Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675511]Did the Roman Empire fall before or after 1066? That my friend is when Christianity was forced upon the British by descendants of Vikings living in modern day France off the WWII famous coast of Normandy.[/quote]

The ignorance displayed by this statement is proof of my initial point. Do you know when the Roman Empire established itself in England? Do you know when monastaries were established in modern day england? Ever heard of Lindesfarne (without googling it)? The Saxons were Christians well before the Normans landed.

Read a f'ing book idiot.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

JR, you usually show more restraint. whats got you fired up? :)

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675527]The ignorance displayed by this statement is proof of my initial point. Do you know when the Roman Empire established itself in England? Do you know when monastaries were established in modern day england? Ever heard of Lindesfarne (without googling it)? The Saxons were Christians well before the Normans landed.

Read a f'ing book idiot.[/quote]

If my memory serves me well, the Vikings themselves invaded England to raid the monastaries.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Lotus;675518]Christians did save many works which may have been destroyed in the fall of Rome.

However, ancient Christians also burned the books of Aristotle and Plato, indirectly helping to launch the so-called "Dark Ages." The only reason we still have many of these ancient Greek philosophical classics is because they were saved and studied by medieval Muslims. Of course, Muslims have since burned other books, such as "The Satanic Verses."

I'm agreeing with you, tryfuhl.[/quote]

And I agree with you too. As I said, religion (whether muslim, christianity, hinduism or many others) has been used by men for evil purposes. It has also passed considerable benefits to civilization. If you choose to focusing on the bad, and ignore the good - so be it, that is your choice. Just don't pretend that good did not happen.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

This my friend is how Europe escaped the Dark Ages. This answers the question why do we use the Arabic Number system instead fo the monastery number system (which includes zero), and also the reason all known stars of antiquity have Arabic names.


In his book titled, "Spain In The Modern World," James Cleuge explains the significance of Cordova in Medieval Europe:

"For there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 70)

During the end of the first millennium, Cordova was the intellectual well from which European humanity came to drink. Students from France and England traveled there to sit at the feet of Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars, to learn philosophy, science and medicine (Digest, 1973, p. 622). [B]In the great library of Cordova alone, there were some 600,000 manuscripts (Burke, 1978, p. 122). [/B]

Hahahahahaha! monks had one book.


This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Moorish Spain, "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

"Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

Kind of hard to give credit for preserving something which they horded and denied to others. Especially when they chose what to preserve and what to destroy based upon how well it meshed with their teachings and subsequent control of the masses. I'm not picking on Christianity. This goes for all organized religion. What I'm saying is that as an organization, their good works were largely self serving. Just my opinion. Love the philosophy of Christianity, but you can keep the "magic."

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=dmek25;675529]JR, you usually show more restraint. whats got you fired up? :)[/quote]

Sorry. It is the general christian bashing and judging the good works of the many by the misdeeds of the minority that has me worked up a bit. Plus, what appears to be the hypocracy of those who accuse Christians of ignoring history and then turn around and make blatantly historically inaccurate statements.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675471]How simple minded can you be man?

What do you do for business I must ask?[/quote]

Yes it is actually very simple. I own an insurance agency and yourself.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675543]This my friend is how Europe escaped the Dark Ages. This answers the question why do we use the Arabic Number system instead fo the monastery number system (which includes zero), and also the reason all known stars of antiquity have Arabic names.


In his book titled, "Spain In The Modern World," James Cleuge explains the significance of Cordova in Medieval Europe:

"For there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 70)

During the end of the first millennium, Cordova was the intellectual well from which European humanity came to drink. Students from France and England traveled there to sit at the feet of Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars, to learn philosophy, science and medicine (Digest, 1973, p. 622). In the great library of Cordova alone, there were some 600,000 manuscripts (Burke, 1978, p. 122).
[B]
Hahahahahaha! monks had one book.[/B]


This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Moorish Spain, "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

"Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)[/quote]

Both false and unfair. Monasteries were the great libraries of Europe outside of Moorish Spain. For just one example, if you have ever heard of Aesop's fables, those tales were preserved from multiple sources over centuries by Christian monasteries.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675543]This my friend is how Europe escaped the Dark Ages. This answers the question why do we use the Arabic Number system instead fo the monastery number system (which includes zero), and also the reason all known stars of antiquity have Arabic names.


In his book titled, "Spain In The Modern World," James Cleuge explains the significance of Cordova in Medieval Europe:

"For there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 70)

During the end of the first millennium, Cordova was the intellectual well from which European humanity came to drink. Students from France and England traveled there to sit at the feet of Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars, to learn philosophy, science and medicine (Digest, 1973, p. 622). [B]In the great library of Cordova alone, there were some 600,000 manuscripts (Burke, 1978, p. 122). [/B]

Hahahahahaha! monks had one book.


This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Moorish Spain, "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

"Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)[/quote]

I guess they forgot the years of war and slaughter that it took to kick out the Moors. El Cid wouldn't agree with this rosy utopia that you've painted.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Mattyk;675469]Seriously.

Fox News really works I guess.[/quote]

Don't realy watch Fox News at most maybe 15 min a week.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;675532]If my memory serves me well, the Vikings themselves invaded England to raid the monastaries.[/quote]

The Battle of Hastings, the Normans are descendants of Vikings. Who cares when the Saxons became Christians. Fact is the Irish did not save civilization with one freaking book. You are reaching.

[B]That my friend is called the reason why we don't need those guys in Texas rewriting our history books.[/B]

fundamentalism = over simplification with a few fabrications thrown in there to force logical square pegs into round holes.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675543]This my friend is how Europe escaped the Dark Ages. This answers the question why do we use the Arabic Number system instead fo the monastery number system (which includes zero), and also the reason all known stars of antiquity have Arabic names.


In his book titled, "Spain In The Modern World," James Cleuge explains the significance of Cordova in Medieval Europe:

"For there was nothing like it, at that epoch, in the rest of Europe. The best minds in that continent looked to Spain for everything which most clearly differentiates a human being from a tiger." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 70)

During the end of the first millennium, Cordova was the intellectual well from which European humanity came to drink. Students from France and England traveled there to sit at the feet of Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars, to learn philosophy, science and medicine (Digest, 1973, p. 622). [B]In the great library of Cordova alone, there were some 600,000 manuscripts (Burke, 1978, p. 122). [/B]

Hahahahahaha! monks had one book.


This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Moorish Spain, "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

"Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)[/quote]

Spain, as an example of religious tolerance is an excellent example [I]and[/I] I agree that the muslim world was the primary savior of ancient knowledge. Again, it was through adhering to the tenents of Islam that this knowledge was preserved as, at the time, knowledge was valued as a path to Allah. I am all good with that. Where Islam did not reach, Christianity, through monastaries, often served as points of learning.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Lotus;675556]Both false and unfair. [B] Monasteries were the great libraries of Europe outside of Moorish Spain.[/B] For just one example, if you have ever heard of Aesop's fables, those tales were preserved from multiple sources over centuries by Christian monasteries.[/quote]

And that, good sir, was my initial premise. Thank you.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

I think I have had my history lesson for today.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675560]The Battle of Hastings, the Normans are descendants of Vikings. Who cares when the Saxons became Christians. Fact is the Irish did not save civilization with one freaking book. [B]You are reaching[/B].

That my friend is called the reason why we don't need those guys in Texas rewriting our history books.

fundamentalism = over simplification with a few fabrications thrown in there to force logical square pegs into round holes.[/quote]

I reach for nothing, my initial premise was simply that christianity played a significant role in preserving ancient knowledge and promoting scholarship. has organized religion also (both muslim and christianity) been used in the destruction of the same? Yup.

It was your stupid, ignorant, dumb, mindless, uneducated assertion that I was wrong in this premise b/c Christianity didn't come to the British Isles until 1066 that, IMO, epitomized the smug criticism of christianity of some on this board.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675567]I think I have had my history lesson for today.[/quote]

That my friend is the dag gone truth.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

Ok, now let's debate the validity of:

All of humanity being descended from two people, one of which was made from the other's rib. These two people lived in a wonderful garden, but were tricked into eating mystical fruit by a tricky reptile.

Magic sea creatures that swallow people without digesting them and then spit them out on the beach.

"Angels" committing genocide by murdering the first born sons of a given ethnic group.

The surface tension of water and the associated application to mideastern carpenters.

Ghosts. No really, f'ing ghosts.

Demons, Devils and the like...

[B]Religion is not for the rational mind.[/B]

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

Let's try to keep things civil here and refrain from personal attacks. Threads the last few days have gotten pretty heated and personal.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

Give it up for scholars from [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus"]Al-Andalus[/URL]...no one did it bigger and better in saving the west from the dark ages. Cordoba, Granada, Seville, Toledo oh my.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;675544]Kind of hard to give credit for preserving something which [B]they horded and denied to others[/B]. Especially when they chose what to preserve and what to destroy based upon how well it meshed with their teachings and subsequent control of the masses. I'm not picking on Christianity. This goes for all organized religion. What I'm saying is that as an organization, their good works were largely self serving. Just my opinion. Love the philosophy of Christianity, but you can keep the "magic."[/quote]

First, not sure why you say "horded". As a general rule, I believe the books were there for anyone to use. If you have something that says to the contrary, I would be glad to review it. At the same time, it's one of those things that, until the time of Charlemagne, no one but the church thought it important to read. Charlemagne, upon his conversion to Christianity, actively sought to expand knowledge throughout his kingdom.

Again, obviously, anything [I]can be[/I] self serving to assert that the Church's good works were "largely self serving" is a subjective opinion with which I disagree. I am not blind to the flaws, just don't think they discredit the accompanying good works.

As for "magic", I don't buy it either - but that's another story altogether.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=SmootSmack;675585]Let's try to keep things civil here and refrain from personal attacks. Threads the last few days have gotten pretty heated and personal.[/quote]

Just wanted to second this.

Not sure what's up recently, but yeah people are getting a little out of hand. Let's tone it down.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

I think you guys studied to much while I was out having too much fun.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=firstdown;675594]I think you guys studied to much while I was out having too much fun.[/quote]


Are you implying you can't have fun studying?

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

See good things don't come out of Texas: Bogus changes to history books, Jerry Jones, the Dallas Cowboys, etc., etc. LOL.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;675580]Ok, now let's debate the validity of:

All of humanity being descended from two people, one of which was made from the other's rib. These two people lived in a wonderful garden, but were tricked into eating mystical fruit by a tricky reptile.

Magic sea creatures that swallow people without digesting them and then spit them out on the beach.

"Angels" committing genocide by murdering the first born sons of a given ethnic group.

The surface tension of water and the associated application to mideastern carpenters.

Ghosts. No really, f'ing ghosts.

Demons, Devils and the like...

[B]Religion is not for the rational mind.[/B][/quote]

Ever heard of symbolism and poetry - myth and legend? Perhaps these are tools to gaining a deeper understanding of that which drives the universe (if anything does).

With that said, ultimately, you believe in a universe that can be explained through finite means and that we, as humans, could fully discover if given enough time. If that is the leap of faith you wish to make - so be it.

Mine is that there is a truth beyond human understanding which we, as finite beings, can and should work to glimpse but, as finite beings (individually and corporately), can only discover through grace.

Oops. Guess I am not being rational. Silly religious me.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=SmootSmack;675585]Let's try to keep things civil here and refrain from personal attacks. Threads the last few days have gotten pretty heated and personal.[/quote]

If this was aimed at me or if I my words furthered this. I apologize.

JoeT - Specifically, I apologize for the "stupid, ignorant, dumb, mindless, uneducated assertion" comment. Well, except for the "uneducated" part b/c you were, in fact, wrong about your assertion.

Again, sorry to all.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675611]Ever heard of symbolism and poetry - myth and legend? Perhaps these are tools to gaining a deeper understanding of that which drives the universe (if anything does).

With that said, ultimately, you believe in a universe that can be explained through finite means and that we, as humans, could fully discover if given enough time. If that is the leap of faith you wish to make - so be it.

Mine is that there is a truth beyond human understanding which we, as finite beings, can and should work to glimpse but, as finite beings (individually and corporately), can only discover through grace.

Oops. Guess I am not being rational. Silly religious me.[/quote]

I think there's a balance between religion and logic that no one seems to be able to find. Ironically, I think that as human brains developed (evolution), they began to try to make sense of their surrounding, and this is where religion may have begun (just my assumption, no one bite my head off).

I do have a problem with the mixing of state and religion. This country has not suffered through the centuries of warfare (in our own soil) due to religion, and I think this is why people easily dismiss the problems with religion dictating policy.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=saden1;675599]Are you implying you can't have fun studying?[/quote]
Back then yes!

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Lotus;675518]Christians did save many works which may have been destroyed in the fall of Rome.

However, ancient Christians also burned the books of Aristotle and Plato, indirectly helping to launch the so-called "Dark Ages." The only reason we still have many of these ancient Greek philosophical classics is because they were saved and studied by medieval Muslims. Of course, Muslims have since burned other books, such as "The Satanic Verses."

I'm agreeing with you, tryfuhl.[/quote]

Yep, vicious cycle

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675618]If this was aimed at me or if I my words furthered this. I apologize.

JoeT - Specifically, I apologize for the "stupid, ignorant, dumb, mindless, uneducated assertion" comment. Well, except for the "uneducated" part b/c you were, in fact, wrong about your assertion.

Again, sorry to all.[/quote]

Which assertion about the Battle of Hastings?

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=Ruhskins;675637]I think there's a balance between religion and logic that no one seems to be able to find. Ironically, I think that as human brains developed (evolution), they began to try to make sense of their surrounding, and this is where religion may have begun (just my assumption, no one bite my head off).

I do have a problem with the mixing of state and religion. This country has not suffered through the centuries of warfare (in our own soil) due to religion, and I think this is why people easily dismiss the problems with religion dictating policy.[/quote]

As to mixing religion and logic - Some religious individuals ignore the logical paradoxes created by a belief in God and some secularists say the paradoxes are prove of religion's illogic. On the other hand, many rational people see the paradoxes as posing and encapsulating questions which cannot be answered through simple finite logic. I also agree that the drive behind religion is trying to make sense of our surroundings and things we don't understand. As I have said before, at their best, both religion and science strive to find the truth.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675548]Sorry. It is the general christian bashing and judging the good works of the many by the misdeeds of the minority that has me worked up a bit. Plus, what appears to be the hypocracy of those who accuse Christians of ignoring history and then turn around and make blatantly historically inaccurate statements.[/quote]

making light of things and bashing things aren't exactly the same

I've more than enough heard someone say that they'll "pray for my salvation" and to me that's no different than me saying to believe in your fairy tale

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

i will take this up after I flip off my way home through this traffic.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675573]I reach for nothing, my initial premise was simply that christianity played a significant role in preserving ancient knowledge and promoting scholarship. has organized religion also (both muslim and christianity) been used in the destruction of the same? Yup.

It was your stupid, ignorant, dumb, mindless, uneducated assertion that I was wrong in this premise b/c Christianity didn't come to the British Isles until 1066 that, IMO, epitomized the smug criticism of christianity of some on this board.[/quote]
I'm more concerned about it in this 1000 years than any other millienium

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=SmootSmack;675585]Let's try to keep things civil here and refrain from personal attacks. Threads the last few days have gotten pretty heated and personal.[/quote]

I love making threads here.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;675611]
With that said, ultimately, you believe in a universe that can be explained through finite means and that we, as humans, could fully discover if given enough time. If that is the leap of faith you wish to make - so be it.
[/quote]

If you're referring to science then I'm not sure why you mention finite means.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

The thing is, we can argue about history, who did this, who did that, etc all that we want.

Does any of that make us any more right? Does it mean that any one group was more right than another? Does it mean that the issues that we have today were solved then?

Nope... not sure what people 1000 years ago have to do with this.. if anything it's more proof that it hasn't been solved and there are more questions than answers.

On a personal note, with religion in mind, with no new answers in thousands of years I'm not sure what's left to go on.

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=tryfuhl;675682]The thing is, we can argue about history, who did this, who did that, etc all that we want.

Does any of that make us any more right? Does it mean that any one group was more right than another? Does it mean that the issues that we have today were solved then?

Nope... not sure what people 1000 years ago have to do with this.. if anything it's more proof that it hasn't been solved and there are more questions than answers.[/quote]

It is a bit troublesome when government starts to define history. Just leave it to the academics I say :)

Re: Texas wants to rewrite the US History books
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675667]Which assertion about the Battle of Hastings?[/quote]

[quote=joethiesmanfan;675511]Did the Roman Empire fall before or after 1066? [B]That my friend is when Christianity was forced upon the British by descendants of Vikings living in modern day France off the WWII famous coast of Normandy.[/B][/quote]

That one. It is simply and unequivocally wrong with no basis in historical fact. Christianity in Britain was established by the Romans during their occupation of the British Isles and preserved through monastic life after their withdrawal. The Saxons, who were defeated at Hasting by "descendants of Vikings living in modern day France" most assuredly [I]did not[/I] have Christianity "forced upon them" as they were already Christians.

You used this blatantly wrong assertion to counter my argument that christianity played a large role in saving ancient knowledge after the fall of the Western Roman Empire which I, in turn, had made to counter the "All Christians are idiots b/c some Christians are idiots" arguments that seemed to be pervading the thread.

Thus, after some had seemingly asserted Christians are ignorant and uneducated, you made an ignorant and uneducated statement to refute my assertion that not all Christians are ignorant and uneducated.