Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=JGisLordOfTheRings;603321]I was at the game and some of Kelly and Thomas not getting the ball is on JC's bad reads. On the last interception he threw, he had Kelly in the slot on the left and he BLEW past his guy and was wide but JC was locked on Moss and made an awful decision.

I like JC, but his inability to read the field is killing us.[/quote]

Ditto. Watched the game from the end zone viewpoint and me and the other 20 people I was watching the game with could see guys being missed all day long. There were WRs in single coverage all over the place, but Campbell wasn't going to them. Instead, he was forcing the ball into double coverage or going to the route that was 5-15 yards in the middle of the field. Even when passes were completed, the receivers had nowhere to go, because there were 2-4 Defenders in their vicinity.

And the separation argument is a joke. It assumes every Defense plays us man to man every play of the game. Watch other teams and you'll see receivers running to spots in the zone defense and the ball getting there at the same time.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=redsk1;603336]Rodgers oline broke down and he found every receiver on the roster.[/quote]

The packers wr corp is a lot better than our and their o-line is too

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;602896]Yeah its called bad evaluations by our FO. We knew what the rap was on Thomas and Kelly before they got here.

Kelly was slow

Thomas was not that experienced.

This analysis is proving true and rearing its ugly head.

But what makes you think Marko would fail. He has nothing to lose. He is the hungriest out the bunch. I heard him say in a interview that he iwill not be content at jsut making the team. He wants to move up the depth chart. I like that!! Shows heart and determination and swagger and he was the recevier that gained the most respect this offseason. Ask Carlos Rogers..ask D Hall. ask CP!! These are players not fans like us. They saw him on the field everyday. He attacked not just went through the motions. But all in all we will never know unless Zorn gives him a chance. I hope he does in the next few weeks.[/quote]


Everybody in his position says that, if he was that good he would have been on the field a few times already. I am not so sure that those comments from Portis weren't made in jest to poke fun at Carlos Rogers. If he (Mitchell) is really that good he will get a shot sooner or later. Based on everything else that I have seen though, I do not believe that he would fair better than Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=redsk1;603336]Rodgers oline broke down and he found every receiver on the roster.[/quote]He also did it in what some would call "garbage time", which is useful for discrediting the accomplishments of players you don't like.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;603370]He also did it in what some would call "garbage time", which is useful for discrediting the accomplishments of players you don't like.[/quote]

Ah yes the garbage time, I guess Phillip Rivers is guilty of garbage time TDs.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;603388]Ah yes the garbage time, I guess Phillip Rivers is guilty of garbage time TDs.[/quote]He should be cut immediately.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;603167]I'm sorry, but a combined 10 receptions for 82 yards for 3X 2nd round picks is unacceptable. Thomas has a whopping reception, big Fred 3 and Malcom 6. Time to go back to the drawing board like the defense did this week and get these guys more involved.[/quote]

I agree. It's totally 100% unaccepatable. JC needs to start looking more for these guys but they also need to get open more. I'm not saying we need to change QB's but it would be interesting to see if the offense would run smoother if Collins was in there for a series or two.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Angry;603368]Everybody in his position says that, if he was that good he would have been on the field a few times already. I am not so sure that those comments from Portis weren't made in jest to poke fun at Carlos Rogers. If he (Mitchell) is really that good he will get a shot sooner or later. Based on everything else that I have seen though, I do not believe that he would fair better than Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas.[/quote]

They say its more of less him learning the plays. Not talent. He was more of a deep threat at Nevada. Saying that why can't we use him in certain situations liek endzone or being a deep threat?

Also some one is saying that we are expecting them to be 1,000 yard receivers. I dont think that is the case. We just want them to make "some" plays. Right now they are making none. Kelly will improve when he learns to use his size to shield/post up defenders and make himself a more viable and safe target.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=redsk1;603336]Rodgers oline broke down and he found every receiver on the roster.[/quote]
The Packers offensive line looked worse than the Redskins. Rodgers was getting pressure from the outside and up the middle. When he did get time, he did a great job of spreading the ball around, but their offensive line sucks or the Vikings defensive line is the best in the league. Rodgers looked like Campbell on a few plays, holding on the ball too long, taking unnecessary sacks and fumbling the ball on contact. I guess even the good quarterbacks fumble the ball and throw interceptions when pressured. According to this site, only Jason Campbell makes mistakes when he is under fire.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;603441]The Packers offensive line looked worse than the Redskins. Rodgers was getting pressure from the outside and up the middle. When he did get time, he did a great job of spreading the ball around, but their offensive line sucks or the Vikings defensive line is the best in the league. Rodgers looked like Campbell on a few plays, holding on the ball too long, taking unnecessary sacks and fumbling the ball on contact. I guess even the good quarterbacks fumble the ball and throw interceptions when pressured. According to this site, only Jason Campbell makes mistakes when he is under fire.[/quote]

I totally agree and yes the Vikings d-line (similar to the Giants) and defense as a whole is that good. Good QBs make mistakes also. If some people can remember when we played the Giants. Manning had a similar line to JC's. He had a fumble and a int in that game also. In the game against KC he had a fumble also. Dont know about the rest of his line in that game. But even good QBs on undefeated teams make mistakes.

Do some recall what happened when Coughlin got to New York. How people were saying the same things about Eli Manning as they were about Campbell (difference is Eli had more years under his belt -- allowed to make mistakes and grown-- and so did his brother for that matter). How they started off rough. Can anyone tell me what happened after that? Not saying that JC is Eli or we are the Giants. But there are alot of similarities. The difference is between our FO and theirs. They stuck with Eli. Instead of embarassing him by trying to get other QBs in the offseason one after another. The difference in their FO and ours is they have balls. The fans might have been angry. But if they had caved in they would have never went to the Superbowl. People want to carve JC up and tear him down as much as they can. What other QB in this league has gone through what JC has as far as instabilty? He might not be perfect but he is not horrible. We can break down game tape or whatever. But maybe we just need to believe in him instead of being overly critical. Maybe that will help him get over the hump. But some people are too spoiled and unrealitisc. He is still growing as a QB. What if NY had given up on Eli and you know he was getting it from the fans as much as JC was. But the FO believed in him. Nobody believes in JC but his teammates and coaches. The fans that used to support him are falling off too. But in the end. I root for the underdog. He has been nothing but a model player and a good example to children and other people. He could have easily been a little whiny diva of a player. He may not be the best. But he is the best we got. IF he got more support maybe he would do better because he would be under less pressure and when you believe in people they can excel far beyond your expectations. Okay I am off my soap box now..lol

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;603439]They say its more of less him learning the plays. Not talent. He was more of a deep threat at Nevada. Saying that why can't we use him in certain situations liek endzone or being a deep threat?

Also some one is saying that we are expecting them to be 1,000 yard receivers. I dont think that is the case. We just want them to make "some" plays. Right now they are making none. Kelly will improve [B]when he learns to use[/B] his size to shield/post up defenders and make himself a more viable and safe target.[/quote]

To learn implies someone is teaching him. It may be hopeless.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Isn't funny that through all of our off season moves to get fresh new help for Santana Moss and Chris Cooley, our leading receivers are still Santana Moss and Chris Cooley.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=skinsguy;603482]Isn't funny that through all of our off season moves to get fresh new help for Santana Moss and Chris Cooley, our leading receivers are still Santana Moss and Chris Cooley.[/quote]

Painfully funny

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;603480]To learn implies someone is teaching him. It may be hopeless.[/quote]


I think he is learning. I am not going to use stabilty in one offense as an excuse. But I will say this. If JC was to get more comfortable in an offense he would be able to learn the different nuances and not have to think as much. Do some people question his intelligence and whether he can read defenses? Yes they do. But how do they know? Just because he may over look a receiver? I for one think that Zorn is giving him a little bit of freedom at a time. Once you get comfortable in a offense you don't have to think about the plays as much. You can sit back and read the defense and concentrate on that and call an audible if neccessary. I think Zorn is teaching him. But letting him get comfortable in the offense also. In the no huddle offense he excels. Whether you think it is in garbage time or not. Zorn give him a set of up to ten plays to call for that situation and JC does the rest on his own. So he obvouisly understand the plays. He is just still growing. There are other issues liek offense line and young receivers and still working out the kinks in the play calling. No QB will make it here if we dont have a little patience. God forbid we draft a rookie and have a losing record and they do horrible the first year. Some peoples heads might explode. lol

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=skinsguy;603482]Isn't funny that through all of our off season moves to get fresh new help for Santana Moss and Chris Cooley, our leading receivers are still Santana Moss and Chris Cooley.[/quote]

I made that point earlier. So we are back to the point where we were before we drafted Kelly and Malcom. Some people are not getting that. Like it was said at the beginning of the season. Our success is hinged on whether one of the receivers steps up. We also thought our defense would be much better than what it is. I think we will surprise a few people by the end of the year. We have a few more games and a bye week. I think we will work some of these kinks out. We are 2-2 not 0-4. If we were then I would definitely panic.

To add to that our running game is suffering. CP may or may not have lost a step. But I remember him racing against Laron Landry in OTAs and them coming up as a tie. Not so much he has lost a step. But he is nicked up and we ran him into the ground. More about injury that being older (Rock & Betts are older than CP). Not to mention our patchwork O-line. So we might even be worse off than we were last year or the year before. [I]Are people taking these factors into consideration[/I]? I just think we will right the ship. We just need to have a little faith and patience. Just a little.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Right, I want to see Marko in for a change.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I was just thinking about something. Remember when we had Brunell and he was constantly throwing the ball away? I woudl give JC a little credit in the aspect because even though he might not throw the ball away. He throws it to a receiver. They might not make the first down by getting that extrea but atleast its not a lost play and is a positive yardage play. Only thing I will say about that though is JC needs to have better ball security. But that can be worked on.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;602889]:doh:[/quote]
Expert reply.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Hell Moss can go up and catch some balls.. you can see him really battle for it in close coverage

we're not throwing it into close coverage in the end zone unless it's a really stupid throw though it seems

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=hooskins;602920]I am more than honored to be a member of the Warpath Grammar Law Enforcement.

If we don't strive for perfection, why even post?[/quote]
then why even*

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I heard on the radio that Moss was the only WR to catch a ball against the Bucs. Could that be right? How is that even possible? Not even ARE? Since Kelly can't get separation, or run to a spot or in the seam against zone defenses or catch a screen pass or run a reverse or catch jump balls, can he at least run as fast as he can for 10-15 yards, stop and turn around? Everyone on this board can at least do that, right? It's a simple timing route. Not 1 friggin pass to another WR? Just putrid.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Bring on Marko Mitchell! Bring back Champ Bailey!!! I cannot believe Joe Gibbs traded him AND a 2nd round draft choice for CP! Good corners are hard to find, and Hall of Fame corners are keepers! Also, we could've drafted a solid offensive lineman with that 2nd rounder.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=44Deezel;603574]I heard on the radio that Moss was the only WR to catch a ball against the Bucs. Could that be right? How is that even possible? Not even ARE? Since Kelly can't get separation, or run to a spot or in the seam against zone defenses or catch a screen pass or run a reverse or catch jump balls, can he at least run as fast as he can for 10-15 yards, stop and turn around? Everyone on this board can at least do that, right? It's a simple timing route. Not 1 friggin pass to another WR? Just putrid.[/quote]ARE and Devin Thomas hardly played at all (a [I]combined[/I] 30 snaps, and some of those were runs). So that only leaves Kelly and Moss.

Kelly was targeted twice, and both passes were picked by Talib.

Campbell only completed 12 passes, and 10 were to TEs or backs. Which isn't completely unheard of, especially since the focal point of the Bucs defense was our receivers. Talib on Kelly creates mismatches elsewhere. Unfortunately, we were not able to take advantage of them ever. Ronde Barber looked like he was 28 out there.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Redskin Warrior;603352]The packers wr corp is a lot better than our and their o-line is too[/quote]
8 sacks.. 8

4.5 by one player

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;603569]Expert reply.[/quote]

Some things aren't worth wasting words.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;603570]Hell Moss can go up and catch some balls.. you can see him really battle for it in close coverage

we're not throwing it into close coverage in the end zone unless it's a really stupid throw though it seems[/quote]

Are you having a bad day? LOL

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;603573]then why even*[/quote]

talk about oxymorons!!

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;603585][B]talk about a oxymorons[/B]!![/quote]

Grammar police :postcop:. Don't even think about it.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;603584]Are you having a bad day? LOL[/quote]
No, why?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I think the issue is that these guys are still on the team. There are 10 WRs drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round of the 2008 draft who contribute to their teams or atleast show flashes of ability. We see nothing in return from Kelly and Thomas.
I'm concerned that Cerrato won't cut a guy he drafted because it would confirm that he made a mistake drafting that player.
Also, Thomas needs to get his butt on special teams. He is too gifted of an athlete to not be a Gunner or returner and it's not like we want to save him for WR.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=53Fan;603602]Grammar police :postcop:. Don't even think about it.[/quote]

:rofl: That's what I get for being a smart ass to a smart ass that is being a smart ass to another smart ass..lol. See kids being a smart ass doesn't pay off..lol

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;603578]ARE and Devin Thomas hardly played at all (a [I]combined[/I] 30 snaps, and some of those were runs). So that only leaves Kelly and Moss.

Kelly was targeted twice, and both passes were picked by Talib.

Campbell only completed 12 passes, and 10 were to TEs or backs. [B]Which isn't completely unheard of[/B], especially since the focal point of the Bucs defense was our receivers. Talib on Kelly creates mismatches elsewhere. Unfortunately, we were not able to take advantage of them ever. Ronde Barber looked like he was 28 out there.[/quote]

Maybe in Pop Warner;) And it happened because the 30th ranked Defense imposed their will on the Skins O? Oh brother:doh:

We may have to resort to throwing to the water boys when we play a legit Defense. They'll take everyone away.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=44Deezel;603642]Maybe in Pop Warner;) And it happened because the 30th ranked Defense imposed their will on the Skins O? Oh brother:doh:

We may have to resort to throwing to the water boys when we play a legit Defense. They'll take everyone away.[/quote]Well, I mean, it's very disappointing that even the worst defenses can take our No. 3, 4, and 5 options away completely, but I mean, if you're playing two receivers most of the time (and we were), how many defenses aren't going to be able to take one away?

The only matchups they really won were Aqib Talib against Malcolm Kelly, and Ronde Barber against Santana Moss. Moss killed Talib when they got that matchup. And if Campbell had simply been more accurate, we probably could have exploited them a lot more.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=skins89moss;603212]I watched the game and none of our WR were getting seperation. ARE did he even get a catch? They all had trouble getting open against the Bucs Tampa 2 defense.[/quote]

For the last 2 yrs I have touted that Hixon was the problem. Some people on here wish to point their fingers at the O-line, some wish to point their fingers at JC, now it's all Zorn to some and some are saying the two young guys must suck.

Last yr I think I took the time to list all the WR's that have come and gone while Hixon was here and although some were older like Patton, there were enough young ones that have come and gone and apparently he could not find a diamond in any of them:
Devin Aromashodu
Horace Gant
Anthony Mix
Billy McMullen
Maurice Mann
Burl Toler
Jason Willis
Terry Mitchell
Jerome Mathis
Carl Berman
Trent Shelton
Onrea Jones
Keith Eloi
D.J. Hacket
Marques Hagens
Roydell Williams
Jaison Williams
James Thrash
Marko Mitchell
John Halman
Adrian Madise
Deyon Williams
Steven Harris
Danny Melendez
Kyle Brown
Taylor Sele
Devin Thomas
Malcolm Kelly
David Patton
Mike Espy
Brandon Lloyd
Cedric Bonner
Ryan Hoag
Jimmy Farris
Jason McAddley
Keenan McCardell
Shaun Bodiford
Reche Caldwell
Richard Smith
Corey Bradford
Jerel Myers
Todd Pinkston

I got all from Redskins.com, I didn't want to go back to far cause they didn't have a yr associated with the players they only had a day and month signed on the Transaction list. but something is seriously wrong when you can't take any of these and make them a star.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Have any of those guys gone on to be stars elsewhere?

I'm not sure what tossing up a list of camp bodies really shows.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603787]Have any of those guys gone on to be stars elsewhere?

I'm not sure what tossing up a list of camp bodies really shows.[/quote]

I know this is an endless and fruitless debate and yet...

A WR coming into the league seems like a very risky proposition, even the stars take time to shine. But if you get bad, or even lackluster instruction, when you first come in, you can develop bad habits, or the bad habits you brought with you become entrenched. The question of who shined elsewhere ignores or minimizes the fact that the first opportunity they had to shine is where their lights were turned off. Who knows if any could have shined elsewhere, there record was established here, and no other coaches were able to correct the disasters we had helped churn out.

Do you think that every LB that went to UPenn when it was known as a LB factory would have been great if they hadn't gotten coached up under Paterno? or would have been great if they went to a AA college? Coaching up the greats is a part of a winning tradition. It's what Sherm Lewis has in his repertoire, and what Hixon doesn't. Is it a surprise that a college WR coach would struggle coaching WR's at the NFL level? no more than it is that a rookie WR is amazed at the NFL CB talent level.

The point of the long list is that anyone could do what Hixon has done, which is take mid grade talent and churn out mid-grade results. What we all in the Don't Give Passes To Hixon club want is a WR coach who can take mid-grade talent and churn out positive results at least once in a 5 year span.

the equation:
College level WR Coach + College WR's <> Elite NFL Receiving corp.

(Do we have a spinning wheel icon, because I know the argument falls on deaf ears)

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Ok back to the list of camp bodies... how many of them played elsewhere before getting ruined here by Hixon?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603787]Have any of those guys gone on to be stars elsewhere?

I'm not sure what tossing up a list of camp bodies really shows.[/quote]

I'm not trying to say any of them would be as good as CJ, or R.Moss, or T.O. but certainly the Skins should have been able to turn one of them into a half decent WR maybe catching a few balls for first down if nothing else. Instead we have the marry-go-round effect of WR's. I have to think part of the problem is obviously the talent scouts getting crappy talent but more to the point is Hixon could not develope anyone. Could not get any type of production out of them. Our only productive WR's are Moss who was developed with the Jets prior to coming here, ARE who was developed with the Steelers....and thats it. Thomas and Kelly were 2nd round WR's? why aren't they productive?

I have to imagine its whatever Hixon is teaching and or not teaching. How he has them running their routes and how he's teaching them to get seperation. Nothing is working. I like Moss but even (in my eyes) his production under Hixon is getting worse each year. This yr is the only yr that ARE has actually looked like the WR we brought in to help the team.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603797]Ok back to the list of camp bodies... how many of them played elsewhere before getting ruined here by Hixon?[/quote]

I'm not even going to say ruined. Most were probably camp bodies, but the Skins have had a glaring WR problem and all we can bring in is camp bodies? I have to imagine Hixon had some say in to who the team was going to bring in. One would think they would have gone to him and said "hey take a look at this kid and see if you think you can develope him" or "we are looking at this kid what do you think"? I find it hard to believe that Cerrato or whoever is saying "Oh, we need to get another WR, lets just pick this guy up and see what Hixon can do with him." "We need more camp bodies so our regular players won't get hurt in preseason", "lets just keep our revolving door of WR's going and pick up this idget and see what he's got".

Now we have two supposedly talented WR's and possibly a third and we still can't get anything out of them so I guess we must have taken them way too high in the draft cause they are camp fodder also.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;603800]I'm not trying to say any of them would be as good as CJ, or R.Moss, or T.O. but certainly the Skins should have been able to turn one of them into a half decent WR maybe catching a few balls for first down if nothing else. Instead we have the marry-go-round effect of WR's. I have to think part of the problem is obviously the talent scouts getting crappy talent but more to the point is Hixon could not develope anyone. Could not get any type of production out of them. Our only productive WR's are Moss who was developed with the Jets prior to coming here, ARE who was developed with the Steelers....and thats it. Thomas and Kelly were 2nd round WR's? why aren't they productive?

I have to imagine its whatever Hixon is teaching and or not teaching. How he has them running their routes and how he's teaching them to get seperation. Nothing is working. I like Moss but even (in my eyes) his production under Hixon is getting worse each year. This yr is the only yr that ARE has actually looked like the WR we brought in to help the team.[/quote]

So why haven't any these guys gone elsewhere and become stars, or even serviceable players?

As for ARE he's had back to back 50+ catch seasons here, with a career high of 53 last year. This year he's on pace for 52.

I can't say if Moss has really improved under Hixon, but I can't say his play has fallen off either. The "down" years he's had here were probably more due to injuries and QB issues more than anything.