Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;665891]Campbell to Buffalo talk is reportedly really heating up. A lot is contigent upon whether Campbell would agree to a long term deal with the Bills. Latest rumor I've heard is Campbell for a 3rd and a 5th. (Others insist Whitner is part of any deal though)[/quote]

There are a lot of deals/discussions in Indy during the combine. Teams will be wheeling and dealing during the next week or so.

I find it hard to believe we'd trade Campbell without getting a QB in return. That would leave us with Todd Collins (who I doubt will be a Skin in the fall) and Colt Brennan. No bueno. If we do trade JC for just draft picks, we'd obviously be looking to draft Clausen or Bradford, but what if they both go in the top 3? Granted, that's unlikely, but still. And then where would we be?

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665941]For Campbell? Why not? It's not like he was putting up JaMarcus Russell or Derek Anderson numbers last season.[/quote]

Because he hasn't really done much. He will probably never be more then a pretty good player. Russell is worthless but why would JC be worth more then Derek Anderson? Anderson had a season a couple years ago that was better then anything JC has done. I don't want to completely trash JC but i just think it's time to move on and i would be thrilled to get a #3 pick in the process.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=celts32;665963]Because he hasn't really done much. He will probably never be more then a pretty good player. Russell is worthless but why would JC be worth more then Derek Anderson? Anderson had a season a couple years ago that was better then anything JC has done. I don't want to completely trash JC but i just think it's time to move on and i would be thrilled to get a #3 pick in the process.[/quote]

Anderson was good a couple of seasons ago, but stats-wise JC played better than him and Russell last season. And while yes, stats are not everything (a blasphemy for GTripp), I'm sure a number of QB-starved teams would focus on that (just has some teams fall in love with combine results).

That being said, while I would definitely welcome a good draft pick for Campbell, I don't think we necessarily need to part ways with him. Other people are in charge now (not Vinny or Snyder) and even if we draft Bradford or Clausen, we need a QB to start right away so we don't throw a rook QB into the fire.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=DIE-NASTY;665917]why draft a rookie qb this year? We'll have to pay him Stafford type money and he won't have a very good line in front of him. We should address the o-line this year with our first overall pick and probably our second and then draft a qb next year when if and when the rookie cap is instituted. Our line will be more seasoned (sanchez played pretty well all things considered behind a good o-line, stafford got the crap kicked out of him because their line is about as bad as ours) and we wont have to pay some PROSPECT Peyton Manning money. And who knows, if we upgrade our line and we keep JC, maybe he plays much better and we resign him which would negate the need to use a high pick in next year's draft on a QB.
Sorry, I feel like I'm beating a dead horse but it makes me feel better.[/quote]

I too believe and know OL is the main issue. Our's was not one of the best. But the same arguement for QB can be used for OL or any other position. Why draft at position X, no one stands out at that position or only 1 person does and will be taken prior to our draft spot, which means the others are a gamble as to how they will work out in the NFL.

Picking up the Franchise QB in mid to late rounds is a huge gamble. We are the prime example picking up QB's late or UFA's and try them out only to cut them in preseason. I'm not saying you can't get a good QB, I'm saying your chances of finding the Franchise Payton Manning types are slim. You better off taking on of the top few tier QB's coming out of the draft which have better skill sets to work with.

If this was a year in which only a few teams needed QB's and the possibilities of one of the top tier QB's would keep falling into the 2nd round then I'd say wait. But when you only have 2 or 3 top tier QB's then there is a drop off in talent/skill then I'd say take one this year while we are so high in the draft to be able to pick the one we want vs. settling for second best cause the one all the coach's wanted was taken.

In other words let say the team decides to wait till next year to pick up a Franchise QB. Under Shanahan the team actually does pretty well say 8-8 or 9-7. Our draft spot would most likely be moved down to the middle of the draft say 14-17 range. But we committed to holding out till next yr to pick up a QB so we look at the talent and really only 1 QB is worth picking up under the impression that he would be a Franchise QB and he's expected to go either 1st or 2nd in the 1st round. Are you willing to give up the farm to move up to get the QB or are you going to settle for mediocracy and hope for a diamond in the rough or simply say we'll pick him up a year later?

Any new HC will want to get "his" QB to teach or coach to run his system. Look at each HC we've had....

Marty went out and picked up Sage Rosenfels.
Spurrier picked up Ramsey and Hamden.
Gibbs picked up Campbell and Palmer.
Zorn was an idiot but he did pick up C.Brennan and Daniels.

Shanahan will pick up a QB whome he wants cause picking up any General to run your team simply doesn't always work. Plus Shanahan's offensive scheme needs a QB who is accurate, has excellent timing, and can go through their progressions quickly. Plus Shanahan is known for getting excellent results out of mid to late round OL talent.

So I go back to saying if we need a General to run the team then we might as well get him now with a 3-5 yr plan on getting to the play offs/SB. Let Shanahan build his OL through FA and drafting after the 1st round since he's known to pick up good talent by doing so in the past.
If we are upgrading the OL trying to buy more time and protection for the QB, why can't we up grade the QB spot and pick up someone who can read defenses, get through their progressions faster, who has a faster release, and is more accurate as well. This would help the OL out as well.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=DIE-NASTY;665902]a 3 and a 5? I think I'd rather keep the guy. He has shown flashes that he can play at a high level. Let's assemble a real NFL-caliber offensive line. Who knows if the guys we pick by trading JC to Buff will pan out.[/quote]

The guy we would be trading for is an excellent FS. Which we need. Then you'd have the team drafting a QB ... Bradford or Clausen, and most likely picking up someone who is a younger Vet then Collins and can run a WCO or Shanahan's system. Then as you know there's the Pineapple Jesus. :)

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Bigreds77;665921]DIE-NASTY great post the same people that bashed Vinny for taking skilled players instead of a O Line are now wanting to draft a QB that may never work out.[/quote]


No.... we want a QB that has potential to work out. We already have drafted a QB that has not worked out in Campbell and Brennan. ;)

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;665954]-Uncapped year I don't think it matters moneywise if we take a QB or LT or whatever in the first round

-Feel like I've said this a million times, but drafting a QB in the first round does not equal disregarding the offensive line. The Skins aren't planning on waiting until draft day, taking a QB at 4, and then going home

-Sure Bradford's shoulder is a concern, but all indications are that he's fine and if teams never drafted guys because they had injuries...there'd be no draft to begin with

-[B]There's more buzz though that we're not taking either Bradford or Clausen in the first round (who knows for sure though)[/B]

-I think Moss should have been traded last year (if not the year before). His value is slipping but we need to see what we can get out of him. We also need to move forward with DT and Kelly and whoever else as our starting receivers

-Unfortunately we made moves in the past (Duckett, Lloyd, Taylor) that have no hurt us as we try to move forward. We can either sit and moan about it or make do with we have. What we have is guys like Laron Landry playing for a last place team so it makes sense to see what a guy like Landry can bring back. That doesn't mean you just trade him, it means you explore the options

-There will most likely be a draft in 2011 so the conditional status of any pick that year shouldn't be a concern

-[B]Mentioned it in another thread (and many times before) but I'm keeping an eye on Jevan Snead. Reading between the lines of what people are telling me he sounds like a prime mid-round candidate[/B][/quote]

1) If we trade JC to Buffalo, I'd almost bet my monthly paycheck that we will pick Bradford or Clausen at #4, not an OT, and likely also sign a vet who can start until the young buck is ready for prime time.

2) I'm not doubting you but I don't understand such Snead love. I saw a lot of him and was unimpressed. In the most charitable scenario, it seems like he would not be ready to start any time soon, but the guy I saw did not look like even starter material. My two cents in my role of "NOT a quarterback guru."

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

I'm sick of hearing this....

[QUOTE]Plus Shanahan is known for getting excellent results out of mid to late round OL talent. [/QUOTE]

Even if it isn't with a first round tackle, I want the team to put a lot of focus and resources in building the offensive line and not "chance it" with just low round picks.

Didn't we use to say the same thing about Bugle? "Oh he can coach anyone up."

I want for the team to draft at least a 2nd round tackle, to do their homework on the limited talent in free agency, and have a plan to address the offensive line, and not just hope that a whole bunch of mid to low rounders just work out.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Defensewins;665927]Why are we such an impatient group/team that we have to try to add by subtraction? Why can't we keep the good players we have and take 3 years to build through the draft and FA over time? We don't have to trade Santana Moss, LaRon Landry, Chris Cooley etc. just because some are desperate for more draft picks.
If we have learned one thing from the Snyder era is trying to build a winner in one or two whirlwind off seasons does not work for us. We end up regressing.[/quote]

All I can say is when I mentioned "Rebuild" mode I was kindly told we are 2 or 3 players away from a SB. :)

Then the GM Allen came out on tv and said the same thing... almost. Apparently "Rebuild" is a taboo word.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665977]I'm sick of hearing this....



Even if it isn't with a first round tackle, I want the team to put a lot of focus and resources in building the offensive line and not "chance it" with just low round picks.

Didn't we use to say the same thing about Bugle? "Oh he can coach anyone up."

[B]I want for the team to draft at least a 2nd round tackle, to do their homework on the limited talent in free agency, and have a plan to address the offensive line, and not just hope that a whole bunch of mid to low rounders just work out.[/B][/quote]

Hear hear! :food-smil All well said.

When is the last time that we said, "the offensive line dominated the ______"? We should invest resources heavily and intelligently into the OL.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SBXVII;665975]No.... we want a QB that has potential to work out. We already have drafted a QB that has not worked out in Campbell and Brennan. ;)[/quote]

And part of the reason why that QB hasn't worked is because we just focused on skill position players and had a turd for an offensive line.

I know someone will come and try to rip me a new one because I bash the people that want a QB, but I just don't understand how these people can be so non-chalant (sp?) about the offensive line.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665968]Anderson was good a couple of seasons ago, but stats-wise JC played better than him and Russell last season. And while yes, stats are not everything (a blasphemy for GTripp), I'm sure a number of QB-starved teams would focus on that (just has some teams fall in love with combine results).

That being said, while I would definitely welcome a good draft pick for Campbell, I don't think we necessarily need to part ways with him. Other people are in charge now (not Vinny or Snyder) and even if we draft Bradford or Clausen, we need a QB to start right away so we don't throw a rook QB into the fire.[/quote]

Lets see... the Falcons did pretty well throwing a Rook into the fire as did Detroit, Baltimore, and the Jets. I too believe stats aren't everything. I believe there is more JC then his excellent stats people keep refering to. Yes he's "Safe" with the ball. Safe doesn't mean he is connecting with his receivers all the time, it simply means he's not fumbling, or throwing interceptions. JC got around the latter by throwing the ball out of bounds so no one could get it or throwing a dirt ball.

What it doesn't speak to is his failure to read defenses and adjust his protection, get through his progressions fast enough, failure to finess the ball in some situations (it's not all about drilling the ball with power), and accuracy (too many balls behind the receivers or over thrown).

But since he was a starter for a few yrs I'd think we would get a low 1st round out of him or 2nd round. I'd settle for a 2nd round but you have to go with what the market will give or keep him. If a 3rd and a 5th is all we can get then either cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet or take the trade.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SBXVII;665982]Lets see... the Falcons did pretty well throwing a Rook into the fire as did Detroit, Baltimore, and the Jets. I too believe stats aren't everything. I believe there is more JC then his excellent stats people keep refering to. Yes he's "Safe" with the ball. Safe doesn't mean he is connecting with his receivers all the time, it simply means he's not fumbling, or throwing interceptions. JC got around the latter by throwing the ball out of bounds so no one could get it or throwing a dirt ball.

What it doesn't speak to is his failure to read defenses and adjust his protection, get through his progressions fast enough, failure to finess the ball in some situations (it's not all about drilling the ball with power), and accuracy (too many balls behind the receivers or over thrown).

But since he was a starter for a few yrs I'd think we would get a low 1st round out of him or 2nd round. I'd settle for a 2nd round but you have to go with what the market will give or keep him. If a 3rd and a 5th is all we can get then either cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet or take the trade.[/quote]

I don't want to get into another JC argument, but once again people like you that point flaws at just the QB drive me insane.

Campbell has his flaws, but he's not the turd that some fans make him out to be....JaMarcus Russell, now there's a turd that's worth nothing. If there's a good trade opportunity, then the team should take it....if not, keep JC, if not, then keep him until whatever rook we pick up is ready to take the reins.

Even Shanahan did not throw Cutler into the fire right away, and I don't think he should throw a Bradford or Clausen into the fire right away. We have a terrible line that it will be rebuilt (hopefully), but it will be unproven once the 2010 season begins. That alone should be the reason why you don't want your priced #4 draft pick rookie behind center on day 1.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665980]And part of the reason why that QB hasn't worked is because we just focused on skill position players and had a turd for an offensive line.

I know someone will come and try to rip me a new one because I bash the people that want a QB, but I just don't understand how these people can be so non-chalant (sp?) about the offensive line.[/quote]

Not going to bash you. Just pointing out you said you want atleast a OL picked up in the 2nd round. We can still do that. I can tell you I was one of those skill position people and was estatic after Thomas, Kelly, and Davis were drafted. I can tell you after this year I have been on the OL, OL, OL, bandwagon. I know I don't sound like it but I'm using reason vs. simply saying "We need OL so they better go get it."

Think about it. Just about every HC that takes over a team is because they were a crappy team prior. Then the HC drafts a QB he thinks will work out best for his system. So lets say Shanahan does the same thing (which is proven to be most likely), then we can trade of some trade value players ie; Moss, Landry, Campbell, get more draft picks for our OL, and get a Vet QB that either M.Shanahan knows and likes or K.Shanahan knows and likes.

But keep in mind, we can't pick up every one we need in one draft, and we are more then 1 player away from getting to the SB. So lets pick up our "Field General" while we have a high draft pick, pick up several OL in this draft and through FA, and see where we can pick up a LB, NT, and FS. Thats not even mentioning a possible RB. Will CP be cleared to play? Do we want to settle with aged players in Betts and Cartwright? will Ganther, Mason, and Alridge be better in the new blocking sheme? or do we look to FA or draft a young buck for the new scheme?

Plus like you being so tired of hearing about Shanahan getting great production out of mid to late round talent, I'm tired of hearing about all the excuses for JC. Yes the OL sucked. But on almost every play I could count 4-7 seconds he had to do something with the ball, which by the way is about the time most QB's have to get rid of the ball, to only witness JC throw it away or behind the reciever. That's not even counting the times he failed to adjust his protection to the correct side or change the play to a more suitable play. Campbell had 4-7 seconds. Go look. Thats why the WCO designed 3, 5, and 7 step drops then added hitches(forward skip steps) so it kinda helps the QB know when to get rid of the ball with out having to sit back there looking over the field saying "one thousand and one, one thousand and two.... oh crap I'm gunna get hit any second." I literally screamed at the tv saying throw the damn ball. But I think part of the problem was Zorn's scheme. It sucked. Just like many DC said when asked about the Skins offense. I mean look a Bingo caller came in and got better production out of the players we had and against better teams.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665984]I don't want to get into another JC argument, but once again people like you that point flaws at just the QB drive me insane.

Campbell has his flaws, but he's not the turd that some fans make him out to be....JaMarcus Russell, now there's a turd that's worth nothing. If there's a good trade opportunity, then the team should take it....if not, keep JC, if not, then keep him until whatever rook we pick up is ready to take the reins.

Even Shanahan did not throw Cutler into the fire right away, and I don't think he should throw a Bradford or Clausen into the fire right away. We have a terrible line that it will be rebuilt (hopefully), but it will be unproven once the 2010 season begins. That alone should be the reason why you don't want your priced #4 draft pick rookie behind center on day 1.[/quote]

I'm not a Russell fan. Yes he sucks. I don't think anyone would have picked him up but the Raiders cause Al Davis likes his players to be the fastes out of the draft. Forget skills.

I too agree we should keep JC. As much as I'm bashing him.... he is safe with the ball. I'd cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet. I see no other Vets out there that are better then him. Which means I'm making him a backup unless the Rookie QB needs time as you said. Dude I'm with on this. I just don't think JC is our Franchise QB and am ready to move on in the sense that we need to be looking for our Franchise QB. We simply can't keep saying after 6yrs "maybe JC will work out this yr". He's a great backup. Nothing more. Keep him cause if he's required to start the season or be backup and step into a game he will be safe with the ball and not be a screw up like some back ups.... ie; Collins.

I guarentee you just like Smootsmack has said Shanahan will not let the OL be mediocre. stop fretting. :) If nothing else know that Shanahan was know to have the best OL's in the NFL. He'll get what he needs. and as far as Rookie QB being thrown into the fire you oppinion and mine has always been one of the interesting debates among coach's. Some believe in throwing the Rookie in right away as the Falcons, Ravens, and Jets have and they had some success. Then there's the other side of the coin, look at Patrick Ramsey. Throwing a Rookie in with no protection will destroy the teams valuable draft pick. I totally agree. I guess I just have more faith in Shanahan fixing this cluster of an OL then other people.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SBXVII;665987]I'm not a Russell fan. Yes he sucks. I don't think anyone would have picked him up but the Raiders cause Al Davis likes his players to be the fastes out of the draft. Forget skills.

[B]I too agree we should keep JC. As much as I'm bashing him.... he is safe with the ball. [/B]I'd cut Collins and keep JC as our Vet. I see no other Vets out there that are better then him. Which means I'm making him a backup unless the Rookie QB needs time as you said. Dude I'm with on this. I just don't think JC is our Franchise QB and am ready to move on in the sense that we need to be looking for our Franchise QB. We simply can't keep saying after 6yrs "maybe JC will work out this yr". He's a great backup. Nothing more. [B]Keep him cause if he's required to start the season or be backup and step into a game he will be safe with the ball and not be a screw up like some back ups.... ie; Collins[/B].
[B]
I guarentee you just like Smootsmack has said Shanahan will not let the OL be mediocre. stop fretting[/B]. :) If nothing else know that Shanahan was know to have the best OL's in the NFL. He'll get what he needs. and as far as Rookie QB being thrown into the fire you oppinion and mine has always been one of the interesting debates among coach's. Some believe in throwing the Rookie in right away as the Falcons, Ravens, and Jets have and they had some success. Then there's the other side of the coin, look at Patrick Ramsey. Throwing a Rookie in with no protection will destroy the teams valuable draft pick. I totally agree. I guess I just have more faith in Shanahan fixing this cluster of an OL then other people.[/quote]

As to first two points in bold, it's hard to say JC is "safe" with the ball. Sure two years ago he was hardly intercepted, but he barely threw any TDs either, and our offense as a whole was pretty awful. This past year he threw more INTs, and also fumbled a bunch. In fact, in 2009, he threw 15 picks and fumbled 13 times. There are worse starting QBs out there for sure, but he's not really "safe" with the ball. Full disclosure, I think he should be our day 1 starter this season.

As to the third point, I agree. Let's remember that as recently as two years ago, Mike Shanahan drafted Ryan Clady. He knows the OL is a priority for sure.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Bigreds77;665921]DIE-NASTY great post the same people that bashed Vinny for taking skilled players instead of a O Line are now wanting to draft a QB that may never work out.[/quote]

and since you kept a spreadsheet please enlighten us

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=celts32;665963]Because he hasn't really done much. He will probably never be more then a pretty good player. Russell is worthless but why would JC be worth more then Derek Anderson? Anderson had a season a couple years ago that was better then anything JC has done. I don't want to completely trash JC but i just think it's time to move on and i would be thrilled to get a #3 pick in the process.[/quote]A pretty good player at the quarterback position though should grab more in a trade than a pretty good player at the defensive tackle position, for example.

I would propose that Campbell has had three better seasons than Anderson's best, but I'm probably overrating Campbell's 2007 in doing that (he had some talent around him that year, probably comparable to what Anderson had). Anderson more or less has three good games in his career, and those haven't weathered the test of time.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665977]I'm sick of hearing this....



Even if it isn't with a first round tackle, I want the team to put a lot of focus and resources in building the offensive line and not "chance it" with just low round picks.

Didn't we use to say the same thing about Bugle? "Oh he can coach anyone up."

[B]I want for the team to draft at least a 2nd round tackle, to do their homework on the limited talent in free agency, and have a plan to address the offensive line, and not just hope that a whole bunch of mid to low rounders just work out.[/B][/quote]

You know it seems that I and several others have repeatedly advocated taking a QB in the 1st (I lean toward Bradford-slightly, SS33 leans toward Clausen-by a large margin) and addressing the OL with our 2nd round pick and beyond...yet all that seems to get through is "Take a QB!!

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=GMScud;665962]There are a lot of deals/discussions in Indy during the combine. Teams will be wheeling and dealing during the next week or so.

I find it hard to believe we'd trade Campbell without getting a QB in return. That would leave us with Todd Collins (who I doubt will be a Skin in the fall) and Colt Brennan. No bueno. If we do trade JC for just draft picks, we'd obviously be looking to draft Clausen or Bradford, but what if they both go in the top 3? Granted, that's unlikely, but still. And then where would we be?[/quote]

I think they're pretty confident that either Clausen or Bradford would be there at 4. Plus, if the rumors are true, Pike and McCoy are guys they're interested in in the 2nd round. Personally, not a huge fan of either one and I don't totally buy either of those rumors.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SBXVII;665986]Not going to bash you. Just pointing out you said you want atleast a OL picked up in the 2nd round. We can still do that. I can tell you I was one of those skill position people and was estatic after Thomas, Kelly, and Davis were drafted. I can tell you after this year I have been on the OL, OL, OL, bandwagon. I know I don't sound like it but I'm using reason vs. simply saying "We need OL so they better go get it."

Think about it. Just about every HC that takes over a team is because they were a crappy team prior. Then the HC drafts a QB he thinks will work out best for his system. So lets say Shanahan does the same thing (which is proven to be most likely), then we can trade of some trade value players ie; Moss, Landry, Campbell, get more draft picks for our OL, and get a Vet QB that either M.Shanahan knows and likes or K.Shanahan knows and likes.

But keep in mind, we can't pick up every one we need in one draft, and we are more then 1 player away from getting to the SB. So lets pick up our "Field General" while we have a high draft pick, pick up several OL in this draft and through FA, and see where we can pick up a LB, NT, and FS. Thats not even mentioning a possible RB. Will CP be cleared to play? Do we want to settle with aged players in Betts and Cartwright? will Ganther, Mason, and Alridge be better in the new blocking sheme? or do we look to FA or draft a young buck for the new scheme?

Plus like you being so tired of hearing about Shanahan getting great production out of mid to late round talent, I'm tired of hearing about all the excuses for JC. Yes the OL sucked. But on almost every play I could count 4-7 seconds he had to do something with the ball, which by the way is about the time most QB's have to get rid of the ball, to only witness JC throw it away or behind the reciever. That's not even counting the times he failed to adjust his protection to the correct side or change the play to a more suitable play. Campbell had 4-7 seconds. Go look. Thats why the WCO designed 3, 5, and 7 step drops then added hitches(forward skip steps) so it kinda helps the QB know when to get rid of the ball with out having to sit back there looking over the field saying "one thousand and one, one thousand and two.... oh crap I'm gunna get hit any second." I literally screamed at the tv saying throw the damn ball. But I think part of the problem was Zorn's scheme. It sucked. Just like many DC said when asked about the Skins offense. I mean look a Bingo caller came in and got better production out of the players we had and against better teams.[/quote]


I am not sure which game(s) you were watching. I dont recall Jason having 4-7 seconds to get rid of the ball. No one generally has that long to get rid of the ball. So lets be realistic. Jason was one of the most beat up QB's in the NFL. I dont think anyone argues that nor the fact the Oline was god awful. However, he did finish upper half of the league when the season ended, so if you look at it that way then he could be a far more productive QB if given the average amount of time in the pocket.

Now, for drafting a QB with the #4 pick. I just dont think is maximizing the pick. Especially if we are giving Campbell every opportunity to keep his job. What if Jason goes and lights it up (if the line is better) and we get into the playoffs. What now! You have Campbell who did what everyone expected behind a good Oline and now a #4 pick sitting on the bench. Wasted pick. Now, since we will probably offer JC a 1 year tender, now since he is a FA, we get nothing in return because we are not going to invest big money in him, we aren't going to tag him, and now no way to trade him. This of course is saying he has a good year.

2nd - say we draft a QB, and ignore what we should be doing by drafting the best olineman in the draft, he gets the job and now he is getting the crap beat out of him behind the oline. That is no way for a rookie QB to start a career and become productive.

We draft oline at 4 and in the 2nd. See whats available in the later rounds. Take whats there...RB, CB, LB, whatever. We are going to sign a couple of players in FA anyway.

About trading some of the players.. just dont see it. Who is going to trade for Moss, Portis, Randel El, JC??? NO ONE... 1st off Moss and Randel El can't get open if I am covering them. Portis is a 30 year old RB that no one is going to want. LT just got cut and Portis aint no LT. No one is going to offer a 1st and 3rd for JC, and no one is going to trade for him next year because he will be a FA. So we basically waste another 1st round pick and a 3rd to move up to get him.

I just hope this FO has a clue this offseason. I stand behind what ever they do, QB or no QB.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

I to stand by whatever the FO does but i would feel better if they traded back and went OL, OL, OL & you fill in the rest. But like i said whatever they do i will support with a grain of salt.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;665984]I don't want to get into another JC argument, but once again people like you that point flaws at just the QB drive me insane.

Campbell has his flaws, but he's not the turd that some fans make him out to be....JaMarcus Russell, now there's a turd that's worth nothing. If there's a good trade opportunity, then the team should take it....if not, keep JC, if not, then keep him until whatever rook we pick up is ready to take the reins.

Even Shanahan did not throw Cutler into the fire right away, and I don't think he should throw a Bradford or Clausen into the fire right away. We have a terrible line that it will be rebuilt (hopefully), but it will be unproven once the 2010 season begins. That alone should be the reason why you don't want your priced #4 draft pick rookie behind center on day 1.[/quote]

It says a lot about JC when you are saying he's less of a turd than Russell. Talk about setting the bar low. You are right, I'll take JC over JR any day.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

4-7 seconds to throw is an eternity in this league. Having that much time is pretty rare. Most QBs have 3 seconds at the most. You might want to check your stop watch there SBXVII.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

Its funny reading all the speculation of who we will pick or if we trade etc. Its exciting and fun. But one thing I have noticed is:

Where has all that JC love gone??? and now hearing the arguement of general importance of the QB position...and yet we fo sho have the worst O line in the NFL...

Im just finally happy we have great people making these personel decisions.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Chico23231;666060]Its funny reading all the speculation of who we will pick or if we trade etc. Its exciting and fun. But one thing I have noticed is:

Where has all that JC love gone??? and now hearing the arguement of general importance of the QB position...and yet we fo sho have the worst O line in the NFL...

Im just finally happy we have great people making these personel decisions.[/quote]

I dont know if all the love is gone, as it is that more and more people are being swayed by the idea that this might be the ideal time to grab a qb for the future.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;666022]A pretty good player at the quarterback position though should grab more in a trade than a pretty good player at the defensive tackle position, for example.

I would propose that Campbell has had three better seasons than Anderson's best, but I'm probably overrating Campbell's 2007 in doing that (he had some talent around him that year, probably comparable to what Anderson had). Anderson more or less has three good games in his career, and those haven't weathered the test of time.[/quote]

I think we differ on what "pretty good" means. I see him as a game manager...I think he is a low end starter or a very good backup. I don't see him taking a team anywhere unless it is a great team that can win with a QB that doesn't make a lot of plays or mistakes. To me a 3rd round pick is pretty good for that type of player.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=celts32;666074]I think we differ on what "pretty good" means. I see him as a game manager...[B]I think he is a low end starter or a very good backup.[/B] I don't see him taking a team anywhere unless it is a great team that can win with a QB that doesn't make a lot of plays or mistakes. To me a 3rd round pick is pretty good for that type of player.[/quote]

But, as everyone knows, backup QB's (outside of Jim Sorgi) often see important playing time and thus are important themselves. So, for example, Dallas traded a starting corner (Henry) to obtain a reliable backup QB (Kitna). A good backup QB is worth gold. If JC is at best a backup, he'd still be the best backup in the league. It would be a shame for us to lose the best backup QB in the league for only a 3rd round pick.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=#56fanatic;666030]I am not sure which game(s) you were watching. I dont recall Jason having 4-7 seconds to get rid of the ball. No one generally has that long to get rid of the ball. So lets be realistic. Jason was one of the most beat up QB's in the NFL. I dont think anyone argues that nor the fact the Oline was god awful. However, he did finish upper half of the league when the season ended, so if you look at it that way then he could be a far more productive QB if given the average amount of time in the pocket.

Now, for drafting a QB with the #4 pick. I just dont think is maximizing the pick. Especially if we are giving Campbell every opportunity to keep his job. What if Jason goes and lights it up (if the line is better) and we get into the playoffs. What now! You have Campbell who did what everyone expected behind a good Oline and now a #4 pick sitting on the bench. Wasted pick. Now, since we will probably offer JC a 1 year tender, now since he is a FA, we get nothing in return because we are not going to invest big money in him, we aren't going to tag him, and now no way to trade him. This of course is saying he has a good year.

2nd - say we draft a QB, and ignore what we should be doing by drafting the best olineman in the draft, he gets the job and now he is getting the crap beat out of him behind the oline. That is no way for a rookie QB to start a career and become productive.

We draft oline at 4 and in the 2nd. See whats available in the later rounds. Take whats there...RB, CB, LB, whatever. We are going to sign a couple of players in FA anyway.

About trading some of the players.. just dont see it. Who is going to trade for Moss, Portis, Randel El, JC??? NO ONE... 1st off Moss and Randel El can't get open if I am covering them. Portis is a 30 year old RB that no one is going to want. LT just got cut and Portis aint no LT. No one is going to offer a 1st and 3rd for JC, and no one is going to trade for him next year because he will be a FA. So we basically waste another 1st round pick and a 3rd to move up to get him.

I just hope this FO has a clue this offseason. I stand behind what ever they do, QB or no QB.[/quote]

Good points some what valid but no different then our political system with the Dems and Repubs, your at the other end of the spectrum.

1) Almost every game I watched he had 4-7 seconds. I can remember around the 8th week close to the break the announcers even mentioned the time JC was being given after the snap and also said they didn't see that he had any less time vs. other QB's. Basically they were giving props to the make shift OL. The big question is ... was he seeing the whole field in reference to open receivers? and were the receivers getting open quick enough? Again it goes back to we never had a legit #1 WR. Plus JC only trusted is fail safes...ie; Moss, ARE, and Cooley.

2) If our intention was to simply draft a QB and screw the pooch on the OL then yes your 100% correct. The poor QB will get all beat up and will not be worth anything. Like Smootsmack said those of you who are against taking a QB with the 4th pick sound like Shanahan is going to have amnesia in regards to the OL and not do anything to shore it up. Do you guys think Shanahan is going to completely ignore the OL? Cerrato would have and did. Everyone felt Buges was god when it came to OL. I loved him to death but after last year I'm glad he's retired. Whether you blame it on the quality of OL or partially the scheme, I'm blaming both. Shanahan knows the OL is an issue. He's not going to come in here and not do something about it especially when he's known for having the best OL in the NFL year in and year out.

3) you mention the team or fans giving JC the opportunity to keep his job. Honestly I think he lost it either 1 or 2 yrs ago. I think DS has moved on and Cerrato did last summer. I'm hedging my bet and saying Zorn also but what HC is going to come out and say the QB sucks and then get stuck with the QB cause a trade was not possible? Zorn had to come out smelling like roses with JC. So he takes JC's side in front of the media but tells DS and Cerrato he needs a better QB. The Skins would be an idiot if they didn't tender JC. Why? simply cause he's a good QB but he's not great. If they plan to get rid of old Collins then name one half young Vet out there that is better then JC? and available. Why take a QB? cause Collins is old and need to go, Brennan has yet to step up due to injuries, So all we have is JC and Brennan. JC is 28 yrs old. I'm not saying he's old but ... he's not young either. QB's playing like Favre until they are 40 is usually not heard of. Most play until 30 or mid 30's. "IF" JC has an awsome year next year then give him the contract he deserves and the Rookie will just have to sit on the bench and wait his turn. We had money tied up in Brunell and paid JC well also so thats not an issue. If JC works out great we have his back up and someone to take over if he gets hurt or retires.

You all act like we should just wait, draft all OL this year, and pick up a Rookie QB next year and throw him to the fire then when you don't want to do it now. I'd rather have drafted a Rookie now and "IF" he's better then JC then start him if not let him get a year under his belt and start him next year already knowing the system and play calls vs. drafting next year with the hope we get a decent QB and can coach him up prior to the season.

4) You talk about the trades.... your right maybe no one wants our players or maybe someone will. We don't know unless we shop them. I'm betting there are teams out there that these guys would be upgrades to what those teams already have. and I'll say it again... Moss and ARE were used in the wrong spots, but when you have lemons you make lemon ade. ARE I felt had his best year last year because he was moved to a position that better suits him. We needed a valid #1 WR to take pressure off Moss and move him to the #2 spot where he would definitly have done better. ARE to the #3 spot helped out last year.

and lastly your right no one would want Portis. I don't even want Portis. I have issues with him... has he been cleared to play yet? will he be allowed to play or forced to retire?, he's old as well as Betts and Rock, his work ethic, then there is his big contract. Who knows what will happen after this year but all we know is if players are to be cut with out being penilized then this is the year prior to any new cap is put into place. This also goes for Samuels and any others.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=doughtydoubter;666066]I dont know if all the love is gone, as it is that more and more people are being swayed by the idea that this might be the ideal time to grab a qb for the future.[/quote]

You might be right. To me it seems easier and happens more often that you can pick up an OL any where in the draft and with good coaching and scheme they will do fine starting. QB's are a different issue. I know people will throw up the stats again in regards to all the big starters and when they were drafted but to me those are diamonds in the rough and the team got lucky. I just don't see the Skins being able to pick up someone like that mid to late in the draft. JC has done well but he's not great. Brennan has been injured too much but a lot of you feel he's just camp fodder getting lucky. Daniels last year, I liked him and bet he turns out pretty good with the Saints. But none are Franchise QB's. Remember Ramsey? LOL.

I just feel if a Franchise QB is needed (which we don't have) and you have a high draft pick and the pickings are slim then QB is a no brainer. Then I'm throwing in the fact that in almost everytime a team picks a new HC a QB is drafted who the HC thinks will be able to work his system. So I'm not just saying it cause I want it I'm saying it cause it almost always happens so expect Shanahan to do it. If he doesn't then I'm fine with it. But I'll say next year we won't have as high of a pick so don't expect to get one of the top tier QB's next year either. Expect more of the extremely coached up variety of QB. Then there's what do we do if we don't draft a QB this year and next year JC say goodbye? who takes over? a Rookie?

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=celts32;666074]I think we differ on what "pretty good" means. I see him as a game manager...I think he is a low end starter or a very good backup. I don't see him taking a team anywhere unless it is a great team that can win with a QB that doesn't make a lot of plays or mistakes. To me a 3rd round pick is pretty good for that type of player.[/quote]

I agree with you except I think your pushing the game manager stuff a bit either that or I'm getting game manager and clock manager combined. I don't think he's a good clock manager.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

Let's say we draft Bradford. Preseason he's out their with the 2nd or 3rd string OL some eager young DF player hit's him after the fact he's out for the season. I know that could happen to any player but he has a history now i just think 4th is to high for a QB with a little history like that (i think Bradford is a better QB than Clausen & i'm a ND fan). This is why i'm beating that drum that says trade back if possible for more picks. If we picked up more picks then i would say yes.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Lotus;666076]But, as everyone knows, backup QB's (outside of Jim Sorgi) often see important playing time and thus are important themselves. So, for example, Dallas traded a starting corner (Henry) to obtain a reliable backup QB (Kitna). A good backup QB is worth gold. If JC is at best a backup, he'd still be the best backup in the league. It would be a shame for us to lose the best backup QB in the league for only a 3rd round pick.[/quote]

I don't think Kitna or Henry are worth a 3rd round pick. But I am not disputing the value of a good backup QB either. However, I don't see any way that JC can be the backup on the Redskins. If JC is not going to be the starter for Shanahan then all involved will need a fresh start. He will not want to be the backup here and we do not need the distraction of having a player that dosn't want to be here.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Lotus;666076]But, as everyone knows, backup QB's (outside of Jim Sorgi) often see important playing time and thus are important themselves. So, for example, Dallas traded a starting corner (Henry) to obtain a reliable backup QB (Kitna). A good backup QB is worth gold. If JC is at best a backup, he'd still be the best backup in the league. It would be a shame for us to lose the best backup QB in the league for only a 3rd round pick.[/quote]

[SIZE=5][COLOR=red]BINGO![/COLOR][/SIZE]
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In most cases starters are worth a 1st round pick unless they are old or a problem ie; R.Moss, T.O. and so on. JC has another good 6-7 yrs left on him. I'd take a very low #1 draft pick or a 2nd rounder for him. But if there are no bites and someone offers a 3rd and a 5th what do you do? No bites and two picks for him... I'd have to see what Vet I had in mind to replace him with before excepting the offer.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=celts32;666086]I don't think Kitna or Henry are worth a 3rd round pick. But I am not disputing the value of a good backup QB either. However, I don't see any way that JC can be the backup on the Redskins. If JC is not going to be the starter for Shanahan then all involved will need a fresh start. He will not want to be the backup here and we do not need the distraction of having a player that dosn't want to be here.[/quote]

JC is going into this season as the starter and I'm sure in Shanny's eyes it would be his job to lose (even if we draft Bradford). If by halfway into the season, JC is the same guy as previous years, then Shanahan would pull him and insert the rook QB. If Campbell does well, then the rook QB sits.

I don't understand why people are so afraid of there being a "distraction" with Campbell here. All the drama last year was caused by Snyder and Cerrato, and their incompetence in trying to build a team by putting a "better" QB behind the POS line we had. Things are different now with Allen and Shanny in charge, and Campbell knows this would be his last shot at either staying on the team, or audition for the rest of the league.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=celts32;666086]I don't think Kitna or Henry are worth a 3rd round pick. But I am not disputing the value of a good backup QB either. However, I don't see any way that JC can be the backup on the Redskins. [B]If JC is not going to be the starter for Shanahan then all involved will need a fresh start. He will not want to be the backup here and we do not need the distraction of having a player that dosn't want to be here.[/B][/quote]

and this is my dilema. Tender him and tell him the spot is open to the best QB. Hopefully JC steps up and shines and we are all supprised and the team gives him a contract next year. If he can't beat out the Rookie or is relegated to back up he definitly won't be happy or want to stay after next year which means he leaves but it buys us a year with a decent Vet in JC and time to find someone else to fill his shoes when he leaves.

If we don't pick up a QB then the team is still not happy with his performance and then all we have is Brennan and some mid to late round draft pick from this year and pray a decent one falls to us next year when we are farther down the draft in round 1 or pick up a QB in FA. I'd rather have someone learning this year if he's not better and ready to take over next year if JC is not in the plans. If JC is then we have two awsome QB's.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=doughtydoubter;666066]I dont know if all the love is gone, as it is that more and more people are being swayed by the idea that this might be the ideal time to grab a qb for the future.[/quote]

I think its finally an ideal time to address 4 out of 5 starting positions along the Oline. If we trade away JC and then put Bradford back there with that shoulder, that would be a huge mistake. If Shanny and Allen feel like he will be a franchise QB who can lead this team to the playoffs in several years by all means then take him. Clausen IMO is not a top ten pick, really hope we would trade back to take him. BUT if there any issue about Bradford not being that player or that shoulder is going to be a constant issue, we need to be Oline focused.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=SBXVII;666084]I agree with you except I think your pushing the game manager stuff a bit either that or I'm getting game manager and clock manager combined. I don't think he's a good clock manager.[/quote]

No I didn't mean clock manager at all. I just mean he's a decent player. He is not taking a team anywhere that it could not have gone without him basically. A lot of QB's in the NFL lose games on their own...he's not in that group either. He's just okay...and I for one am tired of "okay" when it comes to the QB of the Redskins. I want the Redskins to find a Franchise QB that can be the reason they win games. I look forward to one day loading this website and not finding any threads talking about what we are going to do at the QB position.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;666088]JC is going into this season as the starter and I'm sure in Shanny's eyes it would be his job to lose (even if we draft Bradford). If by halfway into the season, JC is the same guy as previous years, then Shanahan would pull him and insert the rook QB. If Campbell does well, then the rook QB sits.

I don't understand why people are so afraid of there being a "distraction" with Campbell here. All the drama last year was caused by Snyder and Cerrato, and their incompetence in trying to build a team by putting a "better" QB behind the POS line we had. Things are different now with Allen and Shanny in charge, and Campbell knows this would be his last shot at either staying on the team, or audition for the rest of the league.[/quote]

I am fine with JC going into the season as the starter if that's what Shanni wants...I am also fine with taking the 3rd round pick for him now if that's what they want to do. I don't think JC is a distraction at all if he comes back and is the starting QB to start out the year. I think it's only a potential distraction if they attempt to bring him back as purely the backup. If he is the starter and loses the job through performance then i don't see him as the type of guy to cause any problems in that scenario.

Re: Redskins trading out of the 4 spot?
 

The shoulder thing with Bradford is getting a bit tired. If he's given a clean bill of health it's a moot point. Like SS said, if teams didn't draft players with injury histories there would be no draft. At this point in their lives I don't think there's a player out there without a history of injuries.