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Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=tryfuhl;607444]who thought that we'd still be seeing ricky williams play?[/quote]
Tell me about it. And he still has tremendous speed. Maybe more Running Backs should start smoking weed to retain their youthful exuberance;) |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=Ruhskins;607457]And that one guy does three jobs!!! LOL.[/quote]I still think Zorn is a pretty good coach, personally, but he's completely in over his head wearing as many hats as he does.
You could build a successful coaching staff around Zorn by tearing down the offensive coaching staff and piecing it together again around what Zorn does well (i.e. call protections, make halftime adjustments), but hell, it's way easier to just blow the whole thing up and throw a truckload of money at a pretty face who can make losing fun again! |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607461]I still think Zorn is a pretty good coach, personally, but he's completely in over his head wearing as many hats as he does.
You could build a successful coaching staff around Zorn by tearing down the offensive coaching staff and piecing it together again around what Zorn does well (i.e. call protections, make halftime adjustments), but hell, it's way easier to just blow the whole thing up and [B]throw a truckload of money at a pretty face[/B] who can make losing fun again![/quote] Are you referring to a certain ol' ball coach who is now in charge of the South Carolina football team? LOL. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=jamf;606956]It's difficult for me to watch other teams play.
Not only are their offenses more advanced, they actually blitz successfully! I've been making excuses for JC, Kelly, Thomas and pretty much damn near everyone else on the team but I just can't do it anymore. It was disgusting to see Maclin and Collie make plays, We get jack shit from our guys... I'm embarrassed to say that Daniel Snyder needs an intervention and that intervention is losing.[/quote]I've been spouting off about the cure for years now: INVEST HEAVILY IN THE O-LINE IN THE DRAFT AND THE OFFENSIVE PROBLEMS WILL DISAPPEAR. It doesn't matter how good the skill positions are when the QB can barely get to his 2nd progression without getting hit. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
Would you believe the Redskins have 10 former first round picks on their roster?
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Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=Ruhskins;607462]Are you referring to a certain ol' ball coach who is now in charge of the South Carolina football team? LOL.[/quote]Well, Jon Gruden was once voted one of the 50 sexist men in America.
But I was actually referring to Shanahan. Our coaching doesn't suck because Zorn can't coach, it sucks because it's Jim Zorn and a bunch of people who have no idea what Jim Zorn is doing. Jim Zorn has no particular concept of understanding successful receiver route combinations, and there's no one on staff who complements that weakness. So our routes are just very vanilla. I think Zorn did everything that was advertised of him (trained Campbell), but with the benefit of hindsight, this plan was destined for failure from the beginning. The warning signs were there, I just wasn't close enough to the team to see them. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=Bozzy;606737]except for the rams[/quote]
The Rams are the worst team in football. I will be shocked if they win one game. Just totally shocked. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=SmootSmack;607466]Would you believe the Redskins have 10 former first round picks on their roster?[/quote]
Actually, yes. Which makes it even worse. We have like three in the secondary, I believe. Then there's Campbell and Samuels. Who else, Portis and Orakapo? |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=SmootSmack;607466]Would you believe the Redskins have 10 former first round picks on their roster?[/quote]Let's see if I can name them off the top of my head:
Samuels Moss Mike Williams Orakpo Rogers Landry Haynesworth Campbell Hall Who's the 10th??? |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=12thMan;607470]Actually, yes. Which makes it even worse. We have like three in the secondary, I believe. Then there's Campbell and Samuels.
Who else, Portis and Orakapo?[/quote]Portis was a second rounder. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=SouperMeister;607472]Let's see if I can name them off the top of my head:
Samuels Moss Mike Williams Orakpo Rogers Landry Haynesworth Campbell Hall Who's the 10th???[/quote]Carter |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
That was a great game to watch. Makes you realize even more how bad we look. Funny what you said about tearing down the offensive coaching staff Tripp, I was talking about the same thing today. I really think Zorn could be a good HC given some time, but I really don't see much in his assistants. Looks mostly like college guys who haven't done much in the NFL, or NFL coaches who have been promoted to positions they've never held. Our execution looks like shit and how much are these guys responsible for it? Of course the o-line, we know whose fault that is.
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Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=53Fan;607475]That was a great game to watch. Makes you realize how even more how bad we look. Funny what you said about tearing down the offensive coaching staff Tripp, I was talking about the same thing today. I really think Zorn could be a good HC given some time, but I really don't see much in his assistants. Looks mostly like college guys who haven't done much in the NFL, or NFL coaches who have been promoted to positions they've never held.[/quote]
Now, after you said that, I could see it as well.. I have always believed that Zorn has the potentials to be good head coach; but right now, I'm not so sure anymore.. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=53Fan;607475]That was a great game to watch. Makes you realize even more how bad we look. Funny what you said about tearing down the offensive coaching staff Tripp, I was talking about the same thing today. I really think Zorn could be a good HC given some time, but I really don't see much in his assistants. Looks mostly like college guys who haven't done much in the NFL, or NFL coaches who have been promoted to positions they've never held.[/quote]
Get me my C4, it's time to blow up this team. LOL. One can only dream, no? |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=Ruhskins;607477]Get me my C4, it's time to blow up this team. LOL. One can only dream, no?[/quote]I do not believe in rebuilding. I believe in building. Teams should always be building, whether they are winning 3 games or 13.
There is never, ever a good reason to trade a 2nd round draft pick for a 34 year old superstar. Not ever. Trading draft picks is fine, but with all the teams desperate to unload 4th and 5th year players near the end of their contracts for picks, you have to win every trade ever time. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607474]Carter[/quote]
Correct. But actually I totally forgot about Mike Williams, so we have 11 former first rounders. 1997 Jaguars select with the 21st overall pick...Renaldo Wynn Would have had 12 if we didn't cut Robert Thomas |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=53Fan;607475]That was a great game to watch. Makes you realize even more how bad we look. Funny what you said about tearing down the offensive coaching staff Tripp, I was talking about the same thing today. I really think Zorn could be a good HC given some time, but I really don't see much in his assistants. Looks mostly like college guys who haven't done much in the NFL, or NFL coaches who have been promoted to positions they've never held. Our execution looks like shit and how much are these guys responsible for it? Of course the o-line, we know whose fault that is.[/quote]
I don't think Zorn will ever be a good head coach. Jim Zorn is 54 years old, if I'm correct. He's no spring chicken even though most people think he is. I would think if he had it, it would have surfaced at some point before he arrived in D.C. Some guys are just wired to be lifetime coordinators and position coaches, and Jim Zorn is one of those guys. Actually, I don't think Zorn would be a very good offensive coordinator either. You would see the same exact vanilla schemes and predictable play calling. I really think it was a colossal error to make him head coach so suddenly. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=12thMan;607487]I don't think Zorn will ever be a good head coach. Jim Zorn is 54 years old, if I'm correct; he's no spring chicken even though most people think he is. I would think if he had it, it would have surfaced at some point before he arrived in D.C.
Some guys are just wired to be lifetime coordinators and position coaches, and Jim Zorn is one of those guys. Actually, I don't think Zorn would be a very good offensive coordinator either. You would see the same exact vanilla schemes and predictable play calling. I really think it was a colossal error to make him head coach so suddenly.[/quote]Well, I think his age has contributed to him being unable to handle three hats. If he was 42 or 43, maybe he could handle it. It would take a lot more work than he's currently putting in, but Gruden and Shanahan both pulled it off at similar ages. It's been done before. I think one of the biggest flaws was that Zorn, in his early 50's, was treated like a young up-and-coming coaching superstar, and well, I think his age had a lot to do with his inability to meet all challenges. To me, that doesn't make him not a good coach. I think he his a good coach. It makes him a horrible fit for the do it all superstar the Redskins were looking for. Even Gibbs 2.0 had fleeting success while wearing two hats, and Gibbs is one of the biggest proponents of surrounding yourself with the best people. Zorn's biggest flaw is that he didn't buy into Gibbs' most important principle. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
One of the simplest things that Zorn could do next week is to put the headset that's directed attached to Jason Campbell's ear on Chris Meidt. Keep the playcalling duties, but focus on being ahead of the game in playcalling, and not about micromanaging Jason Campbell's footwork.
Simple, but it could pay immediate offensive dividends. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607489]One of the simplest things that Zorn could do next week is to put the headset that's directed attached to Jason Campbell's ear on Chris Meidt. Keep the playcalling duties, but focus on being ahead of the game in playcalling, and not about micromanaging Jason Campbell's footwork.
Simple, but it could pay immediate offensive dividends.[/quote] I agree. When you see him on the sideline he's continously talking to JC. Telling him to do this and that, "tell the guys this is going to be a TD, take control..you're the leader etc." It's too much when he should be listening to what they're seeing upstairs and planning his next play to take advantage of what the D is doing. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607488]
To me, that doesn't make him not a good coach. I think he his a good coach. It makes him a horrible fit for the do it all superstar the Redskins were looking for. Even Gibbs 2.0 had fleeting success while wearing two hats, and Gibbs is one of the biggest proponents of surrounding yourself with the best people. Zorn's biggest flaw is that he didn't buy into Gibbs' most important principle.[/quote]Seemed like to me Zorn put himself in that position a bit. I mean sure they brought him to handle Campbell too.. but playcalling, etc he could've easily let Sherman Smith handle. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607488]Well, I think his age has contributed to him being unable to handle three hats. If he was 42 or 43, maybe he could handle it. It would take a lot more work than he's currently putting in, but Gruden and Shanahan both pulled it off at similar ages. It's been done before.
I think one of the biggest flaws was that Zorn, in his early 50's, was treated like a young up-and-coming coaching superstar, and well, I think his age had a lot to do with his inability to meet all challenges. To me, that doesn't make him not a good coach. I think he his a good coach. It makes him a horrible fit for the do it all superstar the Redskins were looking for. Even Gibbs 2.0 had fleeting success while wearing two hats, and Gibbs is one of the biggest proponents of surrounding yourself with the best people. Zorn's biggest flaw is that he didn't buy into Gibbs' most important principle.[/quote] I'm not sure what Zorn's biggest flaws are to be honest, but his strengths, whatever they are, don't exactly jump out at me either. I measure good coaching by one thing: winning. That's it. Good coaches win games. And he's yet to do that and it looks increasingly like he won't, at least not as the head coach of the Skins. But the only reason I pointed out Zorn's age is because of the perception that Zorn was this guy in his 40s and that, perhaps, the fans were hoping that he would be the next Jon Gruden, Josh McDaniels, or Eric Mangini. Even though he didn't have the long coaching resume or Super Bowl ring, we were hoping that Jim Zorn would compensate for what he lacked on paper in other ways. My statement about his age wasn't an indictment on his skill or football acumen one way or another. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
In essence though, we agree Gtripp.
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Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607489]One of the simplest things that Zorn could do next week is to put the headset that's directed attached to Jason Campbell's ear on Chris Meidt. Keep the playcalling duties, but focus on being ahead of the game in playcalling, and not about micromanaging Jason Campbell's footwork.
Simple, but it could pay immediate offensive dividends.[/quote] Yeah I'm wondering if that's why Campbell isn't able to make the reads he needs to, throws it only to wide open guys downfield mostly, etc |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=tryfuhl;607494]Seemed like to me Zorn put himself in that position a bit. I mean sure they brought him to handle Campbell too.. but playcalling, etc he could've easily let Sherman Smith handle.[/quote]Not trying to absolve Zorn from putting himself in a situation he couldn't handle, but I think he was more than willing to take whatever he could get.
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Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=12thMan;607495]I'm not sure what Zorn's biggest flaws are to be honest, but his strengths, whatever they are, don't exactly jump out at me either. I measure good coaching by one thing: winning. That's it. Good coaches win games. And he's yet to do that and it looks increasingly like he won't, at least not as the head coach of the Skins.
But the only reason I pointed out Zorn's age is because of the perception that Zorn was this guy in his 40s and that, perhaps, the fans were hoping that he would be the next Jon Gruden, Josh McDaniels, or Eric Mangini. Even though he didn't have the long coaching resume or Super Bowl ring, we were hoping that Jim Zorn would compensate for what he lacked on paper in other ways. My statement about his age wasn't an indictment on his skill or football acumen one way or another.[/quote]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta. And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill. To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=tryfuhl;607498]Yeah I'm wondering if that's why Campbell isn't able to make the reads he needs to, throws it only to wide open guys downfield mostly, etc[/quote]
Look, Campbell isn't able to make the reads because he's not making the reads. It's as simple as that. Sure his handlers may be impacting his production some and, yes, this is his second year in the WCO. But tonight I watched, essentially, two rookie quarterbacks make a few bone headed plays, but they also made a lot of throws in some tight spaces and kept their teams in the game down the wire. That's not all coaching, that's guys playing football. In Sanchez' case, with a guy who just arrived 72 hours ago! Jason Campbell is a football player and, at some point, his football instincts have to kick in regardless of who's coaching him and what plays are being called. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607502]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.
And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill. To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one.[/quote] You may have just helped me with the title of my next thread. Thanks. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=12thMan;607503]Look, Campbell isn't able to make the reads because he's not making the reads. It's as simple as that. Sure his handlers may be impacting his production some and, yes, this is his second year in the WCO. But tonight I watched, essentially, two rookie quarterbacks make a few bone headed plays, but they also made a lot of throws in some tight spaces and kept their teams in the game down the wire. That's not all coaching, that's guys playing football. In Sanchez' case, with a guy who just arrived 72 hours ago!
Jason Campbell is a football player and, at some point, his football instincts have to kick in regardless of who's coaching him and what plays are being called.[/quote]And while Campbell's numbers tell us nothing about the oppertunities Campbell's leaving on the table, they tell us he's hitting the open man about one standard deviation more than the average quarterback. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607502]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.
And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill. To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. [B]But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one[/B].[/quote] Agreed GTripp. One of the things I find interesting when people talk about Zorn is this. The o-line sucks..I think everyone agrees. Dropped balls, penalties, fumbles, missed blocks, missed assignments etc. have killed us. Zorn calls a play and it doesn't work..he's a dumbass. With the way this team is playing...what makes anyone think the call they would have made, would be executed the way it's suppose to? I agree he's called some questionable plays, but he's also called some good ones that the players just flatout F'd up. Batiste has to play because the FO doesn't, apparently, think the o-line is important and he has to change his calls because JC is about to get killed if he calls anything that takes time to develop. He's obviously inexperienced but he catches a lot of flack that would better be directly somewhere else. And yes..he is wearing too many hats....I believe he got them from the FO. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=53Fan;607508]One of the things I find interesting when people talk about Zorn is this. The o-line sucks..I think everyone agrees. Dropped balls, penalties, fumbles, missed blocks, missed assignments etc. have killed us. Zorn calls a play and it doesn't work..he's a dumbass. With the way this team is playing...what makes anyone think the call they would have made would be executed the way it's suppose to? I agree he's called some questionable plays, but he's also called some good ones that the players just flatout F'd up. Batiste has to play because the FO doesn't, apparently, think the o-line is important and he has to change his calls because JC is about to get killed if he calls anything that takes time to develop. He's obviously inexperienced but he catches a lot of flack that would better be directly somewhere else. And yes..he is wearing too many hats....I believe he got them from the FO.[/quote]
But see those two things, play calling and execution, are both related. When a team doesn't execute properly, that's symptomatic of something else. Perhaps lack of confidence of the strategy or the call. It all goes back to coaching in some form. Bottom line, this team isn't prepared week in and week out. And that's on Zorn. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607500]Not trying to absolve Zorn from putting himself in a situation he couldn't handle, but I think he was more than willing to take whatever he could get.[/quote]
Oh definitely, opportunity of a lifetime. They could've told him he had to paint the lines on the field and he would've obliged. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=12thMan;607503]Look, Campbell isn't able to make the reads because he's not making the reads. It's as simple as that. Sure his handlers may be impacting his production some and, yes, this is his second year in the WCO. But tonight I watched, essentially, two rookie quarterbacks make a few bone headed plays, but they also made a lot of throws in some tight spaces and kept their teams in the game down the wire. That's not all coaching, that's guys playing football. In Sanchez' case, with a guy who just arrived 72 hours ago!
Jason Campbell is a football player and, at some point, his football instincts have to kick in regardless of who's coaching him and what plays are being called.[/quote] I've made the same argument but you can make a guy overthink too. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=12thMan;607509]But see those two things, play calling and execution, are both related. When a team doesn't execute properly, that's symptomatic of something else. Perhaps lack of confidence of the strategy or the call. It all goes back to coaching in some form.
Bottom line, this team isn't prepared week in and week out. And that's on Zorn.[/quote] Yes it will fall on Zorn. But you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. He has what he has to work with and frankly, it's not much. This organization still hasn't learned how important an O-line is. I'm not taking blame away from Zorn completely. He picked out most of the O assistants, but he probably shouldn't have with no more experience than he has. Zorn can't do it himself and I don't think his assistants are all that great to be honest. They are just as responsible for preparing that part of the team that they coach as he is. What else are they here for? |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=53Fan;607515]Yes it will fall on Zorn. But you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. [/quote]
Blache? |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=tryfuhl;607518]Blache?[/quote]
:laughing- The Bible I think. All I'm saying is that any good leader, whether it's business or football, surrounds himself with good people. I'm not sure Zorn has. You surround yourself w/friends, it doesn't always workout for the best. Snyder/Vinny. Maybe Zorn needs to just stop trying to run the whole show and learn to delegate and hold his assistants accountable and they'd all be better off. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=53Fan;607519]:laughing- The Bible I think. All I'm saying is that any good leader, whether it's business or football, surrounds himself with good people. I'm not sure Zorn has. You surround yourself w/friends, it doesn't always workout for the best. Snyder/Vinny.[B] Maybe Zorn needs to just stop trying to run the whole show and learn to delegate and hold his assistants accountable and they'd all be better off.[/B][/quote]
Interestingly, when Zorn first came, one of his statements was that Holmgren had taught him the art of delegating. I am confident if you asked Zorn today, "what job duties could you give to another coach to help you be more effective?" His answer would be none. And that is why he is over his head. He thinks he has to have every part in place before he makes a decision. So while his playcall may be spot on, his situational reactions are much much slower. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GMScud;607375]We'll see. Pretty early to say they won't make the playoffs, no? They just took the lead on a nice throw by Henne, and if they hang on they'll be a game out of first in the AFC East with 3/4 of the season yet to play. Their o-line is young, their QB is young, the WRs are young, and they have a pretty stout D by the looks of it. Anyone talking about the Dolphins as a league joke?
I'd take Miami over the Skins in a heartbeat right now.[/quote] If they had fallen to 1-4 they would have been hanging from a very thin thread. I like their overall situation too, I was just talking strictly W/L. |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GTripp0012;607502]Yeah, but bad coaches can win a lot of games too. There's no rule that says if your coach sucks, you have to lose. Or that if your coach understands the game inside and out, you have to win. Case in point: Manny Acta.
And I think that the big point that we're both in agreement on is that Zorn simply isn't who the Redskins thought he was. Zorn is just Jim Zorn. He's exactly the same guy Snyder was so impressed with. And he's just not cut out for the job that the Redskins were trying to fill. To Snyder's credit, I don't think he he's trying to duck responsibility for this one. But finding Jim Zorn appears to have been one thing, putting Zorn in a situation where he could succeed is an entirely different one.[/quote] I'm sure Snyder was impressed w/ Zorn but Zorn was not our first or second choice. I've got to believe he was a desperation hire. Cowher, Spags, Fassel all didn't work out (in Fassel's case, i think he was hired and Snyder changed his mind after a fan uproar). What's troubling to me is that Snyder was "shocked" when JG's retired. Shocked? How can you run your organization w/out a "short" list of potential candidates especially when your coach, JG, was old and going on the 5th year of a 5 yr deal. In hind sight, we did interview Josh McDaniel's, Ryan, Schwartz, and Spags...and we ended up w/ Jim Zorn? How did that happen? |
Re: It's a joy watching other teams play
[quote=GMScud;607366]Willingness to spend and desire to win doesn't mean a thing unfortunately. Snyder still hasn't learned that big names/big dollars do not = wins. As evidenced by how hard he's pushing for Shanahan.
If he's got such a hard on to win and spend money, then back the Brinks truck up in the driveway of a good GM.[/quote] You're absoutely right. We have needed that for years. But it appears Snyder doesn't want to let go. |
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