Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Here is a wonder argument against the whole notion of future potential if you are interested.

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Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314849][B]The freedom of the mother supersedes that of the embryo. I would have to violate her rights in order to protect the embryo.[/B]

As for your future value argument, I don't buy it. You could argue the world would have been better of if Hitler was aborted.[/quote]

The bolded piece is the fundamental difference in our arguments, and is why we have to just allow ourselves to disagree. I have the exact opposite view, that the rights of the embryo to live supercedes the rights of the mother to choose. To me it makes sense, because the mother just has to sacrifice her body for 9 months, and then the emotional trauma of giving the baby up for adoption, but then she lives her life and moves on. But the embryo is forced to sacrifice it's entire existence if aborted. When weighing the sacrifices, I think the woman should be forced to suck it up. But if you think the mother's right supercedes the embryo's, then there's no reconciling our arguments.

As for the future value thing, you're grasping at straws. What are the chances that any child grows up to be the next Hitler? Or let's expand that, what are the chances that any child grows up to be a detracting member of society in any way (a criminal, a bum, etc.)? There are a lot more healthy, happy, and normal people in society than there are bums. So if you want to talk straight up odds, chances are the child is going to grow up to be a good person with a solid life.

Besides, Hitler had a chance to become a good man, but he chose to be the piece of shitake mushroom. That's his fault, but at least he had a chance to choose how to live his life.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=saden1;314839] ... until the embryo is actually a child (formed). [/QUOTE]
When is this exactly?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314850]Here is a wonder argument against the whole notion of future potential if you are interested.

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I read through part of it (it's too long, sorry), and I don't agree with the basic premise that there can be any reason "to not have the baby" strong enough to outweigh the reason to let it live.

The only reason strong enough to justify abortion is if the pregnancy has a higher-than-normal chance of killing the mother.

Otherwise, what reason could possibly exist that would outweigh the embryo's nearly-assured future of a life full of freedom and happiness?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=FRPLG;314917]When is this exactly?[/quote]

Great question.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

SChneed et all: My stance on abortion certainly includes the mothers right to choose, but that has been covered. You still haven't answered my questions. Would you be willing to up your taxes significantly to help support the extra poverty there is now? I'm not saying every abortion is killing a useless child, not at all. However, I think it's hard to say that poverty in general wouldn't get much worse. We're quickly running out of natural resources and we're using the earth up at an alarming rate.

Everyone says how appalled they are with my statement, but no one can tell me that it's incorrect. Sometime we need to step back and take a slightly less personal look at things. It's not like I'd ever force an abortion on anyone. However, if someone things they're not fit to take care of a child and it's better not for them to bring a kid into the world they can't care for.

As far as tons of people looking to adopt babies. Wrong. Lots of people are looking for white babies. There are tons of children in the United States and elsewhere in foster care, etc that can't find homes.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=Daseal;314926]SChneed et all: My stance on abortion certainly includes the mothers right to choose, but that has been covered. You still haven't answered my questions. Would you be willing to up your taxes significantly to help support the extra poverty there is now? I'm not saying every abortion is killing a useless child, not at all. However, I think it's hard to say that poverty in general wouldn't get much worse. We're quickly running out of natural resources and we're using the earth up at an alarming rate.

Everyone says how appalled they are with my statement, but no one can tell me that it's incorrect. Sometime we need to step back and take a slightly less personal look at things. It's not like I'd ever force an abortion on anyone. However, if someone things they're not fit to take care of a child and it's better not for them to bring a kid into the world they can't care for.

As far as tons of people looking to adopt babies. Wrong. Lots of people are looking for white babies. There are tons of children in the United States and elsewhere in foster care, etc that can't find homes.[/quote]

Actually homie, I did answer your question. Yes I'd be willing to pay the extra $100 or $200 per year to support the ones who will end up on welfare/Medicaid.

In post #64 I said:
[quote]And yes, I'd gladly support the "dregs" with increased welfare taxes. Some issues are more important than money, and denying someone the right to a happy life is more important than an extra hundred or two bucks in my pocket each year.[/quote]

Many kids do end up in foster care, you're right. But does foster care doom 100% of them to an unhappy life? Some still end up finding happiness, and robbing them all of that opportunity to find happiness and love in the world is wrong to me.

Give the poor souls a little credit, some people manage to rise above even the longest odds. At least let them try.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Besides, if so many foster children actually thought death would be a better alternative to life, wouldn't most of them be killing themselves?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

According to this unbiased website, there were 760,000 abortions in 1996 in the United States. That represents only those that were recorded, so only those performed legally. And it was 11 years ago, so there could be more today.

[url=http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/age.asp]Abortion Statistics - By Age.[/url]

So let's assume there are 1,000,000 abortions in the US and do a little math here. Let's say every single one of them required welfare and Medicaid each year, a ridiculous assumption, but let's go with it. Let's assume welfare provides about $10,000 in benefits each year, and Medicaid provides on average about $3000 in benefits. That amounts to $13 billion needed to cover them.

Now, there are about 300 million people living in the US. When you take out those under 18, those over 65 receiving social security, and those without jobs, you're left with something like 150,000,000 taxpaying citizens.

So divide $13 billion by those taxpayers, and you're talking $86 per taxpayer per year. That's $7.22 a month, or $1.67 per week. Hardly a consequential amount of money.

And that's based on the ridiculous notion that every single baby currently being aborted would become complete drains on society.

The taxes are not an issue.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;314917]When is this exactly?[/QUOTE]

When the mother decides? Personally, I'd like for a decision to be made within 4 months, 6 months max.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10;314920]Otherwise, what reason could possibly exist that would outweigh the embryo's nearly-assured future of a life full of freedom and happiness?[/QUOTE]

By that account every time someone masturbates they are denying at least one sperm a nearly-assured future of fertilizing an egg and a life full of freedom and happiness.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=saden1;314975]When the mother decides? Personally, I'd like for a decision to be made within 4 months, 6 months max.[/QUOTE]

Why does the mom get to deicde when a child has formed? That child's "life" shouldn't be defined by any type of arbitrary human measurement. The mothers intiment involvement doesn't give her any greater knowledge of when a fertilized egg magically becomes a child than you or me.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=saden1;314976]By that account every time someone masturbates they are denying at least one sperm a nearly-assured future of fertilizing an egg and a life full of freedom and happiness.[/QUOTE]

No because a sperm is not human life. It is nothing to the world. It is as important as a rock. Without an egg the sperm is nothing and vice versa. Together they are life.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=FRPLG;314980]Why does the mom get to deicde when a child has formed? That child's "life" shouldn't be defined by any type of arbitrary human measurement. The mothers intiment involvement doesn't give her any greater knowledge of when a fertilized egg magically becomes a child than you or me.[/QUOTE]

What gives you the right to define a fertilized egg as a child? An embryo as a child?

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[QUOTE=saden1;314983]What gives you the right to define a fertilized egg as a child? An embryo as a child?[/QUOTE]

Logic does.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

Kinda wild how we've had page after page of debate on abortion, yet only person voted it as an important issue.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314976]By that account every time someone masturbates they are denying at least one sperm a nearly-assured future of fertilizing an egg and a life full of freedom and happiness.[/quote]

I'm arguing for nature taking it's course. When the sperm and egg have already met and become an embryo, nature's course would lead to the development and birth of a baby.

Nature also takes its course as I get an urge, grab my Hustler, and run to my private place. Masturbation is natural.

It's not our responsibility to make sure every sperm and every egg get together in this world. It's our responsibility to protect the ones that do get together. We have laws in our country, outlawing things like murder and rape, because we're interested in protecting lives. We don't have any laws that say we are mandated to procreate whenever possible.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=saden1;314983]What gives you the right to define a fertilized egg as a child? An embryo as a child?[/quote]

Because chances are, without interference, that embryo will develop into a healthy and happy human being.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=SmootSmack;314987]Kinda wild how we've had page after page of debate on abortion, yet only person voted it as an important issue.[/quote]

Yeah, abortion is a good topic to discuss because of the philosophical lines you have to draw to define what life is.

But when it comes down to voting, I'm all about foreign policy and the economy, because I'm more interested in protecting and preserving the lives and livelihood of the 300 million Americans who are already born, compared to the almost 1 million Americans who are aborted each year.

Abortion's a good one to discuss, but I gotta keep my priorities straight; when it comes to my vote I'm almost entirely voting on Iraq and the economy.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

[quote=SmootSmack;314987]Kinda wild how we've had page after page of debate on abortion, yet only person voted it as an important issue.[/quote]


That is funny, isn't it? I think we just like to argue, that's all.

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

I voted for it :)

Re: SGG's What's Your Issue Poll
 

I think it has been a lively debate. Civil(which is rare when talking about abortion) and relatively intellectual. What's funny is that I do not view abortion as a voting issue if only because it is so contentious. I know that a vote based on someone's abortion views is a wasted vote since I do not believe that there will ever be a satisfactory conclusion to the debate. I am big into constituents having a say and law-makers following the will of the people when it is appropriate. It is appropriate on social issues like abortion because we have all the info we need to make an informed decision. I am less inclined to have law-makers follow the people's will on more complex issues where we don't have a clear understanding of the issues. Like most foreign policy.

I have never voted based even slightly on abortion.

It is simply a subject to debate without regard to politics.