Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;405166]Owners of several other teams (e.g., Dallas' Jerry Jones) "interfere" with personnel decisions and they seem to be doing well. I[B]MO, the idea that all our woes are attributable to front office mismanagement is erroneous[/B]. IMO, there are many, many reasons why this franchise has struggled in recent years. First and foremost, we have not had an experienced, franchise QB since ........ hmmm. This is a QB-driven league, we haven't had a franchise QB in quite some time. Second, we've had some awful coaching. If you don't like Gibbs, how do you feel about Norv and Spurrier? Third, injuries and death derailed what was likely a deep playoff run in 2007. The list goes on.

It's nice and all to attribute our struggles to one single source, or, better yet, one single person. While it's convenient to lay the blame for our woes at the feet of a single goat, I'm not buying.[/QUOTE]

This just gets back to the general tendency on here for people to have to point the finger at one person.

There is some apparent need to attribute all our problems to one guy. We lost the game because of Suisham. It's all Snyder's fault. Gibbs is old and that's why we lose.

Why are people incapable of looking at the totality of the circumstances?

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;405166]Owners of several other teams (e.g., Dallas' Jerry Jones) "interfere" with personnel decisions and they seem to be doing well. IMO, the idea that all our woes are attributable to front office mismanagement is erroneous. IMO, there are many, many reasons why this franchise has struggled in recent years. [B]First and foremost, we have not had an experienced, franchise QB since ........ hmmm. This is a QB-driven league, we haven't had a franchise QB in quite some time.[/B] Second, we've had some awful coaching. If you don't like Gibbs, how do you feel about Norv and Spurrier? Third, injuries and death derailed what was likely a deep playoff run in 2007. The list goes on.

It's nice and all to attribute our struggles to one single source, or, better yet, one single person. While it's convenient to lay the blame for our woes at the feet of a single goat, I'm not buying.[/quote]

I think that's a great point.

Look at how well things were going with some stellar play from Collins.

And if you look around the league at teams that constantly shuffle in new QBs every year, most likely those are perennial losers.

I'm confident that Campbell can be our guy for a long time. And if he does, we may look back upon Gibbs 2.0 with a slightly different opinion that we have now.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=mheisig;405196]This just gets back to the general tendency on here for people to have to point the finger at one person.

There is some apparent need to attribute all our problems to one guy. We lost the game because of Suisham. It's all Snyder's fault. Gibbs is old and that's why we lose.

Why are people incapable of looking at the totality of the circumstances?[/quote]

Good point. People want the easy scapegoat.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

About the QB play, since it has been brought up:

I seem to recall JC playing pretty stellar in the opening quarter or two of games, and making mistakes when he's asked to turn it back on after we blow a slim lead. I can think of 3 interceptions at the very end of ballgames (2 at dallas and 1 at TB) trying to come back from a blown lead because of conservative play.

I wondered then and now, how he would have fared if his offense didn't change with a lead. Even the players said the gameplan changed and they were allowed to do things with a lead that they should have been doing all along...

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=canthetuna;405237]About the QB play, since it has been brought up:

I seem to recall JC playing pretty stellar in the opening quarter or two of games, and making mistakes when he's asked to turn it back on after we blow a slim lead. I can think of 3 interceptions at the very end of ballgames (2 at dallas and 1 at TB) trying to come back from a blown lead because of conservative play.

I wondered then and now, how he would have fared if his offense didn't change with a lead. Even the players said the gameplan changed and they were allowed to do things with a lead that they should have been doing all along...[/quote]
Thats a fair question to ask but all QB's in the NFL have to perform in the last minutes of a game. The thing that seperates good QB's from great ones is their ability to pull out a game in the final drive. JC has shown the ability to drive us down the field but not the ability to make that final play. Even if we play the same for the entire game he has to show that he can win these types of games. I'm not saying he cannot but can someone point out a game where he has driven us down field and scored to win a game. I'm not bashing JC I'm just not ready to say that he is our franchise QB.

One other thing on JC.
He seems to get into the rush mode a little soon when we are driving the ball downfield. Like in our first Dallas game he threw a very poor pass to give them the win. We had plenty of time and all he needed to do was throw the ball away.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=canthetuna;405237]About the QB play, since it has been brought up:

I seem to recall JC playing pretty stellar in the opening quarter or two of games, and making mistakes when he's asked to turn it back on after we blow a slim lead. I can think of 3 interceptions at the very end of ballgames (2 at dallas and 1 at TB) trying to come back from a blown lead because of conservative play.

[B]I wondered then and now, how he would have fared if his offense didn't change with a lead. Even the players said the gameplan changed and they were allowed to do things with a lead that they should have been doing all along[/B]...[/quote]

The coaches were only trying to protect their young QB and not put him in bad spots. With a good running game and defense at their disposal it was the logical thing to do.

I think next year we'll see less of that as he continues to gain experience.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=sancho2613;405144]you didn't say it in this one but you did say it in a different thread but that's another story.... I just can't understand why anyone would think it's a disapointment? You make it seem like the Skins had winning records the few years before he came back and then he got here and ruined it. You have seen the skins records on the few years before he came back right? They had only one winning record in the previous 7 years before he came back. He had his team playing hard for him and if you would of had your wish i believe you would of had a lot worst of a season. I just can't understand why you would want another coach knowing that the team would play harder and have a lot more respect for the hall of fame coach you already had. It almost seems like wishing you had a crappier team by having a coach that wouldn't of been able to pull through the hard times that Gibbs had to go through. Sorry just can't understand.... 1 playoff berth in 12 years when he's gone or 2 in 4 years? I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure out if you were better off with him or with out him....[/quote]

Give yourself a pat on the back and a cold pint :food-smil

Hope the Packers beat the Seahawks.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=mheisig;405191]Disappointment is a personal emotion and is completely dependent on the circumstances and your expectations.

Looking back, I am not the least bit disappointed in Gibbs 2.0. Could it have been better? Sure. Like someone else said though, we have improved substantially.[/QUOTE]

You are not the least bit disappointed in a losing record overall and 1 playoff win? I find that really hard to believe.

How have we improved substantially? Do the skins have good players? Yes but they have had good players in the past also. The NFL is such a fluid environment that its hard to say that what is here now will be here in the future or be successful.

This team had a losing record prior to Gibbs 2.0 and it had a losing record when he left. The only improvement I saw was barely making the playoffs twice. I guess thats better than nothing.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=irish;405269]You are not the least bit disappointed in a losing record overall and 1 playoff win? I find that really hard to believe.

How have we improved substantially? Do the skins have good players? Yes but they have had good players in the past also. The NFL is such a fluid environment that its hard to say that what is here now will be here in the future or be successful.

This team had a losing record prior to Gibbs 2.0 and it had a losing record when he left. The only improvement I saw was barely making the playoffs twice. I guess thats better than nothing.[/quote]

Yes, actually its twice as much as we'd been since Gibbs left in 93. Everything is relative, and to not evaluate someone w/respect to the circumstances is almost arbitrary. Gibbs came into a situation that even the Danny conceded yesterday was "unstable." He got us to the playoffs twice & brought in talent to build on, particularly JC. Even if you're not convinced he's the guy, at least Gibbs made the move to get him, which was not that costly either. Gibbs knew that it was in the best interest of the team & that in all likelihood JC's best years would be after Gibbs retires.

If I'm correct, Pastabelly also said similar things about Parcells' tenure w/Dallas, pointing out his avg. record. yet Parcells got that team back in the playoffs & built the roster that is now #1 in the nfc.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

LOL there's no barely making the playoffs. You either make it or you don't.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=irish;405269]How have we improved substantially? Do the skins have good players? Yes but they have had good players in the past also.[/QUOTE]


I posted this in another thread, but I thought people might want to compare our starters, pre and post Gibbs.

OFFENSE

LT = unchanged
LG = Dockery to Kendall
[B]C = Moore to Rabach [/B]
RG = unchanged
RT = unchanged
[B]TE = Zeron Flemister to Chris Cooley
WR#1 = Coles to Moss
WR #2 = Gardner to ARE
RB = Trung Canidate to Clinton Portis
FB = Bryan Johnson to Mike Sellers [/B]

DEFENSE

LE = Wynn to Daniels
[B]DT = Noble to Montgomery
DT = Dalton to Griffin
RE = Upshaw to Carter
OLB = Arrington to McIntosh
MLB = Trotter to Fletcher
OLB = Armstead to Washington[/B]
CB#1 = Bailey to Springs
CB #2 = Smoot to Smoot/Rogers
[B]FS = Ohalete to Taylor*
SS = Bowen to Landry[/B]

Aside from the Bailey/Springs and Dockery/Kendall swaps, we are in much better position today than we were 4 years ago. [B]Of the 22 starters Spurrier left Gibbs with, 11 are not even playing in the NFL[/B] (Ohalete, Bowen, Armstead, Arrington, Noble, Dalton, Upshaw, Moore, Flemister, Johnson, and Canidate). That's 50% of the team. Moreover, most of those guys are out of work due to poor play, not age or injury.

In short, we did NOT have a good roster in 2003. We appear to have a nice one in 2007.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

ok then if you say the skins "barely made the playoffs twice while he was here". When Gibbs left i bet you would of wished to at least "barely make the playoffs" but you only made it once in what 12 years. Gibbs made it twice in his 4 years. I would say he's not a dissapointment at all especially with what he did just this year alone. I would say the Dolphins coach was a disappointment, maybe you need a coach like that so you can appreciate Gibbs or maybe you want to got to the playoffs just once in the next 12 years? would that be better then going twice in the last 4 years? I think you had a good chance of going to the SB this year how is that not an improvement from making the playoffs just once in 12 years when he was gone?

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=Daseal;404756]I know you guys don't like it, but has Joe Gibbs been anything more than ordinary in his second stint? Defend your answer. Don't just call him a prick, but why should the public view a coach with a losing record in his second stint be deemed some sort of deity around the NFL. No one is taking away from what Gibbs did in the 80s and 90s, but prove to me using facts WHY Joe Gibbs should be seen as anything but an ordinary NFL coach in his second stint. You may not like the article, but that doesn't make it false, or means he 'hates' the Redskins. Every team thinks the media hates them.[/QUOTE]

Two playoff appearances in four seasons; the last after losing 6 starters, including your QB. That's not 'average".

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

Honestly Irish, you can make the case for the "other side" all you want, but you and Daseal are vastly outnumbered with this. There is no denying that we only benefited from having Joe Gibbs here.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

I guess the more I read about our two blind, deaf and dumb fellow members,(by the way the blind deaf and dumb remark is not a personal attack, just an observation), My question to myself and everyone else here is.....why bother? Seriously, if these two and anyone else who is in agreement with them, cant see the difference in this team pre and post Gibbs II, well then to hell with em. I almost feel like they are doing it just for attention. I mean can someone really be that, blind, deaf and dumb?

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

Look, it's one thing to disagree. It's another to call them blind, deaf, and dumb.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=sancho2613;405313]ok then if you say the skins "barely made the playoffs twice while he was here". When Gibbs left i bet you would of wished to at least "barely make the playoffs" but you only made it once in what 12 years. Gibbs made it twice in his 4 years. I would say he's not a dissapointment at all especially with what he did just this year alone. I would say the Dolphins coach was a disappointment, maybe you need a coach like that so you can appreciate Gibbs or maybe you want to got to the playoffs just once in the next 12 years? would that be better then going twice in the last 4 years? I think you had a good chance of going to the SB this year how is that not an improvement from making the playoffs just once in 12 years when he was gone?[/QUOTE]

This whole post is perfect. And you're a packer's fan... Positive rep points for you!

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=SmootSmack;405452]Look, it's one thing to disagree. It's another to call them blind, deaf, and dumb.[/QUOTE]

Can we call them obtuse? as long as we do it with love in our hearts?

Seriously, as had been said throughout this thread, was Gibbs stellar in this last term? No. Was he "average"? No.

No other coach could have come into the 2003/2004 Skins and so fundamentally changed the team's (the entire team - FO, coaches & players) attitude from self-serving chaos to a true "team" concept.

IF we are lucky, Snyder did learn something from Gibbs about managing a team and, if he did so, then with a little luck we can be a constant winner again. The foundation for that is set thanks to Gibbs and THAT is no minor feat given where we were as a team.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;405478]Can we call them obtuse? as long as we do it with love in our hearts?

Seriously, as had been said throughout this thread, was Gibbs stellar in this last term? No. Was he "average"? No.

No other coach could have come into the 2003/2004 Skins and so fundamentally changed the team's (the entire team - FO, coaches & players) attitude from self-serving chaos to a true "team" concept.

IF we are lucky, Snyder did learn something from Gibbs about managing a team and, if he did so, then with a little luck we can be a constant winner again. The foundation for that is set thanks to Gibbs and THAT is no minor feat given where we were as a team.[/QUOTE]

You make a great point in your last sentence. I believe Snyder will think he learned a lot from Gibbs and because of that, and Gibbs being gone, will assume a bigger role in player evaluation and free agent signings. He defered a lot to Gibbs while Gibbs was here but now that Gibbs is gone and Danny has studied at the feet of his hero he will assume the involved role he had in the past. It could get real interesting.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=irish;405481]You make a great point in your last sentence. I believe Snyder will think he learned a lot from Gibbs and because of that, and Gibbs being gone, will assume a bigger role in player evaluation and free agent signings. He defered a lot to Gibbs while Gibbs was here but [B]now that Gibbs is gone and Danny has studied at the feet of his hero he will assume the involved role he had in the past. It could get real interesting[/B].[/QUOTE]

I don't mind an involved Danny if it results in FA signings like this past year. If, on the other hand, it results in more Adam Archuletta's and Brandon LLoyd's, I would substitute "crappy" for "real interesting."

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;405484]I don't mind an involved Danny if it results in FA signings like this past year. If, on the other hand, it results in more Adam Archuletta's and Brandon LLoyd's, I would substitute "crappy" for "real interesting."[/QUOTE]

Call me old fashioned but I think football people should be making football decisions and owners should make ownership decisions.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

I thought it would be interesting to see what people where saying when Gibbs was hired but I could not find anything that far back. I did find this one thread and by reading these post (not sure how many of these people still post) Gibbs did not hit the mark people thought he would hit when he arrived. Gibbs did allot to help this team but I also think that he feel short in other areas.
[url]http://www.redskinswarpath.com/locker-room/968-how-soon-till-we-win.html?highlight=skins+superbowl[/url]

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=SmootSmack;405452]Look, it's one thing to disagree. It's another to call them blind, deaf, and dumb.[/quote]

99% of Redskins nation disagree. Which is my point, how can they not see, hear and understand the difference Gibbs has had on this team, front office and owner?

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

I don't think it's an issue of the effect Gibbs had on the franchise, but more of the results that were lacking, as well as the lack of structure left in the front office.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=SkinEmAll;405496]99% of Redskins nation disagree. Which is my point, how can they not see, hear and understand the difference Gibbs has had on this team, front office and owner?[/quote]
I don't think anyone would disagree that Gibbs left this organization better than when he arrived but I believe that allot of people (myself included) fell that he feel short in winning us game and making a run to a SB.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;405308]I posted this in another thread, but I thought people might want to compare our starters, pre and post Gibbs.

OFFENSE

LT = unchanged
LG = Dockery to Kendall
[B]C = Moore to Rabach [/B]
RG = unchanged
RT = unchanged
[B]TE = Zeron Flemister to Chris Cooley
WR#1 = Coles to Moss
WR #2 = Gardner to ARE
RB = Trung Canidate to Clinton Portis
FB = Bryan Johnson to Mike Sellers [/B]

DEFENSE

LE = Wynn to Daniels
[B]DT = Noble to Montgomery
DT = Dalton to Griffin
RE = Upshaw to Carter
OLB = Arrington to McIntosh
MLB = Trotter to Fletcher
OLB = Armstead to Washington[/B]
CB#1 = Bailey to Springs
CB #2 = Smoot to Smoot/Rogers
[B]FS = Ohalete to Taylor*
SS = Bowen to Landry[/B]

Aside from the Bailey/Springs and Dockery/Kendall swaps, we are in much better position today than we were 4 years ago. [B]Of the 22 starters Spurrier left Gibbs with, 11 are not even playing in the NFL[/B] (Ohalete, Bowen, Armstead, Arrington, Noble, Dalton, Upshaw, Moore, Flemister, Johnson, and Canidate). That's 50% of the team. Moreover, most of those guys are out of work due to poor play, not age or injury.

In short, we did NOT have a good roster in 2003. We appear to have a nice one in 2007.[/QUOTE]

Good comparison, Thanks. The flaw in all this better off talk is that it assumes the team has been "fixed". Unfortunately an NFL team is not like a broken car, a NFL team is never fixed. Players & coaches come & go. Injury happen. The team is always being tweaked, patched, etc. Its an ongoing process that is never done. Gibbs did some good things while he was here but he's gone now and his "fixes" will only last until the next tweak.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

So basically you're saying no team can ever be better off.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

There is always room for improvement. However, the progression from before Gibbs to after Gibbs is going in the right direction.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=irish;405486]Call me old fashioned but I think football people should be making football decisions and owners should make ownership decisions.[/QUOTE]

Well, what constitutes an "ownership" decision? He owns the team so, arguably, who he employs is ultimately an ownership decision., whether they be a player, coach or FO person.

What you really want, as many do, is for Snyder to be an open checkbook for, say Floyd Reese, as he was for Joe Gibbs. Essentially, you want him to cede control of his enterprise to a general manager/team president/ceo, etc. because you believe him to be (as many others do) incompetent in the personnel/talent evaluation phase.

I can't believe I am saying this but, and this is a big big "but", if he has learned patience and discarded his fantasy football ways, Snyder could do fine in the talent aquisition phase. Certainly when it comes to running the cap, the current FO arrangement has allowed some flexibility despite consistent projections of gloom and doom.

Again, the question remains - Do we get the the talent aquisition of the Smoot/Fletcher year or the Archuletta/LLoyd/Duckett year? If the former, Snyder is fine by me. If the latter, well, call me when he sells the team.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=irish;405512]Good comparison, Thanks. The flaw in all this better off talk is that it assumes the team has been "fixed". Unfortunately an NFL team is not like a broken car, a NFL team is never fixed. Players & coaches come & go. Injury happen. [B]The team is always being tweaked, patched, etc. Its an ongoing process that is never done. Gibbs did some good things while he was here but he's gone now and his "fixes" will only last until the next tweak.[/B][/QUOTE]

Huh? Did Gibbs' "teak[s], patch[es], etc." improve the team? From a personnel point of view, and based on SGG comparison, I would say most definitely. Further, it appears you are conceding (which Lenny P does not) that Gibbs [I]has[/I] improved the team.

The statement I bolded seems to assert that the moment anyone "teak[s], patch[es], etc." the Redskins then [I]all[/I] of the work done by Gibbs will be wiped out. That simply if far to broad a statement to be given credibility.

On the other hand, if you are merely asserting that it is possible that the next coach will completely unravel Gibbs good work b/c Snyder will simply go back to his old ways, fair enough. That could happen. But [I]that[/I] scenario is more than a mere tweak or patch.

Preliminarily, by making the bolded assertion you inherently concede that Gibbs HAS improved the team. The only question is whether or not the improvements he made will survive without him being present.

Essentially, it devolves back to the question that we all have and that only time will answer: Did Gibbs teach Snyder patience and will Snyder be able to be patient without Gibbs presence. IF SO then, I believe, we will be fine. If not, then God help all 'Skins fans.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=SkinEmAll;405449]I guess the more I read about our two blind, deaf and dumb fellow members,(by the way the blind deaf and dumb remark is not a personal attack, just an observation), My question to myself and everyone else here is.....why bother? Seriously, if these two and anyone else who is in agreement with them, cant see the difference in this team pre and post Gibbs II, well then to hell with em. I almost feel like they are doing it just for attention. I mean can someone really be that, blind, deaf and dumb?[/quote]


unbelievable for someone to post this crap. is it seriously needed, brother? Because some people look at the overall win loss record of the proof for change is not wrong.
i look at this two sided. 1 side - we are no better now than when Gibbs first got here 4 years ago. wins and losses ultimately make you or break you in the NFL. Yes we have made the playoffs two of the four years. great!! i love it. however, it took two miracle runs of 5 and 4 in row to go to the playoffs. if we have to make those kind of runs every year to make the playoffs, we may end up on the short end of the stick from time to time. When marty left we were 8-8, when spurrier left he was 12-20 overall, 8 games under 500. when Gibbs left, 5 games under 500. So, honestly wins and losses we are still the same team we were 8 years ago.

side 2. we are better off in terms of chemistry, draft picks for next year (minus a 4th rounder?) younger talent, making the Redskins matter again, making us feel more like a family. we are better off looking at it this way. Hopefully the Danny will learn patience, make the right move with the next coach (GW). if he hires someone else, Carroll, Cowher this roster will likely be blown apart to fit his style and that is 2 or 3 years of moves for us to compete. it all rests on one single move. the head coach. we need continuity, GW or Al is the only way we keep that, hopefully The Danny will realize this.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

This guy is obviously mad at the Redskins for something. He has been all hate for the Skins on all levels since I have been reading his writing.

I propose that from now on, we dont mention his name on the warpath, since we know he will just be trying to stir "hater-ade."

Anyone second that motion?

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;405308]I posted this in another thread, but I thought people might want to compare our starters, pre and post Gibbs.

OFFENSE

LT = unchanged
LG = Dockery to Kendall
[B]C = Moore to Rabach [/B]
RG = unchanged
RT = unchanged
[B]TE = Zeron Flemister to Chris Cooley
WR#1 = Coles to Moss
WR #2 = Gardner to ARE
RB = Trung Canidate to Clinton Portis
FB = Bryan Johnson to Mike Sellers [/B]

DEFENSE

LE = Wynn to Daniels
[B]DT = Noble to Montgomery
DT = Dalton to Griffin
RE = Upshaw to Carter
OLB = Arrington to McIntosh
MLB = Trotter to Fletcher
OLB = Armstead to Washington[/B]
CB#1 = Bailey to Springs
CB #2 = Smoot to Smoot/Rogers
[B]FS = Ohalete to Taylor*
SS = Bowen to Landry[/B]

Aside from the Bailey/Springs and Dockery/Kendall swaps, we are in much better position today than we were 4 years ago. [B]Of the 22 starters Spurrier left Gibbs with, 11 are not even playing in the NFL[/B] (Ohalete, Bowen, Armstead, Arrington, Noble, Dalton, Upshaw, Moore, Flemister, Johnson, and Canidate). That's 50% of the team. Moreover, most of those guys are out of work due to poor play, not age or injury.

In short, we did NOT have a good roster in 2003. We appear to have a nice one in 2007.[/QUOTE]

Sheriff, you should send this to Lenny "fats" and see what he has to see after this obvious upgrade, 2 playoff appearances, one playoff win, and a galvanizing of a distraught team after the death of Sean Taylor are not feats made by anyone who is average.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;405516]Well, what constitutes an "ownership" decision? He owns the team so, arguably, who he employs is ultimately an ownership decision., whether they be a player, coach or FO person.

What you really want, as many do, is for Snyder to be an open checkbook for, say Floyd Reese, as he was for Joe Gibbs. Essentially, you want him to cede control of his enterprise to a general manager/team president/ceo, etc. because you believe him to be (as many others do) incompetent in the personnel/talent evaluation phase.

I can't believe I am saying this but, and this is a big big "but", if he has learned patience and discarded his fantasy football ways, Snyder could do fine in the talent aquisition phase. Certainly when it comes to running the cap, the current FO arrangement has allowed some flexibility despite consistent projections of gloom and doom.

Again, the question remains - Do we get the the talent aquisition of the Smoot/Fletcher year or the Archuletta/LLoyd/Duckett year? If the former, Snyder is fine by me. If the latter, well, call me when he sells the team.[/QUOTE]

I think his fantasy football ways will be worse because he thinks that he has been "taught" by Gibbs.

I dont want him to cede control of his enterprise, I want him to listen to people who know football and football talent.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;405520]Huh? Did Gibbs' "teak[s], patch[es], etc." improve the team? From a personnel point of view, and based on SGG comparison, I would say most definitely. Further, it appears you are conceding (which Lenny P does not) that Gibbs [I]has[/I] improved the team.

The statement I bolded seems to assert that the moment anyone "teak[s], patch[es], etc." the Redskins then [I]all[/I] of the work done by Gibbs will be wiped out. That simply if far to broad a statement to be given credibility.

On the other hand, if you are merely asserting that it is possible that the next coach will completely unravel Gibbs good work b/c Snyder will simply go back to his old ways, fair enough. That could happen. But [I]that[/I] scenario is more than a mere tweak or patch.

Preliminarily, by making the bolded assertion you inherently concede that Gibbs HAS improved the team. The only question is whether or not the improvements he made will survive without him being present.

Essentially, it devolves back to the question that we all have and that only time will answer: Did Gibbs teach Snyder patience and will Snyder be able to be patient without Gibbs presence. IF SO then, I believe, we will be fine. If not, then God help all 'Skins fans.[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is that a lot of folks on this board make it sound like Gibbs fixed a broken team and now all it need is to be left alone so it can win. What I am saying is while Gibbs was here he did his best to make changes that in some cases helped and in some cases didnt. When the new guy gets here some of the changes will stay, some wont. An NFL team is a constantly changing thing.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[quote=SkinsFanSince91;405528]This guy is obviously mad at the Redskins for something. He has been all hate for the Skins on all levels since I have been reading his writing.

I propose that from now on, we dont mention his name on the warpath, since we know he will just be trying to stir "hater-ade."

Anyone second that motion?[/quote]
What so everyone needs to agree with what you are saying to not be a Redskins Hater. I guess your talking about 56fanatic or maybe even me?

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;405511]I don't think anyone would disagree that Gibbs left this organization better than when he arrived but I believe that allot of people (myself included) fell that he feel short in winning us game and making a run to a SB.[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of Redskins fans had very high expectations for Joe Gibbs, maybe even unrealistic expectations. Even though he didn't turn the team into the New England Patriots while he was here, the things he has done is quite an accomplishment. I believe a lot of people didn't realize how horrible this team was when Gibbs came back to Washington.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=irish;405536]I think his fantasy football ways will be worse because he thinks that he has been "taught" by Gibbs.

I dont want him to cede control of his enterprise, I want him to listen to people who know football and football talent.[/QUOTE]

He may well have learned from Gibbs. Perhaps, one of the things he learned was to listen to the right people concerning talent. Unlike like you, I do not think this is an impossibility.

That, I think is the crux of our disagreement - You have no hope that the post-Gibbs Snyder will be better than the pre-Gibbs Snyder. I have hope that he will.

[QUOTE=irish;405540]What I am saying is that a lot of folks on this board make it sound like Gibbs fixed a broken team and now all it need is to be left alone so it can win. What I am saying is while Gibbs was here he did his best to make changes that in some cases helped and in some cases didnt. When the new guy gets here some of the changes will stay, some wont. An NFL team is a constantly changing thing.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone is asserting that "all [the team] need[s] is to be left alone so it can win". Rather, we are asserting [hoping] that Gibbs [I]fundamentally[/I] changed Snyder's fascination with aquiring bright, shiny new toys (re: players) and trying the quick fix, and, instead, taught Snyder that continuity, commitment and high quality team players are the ways to build a championship.

If Danny has truly learned that lesson, then a new guy is not going change it and Gibbs positive influence will be felt lonnnngggg after Gibbs' departure.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;405594]He may well have learned from Gibbs. Perhaps, one of the things he learned was to listen to the right people concerning talent. Unlike like you, I do not think this is an impossibility.

That, I think is the crux of our disagreement - You have no hope that the post-Gibbs Snyder will be better than the pre-Gibbs Snyder. I have hope that he will.



I don't think anyone is asserting that "all [the team] need[s] is to be left alone so it can win". Rather, we are asserting [hoping] that Gibbs [I]fundamentally[/I] changed Snyder's fascination with aquiring bright, shiny new toys (re: players) and trying the quick fix, and, instead, taught Snyder that continuity, commitment and high quality team players are the ways to build a championship.

If Danny has truly learned that lesson, then a new guy is not going change it and Gibbs positive influence will be felt lonnnngggg after Gibbs' departure.[/QUOTE]

Nothing is impossible but I wouldnt bet my house on it.

Re: Len Pastabelly on Gibbs' Retirement: "Just An Ordinary Joe"
 

Fair enough. Neither will I.

How about a six pack?