Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=The Goat;519919]... [b]also one could rehash the whole GD travesty surrounding Gregg Williams... I've beat that horse dead a few times already and won't repeat my same old blatherings but it is still significant IMO (if for no other reason that Williams is extremely well respected around the league and it's obvious to all but a few he was smeared by Snyder and/or his people).[/b] I mean really, does anyone think the great coaches [I]should[/I] have any respect for Snyder or want to give him a chance?[/quote]
What travesty is that? Did the Snyder smear cause him to get fired in Jacksonville also? The legend of GW is greatly exaggerated. He did a nice job statistically a few seasons, but we were never a game changing defense. Never had a lot of sacks, turnovers or defensive TD, things that actually matter on the field rather than in the paper.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

I think the original post made some valid points and there are definite mistakes with the Snyder era, but it's hard to truly take it seriously when the summary is Snyder bought the team to be General Manager.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

stop with your truth and logic already!!!

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

I'm glad these kinds of threads are back, takes some of the heat of Zorn and Campbell, lol.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519884]The legend of 'smashmouth football' is a past it's time. The team that has dominiated the NFC East for a decade has been the Eagles, a team that passes no less than 60% of the time. We've got to get away from our past and the 'pound the rock' mentality. The Hogs, Riggo, Joey T, Coach Gibbs are all the past, the present and future is winning through the air. By the way, New England plays in a cold weather area, how did their passing game fare the past few years? They've never been a running team and I think for the most part they did OK the past decade.

While Spurrier was a joke of a head coach, I'd bet as an offensive coordinator he'd be damn successful. Points are scored in the passing game in today's NFL. We've tried to get with the times but we've failed miserably at establishing franchise cornerstones at two positions, QB and #1 WR. Yes the lines are very important, but two teams with terrible OL this season were the Steelers and Cardinals. How did that work out for them? They have however elite QB and a legitimate #1 WR. You can get away with less than elite OL if you are elite at other positions. We're not elite anywhere, merely 'good' at a few spots.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. Yes your right the Eagles have dominated our division with a passing game over the past decade. On top of that the Cardinals and the Steelers are in the conference championships despite shaky o-line play. However all three of those teams have the most important asset in football. More important then a good head coach and quality coordinators, hell way more important then the O-line and the D-line combined. And thats elite QB play, if you have an elite QB you can do practically anything on offense. Wide Recievers don't mean anything without a QB, I mean just look at the Cardinals with Josh McCown or Matt Leinart and then again with Kurt Warner. The Lions tried to build with Recievers look how far that got them.

If you're trying to overacheive nothing will get you there faster then a Quarterback with 25+ TD and a 90+ QB Rating . In fact if you don't believe me then check out this article about how unimportant a true #1 reciever actually is. My favorite part being this:

[URL="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/reuben_frank/01/17/receivers/index.html"]SI.com - Writers - Reuben Frank: Big-time WRs don't win Super Bowls - Thursday January 17, 2008 6:07PM[/URL]

"Of the last 14 Super Bowl teams, only four had a receiver with 1,200 or more yards -- and three of those teams lost: The 2001 Rams with [B]Torry Holt[/B], 2002 Raiders and [B]Jerry Rice[/B] and the 2004 Eagles with Owens. The only exception was last year's Colts, the first team to win a Super Bowl with a big-time wide out since the Rams in 1999."

Now I'm not as into smash mouth football as you might think in fact I make as much fun of smash mouth football as I do air it out football, though it seems to be more of a slant against air it out here on the Warpath as it relates to me. However in building a team I feel that Smash Mouth football will win you more games. Still like any logical person I would like a balanced attack, though with a slight tilt towards the run considering how effective we were during the first half of the season.

[quote=firstdown;519909]Yea we saw that high flying O this year and Snyder stayed with Zorn so your argument does not hold up. Also last year we had several linemen we wanted that were gone by our pick.[/quote]

That was after the fact. Zorn was originally brought in here to reshape the passing game. In fact in terms of offense it was the only thing he really changed that and maybe a few new formations. So that doesn't really hurt the argument I'm presenting that Snyder is an air-it-out junkie who dreams of a day where the paper reads something to the effect of "Snyder was right as Redskins get it done through the air". Plus if he gets rid of Zorn who is he going to hire? My guess is that keeping Zorn was a combination of a promise he made to Vinny, the fact that no one sexy enough was avaiable to justify firing an 8-8 first year coach, and lastly the possibility that admitting the month + long coaching search was a huge mistake.

As for looking at the lineman before the draft last year. Well to tell you the truth thats my last ray of hope for this front office and I'm holding onto that like my life depends on it. So yes your right they did look at Branden Albert, Chris Willimas, Duane Brown, as well as Sam Baker so I do see that as a plus. Yet the bottom line is they came away with three pass catchers at with three picks in the second round. On top of that they were willing to part with their first round pick to acquire Chad Johnson as well as Anquan Boldin. So I cede the floor to you, but I stand by my point that Snyder's attempt to acquire a passing game have cost this organization dearly. Either way this is fun I haven't had a debate this engaging in a while.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=dmek25;519811]i will never bitch about Snyder. i think we are all in agreement he wants to win. and i would much rather have an owner that spends money, although maybe not the right way, then one who sits back and pretty much does nothing. perfect example is Jason Taylor. Phil Daniels gets injured late, and the skins definitely need a defensive end. so Snyder goes out and fills a need. was it the right move? probably not. but he did what he thought was right.[/quote]


This is sort of like acting on the principle of Ready - - Fire - - Aim.


Doing something even if it is wrong is not always a good thing. Spending money on the wrong players is not a good idea. Go read the column that started this thread and look at all the great signings that resulted from Danny Boy "spending money" (Bruce Smith, Jeff George, Deion Sanders to name just a few.)


I would much rather have Danny Boy spend less money and spend it more wisely.


OH, and by the way, it was Danny Boy who personally bragged to a Wash Post reporter doing a Sunday Magazine feature story on him that HE was the one who "found" Patrick Ramsey and made sure the team took him with the Skins' first pick. Sure, Dannhy Boy owns the team and that's his right. But tell me how that all worked out.


Oh, I forgot. Ramsey was ruined by Steve Spurrier or else he would be a Pro Bowler by now.


Well, if anyone still thinks Ramsey can play, we ought to get him in free agency this year because in the last 3 years he has only thrown 52 passes so his arm should be fresh and ready... Oops, that would mean that Colt the Wonder Kid might not make the squad next year. Bad idea. Sorry.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519924]What travesty is that? Did the Snyder smear cause him to get fired in Jacksonville also? The legend of GW is greatly exaggerated. He did a nice job statistically a few seasons, but we were never a game changing defense. Never had a lot of sacks, turnovers or defensive TD, things that actually matter on the field rather than in the paper.[/quote]

From an old thread I started:

[COLOR="Blue"]I'll admit upfront I was one of the few Skins fans who really, really believed Gregg Williams should have been promoted to HC within about 24 hrs of Gibbs retirement. As the JLC article (link below) points out, and I think we all knew it whether we liked or disliked Williams, the man who took this defense from an abomination to a top 10 d for three of his four years held immense respect from players, coaches and staff. I think it spoke volumes when players (from both sides of the ball if memory serves) expressed disappointment that he was not retained as the team's leader.

I'll also admit I thought Saunders deserved, based on the preponderance of evidence his long career makes available, the opportunity to be sole commander of the offensive scheme/playcalling for at least one full year. We will remember JC got the opportunity to observe at the end of last season how Saunders offense could engender some real success, and to boot w/ a less talented QB in Collins at the helm.

Snyder clearly chose to take the team in a very different direction, and I'm not just spewing sour grapes here... just give this another thought. As I've gotten more and more sick to my stomach at what has happened to the team I've searched out old articles, reread a lot of material. The JLC article I linked really struck me in January; however the following excitement of Zorn's hire put it to the back of my mind.

Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider

When I read it again (yesterday and about 10 times since) it strikes me even more. With Gibbs, the coach w/ the highest character any of us can think of, still packing his things at Redskins Park Snyder had already regressed into the immature, characterless goon he was 4 years earlier. While my heart goes out to nearly all of the players and most of the coaches (and us fans) over what has happened, I believe Snyder deserves the worst franchise in football. The smear campaign was a testament to his utter lack of decency, and while I don't really believe in Karma either... we reap what we sow.
[/COLOR]
Just don't mistake me. I have all the hope in the world Zorn has great success as our HC... my point (the forest through the trees as I see it) is beyond Zorn I doubt very much a quality, high-character guy will go to work for Snyder. Curious to know what you think...

Here's the actual link: [url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/01/gregg_williams_1.html]Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider[/url]

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

jeez that color is lame... didn't look that way in the little box. sorry everybody.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

Thank you Spence; I have been saying that for years. For the life of me I can not see why so many people stick by Snyder? Sure he gets the blame for [U]some[/U] things that are not his fault but the vast majority of the Skins past screw ups have been mainly him.

After he fired Marty to hire "Spurious" I knew either he had no idea how to run an NFL franchise or just didn't give a hoot.

Sadly he has not changed I our beloved Redskins might very well continue to be the Chicago Cubs of football.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=skinsfan69;519808]I think it's silly to bring up 1999-2003. [B]It's pointless. Gibbs has to take some responsibilty for some of the bad moves the team has made while he was here. And it doesn't seem Snyder is nearly as involved as Davis and Jones.[/B] But if Snyder REALLY wanted to win bad enough, he'd go out and get some people who really knew how to put a team together. Floyd Reece has been sitting out there for a while now. Why isn't he here in some capacity? Reece has as much experience as anyone out there. I know a lot of you out there will frown on it but Casserly knows the league and has helped put together SB winning teams. Why isn't he here? IMO Snyder doesn't want to win bad enough.[/quote]

"Gibbs has to take some of the responsibility"! JG only led the Skins to the playoffs twice in 4 years here. How many of Snyder's other coaches can say that? How many can say they even lasted 4 years here for that matter?

The fact that Gibbs came up one game shy of making the NFC Championship under Snyder is a testiment to Joe's coaching genius.

But you are right that there are GMs availiable who could do a better job than "Dan the Man":pffff:. Reece would be a big upgrade to whoever is running the show. Or someone from the Patriots FO. Really anyone who would tell Snyder "Butt out, sign the checks and let me do what I was hired
for." Sadly that will never happen because Snyder would never hire someone who would do that.

Another reason why Cerrato is the only GM who Danny boy want to work with. Cerrato has shown some idea of what he is doing but has not shown the testicular fortitude to tell our beloved dictator to handle the financial side and he'll do the football part.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;519935][b]I respectfully disagree. Yes your right the Eagles have dominated our division with a passing game over the past decade. On top of that the Cardinals and the Steelers are in the conference championships despite shaky o-line play. However all three of those teams have the most important asset in football. More important then a good head coach and quality coordinators, hell way more important then the O-line and the D-line combined. And thats elite QB play, if you have an elite QB you can do practically anything on offense. [/b]Wide Recievers don't mean anything without a QB, I mean just look at the Cardinals with Josh McCown or Matt Leinart and then again with Kurt Warner. The Lions tried to build with Recievers look how far that got them.

[b]If you're trying to overacheive nothing will get you there faster then a Quarterback with 25+ TD and a 90+ QB Rating.[/b] [/quote]
I'd respectfully disagree that we disagree. We agree that an elite QB solves many ills and can make a bad OL and mediocre WR into winners. Look at who's left standing in the playoffs. Outside of Fitzgerald, Boldin and Santonio Holmes there's not a WR out there that a GM would salivate over.

I think THE biggest mistake of the past 5 years was the Brunell trade, which by the way was all Gibbs. We could have had (at various times) Warner, Brees, Garcia, Pennington, Schaub to name a few and who knows what else may have materialized in the draft. Either way, we have consistently whiffed at getting a sure fire, elite QB. That above all coaching, coordinators and anything else has crippled our offense for the past 10 years.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=NM Redskin;519929]I'm glad these kinds of threads are back, takes some of the heat of Zorn and Campbell, lol.[/quote]

Agree, it's been a great discussion. Refreshingly civilized. A little speculative but interesting.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=The Goat;519939]From an old thread I started:

[COLOR="Blue"]I'll admit upfront I was one of the few Skins fans who really, really believed Gregg Williams should have been promoted to HC within about 24 hrs of Gibbs retirement. As the JLC article (link below) points out, and I think we all knew it whether we liked or disliked Williams, the man who took this defense from an abomination to a top 10 d for three of his four years held immense respect from players, coaches and staff. I think it spoke volumes when players (from both sides of the ball if memory serves) expressed disappointment that he was not retained as the team's leader.

I'll also admit I thought Saunders deserved, based on the preponderance of evidence his long career makes available, the opportunity to be sole commander of the offensive scheme/playcalling for at least one full year. We will remember JC got the opportunity to observe at the end of last season how Saunders offense could engender some real success, and to boot w/ a less talented QB in Collins at the helm.

Snyder clearly chose to take the team in a very different direction, and I'm not just spewing sour grapes here... just give this another thought. As I've gotten more and more sick to my stomach at what has happened to the team I've searched out old articles, reread a lot of material. The JLC article I linked really struck me in January; however the following excitement of Zorn's hire put it to the back of my mind.

Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider

When I read it again (yesterday and about 10 times since) it strikes me even more. With Gibbs, the coach w/ the highest character any of us can think of, still packing his things at Redskins Park Snyder had already regressed into the immature, characterless goon he was 4 years earlier. While my heart goes out to nearly all of the players and most of the coaches (and us fans) over what has happened, I believe Snyder deserves the worst franchise in football. The smear campaign was a testament to his utter lack of decency, and while I don't really believe in Karma either... we reap what we sow.
[/COLOR]
Just don't mistake me. I have all the hope in the world Zorn has great success as our HC... my point (the forest through the trees as I see it) is beyond Zorn I doubt very much a quality, high-character guy will go to work for Snyder. Curious to know what you think...

Here's the actual link: [url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/01/gregg_williams_1.html]Gregg Williams - Expect Him To Withdraw Saturday - Redskins Insider[/url][/quote]
I remember all of the Grilliams drama, but I still don't see where he was (as Emmitt Smith would say) travestied. He didn't get the job. He interviewed for it and obviously they saw something in the 4 years he was here to make them not assured he was the man they wanted. He proceeded to be one and done in Jacksonville with a TON of talent on defense.

If Zorn doesn't make it, I believe that will be the sign that Snyder will finally recognize that his way isn't working and he will give full reign and control to Shanahan (because Cowher and Holmgren aren't coming here) and back away.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519952]I'd respectfully disagree that we disagree. We agree that an elite QB solves many ills and can make a bad OL and mediocre WR into winners. Look at who's left standing in the playoffs. [B]Outside of Fitzgerald, Boldin and Santonio Holmes there's not a WR out there that a GM would salivate over. [/B]

I think THE biggest mistake of the past 5 years was the Brunell trade, which by the way was all Gibbs. We could have had (at various times) Warner, Brees, Garcia, Pennington, Schaub to name a few and who knows what else may have materialized in the draft. Either way, we have consistently whiffed at getting a sure fire, elite QB. That above all coaching, coordinators and anything else has crippled our offense for the past 10 years.[/quote]

You don't think someone would want Derrick Mason?

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;519872]Cerrato made the hires, and really it was only one or two new hires. Most were just retaining the current staff.[/quote]You're kidding, right? Where did Cerrato get the authority to hire coaches? Did he also arrange to have people flown in on Snyder's plane? Does he have Snyder's credit card or something?

Retaining coaches from an old regime is exactly what I'm talking about. Zorn was told who most of his assistant coaches were, including offensive coaches like Simmons, Hixon and Bugel, who had no history with Zorn at all.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Spence;519958]You're kidding, right? Where did Cerrato get the authority to hire coaches? Did he also arrange to have people flown in on Snyder's plane? Does he have Snyder's credit card or something?[/quote]

You'd rather he made the hires without the authority of the owner? There's not a single owner (worth anything) in the NFL who is not going to know what decisions his top executive is making

[quote]Retaining coaches from an old regime is exactly what I'm talking about. Zorn was told who most of his assistant coaches were, including offensive coaches like Simmons, Hixon and Bugel, who had no history with Zorn at all.[/quote]

Agree that when we decided not to move forward with an in-house candidate the best decision may have been to clean house almost entirely from the Gibbs 2.0 regime. But then we'd all be complaining about the lack of continuity. Furthermore, history with Zorn is somewhat overrated. Did Buges and Petitbon have a history with Gibbs?

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519956]I remember all of the Grilliams drama, but I still don't see where he was (as Emmitt Smith would say) travestied. He didn't get the job. He interviewed for it and obviously they saw something in the 4 years he was here to make them not assured he was the man they wanted. He proceeded to be one and done in Jacksonville with a TON of talent on defense.

If Zorn doesn't make it, I believe that will be the sign that Snyder will finally recognize that his way isn't working and he will give full reign and control to Shanahan (because Cowher and Holmgren aren't coming here) and back away.[/quote]

Why is Shanahan the favorite name dropped as of late (just out of curiosity)?

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=BaltimoreSkins;519957]You don't think someone would want Derrick Mason?[/quote]

He's far from being in their class. Mason is a fine WR, don't get me wrong, but that's like comparing a top end Hyundai to a Baby Bentley.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=The Goat;519963]Why is Shanahan the favorite name dropped as of late (just out of curiosity)?[/quote]

Just my opinion, but Cowher is VERY close to Schottenhiemer, mentor-type relationship. Nuff said there.

For Holmgren to come, Snyder would have to have just fired Zorn. That's pretty cold, to take over a team your boy just got fired from.

Shanahan has the name, the resume, the status, the repiutation, the ego and the greed to be a perfect fit.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519982]Just my opinion, but Cowher is VERY close to Schottenhiemer, mentor-type relationship. Nuff said there.

For Holmgren to come, Snyder would have to have just fired Zorn. That's pretty cold, to take over a team your boy just got fired from.

Shanahan has the name, the resume, the status, the repiutation, [B]the ego and the greed to be a perfect fit.[/B][/quote]

Never really thought of Shanahan as an ego and greed guy but then I don't really know much about him.

... be very surprised if Snyder ever gets a coach of Shanahan's caliber. It's critical Zorn makes a go of things.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519956]I remember all of the Grilliams drama, but I still don't see where he was (as Emmitt Smith would say) travestied. He didn't get the job. He interviewed for it and obviously they saw something in the 4 years he was here to make them not assured he was the man they wanted. He proceeded to be one and done in Jacksonville with a TON of talent on defense.

If Zorn doesn't make it, I believe that will be the sign that Snyder will finally recognize that his way isn't working and he will give full reign and control to Shanahan (because Cowher and Holmgren aren't coming here) and back away.[/quote]

So you talked to Coward and Holmgren and they told you this or its is something that you made up based on nothing.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519981]He's far from being in their class. Mason is a fine WR, don't get me wrong, but that's like comparing a top end Hyundai to a Baby Bentley.[/quote]

hey wasn't a Hyundai just voted car of the year? :)

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=NM Redskin;519929]I'm glad these kinds of threads are back, takes some of the heat of Zorn and Campbell, lol.[/quote]

Hey, we try! We are trying to bring some great content that generates great discussion from all view points. Over 100 replies in one day. Excellent job Warpath!

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

If we're going to talk about possible 2010 candidates (which is probably a discussion for another thread on another day), I put Brian Billick near the top of the list

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Bishop Hammer;519948]"Gibbs has to take some of the responsibility"! JG only led the Skins to the playoffs twice in 4 years here. How many of Snyder's other coaches can say that? How many can say they even lasted 4 years here for that matter?

The fact that Gibbs came up one game shy of making the NFC Championship under Snyder is a testiment to Joe's coaching genius.

But you are right that there are GMs availiable who could do a better job than "Dan the Man":pffff:. Reece would be a big upgrade to whoever is running the show. Or someone from the Patriots FO. Really anyone who would tell Snyder "Butt out, sign the checks and let me do what I was hired
for." Sadly that will never happen because Snyder would never hire someone who would do that.

Another reason why Cerrato is the only GM who Danny boy want to work with. Cerrato has shown some idea of what he is doing but has not shown the testicular fortitude to tell our beloved dictator to handle the financial side and he'll do the football part.[/quote]
The same genius who had to have Brunell?

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;519989]If we're going to talk about possible 2010 candidates (which is probably a discussion for another thread on another day), I put Brian Billick near the top of the list[/quote]

Is that just an opinion or do you have reasons to believe he would be a candidate? Not a big fan of Billick.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=celts32;519996]Is that just an opinion or do you have reasons to believe he would be a candidate? Not a big fan of Billick.[/quote]

A little both, more the former. Much more the former actually.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=celts32;519854]True Gibbs had final say but he was still deciding off of recomendations from his scouting department that was run by Vinny. If you recomend 3 bad ideas to me and I pick one then who's fault was it really?

Gibbs is a great coach but he never had a track record of good personel decisions...his biggest mistake in the 2nd go around was not insisting that Danny get him a real GM. But in truth Gibbs probably felt he could do it and was comfortable not having a GM on more equal footing with him like inthe old days.[/quote]

No. That is not how scouting works. Scouts are synthesizers. They watch thousands of plays and put together portfolios on players. They eliminate obvious "no"s and highlite obvious "yes"s. It is then up to the decision makers to poor over the synthesized data and watch pertinent film. VC probably had recomendatory responsibilities but in all reality does anyone think JG just let VC tell him who to pick? If that was the case then I lose a lot of respect for him. I doubt it worked that way though.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

You really liked your own points in that article.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519982]Just my opinion, but Cowher is VERY close to Schottenhiemer, mentor-type relationship. Nuff said there.

For Holmgren to come, Snyder would have to have just fired Zorn. That's pretty cold, to take over a team your boy just got fired from.

Shanahan has the name, the resume, the status, the repiutation, the ego and the greed to be a perfect fit.[/quote]

There is an interesting piece in Sports Illustrated about how the smart choice in NFL coaching does not seem to the recycled "name' coach anymore. Looking at the successful playoff teams they are new breed coaches not retreads that have come out of retirement. I think canning Zorn and hiring a retread like Shannahan or Holmgren would be a mistake and current history seems to bear this out.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=irish;520015]There is an interesting piece in Sports Illustrated about how the smart choice in NFL coaching does not seem to the recycled "name' coach anymore. Looking at the successful playoff teams they are new breed coaches not retreads that have come out of retirement. I think canning Zorn and hiring a retread like Shannahan or Holmgren would be a mistake and current history seems to bear this out.[/quote]
The problem with that is your really basing that off one year in the NFL and not the trend over a giving number of years. Just look at the last several SB winners Giants, Colts, Steelers, Pats, Pats, Tampa and the newest coach among them is Gruden. So history does not support your theory. It could also be siad that the Steelers coach (forgot his name) is playing with players he inherited from Cowher so its kind of hard to judge if he will be the next best coach in the NFL.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=firstdown;520027]The problem with that is your really basing that off one year in the NFL and not the trend over a giving number of years. Just look at the last several SB winners Giants, Colts, Steelers, Pats, Pats, Tampa and the newest coach among them is Gruden. So history does not support your theory. It could also be siad that the Steelers coach (forgot his name) is playing with players he inherited from Cowher so its kind of hard to judge if he will be the next best coach in the NFL.[/quote]

Its not my theory its what the author of the article said. Its an interesting article.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=FRPLG;519998]No. That is not how scouting works. Scouts are synthesizers. They watch thousands of plays and put together portfolios on players. They eliminate obvious "no"s and highlite obvious "yes"s. It is then up to the decision makers to poor over the synthesized data and watch pertinent film. VC probably had recomendatory responsibilities but in all reality does anyone think JG just let VC tell him who to pick? If that was the case then I lose a lot of respect for him. I doubt it worked that way though.[/quote]

I just find it hard to believe that Gibbs had the time to make these decisions without heavy imput from Vinny. Gibbs even said it was all of us every time they added a player. I don't think Gibbs blindly followed Vinny's opinions but Vinny had a significant role in the Gibbs front office so it's foolish to think that his opinions were not heard and valued.

I love Gibbs as much as or more then anyone on this board...but he was a coach not a GM and that is what doomed Gibbs 2.0 to the moderate success it had.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=irish;520015]There is an interesting piece in Sports Illustrated about how the smart choice in NFL coaching does not seem to the recycled "name' coach anymore. Looking at the successful playoff teams they are new breed coaches not retreads that have come out of retirement. I think canning Zorn and hiring a retread like Shannahan or Holmgren would be a mistake and current history seems to bear this out.[/quote]

In most cases I may agree with you, but in the Redskins (really Snyder) case, there would need to be a larger than life presence for Snyder to really back off and cede all power to a 'football guy'. I just can't see him bringing in a regular GM and a regular coach and letting them revamp our football ops.

Kinda like with Gibbs-I'll give you all control out of deference and awe but when it came to last offseason he didn't entertain anyone outside the organization for a GM but was willing (reportedly) to give full power to Carroll or Cowher.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;519952]I'd respectfully disagree that we disagree. We agree that an elite QB solves many ills and can make a bad OL and mediocre WR into winners. Look at who's left standing in the playoffs. Outside of Fitzgerald, Boldin and Santonio Holmes there's not a WR out there that a GM would salivate over.

I think THE biggest mistake of the past 5 years was the Brunell trade, which by the way was all Gibbs. We could have had (at various times) Warner, Brees, Garcia, Pennington, Schaub to name a few and who knows what else may have materialized in the draft. Either way, we have consistently whiffed at getting a sure fire, elite QB. That above all coaching, coordinators and anything else has crippled our offense for the past 10 years.[/quote]

Also keep in mind Gibbs always liked the older players that wouldn't make mental mistakes and cost the teams games. Even if the player was a mediocre player he found a way to have his team coach them up ie; Bugel. I don't know who his QB coach was during JG1 but if I remember correctly most of his QB's had a QB rating of like 70 something. Usually lower then all the other teams that made it into the play offs but some how Gibbs found a way to adjust his team to make take the win.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;520034]In most cases I may agree with you, but in the Redskins (really Snyder) case, there would need to be a larger than life presence for Snyder to really back off and cede all power to a 'football guy'. I just can't see him bringing in a regular GM and a regular coach and letting them revamp our football ops.

Kinda like with Gibbs-I'll give you all control out of deference and awe but when it came to last offseason he didn't entertain anyone outside the organization for a GM but was willing (reportedly) to give full power to Carroll or Cowher.[/quote]

That's the reason why the Skins wont be successful with DS in charge. He wont let the football guys do their thing.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

DS needs to get rid of VC and model our organization after the top franchises of the last 10 years. That would be Pitts, Indi, Pats, etc. Let a FO full of top football people hire their coach and run their system.

The funny part is that w/ a great FO this organization has the assets to be a top team year in and year out.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

What scares me most as a Skins fan is that Snyder is right around my age, which means that as a fan, I may have to resign myself to rooting for a mediocre team for [I]the rest of my life[/I]. During Gibbs 1.0, we won with dominant play on both lines of scrimmage. You can win with average QB's when the O line consistently knocks the opponent off the ball and protects the QB in the vertical passing game that requires a deeper dropback. Snyder clearly doesn't get this given the high draft choices and vast FA sums that he has poured into WRs (Rod Gardner, Laveranues Coles, Taylor Jacobs, Santana Moss, Antwaan Randle El, Brandon Lloyd, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly) with little regard to building a team that dominates in the trenches.

Imagine this: what if we had done the right thing, and drafted Steve Hutchinson instead of Rod Gardner in the first round of the 2001 draft. We would have had Stephen Davis in his prime, running behind a young group led by Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, and Hutchinson. That would have been a winning formula for years, but as usual picking a dominant G wasn't flashy enough for this FO.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SouperMeister;520056]What scares me most as a Skins fan is that Snyder is right around my age, which means that as a fan, I may have to resign myself to rooting for a mediocre team for [I]the rest of my life[/I]. During Gibbs 1.0, we won with dominant play on both lines of scrimmage. You can win with average QB's when the O line consistently knocks the opponent off the ball and protects the QB in the vertical passing game that requires a deeper dropback. Snyder clearly doesn't get this given the high draft choices and vast FA sums that he has poured into WRs (Rod Gardner, Laveranues Coles, Taylor Jacobs, Santana Moss, Antwaan Randle El, Brandon Lloyd, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly) with little regard to building a team that dominates in the trenches.

Imagine this: what if we had done the right thing, and drafte Steve Hutchinson instead of Rod Gardner in the first round of the 2001 draft. We would have had Stephen Davis in his prime, running behind a young group led by Jon Jansen, Chris Samuels, and Hutchinson. That would have been a winning formula for years, but as usual picking a dominant G wasn't flashy enough for this FO.[/quote]

Let's disregard 2001 because that was clearly Marty's year and Cerrato wasn't even there.

But let's also not act like the Redskins are ignoring the lines either. You can make the argument that they're not effectively addressing the lines, but I think it's wrong to simply say they're ignoring them. Or to pretend that all we do is go after WRs

Dating back to 2002 we have drafted 4 WRs, 6 OL, and 4 DL.

Additionally, besides going after Moss, Patten, ARE, and Lloyd we have gone after Andre Carter, Pete Kendall, Jason Taylor, Todd Wade, Jason Fabini, Chris Wilson (plus UDFAs Alex Buzbee and Stephon Heyer)

All which leads me to two points

1. We are definitely not ignoring the trenches, we're just not addressing them correctly

2. Scott Campbell should be held largely accountable for a lot of the late round misses due to his time serving as the team's Director of College Scouting. So I'm not sure I can or should continue to defend his ascension up the Redskins food chain.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=irish;520036]That's the reason why the Skins wont be successful with DS in charge. He wont let the football guys do their thing.[/quote]

Errrr. We have to get 'football guys' first! I don't qualify Vinny for that!