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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583432]You sound like an employee. 20-30? Not according to the Washington Post.

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203850.html?hpid=topnews"]washingtonpost.com[/URL]

I am not sure that you can be considered objective with what you have posted on this subject.

Btw, this Donovan guy sounds like a real slimeball, just like the owner.[/quote]

Yeah. But in reality, is anyone really surprised by this. Snyder is greedy, he has to make the most money, he has proven it. His ownership has been far from a success. His ticket sales are likely taking a hit, due to the economy and the fact that people are sick of watching mediocrity. I know of AT LEAST 13 different ticket holders that cancelled not due to the economy but a refusal to give Dan Snyder anymore money. People want to watch a winner at least once in awhile, especially paying the price they were paying, but consistently, the Redskins are no better than 7-9, 9-7 at best. Yes, there have been better years, but face it, they are not the norm, they are the oddity.

Donovan is just doing what he is told, much like Swanson who sounds just as stupid. To believe Snyder was clueless, ummm, yeah ok, this is a guy that runs Ashburn with an iron fist. $60000 transactions, thousands of ticket to one buy, and Snyder knew nothing. Sorry, I am not naive nor stupid.

It really is a shame. This is what the great franchise has come to.

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I wonder if the Redskins will sign Brandon Marshall in order to bury these ticket stories.

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[quote=souperbad;583483]137 lawsuits is a lot when you consider the fact that the article points out that there are almost no other teams in the league that sue their ticket holders. The Patriots said they sue their ticket holders in only rare instances.[/quote]

I cant get the quote at the moment but this is another reason I say the article is muckraking. The article points out about 12 teams, or 1/3 of the league that state they don't take this action, but makes a general point that other franchises declined to answer the question. If they do quick court checks, they could probably find out how many other franchises do conduct lawsuits out of the other 2/3 of the league. Perhaps they had a deadline, or were lazy, OR perhaps finding out that 60% of the teams do in fact invoke court action would have taken some of the steam out of the story.

I am jousting at windmills, would it be warm and fuzzy if they just wrote off the debt yes, could they afford to, on most probably, but is it the end of the world evil business that they don't, I personally don't see it that way.

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i don't understand why someone would sign a seating contract w/ the redskins.

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As an organization under Danny boy the Skins are loathsome piece of work. Hope grandma wins.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583499]I cant get the quote at the moment but this is another reason I say the article is muckraking. The article points out about 12 teams, or 1/3 of the league that state they don't take this action, but makes a general point that other franchises declined to answer the question. If they do quick court checks, they could probably find out how many other franchises do conduct lawsuits out of the other 2/3 of the league. Perhaps they had a deadline, or were lazy, OR perhaps finding out that 60% of the teams do in fact invoke court action would have taken some of the steam out of the story.

I am jousting at windmills, would it be warm and fuzzy if they just wrote off the debt yes, could they afford to, on most probably, but is it the end of the world evil business that they don't, I personally don't see it that way.[/quote]

You don't have to write off shit. What good is that' 100K+ waiting list? No pay, you forfeit your season tickets and someone else scoops them up. Perhaps that waiting list is all for show?

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;583499]I cant get the quote at the moment but this is another reason I say the article is muckraking. The article points out about 12 teams, or 1/3 of the league that state they don't take this action, but makes a general point that other franchises declined to answer the question. If they do quick court checks, they could probably find out how many other franchises do conduct lawsuits out of the other 2/3 of the league. Perhaps they had a deadline, or were lazy, OR perhaps finding out that 60% of the teams do in fact invoke court action would have taken some of the steam out of the story.

I am jousting at windmills, would it be warm and fuzzy if they just wrote off the debt yes, could they afford to, on most probably, but is it the end of the world evil business that they don't, I personally don't see it that way.[/quote]

I agree with you that there is some muckraking here. Snyder's relationship with the Post is no secret. However, he has brought this on himself. One, he purposely alienated one of the most prestigious newspapers in the country. Second, he created and fostered an unethical sales environment. Don't get me wrong, he isn't the first or the last and there are hundreds if not thousands of businesses that operate similarly.

But, don't have your mouthpieces such as Larry Michael come out and talk about how much the organization cares about the fans on a daily basis. That is horseshit. If a Redskin fan and a Steeler fan go to a game and the Steeler fan spends $5 more, he cares more about the Steelers fan.

What really bothers me is that this is an incredibly profitable organization. It would be one thing if they were a lot closer to breaking even and they did not have the ability, or had to put significant effort, into selling tickets tied to contracts but this is not the case. There is a huge secondary market between ticket brokers (who get called first) and the fan base. So these lawsuits are just pure greed on the organization's part.

How much is enough for this guy? I understand he is a businessman and he is a great one at that, but once you start ruining lives unnecessarily to fatten your bottom line you become something else.

Think if you have been laid off recently, maybe your wife has been laid off too. You used to do pretty well and go to games but can't afford your season tickets anymore. So you look forward to football season where you can forget about your problems for 3 hours every sunday. Then one day you answer the door and the team that brought you so much enjoyment for years is taking you to court.

I just cannot get over the last line of the article talking about the 72 year old who owes the team $66,364. "I just love the Redskins".

Snyder is taking a loyalty that he had nothing to do with developing and drowning people in it.

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[quote=saden1;583505]You don't have to write off shit. What good is that' 100K+ waiting list? No pay, you forfeit your season tickets and someone else scoops them up. Perhaps that waiting list is all for show?[/quote]


It certainly appears that this "waiting list" is a farce just like the organization's concerns for its fans.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583517]It certainly appears that this "waiting list" is a farce just like the organization's concerns for its fans.[/quote]

I couldnt agree more. IMO, the Skins wait list is one of the biggest myths in sports.

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This whole ticket debacle (questionable waiting lists, debatable season ticket policies) isn't something that began with Snyder's regime, though.

I think this probably falls under one of those legally right, morally questionable situations.

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[quote=sandtrapjack;583162]Are there any [B]$29 admission fees[/B] at FedEx?

Because in the new stadium at Dallas you can get a "party pass" for 29 bucks. See the game, drink some brew for just under 30 dollars. Not too shabby.[/quote]

the $29 ticket is brilliant on one hand, but we'll see how people act in standing room only. It may be an industry trend setter. Either way it was smart for JJ to come up w/that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing new cowboys stadium. In fact, I think its design & many of the unique features (not the jumbotron) will be copied throughout the league. It's just a matter of scale; once you have a stadium that big it changes the game experience & it also makes it more imperative that tickets are all sold.

JJ's business plan likely projects sell outs or close over the next x no. of years. If that doesn't happen, he'll have to find other sources of $ in ticket sales. He just financed 1.2 billion, they're going to have to make A LOT of financial decisions in the near future re: ticket prices & other services that will likely make the avg. fan unhappy. I think it's simply a fact of life for any team building a new stadium.

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I'm having a hard time caring about any of this.

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[quote=FRPLG;583545]I'm having a hard time caring about any of this.[/quote]

lol right there with you

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[quote=Mattyk72;583577]lol right there with you[/quote]

Makes three of us

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Damn..someone made the Wash Post angry. Real angry. I see both sides of the issue. A contract is a promise to pay. However, it could probably be handled a little better on the Skins side too. Let's face it, they should be trying to build up a little more goodwill than they have over the last 10 years. If there is $150,000 on the waiting list for "general admission" then they should just turn around and sell the cancel seasons tix. If it's corporated, then charge the customer cancelling until it gets resold. Goodwill and a good public image goes a long way. I'm sure the skins aren't the only ones doing it though.

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[quote=SmootSmack;583579]Makes three of us[/quote]
coming in 4th

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[quote=redsk1;583585]Damn..someone made the Wash Post angry. Real angry. I see both sides of the issue. A contract is a promise to pay. However, it could probably be handled a little better on the Skins side too. Let's face it, they should be trying to build up a little more goodwill than they have over the last 10 years. If there is $150,000 on the waiting list for "general admission" then they should just turn around and sell the cancel seasons tix. If it's corporated, then charge the customer cancelling until it gets resold. Goodwill and a good public image goes a long way. I'm sure the skins aren't the only ones doing it though.[/quote]

All good points. It's also kind of buried though that suing is a last resort for the team.

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[quote=SmootSmack;583591]All good points. It's also kind of buried though that suing is a last resort for the team.[/quote]

Yea, i'm ready for some football now. PS game tonight and then it's almost game week.

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[quote=SmootSmack;583591]All good points. It's also kind of buried though that suing is a last resort for the team.[/quote]

I would not say that its "buried" It's pretty obvious. Suing is always a last resort.

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[quote=FRPLG;583545]I'm having a hard time caring about any of this.[/quote]


I can see that view. Most people don't care about what other people go through unless it affects them personally.

Since you don't care about the organization raping some people in it's fan base, do you care that the people in the ticket office contributed to creating a home field disadvantage against the Steelers game last year? Because every fan should be pissed and embarassed that our offense had to use a silent snap count in our own stadium.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583605]I can see that view. Most people don't care about what other people go through unless it affects them personally.

[B]Since you don't care about the organization raping some people in it's fan base[/B], do you care that the people in the ticket office contributed to creating a home field disadvantage against the Steelers game last year? Because every fan should be pissed and embarassed that our offense had to use a silent snap count in our own stadium.[/quote]

That's pretty harsh really.


I suppose I care, but this just seems so dang out of whack. Heck didn't you see that DS is the 8th best owner according to Yahoo sports. Geez that proves everything. [/sarcasm]

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583605]I can see that view. Most people don't care about what other people go through unless it affects them personally.

Since you don't care about the organization raping some people in it's fan base, do you care that the people in the ticket office contributed to creating a home field disadvantage against the Steelers game last year? Because every fan should be pissed and embarassed that our offense had to use a silent snap count in our own stadium.[/quote]

Actually I mostly don't care because I don't see what the big deal is. It's a business. I'm surprised people are surprised that profit maximizing goes on. I am surprised people are surprised the Skins sue people to pay their contractual obligations. I am surprised people think that Dan Snyder micromanages to a point where he'd have any idea how tickets get sold in the ticket office with any pertinent amount of detail. Mostly I am NOT surprised at the "outrage" since there are certain segments for people who are never going to care for the FO under Dan Snyder no matter what. With the WaPo leading that charge.

And no the issue with the Steelers game wasn't largely the team's fault. The issue is that lots of people sold their tickets. The tickets are expensive and games require commitment. Some people don't have that time and money. The size of the stadium increases the likelihood that there are a good number of "fans" who sell their tickets and there always will be, whether the team is winning games or not.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583605]I can see that view. Most people don't care about what other people go through unless it affects them personally. [/quote]

Oh, and as for this snarky shot I would caution you against making assumptions about how much I care about other people. I care plenty. I also think the deadbeats ought to pay their contractual obligations. Financial circumstances not-withstanding they still owe the money. If you can show me how the team is "raping" anyone maybe I'll care.

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[quote=freddyg12;583521]
JJ's business plan likely projects sell outs or close over the next x no. of years. If that doesn't happen, he'll have to find other sources of $ in ticket sales. He just financed 1.2 billion, they're going to have to make A LOT of financial decisions in the near future re: ticket prices & other services that will likely make the avg. fan unhappy. I think it's simply a fact of life for any team building a new stadium.[/quote]
Income like College Games, World Soccer, concerts, All Star Games, and most assuredly a Super Bowl?

All of which are already on slate and scheduled.

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[quote=FRPLG;583611]And no the issue with the Steelers game wasn't largely the team's fault. The issue is that lots of people sold their tickets..[/quote]

I care about this issue but I agree that the Steelers game has NOTHING to do with this issue. People need to realize that the Steelers game was a fact of economic life...a perfect storm if you will...and it will happen again.

Fact #1) Nobody lives western PA anymore. There are no jobs in Pittsburgh. All of the Steelers fans have moved here. In every job I have ever had...there has always been 1 or 2 transplants from PA working with me. I am sure you all have notices this too. This fact is called, "High Demand."

Fact #2) The Steelers coming to DC for a regular season game is a very rare occurence. Under the current NFL schedule rotation, the Steelers will come to Fed Ex once every 8 years. But last year was the first time, I can't rememeber the Steelers comeing to DC for a regular season game in my lifetime. This makes the event a rare occurence. This fact is called "Low Supply"

Fact #3) Season Ticker Holders don't go to every game. They pay a lot of money for their seats and they sell some games each year to make up their losses. They tend to sell the games that differ from their Sunday Game Day Football Routine. They also sell games that bring a lot of money ...such as a high demand low supply Steelers Game. Season ticket holders take a beating on the pre-season games and other lame games like the St. Louis, Kansas City and such.

It will happen again when the Steelers come back to town.

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Steelers, as I understand it, have a pretty rabid fan base world wide. They'll travel anywhere to see their team. And yes, that's not really relevant to this story

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[quote=FRPLG;583613]Oh, and as for this snarky shot I would caution you against making assumptions about how much I care about other people. I care plenty. I also think the deadbeats ought to pay their contractual obligations. Financial circumstances not-withstanding they still owe the money. If you can show me how the team is "raping" anyone maybe I'll care.[/quote]

There was nothing snarky about it. I bet if it was your 72 year old family member who has supported the team for 50 years, you would have a different viewpoint. You don't care about these Redskins fans and how they have been treated by the team and no one said that you have to. Caution me all you want. I could care less about what concerns you.

When they sue someone for the face value of the tickets associated with a contract along with the legal fees associated with the judgement and then resell those same tickets to a ticket broker or someone else, that is raping your fanbase in my book. People can call it maximizing profits or whatever you want but I think it is wrong to treat people that way. Especially when you lie to everyone who will listen and say the wait list is 160,000. Now, if they come out and say that people defaulting on obligations is negatively impacting the business, then I would cut them some slack. But they have never said that. They consistently boast that there are thousands upon thousands of people waiting to buy season tickets. If that was the case, why even go through the trouble to sue someone who has hit hard times, just call the next person on the list.

Here is another example of Snyder blatently lying to us. He came on 980 and said that the new tailgaiting rules would actually make things better for the fans. I spoke to my brother in law who went to the Pats game and confirmed that Snyder's spin was just untrue. If you want to grill out and have a typical tailgate, you better get there very early and get ready to park in the furthest row in your section. This change was to maximize parking revenue, not enhance anything for the fans.

I am just tired of hearing them blatently lie to their fans.

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[quote=FRPLG;583613]Oh, and as for this snarky shot I would caution you against making assumptions about how much I care about other people. I care plenty. I also think the deadbeats ought to pay their contractual obligations. Financial circumstances not-withstanding they still owe the money. If you can show me how the team is "raping" anyone maybe I'll care.[/quote]

But you don't understand. This isn't a business we're talking about. It's just a game. The Redskins don't have bills to pay

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[quote=souperbad;583619]I care about this issue but I agree that the Steelers game has NOTHING to do with this issue. People need to realize that the Steelers game was a fact of economic life...a perfect storm if you will...and it will happen again.

Fact #1) Nobody lives western PA anymore. There are no jobs in Pittsburgh. All of the Steelers fans have moved here. In every job I have ever had...there has always been 1 or 2 transplants from PA working with me. I am sure you all have notices this too. This fact is called, "High Demand."

Fact #2) The Steelers coming to DC for a regular season game is a very rare occurence. Under the current NFL schedule rotation, the Steelers will come to Fed Ex once every 8 years. But last year was the first time, I can't rememeber the Steelers comeing to DC for a regular season game in my lifetime. This makes the event a rare occurence. This fact is called "Low Supply"

Fact #3) Season Ticker Holders don't go to every game. They pay a lot of money for their seats and they sell some games each year to make up their losses. They tend to sell the games that differ from their Sunday Game Day Football Routine. They also sell games that bring a lot of money ...such as a high demand low supply Steelers Game. Season ticket holders take a beating on the pre-season games and other lame games like the St. Louis, Kansas City and such.

It will happen again when the Steelers come back to town.[/quote]


I will also mention that I do not blame any fan who sold their tickets to a Steelers fan. If someone can pay for their season tickets for the year by selling one or two games to an opposing fan, more power to them.

Snyder does the exact same thing so I will never criticize a fan for doing it. He had made gameday such an expensive event that people are foolish not to sell a game or two.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583625]There was nothing snarky about it. I bet if it was your 72 year old family member who has supported the team for 50 years, you would have a different viewpoint. You don't care about these Redskins fans and how they have been treated by the team and no one said that you have to. Caution me all you want. I could care less about what concerns you.[/quote]

I think we can all agree none of us care about anyone else...except Matty, we have to at least pretend we care about him. Otherwise, there would be no place for us to tell each other how much we don't care about each other.

[quote]When they sue someone for the face value of the tickets associated with a contract along with the legal fees associated with the judgement and then resell those same tickets to a ticket broker or someone else, that is raping your fanbase in my book.[/quote]

Again, a last resort. An unfortunate last resort. Legally right, morally questionable certainly.

[quote] People can call it maximizing profits or whatever you want but I think it is wrong to treat people that way. Especially when you lie to everyone who will listen and say the wait list is 160,000. Now, if they come out and say that people defaulting on obligations is negatively impacting the business, then I would cut them some slack.[/quote]

I don't buy that. No one believes it any time the Redskins say that anything is negatively impacting the business. Because the response is "Well how did you afford to pay Haynesworth $100 million?" And again, the question of the wait list has been an issue lonnnng before Snyder.

[quote]Here is another example of Snyder blatently lying to us. He came on 980 and said that the new tailgaiting rules would actually make things better for the fans. I spoke to my brother in law who went to the Pats game and confirmed that Snyder's spin was just untrue. If you want to grill out and have a typical tailgate, you better get there very early and get ready to park in the furthest row in your section. This change was to maximize parking revenue, not enhance anything for the fans.[/quote]

Well if your brother in law says it's a lie, then it must be

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[quote=SmootSmack;583626]But you don't understand. This isn't a business we're talking about. It's just a game. The Redskins don't have bills to pay[/quote]


Smoot, if they come out and say that they cannot sell the tickets on defaulted contracts and that these people are creating a significant drain on their revenue, I would side with them. They have never said that. They talk about the 160,000 strong waiting list.

Which is it?

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583633]Smoot, if they come out and say that they cannot sell the tickets on defaulted contracts and that these people are creating a significant drain on their revenue, I would side with them. They have never said that. They talk about the 160,000 strong waiting list.

Which is it?[/quote]

I'll raise a practical question. The tickets in question, which they're suing over, are they club levels or what? Not that you specifically have to answer Pockets. Anyone please..

If they are club levels (I don't know if club and loge are the same here) then A) the list doesn't apply and B) they can't sell those out so it's not like they having an easy time finding people to buy those.

Now I can understand the moral indignation if they are suing over tickets they could just sell to someone else. I'm not buying that particular potion but I can understand it.

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[quote=Pocket$ $traight;583629]I will also mention that I do not blame any fan who sold their tickets to a Steelers fan. If someone can pay for their season tickets for the year by selling one or two games to an opposing fan, more power to them.

Snyder does the exact same thing so I will never criticize a fan for doing it. He had made gameday such an expensive event that people are foolish not to sell a game or two.[/quote]

I would agree. And I would note that most season ticket holders DONT make make good money on these tickets they sell. I think it is a myth that fans can pay for their season tickets by selling a few games. I have season tickets in the last row of the stadium and their "secondary market" value is quite worthless. Last year, I could not make the Arizona game and I could not sell my tickets for $25. Seriously.

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[quote=FRPLG;583636]I'll raise a practical question. The tickets in question, which they're suing over, are they club levels or what? Not that you specifically have to answer Pockets. Anyone please..

If they are club levels (I don't know if club and loge are the same here) then A) the list doesn't apply and B) they can't sell those out so it's not like they having an easy time finding people to buy those.

Now I can understand the moral indignation if they are suing over tickets they could just sell to someone else. I'm not buying that particular potion but I can understand it.[/quote]

You are correct. They are suing over club level seat, the list does not apply AND they have a hard time selling these seats (which is why they sue).

But where the "raping" comes in to play is the way they get these fans into these multi year mega buck contracts via dubious sales techniques. A lot of these fans don't know what they are getting into because the ticket office does not tell them the truth or the ticket office simply commits outright fraud (e.g. altering the contract after they sign it as in the aforementioned picture in the Wash Post).

Then suing these people after you have tricked them into these contracts is a raping.

Personally, I thing the ticket sales office is out of hand and I would prefer them to have a more transparent and fair operation. I don't dislike Dan Snyder or really have a problem with anything else he has done. Allthough, he is the top dog so he must be held responsible to some extent.

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[quote=souperbad;583653]But where the "raping" comes in to play is the way they get these fans into these multi year mega buck contracts via dubious sales techniques. A lot of these fans don't know what they are getting into because the ticket office does not tell them the truth or the ticket office simply commits outright fraud (e.g. altering the contract after they sign it as in the aforementioned picture in the Wash Post).[/quote]

I just can't buy this for a couple reasons.

First off anyone "tricked" into signing a contract deserves what comes to them. I'm tired of hearing about "dubious sales techniques" and "predatory lending" type arguments. If you sign a contract and don't understand what it says on the paper that is on you.

As far as them altering contacts I find it hard to believe that this is some type of organizational practice. Maybe a person in the sales office did it and for that they should get in serious trouble but I just can't believe the ticket office, as a practice, would do things like this when it is so obviously going to come out.

And I am done...I have written way too much on something I don't really care about. Either way.

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[quote=FRPLG;583658]I just can't buy this for a couple reasons.[/quote]

Well, you don't have to buy this. But whatever you do: Don't buy club level seats! You get way more then you bargained for.

Generally, I don't feel sorry about anyone who signed a contract either. But I do feel it is a good thing that we warn fans about these sales techniques so they don't get suckered too. Also, I kinda wish it was the Cowboys who where suckering their fans.

As far as the fraud in the ticket office. I too doubt that it is an organizational practice. Probably, only happens to 3 or 4 fans a year.

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[quote=souperbad;583653]You are correct. They are suing over club level seat, the list does not apply AND they have a hard time selling these seats (which is why they sue).

But where the "raping" comes in to play is the way they get these fans into these multi year mega buck contracts via dubious sales techniques. A lot of these fans don't know what they are getting into because the ticket office does not tell them the truth or the ticket office simply commits outright fraud (e.g. altering the contract after they sign it as in the aforementioned picture in the Wash Post).

Then suing these people after you have tricked them into these contracts is a raping.

Personally, I thing the ticket sales office is out of hand and I would prefer them to have a more transparent and fair operation. I don't dislike Dan Snyder or really have a problem with anything else he has done. Allthough, he is the top dog so he must be held responsible to some extent.[/quote]

I was always taught to read anything before I signed it.
If you don't understand it...don't sign it.

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The Washington Post sucks.

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[quote=53Fan;584117]The Washington Post sucks.[/quote]


Now that is pretty funny!

I think I am going to sue Tom Boswell for using many of my points on this issue. That is what the little man would do.

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[quote=skinz30;584106]I was always taught to read anything before I signed it.
If you don't understand it...don't sign it.[/quote]

I think the people read and understood what they signed (except for the guy that said the team chacked boxes he didnt) and it is a contract but with so many people supposedly on the wait list I find it hard to believe they cant sell these club tickets. The Skins are a business but they are more than that, they are, like Boswell says, a public trust. They arent a furniture store, they are an icon that people grow up with and develop deep emotional ties to. I just dont see how the few extra $ they recovered in these lawsuits outweighs the incredible negative publicity from this. Also, by the time the team goes through all the time and effort of chasing these cases, how much money is really made? I suspect not much to make it worth all this mess. Why the Skins just wouldnt have said to those sued, "we are sorry you are no longer interested thanks for your support" and just walked away is beyond me.