Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295682]It was last year and the year before that...by every possible measure. Will we win those 5 games? Not if the defense plays like it did this year. Then again, if the defense doesn't play better, it doesn't matter who plays QB.[/quote]

Sorry. Our passing game last year w/ Brunell was not very good. The guy struggles to throw for 200 yards. I remember a couple of games where he barely threw for 100 yards. Not all his fault though. But if Brunell was playing good he would not have gotten benched.

But I agree. Defense must play better!

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=hooskins;295687]Also why is this in the Draft section?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for noticing, I just moved it.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=crawfish;295681]Yes I realize that. But what happens if Brunell has to start for lets say 5 weeks. Can we win with him as our QB? Will our passing game be at an NFL level? I doubt it. Our defense would have to go back to 04-05 form and carry the team.[/quote]

Assuming our defense plays better, I definitely think we could play well for 3-5 games with Brunell as our QB. Like my signature line says, run the ball, stop the run. Don't put Brunell in a position to lose games. Pound our backs, play effective D, and Brunell can throw around 20 times a game. Also, when Brunell really starts to slip is when he gets dinged up and worn down. In a back role he'll be fresh. I'm fine with him as a back up.

That being said, I wouldn't mind bringing in Rattay as 3rd. He has way more upside than Collins, but would have to learn a huge playbook. We'd have to give him the vet minimum for it to make me happy. At least Rattay has a bunch of recent regular season experience. Collins hasn't had any significant playing time in forever.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Again most people do not realize the significance of TURNOVERS. Last year we were last in league in generating turnovers. The year before we were in the top 5 towards the end of the season.

It is really simple, the more turnovers you create.
-more times you get the ball.
-more chances to score
-less pressure on the QB to drive the team all the way down the field into scoring position
-less time the D is on the field for one drive. They get off quicker and get some time to rest.


The NFL is a turnover game. You have to be winning the turnover ratio consistently to win games. It really doesn't matter who your QB is if you are winning in turnovers.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;295542]Terry Bradshaw has been very critical of NFL FO's recently because Tim Rattay is still on the market. After Jeff Garcia got signed, no QB on the market had a better year than Rattay did. Yet, he still sits cheap and unsigned on the open market.

It's hardly what I would consider a "critical move", but we should cut Todd Collins to make room for Rattay. Thinking toward the future, Brunell isn't going to be here in 2008. Neither will Collins. If we wait until next year to fill the very important role of backup QB, we are going to have to pay a premium on whoever we want to be our backup.

By signing Tim Rattay to a 3-4 year deal tomorrow and installing him as the third QB, we can get a cheap backup QB and avoid having to outbid someone on the market next year for a QB who we wouldn't be afraid to play. Collins is nothing more than a roster filler with ties to Saunders as is. Rattay SHOULD be a starting QB in this league.

As for next year, we would have 3 guys on the roster who would (should) all be starting for the Falcons. At the very least, given two preseasons, Rattay should be able to play at a moments notice at the top of his game.

Sign this guy! Cut Collins![/QUOTE]


I agree with you on this one G, I believe we should cut Brunell as well, we have to move on and look to the future, why we hang onto a QB who we know can't get the job done in Brunell is beyond me. A backup is a guy who you hope has what it takes to become a starter and can possibly lead a team for a season if your starter goes down, we don't have that right now, it's time to cut the cord with these guys and press on!

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=hooskins;295695]Again most people do not realize the significance of TURNOVERS. Last year we were last in league in generating turnovers. The year before we were in the top 5 towards the end of the season.

It is really simple, the more turnovers you create.
-more times you get the ball.
-more chances to score
-less pressure on the QB to drive the team all the way down the field into scoring position
-less time the D is on the field for one drive. They get off quicker and get some time to rest.


The NFL is a turnover game. You have to be winning the turnover ratio consistently to win games. It really doesn't matter who your QB is if you are winning in turnovers.[/quote]

Exactly. When I said "assuming the defense is better," winning the turnover battle was included. D has gotta play better or nothing else will matter very much.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=hooskins;295685]I think you missing the logic of the argument.

1)What he is saying is that both Brunell and Garcia aren't amazing QBs, agreed?

2)But Garcia led a much better Philly team on a playoff run. Brunell had a much worst Washington team, but he pulled off a similar run.

3)Therefore since both QBs are about the same in terms of age and type of QB(short passes/scrambling), Brunell is the better choice because he succeeded in a worst situation. Plus he knows our system better than Garcia does.[/quote]

All I'm saying is this.

1. Brunell will be 37 next season coming off major surgery to his throwing shoulder.
2. Brunell played below average on a bad team in 06.
3. Brunell played 3/4 a good season in 05. Played terrible in the playoffs. I mean terrible!
4. Brunell played terrible in 04.

With all that being said, and looking at the big picture, doesn't anyone think that it's time to maybe bring in legit competition for the back-up job? Doesn't this makes sense???? We have seen three years of this Brunell project. Why didn't we try and upgrade the back-up QB job? One hit away and we are back to Brunell and the short passing game. He limits our offense and he limits Al Saunders ability to open up the playbook.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GMScud;295698]Exactly. When I said "assuming the defense is better," winning the turnover battle was included. D has gotta play better or nothing else will matter very much.[/quote]

I agree, yet so many people seem to put last season solely on the the shoulders of Brunell which is just unfair.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=offiss;295697]I agree with you on this one G, I believe we should cut Brunell as well, we have to move on and look to the future, why we hang onto a QB who we know can't get the job done in Brunell is beyond me. A backup is a guy who you hope has what it takes to become a starter and can possibly lead a team for a season if your starter goes down, we don't have that right now, it's time to cut the cord with these guys and press on![/quote]

I agree. It's time to turn the page on Brunell. Rattay would fit in well here and I would have Collins and Rattay battle for #2. It's makes no sense to hold on to Brunell at this point.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;295703]I agree. It's time to turn the page on Brunell. Rattay would fit in well here and I would have Collins and Rattay battle for #2. It's makes no sense to hold on to Brunell at this point.[/quote]

It also makes sense to have Collins here to help teach a younger guy the offense. Having 2 old backups who should both be gone next year doesn't seems smart.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GoSkins!;295710]It also makes sense to have Collins here to help teach a younger guy the offense. Having 2 old backups who should both be gone next year doesn't seems smart.[/quote]

Collins does not have any mileage on him since he has never played. So I'm not sure why he would be gone after next year. Unless he just can't play at all. But the coaches see him up close so they must see something in the guy. I like the move Carolina made. And also Atl. signing Harrington. We need a younger guy with some playing experience.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

If he became available, what do you all think about Charlie Frye as a young backup? He's taken a beating in Cleveland, but under the right tutelage he might be ok.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;295713]If he became available, what do you all think about Charlie Frye as a young backup? He's taken a beating in Cleveland, but under the right tutelage he might be ok.[/quote]

No thanks. I don't think he has a strong enoough arm nor is he a very accurate passer.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=skinsfan69;295725]No thanks. I don't think he has a strong enoough arm nor is he a very accurate passer.[/QUOTE]

Does Rattay have a stronger arm than Frye? I mean maybe he does

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;295726]Does Rattay have a stronger arm than Frye? I mean maybe he does[/quote]

To expand that a little bit further, what back-up QB would fit Saunders offense the best?
1) Strong arm strength but not good on reads/immobile? Kyle Boller, Aaron Brooks, Drew Bledsoe(?)
2) Mid-range on arm strength and decent on his reads? Charlie Frye, Todd Bouman, Cleo Lemon(?)
3) Average-only arm strength but great decision making? Brunell, Collins, Trent Green (?)

I'm sure the players I listed aren't exact fits for the limited categories I provided but it's just something to get started with.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=offiss;295697]I agree with you on this one G, I believe we should cut Brunell as well, we have to move on and look to the future, why we hang onto a QB who we know can't get the job done in Brunell is beyond me. A backup is a guy who you hope has what it takes to become a starter and can possibly lead a team for a season if your starter goes down, we don't have that right now, it's time to cut the cord with these guys and press on![/quote]Well, having Rattay would eliminate the absolute necessity for having Brunell around, but even still, Brunell's contract makes him idiotic for us to dump him now. He's probably the best backup option in the league, assuming that Garcia wins the starter role in Tampa. Teams like Minnesota, Atlanta, and Oakland would be much better off with a guy like Brunell in there. So this notion that he can't play is coming from some pretty spoiled fans, IMO. Admittedly, he's going to continue to be in ever so slight decline each year for the rest of his career, so we even restructured his deal to automatically void after this year. Brunell's future has already been decided.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=crawfish;295688]Sorry. Our passing game last year w/ Brunell was not very good. The guy struggles to throw for 200 yards. I remember a couple of games where he barely threw for 100 yards. Not all his fault though. [B]But if Brunell was playing good he would not have gotten benched.[/B]

But I agree. Defense must play better![/quote]Uh, no? A guy who has a 1st round pick at QB behind him on the depth chart will get replaced whenever the team feels the young gun is ready. Brunell had basically been keeping the seat warm for two years.

Gibbs knew that he'd be costing us some wins when he went to Campbell, but in a lost season, the decision was an easy one. Giving up merely your best chance to win for a much better chance to win in future seasons is a no brainer. Gibbs didn't just fall off the turnip truck, he had a plan with his QBs all along and he stuck to it.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;295734]To expand that a little bit further, what back-up QB would fit Saunders offense the best?
1) Strong arm strength but not good on reads/immobile? Kyle Boller, Aaron Brooks, Drew Bledsoe(?)
2) Mid-range on arm strength and decent on his reads? Charlie Frye, Todd Bouman, Cleo Lemon(?)
3) Average-only arm strength but great decision making? Brunell, Collins, Trent Green (?)

I'm sure the players I listed aren't exact fits for the limited categories I provided but it's just something to get started with.[/quote]Saunders' system, like every other system, would benefit from having the best QB in there. Style is all relative to talent. Those who make the best reads/decisions are the best quarterbacks. Those who make poor reads/decisions aren't any good at all.

Of that list, Brunell and Trent Green are the only guys who should still be playing in this league. Maybe in a few years, Lemon can be a backup, but that's about it.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I think Ramsey would have led us to the Super Bowl, LaVar Arrington would have been the next LT had it not been for his injury, we gave up too much for Clinton Portis, we never should have let Pierce go, and we never should have acquired Trotter.

I just thought I'd make the above points in anticipation of talking about everything that is water under the bridge and beaten to a pulp.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Schneed10;295684]But GTripp, can you explain to me why signing a guy of Tim Rattay's quality will be more expensive next year than he would be right now?

He's a mediocre-at-best QB that's been ditched by two teams now. Carr got $3 million a year. If Rattay is worth $2.5 million a year now (which we can't afford in 07 by the way), then why would a guy like him be worth anything more than $2.8 or so next year?[/quote]I think we know enough about Rattay as a player to pinpoint his career path. He's right in the prime of his career right now, and should he get a chance to start down the stretch, is good enough to put together a solid career. He's one of the 32 best QBs in this league.

Any player who fits all that criteria next year will certainly be a hot commodity. It's a complete fluke that with all those teams that have crappy QBs, Tim Rattay is not a hot commodity.

This is a rare, sizable market deficency and we would be wise to exploit it while the oppertunity is still available.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I have always thought highly of Rattay. Rattay isn't a franchise QB, so I understand why San Fran went after a QB with the #1 overall pick and TB let him go after failing to agree to a contract extension with him. But, while he's never going to be a stellar #1, he's probably one of the better #2s in the league. Here are his [URL="http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/187628"]stats[/URL] for anyone who is interested.

Where's our resident 49ers fan to enlighten us?

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Was it Lloyd that said he stopped caring in San Fran once they let Rattay go, because that told him they didn't care about winning?

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=skinsfan69;295703]I agree. It's time to turn the page on Brunell. Rattay would fit in well here and I would have Collins and Rattay battle for #2. It's makes no sense to hold on to Brunell at this point.[/quote]It makes a lot less sense, economically and talent wise, to hold on to Collins.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;295764]Was it Lloyd that said he stopped caring in San Fran once they let Rattay go, because that told him they didn't care about winning?[/QUOTE]

That was the rumor.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I don't see what would be so catastrophic about bringing in Rattay, providing he doesn't break the cap bank.

In fact, his on-the-field experience in regular season play compared to Todd Collins' time might make up for his lack of understanding of what is apparently The World's Most Sophisticated Offense.

I would also agree that the overall athletic advantages Rattay has over Collins might make it a wise move for the future. But then, that's exactly the kind of forsight the front office isn't really known for.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I'd prefer to get someone a bit younger than Rattay. Ideally, a rookie or 2nd year person that we could dump on the practice squad for a year then send to NFL Europe. Granted, that's what we're doing with Bramlet.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;295775]I'd prefer to get someone a bit younger than Rattay. Ideally, a rookie or 2nd year person that we could dump on the practice squad for a year then send to NFL Europe. Granted, that's what we're doing with Bramlet.[/quote]

Bring back Gibran Hamden!

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Beemnseven;295771]The World's Most Sophisticated Offense.[/quote]Trademarked.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;295751]Uh, no? A guy who has a 1st round pick at QB behind him on the depth chart will get replaced whenever the team feels the young gun is ready. Brunell had basically been keeping the seat warm for two years.

Gibbs knew that he'd be costing us some wins when he went to Campbell, but in a lost season, the decision was an easy one. Giving up merely your best chance to win for a much better chance to win in future seasons is a no brainer. Gibbs didn't just fall off the turnip truck, he had a plan with his QBs all along and he stuck to it.[/QUOTE]

I have to diagree with that, the sooner we get a legitamate backup in here the sooner he can start learning the system and the players around him, unless someone believes that Campbell can lead us to a SB this season [because we know Brunell can't] then it's senseless to keep him around this season, we have to prepare for the future not worry about winning 1 or 2 extra games if Campbell goes down, because with Brunell those 1 or 2 games will result in a lesser draft pick not a playoff berth.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;295775]I'd prefer to get someone a bit younger than Rattay. Ideally, a rookie or 2nd year person that we could dump on the practice squad for a year then send to NFL Europe. Granted, that's what we're doing with Bramlet.[/QUOTE]

I am officially an anyone but Brunell, or Collins guy!

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=offiss;295787]I have to diagree with that, the sooner we get a legitamate backup in here the sooner he can start learning the system and the players around him, unless someone believes that Campbell can lead us to a SB this season [because we know Brunell can't] then it's senseless to keep him around this season, we have to prepare for the future not worry about winning 1 or 2 extra games if Campbell goes down, because with Brunell those 1 or 2 games will result in a lesser draft pick not a playoff berth.[/quote]

Trouble is, nobody in this thread wants to deal with the reality of the 2007 salary cap. It's like I'm preaching to a collective brick wall.

David Carr signed a deal with the Panthers for $3.1 million per season. Joey Harrington signed a deal with the Falcons for $3.0 million per season. I've seen it suggested that we give Rattay a 3-year deal, with vet min salaries in years 1 and 2, and then a salary of $1.2 million in year 3. This along with a $3.5 million signing bonus. While that deal would work with our salary cap (barely, still makes it extremely tight this season); the deal wouldn't come close to comparing to the Carr and Harrington deals, it's less than $2.0 million per season. I'm not sure what the logic is that leads anyone to think that Tim Rattay deserves 33% less than David Carr or Joey Harrington.

I know this thread was started in the interests of playing fantasy GM, suggesting a course of action for the team. Luckily our coaches like Todd Collins an awful lot, because signing Rattay to a fair-market deal would put us in dire salary cap straits. It's unrealistic.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;295775]I'd prefer to get someone a bit younger than Rattay. Ideally, a rookie or 2nd year person that we could dump on the practice squad for a year then send to NFL Europe. Granted, that's what we're doing with Bramlet.[/quote]

Given that we [B]can't[/B] sign Tim Rattay this year because of salary cap reasons, we'd have to address our future at backup QB next season.

I would suggest next year that we resign Todd Collins as the #2 and let Brunell walk into the sunset. My reasoning is mainly driven by the cap. Brunell's contract was recently restructured in such a way that we all know he's gone after this season; I'll donate one of my testicles to charity if he's not.

Nobody in the NFL, except Al Saunders, knows squat about Todd Collins. Nobody's going to bid him up. We'll get him for one year, vet minimum, or close to it. He knows the system well, in his limited action he's about 1:1 when it comes to INT/TD ratio, completes an adequate percentage of his passes, and he has familiarity with the team's personnel.

For the #3 spot, I'd go with Smootsmack's suggestion; bring along a young fella. Draft someone late in 2008 who can learn quickly and make solid decisions. Groom him for the #2 job.

I agree that it makes sense to get someone in here earlier if we can, so they can start learning. But the cap prohibits it in Rattay's case.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Maybe I'm missing something between the comparison of Collins and Rattay. How much better is he compared to Collins?They both seem like journeyman backups. The difference is that Collins seems to be liked(trusted) by his offensive coordinator while Rattay is liked by no one. Right now if he's willing to sign for vet minimum then there should be one or two teams that would make him an offer.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=SmootSmack;295726]Does Rattay have a stronger arm than Frye? I mean maybe he does[/quote]

I think so. Frye throws like crap. He looks like a HS QB. I'm not sure how he made it to the pros.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;295809]Maybe I'm missing something between the comparison of Collins and Rattay. How much better is he compared to Collins?They both seem like journeyman backups. The difference is that Collins seems to be liked(trusted) by his offensive coordinator while Rattay is liked by no one. Right now if he's willing to sign for vet minimum then there should be one or two teams that would make him an offer.[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't understand what makes Rattay so attractive. He's been cast away by two teams now, and has generated little to no interest on the open market.

Gruden thought so highly of him that he went out and signed Garcia and made a play for Plummer.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=GTripp0012;295620]How do you suggest we improve the frequency we get big plays at?

Look, the reason I look at sabremetric stats is because points don't tell the whole story. The raw points don't tell you how many turnovers we didn't get this year, how many points the defense didn't score this year, how pathetic our 32nd ranked starting ave. field postion was, or how much the discrepancy of points were just a function of luck. 15% doesn't look all that convincing when you see the reasoning.

Big plays will certainly help, but I don't know how you plan to get them. If you throw deep too often hoping to create big plays, you will raise INTs and kill a lot of drives.

The best way to get big plays is to get the ball in the hands of Moss, Portis and Cooley and let them do their thing. This is a sign Tim Rattay/Cut Todd Collins thread. I don't understand how creating more big plays should be a factor in this decision.[/quote]


This is a good point. Regarding Moss how do you think we can get the ball in his hands more? Do we keep throwing that stupid slip screen that everyone in the NFL has caught on to and hope Santana breaks 5 tackles? No. We are going to have to throw it more in the +20 yard range. So we have to try and throw more deep passes like every other team in the NFL does and not be so paranoid about INT's. Conservative offense only works when you have a great defense and that aint the case here. We tried the conservative offense in 04 and it got us a 6-10 record with a top 5 defense.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

Who knows, maybe Bramlet beats out Collins in the preseason. The odds are not in his favor to do so considering Collins' knowledge of the system & the fact that it's difficult to get pt even in the preseason games w/3 qbs, much less 4.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

I'm in favor of as little change as possible this offseason.

After offseason after offseason of changes and major upheavals, I thought most people would feel the same way but apparently not.

The focus of the offseason and upcoming camps should all be on getting Campbell ready. We don't need to be teaching the offense to another new QB, or two as some people seem to want.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

[quote=Mattyk72;295818]I'm in favor of as little change as possible this offseason.

After offseason after offseason of changes, I thought most people would feel the same way but apparently not.

The focus of the offseason and upcoming camps should all be on getting Campbell ready. We don't need to be teaching the offense to another new QB, or two as some people seem to want.[/quote]

Wholeheartedly agreed. I'm into the word wholehearted today.

We have one QB coach, Bill Lazor. He needs to focus on Jason Campbell this season. Al Saunders needs to be concerned with Jason Campbell, and the remainder of the offense.

The last thing I want to see is Campbell get shortchanged on time with the coaches just so we can start grooming a Tim Rattay for a future #2 job. It's a misallocation of coaching resources. Todd Collins is low maintenance, he knows what he's doing, coaches don't need to spend extra time with him. We invested a ton in Campbell, and he is showing that he has the talent. We need to make the full investment in him as our QB, which includes investing the coaching man-hours to harvest his talent and generate production.

Re: The Official Warpath Sign Tim Rattay and Cut Todd Collins Thread
 

once again the voice of reason