re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=atomicnixon;510048]Even if we lose out and go 7-9, Zorn still should have a job next year. This is stupid, even as great a coach JG is, he went 6-10 his first year back, 8-8 (albeit after an 0-5 start) in his first year. Give Zorn some time, the personnel the JG put in place may be wrong for Zorn's offense. To call the offensive line bad is an understatement, Blache being a defensive line coach before should be able to get some pressure--another problem. If Clinton has such a big mouth, he deserves to be benched, he's injured no point in putting an early end to his career. We saw glimpses of what Devin Thomas can do--catch, so its not that bad. Remember when we fired Marty early? I thinks its too early to be calling for Zorn's head, give him at least another year if not more... great teams aren't born overnight or over an offseason... it takes time![/quote]

good post!

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

If we tank these last 3 games I can honestly see a change, and it wouldn't surprise me at all especially if he's lost the locker room. The honeymoon is indeed over, last week kinda cemented it for me personally. The offense can't score and the protection schemes are a joke. I'm tired of it.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I think a better move, PERHAPS, is getting an o-line coach who knows this kind of West coast system. I love Buges, but this is not his style, and the hybrid WC-Gibbs thing seems not to be working.

Still, if our players can't block on pass pro, I'm not sure what Zorn (or anyone) can really do. I've seen lots of failed one-on-one matchups as well as confusion.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;510052]If we tank these last 3 games I can honestly see a change, and it wouldn't surprise me at all especially if he's lost the locker room. The honeymoon is indeed over, last week kinda cemented it for me personally. The offense can't score and the protection schemes are a joke. I'm tired of it.[/quote]

From hip hip hooray to get the eff outta the way in such a short time. It's amazing how quickly fortunes change in the NFL. It's gotta be the most unforgiving (as far as performance) pro sports league around.

I'm tired of it too. If we don't fire Zorn, we need to hire an O-line coach who has worked with this kind of offense before. Maybe part of the reason we haven't drafted too many OL since Gibbs V2.0 is because Bugel had a track record of turning trash into gold. That's obviously not really the case anymore.

If we lose to Cincy this weekend, we will also lose to San Fran and Philly. From 6-2 to 7-9. That's what the Lions did last season.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;510052]If we tank these last 3 games I can honestly see a change, and it wouldn't surprise me at all especially if he's lost the locker room. The honeymoon is indeed over, last week kinda cemented it for me personally. The offense can't score and the protection schemes are a joke. I'm tired of it.[/quote]

Well if we totally tank and mail it in and the team quits then yeah, that would be a problem. But this losing streak has been to teams who are not only better than us, but are matchup nightmares. While the playoffs are a stretch at this point, a dominating performance against the Bengals and solid showings against the Eagles and Niners would do a lot to calm everyone down.

The biggest thing that worries me is the way people seem to be turning on each other, from the coach down. Campbell's recent article arguing basically that it ain't my fault was troubling. Zorn's well discussed refusal to take any blame is more troubling. This isn't like Williams calling out Arch in film meetings. Although people will have issues invariably you have to be able to keep it in the bunker. And when people start delegating blame in the media that's a recipe for an unraveling. And that's what has me most worried.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I don't see the run game as the issue. Getting killed week after week by the same blitzes tells me it's a pass pro issue, mainly due to the scheme. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out how to scheme for an overload blitz. Right now Zorn seems to be either stumped over trying to stop it or he's flat out ignoring that it's an issue. JC has taken some wicked shots over the past few weeks. I swear it's Spurrier/Ramsey all over again.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Zorn seems to be stubbornly sticking to a base 5 guy protection scheme and demanding that his o-line learn to block. Gibbs would routinely keep 8 guys in to block and send 2 guys out on routes. I think the o-line got spoiled.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Matty, in the nearly ten years that we've been conversing on the internet, these are the gloomiest couple of posts I've ever read from you. They are well-founded though.

I agree with you. If things start falling apart in the locker room and they can't finish better than 2-1 during this last stretch, the Jim Zorn experiment could be done for.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;510079]I don't see the run game as the issue. Getting killed week after week by the same blitzes tells me it's a pass pro issue, mainly due to the scheme. It shouldn't take a genius to figure out how to scheme for an overload blitz. Right now Zorn seems to be either stumped over trying to stop it or he's flat out ignoring that it's an issue. JC has taken some wicked shots over the past few weeks. I swear it's Spurrier/Ramsey all over again.[/quote]
You're defintely right, it's a pass-pro issue....but the first INT, Samuels just got beat. As a coach how do you account for that, you have a Pro Bowl LT out there, you have to believe he'll win that battle. Are you going to hold a back or TE in with Samuels? You do that, and now what do you do to help Jansen, who you know is struggling. What about anything coming up the gut? One of the overload blitz sacks was a BAD line call by Kendall, he's pointing down and there's 3 guys from Samuels out, at the snap he goes down to help Rabach with no one anywhere near his A gap. How is that Zorn's fault? Let's not forget Zorn is the HC, but Buges should have fixed the pass-pro issues if they were a scheme issue. We've got an OL that's struggling terribly and no scheme in the world can fix that. Bad OL = Poor offensive production.

And since teams know we can't pass, say hello to 8 & 9 man fronts....goodbye run game.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

So much for Gibbs bringing stability back to the organization. That notion didn't last too long.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GoSkins!;510087]Zorn seems to be stubbornly sticking to a base 5 guy protection scheme and demanding that his o-line learn to block. Gibbs would routinely keep 8 guys in to block and send 2 guys out on routes. I think the o-line got spoiled.[/quote]
Yeah, it is very similar to Spurrier. I was shocked that he let Giesinger out the on the left side, all alone. I was shouting at the tv, that Gibbs would never have done that. His excuse was he did not have time to make that decision. That was completely unexceptable. The whole game was very frustrating to me.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;510095]Yeah, it is very similar to Spurrier. I was shocked that he let Giesinger out the on the left side, all alone. I was shouting at the tv, that Gibbs would never have done that. His excuse was he did not have time to make that decision. That was completely unexceptable. The whole game was very frustrating to me.[/quote]

That one play definitely was unbelievable. How in the world do you send in the backup center to play LT and leave him on an island against a fierce pass rush? That just blew my mind.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GMScud;509872]Oh lord. Here we go. Our issues lie with personnel much more than coaching, IMO. The WCO takes time, Snyder knew this when he hired Zorn. Plus Zorn has made real strides with Campbell. Are we really gonna blow it up and start all over AGAIN? Another new offense?

Did Danny really expect a 10 or 11 win season right away when he hired Zorn? Maybe Snyder should read the "did the 6-2 start raise our expectations too high" thread.

Sadly, I would not be surprised if he fires Zorn.[/quote]


I hope he doesn't fire Zorn, but to be honest I do not think the WCO is going to get us to where we all want the team to go. I also fail to see where he has made strides with JC. The guy had very solid early games, but post bye has been mediocre. If we go 2-1 the last 3 weeks Zorn will be fine. The only way Snyder fires him is if we lose the rest and look awful in doing so. If Zorn is retained he has to retool the WCO or throw it out completely. One of the problems with our WR, other than not catching the damn ball is that Gibbs had a longer vertical passing game. Moss and co were originally brought in for speed and to spread the field. The shorter stuff gives the DB a shorter field to cover and lets the LBs more able to help out, thus speed is negated. This WCO really hampers the Moss effect for us.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Only time will tell (great song!) what's going to happen. I'm not happy with what's happening right now, but I can not fathom a coaching change next year. Zorn is stuck between developing his young players and winning football games. He's not going to throw in the towel to get his young guys in the game to gain experience with his system at the expense of benching the veterans that have stayed with the team through some serious times. He shouldn't be put under the same magnifying glass as the other rookie head coaches. Harbaugh and Smith get new QB's and RB's to play with. Zorn has to retrain his QB, keep a good but unfamiliar running attack and learn the speed of game-time decision making, all the while calling the plays on offense. He should get a pass regardless of our record this year. If things don't get progressively better as the 2009 season goes, then he should be let go.

Like a few others have said, I think a couple of "old guard" coaches and a few players will be dismissed after this year. We need a new WCO-minded offensive line coach.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I’m starting to think that maybe one of the reasons Gibbs used a more conservative Offense with max blocking schemes was because he had a more realistic assessment of the talent (or lack of it) on the O Line when it came to pass protection.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=YellowBirdy;510109]I’m starting to think that maybe one of the reasons Gibbs used a more conservative Offense with max blocking schemes was because he had a more realistic assessment of the talent (or lack of it) on the O Line when it came to pass protection.[/quote]

Excellent post.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Zorn won't be fired. There are several reasons for this statement:


1. Vinny hired him and isn't going to give up on this experiment that easily.


2. Snyder knows that if he fires a HC after one season, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE of any consequence will come here. The coaches that turned Snyder down last pre-season did so because of the perception that the Redskins have a chaotic and amateurish owner / coaching situation. He will stay the course no matter what to build faith for future hiring.

3. People forget that Snyder was going to give Steve Spurrier another year even after the team began to melt down horribly in his second season. Spurrier quit.

4. gibbs may have left because he knew this team wasn't going to be much better this year. I'm sure Gibbs will tell Danny to keep Zorn.

The problems the team faces will force Zorn to toughen up and release players and coaches this off-season. I see no way that Zorn will be fired. People just look at the Shottenheimer issue and forget what's happened since then.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Danny Snyder was going to give Spurrier another season [ss quit]. Spurrier had a .45 win/loss record and the team was melting down.


Danny Snyder was certainly going to give Joe Gibbs another season or more [he quit]. Gibbs II was at a .45 win/loss record.


So why would Snyder fire Zorn when we are still above .500 or at . 500 in his rookie season?

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Schneed10;510112]I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.[/quote]

Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;510119]Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.[/quote]


Nice post. If we fire a head coach who goes 7-9 [worst case scenario] in his first season, when he was forced to inherit coaches and a starting QB: then we are sending a message to our players and the NFL that we have absolutely no patience. We are telling everyone that the management has no interest in building a new program. That nothing has been learned since Shottenheimer was fired.


This is a "the sky is falling" article. Zorn will get 3 years as the coach, as a minimum - unless we have a season where we lose less than 3 games.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I honestly think Zorn is gone. When you make Portis mad the FO gets pissed. He then lost 4 pretty winnable games. You never know about Synder and his decision making and thats what should scare me if I'm Zorn.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;510119]Well let's be clear then that you're paraphrasing here because I'm not saying under any circumstances. I'm just saying that I think it's in the best interests of the organization to allow Zorn to battle through this. And show that he can battle through this. And with this swoon happening so late in the season it may be tough to fix this in just a few weeks. Particularly when some of the answers probably lie in getting new players on the field and new assistant coaches on the sidelines. I just think that if Zorn is so quickly dismissed then what sort of message does that send on down to the players about faith in them to work through adversity and about patience in building a long-term consistent winning franchise.

I was pretty adamant last off-season that it didn't matter that his staff for all intents and purposes was put together before Zorn was hired as head coach. That other teams (see the Dolphins) had done something similar. But I'm rethinking that. I think that maybe part of the disconnect is you still have a lot of Gibbs' guys in the locker room and that may not be entirely fair to Zorn.

Look, I wasn't the biggest fan of selecting Zorn in the first place as head coach. It was a bit of a head scratcher to me. He has a lot to learn about being a head coach-and we should have expected that-and I think he deserves at least a little more time to learn. I will be very interested to see how he handles the next three weeks.[/quote]

Fair points, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. One bone to pick though. I do agree that it bears watching how he handles this crisis over the next three weeks. But I don't think it's a matter of him showing that he can learn and work his way through this, I think it's a matter of him revealing his true character and working his way through it.

What he's about to deal with is not something you can learn. Bringing men together and uniting them toward a common goal, getting them to play hard and inspired for you is not a skill you can get better at. You either have it or you don't.

Either Zorn has the leadership abilities and pulls this team together in the home stretch, or he doesn't and the locker room remains a mess the rest of the way. Time will tell. But if we lose these three games and this locker room is still a wreck at season's end, then I've seen all I need to see. It will prove to me he lacks the leadership skills of a Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, John Gruden, Mike Holmgren, or Bill Cowher. I don't think you can learn how to get men to respect you and play for you - especially if you've already truly lost their respect to begin with.

Yes it would be horrible to tear everything down yet again. It would stunt Campbell and set back our long term planning yet again. But if the head coach lacks the leadership skill set, then I'd rather tear it all down and get started trying to build it back up again. I've seen a team hang onto a coach with no leadership skills before - I absolutely don't want a repeat of the Turner era.

So let's hope Zorn pulls this team together. Despite the pessimistic tone of my post, I am optimistic that Zorn can do this. It starts with the Bengals.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=A10sROCK;510125]Nice post. If we fire a head coach who goes 7-9 [worst case scenario] in his first season, when he was forced to inherit coaches and a starting QB: then we are sending a message to our players and the NFL that we have absolutely no patience.[B] We are telling everyone that the management has no interest in building a new program.[/B] That nothing has been learned since Shottenheimer was fired.


This is a "the sky is falling" article. Zorn will get 3 years as the coach, as a minimum - unless we have a season where we lose less than 3 games.[/quote]

But did management really have interest in "building a new program" in the first place? I mean they kept the defense, kept the same rushing attack, kept nearly all the starters, traded picks for an aging Jason Taylor...

It seems to me they were just trying to build off what Joe Gibbs had already built. If the coach is incapable of carrying Gibbs' leadership torch, then I think their intention is (and should be) to get someone who can.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Schneed10;510127]Fair points, and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. One bone to pick though. I do agree that it bears watching how he handles this crisis over the next three weeks. But I don't think it's a matter of him showing that he can learn and work his way through this, I think it's a matter of him revealing his true character and working his way through it.

What he's about to deal with is not something you can learn. Bringing men together and uniting them toward a common goal, getting them to play hard and inspired for you is not a skill you can get better at. You either have it or you don't.

Either Zorn has the leadership abilities and pulls this team together in the home stretch, or he doesn't and the locker room remains a mess the rest of the way. Time will tell. But if we lose these three games and this locker room is still a wreck at season's end, then I've seen all I need to see. It will prove to me he lacks the leadership skills of a Joe Gibbs, Bill Parcells, John Gruden, Mike Holmgren, or Bill Cowher. I don't think you can learn how to get men to respect you and play for you - especially if you've already truly lost their respect to begin with.

Yes it would be horrible to tear everything down yet again. It would stunt Campbell and set back our long term planning yet again. But if the head coach lacks the leadership skill set, then I'd rather tear it all down and get started trying to build it back up again. I've seen a team hang onto a coach with no leadership skills before - I absolutely don't want a repeat of the Turner era.

So let's hope Zorn pulls this team together. Despite the pessimistic tone of my post, I am optimistic that Zorn can do this. It starts with the Bengals.[/quote]

I can buy that. I mean it may be that he's just not cut out to be more than an Xs and Os coordinator. We shall see

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Mattyk72;510096]That one play definitely was unbelievable. How in the world do you send in the backup center to play LT and leave him on an island against a fierce pass rush? That just blew my mind.[/quote]

This is the kind of stuff that is going to happen to a rookie HC who has never even been a coordinator before, who has not only taken on the role of HC, but also OC and QB coach. I think he's got too much on his plate.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Schneed10;510112]I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.[/quote]If we set the Cleveland game as the benchmark for the start of our current consistent level of play, then we have beaten ALL of the teams we are supposed to beat since then. I still think St. Louis was a fluky game (I'm guessing we won't lose on a Guard fumble ever again).

People (and apparently, some players too) are getting driven up the wall because we don't have a quality victory since week 5. We are 0-4 against quality opponents in that time span. Which is disappointing yes, but does it really speak to a deeper problem in which I would expect the team to come out and underachieve against Cincinnati? I don't believe it does.

I think Zorn does have to keep the team playing hard here to keep his job, but he's kept them competitive to this point, I can't really fathom a result that causes Snyder to fire him.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=YellowBirdy;510109]I’m starting to think that maybe one of the reasons Gibbs used a more conservative Offense with max blocking schemes was because he had a more realistic assessment of the talent (or lack of it) on the O Line when it came to pass protection.[/quote]

If that was the case, then in 4 years as not only HC but also team president, why did we not bring in more O-line talent through the draft and free agency?? You may be right I don't know, but if you are, it's further evidence of the ineptitude of our FO.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;510131]If we set the Cleveland game as the benchmark for the start of our current consistent level of play, then we have beaten ALL of the teams we are supposed to beat since then. I still think St. Louis was a fluky game (I'm guessing we won't lose on a Guard fumble ever again).[/quote]

What a strange premise off which to build a logical argument. Why in the world would we set the Cleveland game as the benchmark? Given that we kept the same running game, defense, starting lineup, and assistant coaching staff, shouldn't last year's performance (9-7) be the benchmark?

[quote=GTripp0012;510131]People (and apparently, some players too) are getting driven up the wall because we don't have a quality victory since week 5. We are 0-4 against quality opponents in that time span. Which is disappointing yes, but does it really speak to a deeper problem in which I would expect the team to come out and underachieve against Cincinnati? I don't believe it does.[/quote]

I don't believe so either. Beating Cincinnatti is [U]expected[/U]. But if you lose this one, coach Zorn, the chatter will get much louder.

[quote=GTripp0012;510131]I think Zorn does have to keep the team playing hard here to keep his job, but he's kept them competitive to this point, I can't really fathom a result that causes Snyder to fire him.[/quote]

I think he'd at least consider it if they go 7-9. But it's not worth worrying about until we see what happens over the final three games.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

I don't think it is Snyder who needs to show he has patience, I think we as fans need to show we can disregard blatant fear/hate mongering and (probably) baseless rumors.
Zorn, or any 1st year coach that does not go 1-15, deserves a chance to re-group, and learn. Every great coach has had growing pains.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=GMScud;510130]This is the kind of stuff that is going to happen to a rookie HC who has never even been a coordinator before, who has not only taken on the role of HC, but also OC and QB coach. I think he's got too much on his plate.[/quote]

You got wonder though how much of it is due to him saying (as I believe he did this summer at one point), "Ok Buges, the line and running game. That's your responsibility so you take care of that." And then Zorn not properly overseeing that

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Schneed10;510128]But did management really have interest in "building a new program" in the first place? I mean they kept the defense, kept the same rushing attack, kept nearly all the starters, traded picks for an aging Jason Taylor...

It seems to me they were just trying to build off what Joe Gibbs had already built. If the coach is incapable of carrying Gibbs' leadership torch, then I think their intention is (and should be) to get someone who can.[/quote]


Gibbs II had a losing record. They brought Zorn in [first] because he was going to develop Jason Campbell to the maximum level.

Then they liked his ideas, drive and personality for the top job. If you give up on a guy after only a year - what coach will come here? Snyder would forever gain the Oakland-type management stink.

Snyder will stay with Zorn to show his perseverance. He was going to keep Gibbs and Spurrier - why would he suddenly change with Zorn?

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Schneed10;510112]I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.[/quote]

I agree with you 100%. If the guy can't lead men then he must go. But all this losing the locker room stuff could be a bunch of BS. Who really knows? We're not inside Redskins Park. He's probably lost Portis and CP is Snyder's guy.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

The tone of this thread seems to assume that we're going to lose to Cincinnati. Naturally, I don't suppose 99% of the people on this board really believe we will lose but close to the same wouldn't be all that surprised if we do drop the game. Aside from St. Louis, haven't we beat the teams we were supposed to beat? Haven't we lost to teams that were supposed to beat us? We're not playing good offensively. What a shocker! A first time play-caller and HC, who just so happen to inhabit the same body, needs time. I will say this, Zorn must evaluate his ability to adapt the way he wants to play with the hand that is dealt to him. The whole square peg/round hole crap applies here.

I agree that Zorn needs to show he can lead this team when the going gets tough but, in reality he hasn't failed that test yet.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;510137]You got wonder though how much of it is due to him saying (as I believe he did this summer at one point), "Ok Buges, the line and running game. That's your responsibility so you take care of that." And then Zorn not properly overseeing that[/quote]
GREAT point.

And to all this losing the locker room thing, veteran players need to have a meeting with Zorn this week, air whatever frustrations they have, get on the same page as Zorn and the coaches, then go back to the rank and file and tell them to STFU and get with the program....especially Portis, very good back, but I've had about enough of his mouth on the JT show and elsewhere. Get a thicker skin and stop being a baby. He needs to take a look at the number of zeros on his paycheck, shut up and just make plays. We don't need anymore drama at this point.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Schneed10;510112]I've seen a few posts in this thread, from SS and skinsfan69 in particular, stating unequivocally (and I'm paraphrasing here) that you don't get rid of Zorn after one season under any circumstances.

I could not disagree with you more.

If Zorn guides this team to wins against the Bengals and Niners, finishing at 9-7, then he certainly deserves to keep his job. I want to make that very clear first and foremost.

But if we drop all 3 remaining games? Lose to the Bengals and the 49ers? Collapse down the stretch? Start to lose the locker room? Finish 7-9 after making the playoffs last year while keeping the same defense and the same running game? No thank you, that's ineffective leadership.

Leadership positions are not the kind where you need to learn on the job. You either have a clue how to lead men or you don't. Offensive schemes, sure, they take time. But not leadership. You don't lose the locker room if you're a good leader.

But should offensive schemes even take all that long when all you have to do is install a passing offense? I'm willing to give Zorn two years to produce a passing offense worth a darn, a la Matt Hasselbeck. But he better get this locker room back in a hurry, or all the offensive scheming in the world won't matter. If you can't lead men then you can't be a head coach in the NFL.

Zorn needs to stop saying things like "we just didn't execute" in the papers. If you keep selling your players out like that and deflect the criticisms of yourself, you're going to lose the players' respect.

I don't like kneejerk reactions applied to coaching changes, but there are times when waiting and being patient reaches the point of diminishing returns. Once we found out Spurrier couldn't lead men, we wanted him out and couldn't wait until it happened. Zorn is NOT at that point, but if he doesn't get the locker room back and beat the sorry ass Bengals and Niners, he might be.

Leader first, scheme second.[/quote]

Finishing 7-9 after a 6-2 start is definitely the kind of stuff that gets guys fired all the time in this league. And the bigger issue like you mention is if he's lost the confidence of the players, forget about it. Snyder will be on the horn with Cowher in no time.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;510137]You got wonder though how much of it is due to him saying (as I believe he did this summer at one point), "Ok Buges, the line and running game. That's your responsibility so you take care of that." [B]And then Zorn not properly overseeing that[/B][/quote]

Yeah I mean you've got to wonder how much he really got involved with the run game. How do you integrate those two things- a power run game run by a departed coach with a previously unknown (to the players) WCO passing game? How involved are Zorn and Bugel in their gameplanning? It's worth noting that we have a new RB coach, a new OC and HC, all needing production from an O-line run by a guy who none of them have ever worked with.

And it's not like we had a legendary running game. Sure it was solid under Gibbs, but that doesn't mean Zorn couldn't have implemented at least some of his running packages.

I think to a degree the situation has been unfair to Zorn. We kept nearly every major coach (aside from GW leaving and S.Smith and Stump coming in), and never really let Zorn go through the process of building a staff. I think the hiring process has hindered Zorn more than him being given the job itself.

He interviewed for - and won - the OC position. Then suddenly he gets offered the HC position?? Of course he's gonna accept, and he wasn't gonna bitch about a staff either, especially with how late it was getting as far as coaching placement throughout the league.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=YellowBirdy;510109]I’m starting to think that maybe one of the reasons Gibbs used a more conservative Offense with max blocking schemes was because he had a more realistic assessment of the talent (or lack of it) on the O Line when it came to pass protection.[/quote]

Great post, I never thought of it that way. Even in the 80's and early 90's when the run game was their "bread and butter" they had a really prolific passing attack. It was odd that Gibbs went to such conservatism, but I think you're right, he made a great assessment on our pass protection.

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;510162]GREAT point.

And to all this losing the locker room thing, veteran players need to have a meeting with Zorn this week, air whatever frustrations they have, get on the same page as Zorn and the coaches, then go back to the rank and file and tell them to STFU and get with the program....especially Portis, very good back, but I've had about enough of his mouth on the JT show and elsewhere. Get a thicker skin and stop being a baby. He needs to take a look at the number of zeros on his paycheck, shut up and just make plays. We don't need anymore drama at this point.[/quote]

EXCELLENT POST!!!

re: D.C. Examiner: Zorn's job in jeopardy? (not so fast he's coming back)
 

Pretty good stuff from Boswell's article:

[I]There's a world of difference between a coach who never tells a lie (Gibbs) and a coach who gives himself the prerogative to tell the truth (Zorn). The first illustrates character. The second borders on being foolhardy.

Long ago, Walter Lippmann wrote, "The genius of a good leader is to leave behind him a situation which common sense, without the grace of genius, can deal with successfully."

A little more common sense, and a little less self-indulgent honesty, might have prevented it. [/I]