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[quote=saden1;283086]Wow, they gave him the money Steve Hutchinson got. No f'ing way he is worth that much. He is not even 60% as good as Steve Hutchinson (best OG in the game IMO).

Best of luck to Doc and props to him and his agent for getting that kind of money.[/quote]

Actually Dock's deal has 2 million more in guaranteed money...

The only criticism you could lay on the front office is that they should have locked him up earlier but I do not feel bad at all that they did not involve themselves in this mess.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

This deal is just wrong.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Dockery is a [U]good[/U] player. Not a great player, and not a star.

He is making star money, and I'm glad we're not paying that kind of deal for once.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

What are the Bills thinking about????????????

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

$49 mil over 7 years WITH $16 up front !?!?

I wanted him to sign here but if you can't sign him then you can't. I understand that the Skins have ost some guys that they have developed before but someone mentioned Champ. If memory serves me correctly Champ wanted to leave when Gibbs came back, so then they traded him to Denver. Maybe too much Ciroc and weed has my mind messed up but I thought that's how it went.

Seriously though, DOCK GOT THAT MUCH ??????

AND CLEMENTS GOT THAT MUCH ?!?!?!?

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

A similar thing happened in the NBA like ten years ago. Juwan Howard got 100 million dollars because he happened to be a free agent as the salary cap changed in the nba and there was a windfall like this. For the next seven years people were like Juwan Howard has a 100 million dollar contract??? That's just so stupid.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

I said no,but that doesn't mean i don't think the Skins are stupid for letting him go.They should have had this done a year ago.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

when will carter,AA,lloyd and randel el become stars,since they all are making star money.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[QUOTE=CHIEF CHUCKING MY SPEAR;283172]when will carter,AA,lloyd and randel el become stars,since they all are making star money.[/QUOTE]

After today's developments, they're not getting paid "star money."

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Hutchison signed that deal last year, and it blew everyone's minds - even though he was the consensus best guard in the league, and on the list on best O linemen.

Dockery is an up and comer, but hasn't so much as sniffed at Pro Bowl votes, much less been "the man". Him receiving the same figure as Hutchinson is stunning. The Bills had a ton of money, and pissed away a good chunk of it overpaying this deal.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

10 million for what 20 some catches for lloyd that a bargain lol. AA 10 million to sit AA on the bench what a bargain, Carter what did he have 6 sack for 10 million another bargain and randel el just a PR and reverse option pass guy at best a 3rd wr what a bargain.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

Several comments:

If the Skins sign Leonard Davis to replace Dockery, then one of the current OL will need to move inside to OG or Davis will have to move inside to OG. IF that happens to be Davis - which is a rumor that a friend of mine sent to me today - then Clinton Portis better get used to an OG who cannot pull out and block. Dockery was not swift as a deer; Davis would lose a 100-yard dash to the Venus de Milo...


The argument that the Skins should not sign Dockery to this kind of contract because that would get Cooley and Taylor thinking in terms of those numbers is off base. Those guys will still think that way because that is the price tag for free agent starting players that is being set around the league.


Is Dockery worth that kind of money? No. But if the Skins don't find a replacement at OG [B]for a reasonable price [/B]and have to go with one of the scrubs on the roster now, they are taking a HUGE risk. Remember how badly the middle of the line protected the QB when we had a center who could not block a guy on a bicycle? HOw about when Cory Raymer was sent in to pretend to be an OG? Asserting that any of the guys on the roster now are ready to step in and play 16 games at a high level of proficiency is really stretching things.


The Skins did the right thing here in the long run because signing Dockery to a contract this big would also make any contract restructurings with other offensive linemen difficult in the upcoming couple of years.


Imagine that you are Chris Samuel playing next to Dockery and he's got a deal that's worth 50% more than yours. You look around and realize that you're the better player. Now the Skins come to you and ask you to restructure. What's your response to their request? Suppose you're Randy Thomas and you are the better starting OG ...


I will be really upset if the Skins go out and pay something like 90% of this contract to some other guy just because they panicked when Dockery left and they could not sign Davis or Steinbach or Diehlman. Having the good sense not to overpay for Dockery is a good thing; turning around and overpaying for someone to replace him would be unmitigated stupidity unless the replacement is of superior quality.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

What about moving Jansen inside? Any thoughts. I know Jacoby played some guard toward the end of his timre. I think Wade could replace Jansen anyhoo.

The other in-house options are what? Pucillo and who else? I can't remember. Ndukwe or something. And Ray Brown is standing by. Don't forget him. If he doesn't pan out I hear Raleigh Mckenzie has been working out with Ron Saul.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[QUOTE=70Chip;283244]What about moving Jansen inside? Any thoughts. I know Jacoby played some guard toward the end of his timre. I think Wade could replace Jansen anyhoo.

The other in-house options are what? Pucillo and who else? I can't remember. Ndukwe or something. And Ray Brown is standing by. Don't forget him. If he doesn't pan out I hear Raleigh Mckenzie has been working out with Ron Saul.[/QUOTE]

I hate to admit it, but I don't even know who Raleigh Mckenzie is. As for moving Jansen inside, I sort like the idea. Jansen seems to have trouble getting beat around the edges and moving him inside would mask that weakness.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

he's not nearly good enough for that much money.

no move was the right move here.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;283277]I hate to admit it, but I don't even know who Raleigh Mckenzie is. As for moving Jansen inside, I sort like the idea. Jansen seems to have trouble getting beat around the edges and moving him inside would mask that weakness.[/QUOTE] You must be a young one. I wish we had McKenzie and this Dock shit would be put to rest.

Re: Derrick Dockery signs with the Bills
 

I really cant take it anymore, look at it like this, we had Dock last year and we were still a 5-11 team, why does anybody think Dock will single handidly change this, for christ sakes hes a guard, without a doubt the easiest position to replace on an NFL team. We need to spend the money on our defense, if we sign Dock back, then theres no Fletcher, no Smoot, and probably no Travis Fisher. That would leave us with no depth and no upgrades on defense, with that said, we would have one guard with a hell of a pay check and we would still have a horrible defense. Unless Dock can play DT or De or even MLB, well then i say good riddance