Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Hog1;744398]The time to determine who should owe what, what law/rule has been violated, how to handle it going forward, etc is...AFTER we have helped our neighbors to save their pets, their belongings and their house. It is NOT while we watch their lives and those of their dogs and cat go up in flames.
There are times we are all faced with that we SHOULD go against the "grain" and do what is morally right in the face of the rules? It is indeed a shame the fire crew apparently did not feel that way as according to the article, they stood and watched it burn,
Effectively they traded much of these peoples lives for $75. They SHOULD be ashamed. If you can justify it.........wow[/quote]

Except that this man states he was fully aware of the choice he made in not paying the fee.

Again, I think it would be better with an OPT OUT clause, and an express and hefty fine if the fee is not paid either by neglect or, as this man tried to do, playing of the odds. So, if someone opts out in advance, then they know it's on them. If someone is playing the odds, then they know the consequence will be a very substantial fine, or levy on their assets. And hopefully most will do the responsible act and pay the fee upfront so that the assisting county can plan for the future.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;744399]Why is there a fee to begin with?[/quote]

The article explains, but basically the area he lived in doesn't provide fire department services, instead they contract with a neighboring county who charges each household a yearly $75 fee.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744404]Except that this man states he was fully aware of the choice he made in not paying the fee.

Again, I think it would be better with an OPT OUT clause, and an express and hefty fine if the fee is not paid either by neglect or, as this man tried to do, playing of the odds. So, if someone opts out in advance, then they know it's on them. If someone is playing the odds, then they know the consequence will be a very substantial fine, or levy on their assets. And hopefully most will do the responsible act and pay the fee upfront so that the assisting county can plan for the future.[/quote]

As I said, the time to debate this is........after
wow

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

Well, it's nice to debate an individual case after the incident, but from a practical sense, that invites lawsuits, and financial insecurity for the neighboring county who is providing the service. Let's put it this way: Suppose another call comes in, in the county where everyone pays taxes for this fire department, and that house burns because a person who had purposely chosen to not pay the fee was being served. Is that fair. Or suppose, the bordering county, faced with a huge legal fees is forced to shut down service to the whole neighboring area, because their insurance deems it too risky. Is it fair that the whole group of people who had pay the service fee on time every year now loses coverage because the service is terminated?

These things don't happen in a vacuum, and while, yes it is a horrible outcome, it could have been prevented by the man paying the $75 he knew was the fee. Now that he took a gamble, and lost, the fire department is made out to be immoral, or unethical people and that is just as ridiculous.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744406]The article explains, but basically the area he lived in doesn't provide fire department services, instead they contract with a neighboring county who charges each household a yearly $75 fee.[/quote]

I know that much. The question is why is such a system even allowed to be put in place. Why put people in a situation where they could end up watching their house burn with a fire truck out in front? Why is there a fire department that can ignore a fire?

Police, emergency, and fire are basic necessities that everyone is entitled to. EMT's are required to help people in need that aren't even legally allowed to be in the US. Fire protection is not a capitalist free market product. You cannot argue about the refusal to pay a fire protection fee like it's a power bill. Fire's are dangerous. They can spread to neighboring homes, or worst yet turn into a wild fire that takes days and tons of manpower to put out.

You do not ignore a fire. You do not refuse to show up to a fire. You are putting everyone at risk when you do that. The South Fulton fire department got lucky that the fire only spread to the edge of the neighbors yard or field.

I realize that a lot of fire departments are underfunded, and I hate that. However standing in front of a fire is not the time to fight such battles or prove a point. As I alluded to before, if your end game is to get more funding then you're seriously putting future funding at risk by deciding not to put out a fire. Every person that takes at the very least an intro to business class understands the concept and importance of goodwill.

[quote][B]Professional practice goodwill,[/B] as the name implies, is associated with professional practices such as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, architects, engineers and other professional services. Unlike business goodwill, the professional practice goodwill has two components:

[B]1. Practitioner goodwill

2. Practice goodwill[/B]

[B]Practitioner goodwill [/B]relates to the skill and reputation of the individual professional practitioner.

[B]Practice goodwill[/B], much like the business goodwill, arises from the professional practice itself, its institutional reputation, location, [I]track record and operating procedures that make it an effective service provider that can produce superior income.[/I][/quote]

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

More thoughts from a firefighter
[quote]Dan said...
Ok here guys - I am a trained firefighter in Lincoln, NE - from what I have experienced on a regular basis is that firefighters are trying their hardest to build new stations, hire more employees all around, and basically get more money from the budget committee. This incidence ya'll will not help people want to give us money - Charge the guy whatever - just put out the F@#$ing fire, it's what we were trained to do.... hey you're bored sure just stand there, while the rest of the country takes your insensitive act out on all the rest of us that would have put the fire out for sheer compassion[/quote]

MCasler
Here's the phone number for the South Fulton Fire Department 1.731.479.0213 - give them a call to tell them what you think!
7:24 PM Oct 5th via web


[quote]ctholl46@hotmail.com said...
I was a homeowner in South Fulton, TN. This isn't the first fire that didnt get put out, it's one that made the news though. This has been going on for ever there. I remember when I first paid the $75.00 fee, the chief told me "I'll add you to the list". I also called 911 because the field caught fire across the street from me, a week later I recieved a bill for $500.00, they said because my phone number came up, they charged me. ANY 911 call from that town is $500.00, I disputed the charges and they waved the fee!![/quote]

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

I wonder if all the negative exposure was worth the $75 fee? In the business world sometimes whether a company is right or wrong, you do what makes the most business sense, even if it means taking a loss. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that letting a guy's home burn down along with his pets, was the right decision, under any circumstance.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

South Fulton City is inside of Obion County. For an annual fee the city was willing to provide surrounding county area with fire protection. There are no multiple counties involved. You have a city and unincorporated county area. Simple.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=saden1;744431]South Fulton City is inside of Obion County. For an annual fee the city was willing to provide surrounding county area with fire protection. There are no multiple counties involved. You have a city and unincorporated county area. Simple.[/quote]

Okay, seriously who hacked Saden's account?

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;744432]Okay, seriously who hacked Saden's account?[/quote]

Nobody...people are butchering the integrity of the story and I just want to keep it straight.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

These people in unincorporated county areas have a few solutions available to them in light of this incident:[LIST][*]Get a volunteer fire fighting crew together and give the city the finger.[*]Join the city.[*]Form a new city.[*]Expand county services by means of taxation to provide fire protection.[*]Lobby the state to pass a legislation that makes unresponsive fire departments illegal.[*]Burn South Fulton City to the ground and takeover their fire station. If the f*ckers at South Fulton City want to be bitches it's time for them to get stitches.[/LIST]

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

I like the "form a new city" option.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Mattyk;744424][SIZE=4]I wonder if all the negative exposure was worth the $75 fee?[/SIZE] In the business world sometimes whether a company is right or wrong, you do what makes the most business sense, even if it means taking a loss. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that letting a guy's home burn down along with his pets, was the right decision, under any circumstance.[/quote]

BRILLIANT!
and to ...try to justify it in any way soley illustrates what is wrong with...GOVT.
A bit of an over-simplification....but
We will give 498 Cazillion dollars to Haiti when they need it, (and anybody else with their handout) but we cannot figure out how to deal with a $75 municipal fee......utter insanity

I understand the compassion element that matty and hog1 are saying, but what I don't hear from many is the simple acknowledgement that this guy had been aware of the risk of not paying and made the choice not to pay. Yes maybe somehow it could have been handled better, but if the man had paid the 75 fee, which he had in the past, then this would not have happened. Maybe the unincorporated areas or the city could have a hardship assistance fund for it or some other mechanism, but with the laws in place as they are right now, the firefighters did what they were supposed to do.

[QUOTE=Hog1;744462]BRILLIANT!
and to ...try to justify it in any way soley illustrates what is wrong with...GOVT.
A bit of an over-simplification....but
We will give 498 Cazillion dollars to Haiti when they need it, (and anybody else with their handout) but we cannot figure out how to deal with a $75 municipal fee......utter insanity[/QUOTE]
The difference is the federal govt doesn't have to worry about having a 1.3 TRILLION dollar deficit, the local county and city governments do, and they have to worry about their bond ratings and they have people who hold them accountable when trying to raise taxes.
As for Justifying the action, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't look for solutions that keep it from happening going forward. I imagine if you were to research the history of this law you would find many pros and cons both sides of which were fought out in the ballot box.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744469]I understand the compassion element that matty and hog1 are saying, but what I don't hear from many is the [B]simple acknowledgement that this guy had been aware of the risk of not paying and made the choice not to pay.[/B] Yes maybe somehow it could have been handled better, but if the man had paid the 75 fee, which he had in the past, then this would not have happened. Maybe the unincorporated areas or the city could have a hardship assistance fund for it or some other mechanism, but with the laws in place as they are right now, the firefighters did what they were supposed to do.[/quote]

LOL...really? And here I was thinking he said he forgot to pay. People forgetting to pay bills? Unheard of!

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744471]The difference is the federal govt doesn't have to worry about having a 1.3 TRILLION dollar deficit, the local county and city governments do, and they have to worry about their bond ratings and they have people who hold them accountable when trying to raise taxes.
As for Justifying the action, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't look for solutions that keep it from happening going forward. I imagine if you were to research the history of this law you would find many pros and cons both sides of which were fought out in the ballot box.[/quote]

If all the rules had been carefully followed, none of this would happen? Perhaps he made a mistake, perhaps he's an asshole.....it happens. THAT should have been dealt with[B] after[/B] the fire was put out and the locals were busy annointing the local Fireman, as hero's.
This has already boiled into a shitstorm that won't soon be forgotten in those parts and those involved will likely be searching for other employment, or testifying forever.
Sometimes....you just can't play by the rules as they "just don't make sense". They're are a bunch of fireguys and a city manager or two that will figure it out for the sake of..........$75..amazing

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

I'm just not seeing where he said he chose not to pay

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744469]I understand the compassion element that matty and hog1 are saying, but what I don't hear from many is the simple acknowledgement that this guy had been aware of the risk of not paying and [B]made the choice[/B] not to pay. Yes maybe somehow it could have been handled better, but if the man had paid the 75 fee, which he had in the past, then this would not have happened. Maybe the unincorporated areas or the city could have a hardship assistance fund for it or some other mechanism, but with the laws in place as they are right now, the firefighters did what they were supposed to do.[/quote]

From the article:

"I just forgot to pay my $75," Cranick [URL="http://abcnews.go.com/US/tennessee-familys-home-burns-ground-firefighters-stand-watch/story?id=11806407"]told ABC News[/URL]. "I did it last year, the year before. ... It slipped my mind."

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=SmootSmack;744476]I'm just not seeing where he said he chose not to pay[/quote]


Perhaps the fact that he forgot to pay is a choice in itself?

This story is spicy enough...I don't get why people keep throwing in more peppers.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744469]I understand the compassion element that matty and hog1 are saying, .[/quote]

Are you kidding me? How am I not on that list? I'm offended.

He does say he forgot, so my words about choosing were wrong, except if you use Sadens interpretation. However, in his interview with Keith Obermann he also said he knew of several other houses where the various fire departments had refused. So he did know that it could be a consequence. He also said that it had happened once before and a former official had waived the fee, but the new person had a policy not too. I forget things at work way too often, and I have missed bills and made other dumb moves. But in the end, you deal with the consequences. He also said he did have insurance and that they were covering up to the limits of what he paid for.

Just thinking about it further, could the insurance company deny his claim based on his failure to pay the fee?

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;744399]Why is there a fee to begin with?[/quote]

Seriously?

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

To me it comes down to this. It costs money to run a fire department. Putting out the fire in this case, to me, presents a pretty damn clear endangerment to the funding of the fire department. Blame a dumb policy that allows something like this to happen. Don't blame the fire-fighters and their bosses. They have to keep open for business for the greater good. Putting out fires for free works against that. It just does. At the end of the the day they chose not to do something that might end up costing them way more than just one fire. I can't fault them for that. Is it more decent to put the fire out and watch everyone else stop paying the fees and therefore have to curtail the service? Not to me it isn't. They had to choose between two crappy choices.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;744496]He does say he forgot, so my words about choosing were wrong, except if you use Sadens interpretation. However, in his interview with Keith Obermann he also said he knew of several other houses where the various fire departments had refused. So he did know that it could be a consequence. He also said that it had happened once before and a former official had waived the fee, but the new person had a policy not too. I forget things at work way too often, and I have missed bills and made other dumb moves. But in the end, you deal with the consequences. He also said he did have insurance and that they were covering up to the limits of what he paid for.

Just thinking about it further, [B]could the insurance company deny his claim based on his failure to pay the fee[/B]?[/quote]

Not unless it's spelled out in the policy somewhere

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=FRPLG;744498]Seriously?[/quote]

Yes seriously. How come the 30%-50% of my income that goes to the government isn't being used to pay for fire service in my area? How come that instead of trying to find out where I am the operator has to verify weather or not I paid a due, which for all I know could have been lost in the mail? Certain things need to be free market and others need to be socialism or whatever you want to call it. Fire service in and of itself should not be run by any free market policies.

[quote=Mattyk;744505]Not unless it's spelled out in the policy somewhere[/quote]

They've already agreed to pay for part of it. The insurance company that is.


[quote=FRPLG;744502]To me it comes down to this. It costs money to run a fire department. Putting out the fire in this case, to me, presents a pretty damn clear endangerment to the funding of the fire department. Blame a dumb policy that allows something like this to happen. Don't blame the fire-fighters and their bosses. [B]They have to keep open for business for the greater good[/B]. Putting out fires for free works against that. It just does. At the end of the the day they chose not to do something that might end up costing them way more than just one fire. I can't fault them for that. Is it more decent to put the fire out and watch everyone else stop paying the fees and therefore have to curtail the service? Not to me it isn't. They had to choose between two crappy choices.[/quote]

How are you going to stay in business when no one feels like they can trust you anymore? Look at all this national exposure. Do you think anyone is going to want to fund these guys after this? They would have been much better off reaching a settlement after the fact like every other subscription service in Tennessee. They sacrificed long term financing for short term gain. Instead of getting a first round pick in two years they decided to take a 7th round pick this year.

[url=http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2010/oct/08/fire-chiefs-we-wont-watch-a-home-burn/]Fire chiefs: We won't watch a home burn » Knoxville News Sentinel[/url]
[quote]Blount County residents who fail to subscribe to fire services for $110 will be presented with a hefty bill after firefighters finish their duties at a house fire.

McClanahan said it amounts to $2,200 for the initial call and $1,100 for every hour past the first two that firefighters are on the scene.

Wheeler said his department has no set fee but does ask the homeowner to assign to the fire department any insurance money designated for compensating the fire department.[/quote]

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

This system might be worse. It's amazing that so many Bengal players have been arrested.
[YT]P8MAsmMLtqs[/YT]

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;744515]Yes seriously. How come the 30%-50% of my income that goes to the government isn't being used to pay for fire service in my area? How come that instead of trying to find out where I am the operator has to verify weather or not I paid a due, which for all I know could have been lost in the mail? Certain things need to be free market and others need to be socialism or whatever you want to call it. Fire service in and of itself should not be run by any free market policies.
[/quote]
No disagreement here. The system sucked. I haven't argued that it doesn't. I am simply pointing out what so many people seem to forget. The fire-fighters operated within the system that was setup. If you want to argue that the $75 subscription fee is dumb I'll completely agree. It shouldn't be left up to individuals to make payments like that. But if you want to argue that standing there watching it burn was somehow "obviously" the wrong choice I can't agree.
[quote]
How are you going to stay in business when no one feels like they can trust you anymore? Look at all this national exposure. Do you think anyone is going to want to fund these guys after this? They would have been much better off reaching a settlement after the fact like every other subscription service in Tennessee. They sacrificed long term financing for short term gain. Instead of getting a first round pick in two years they decided to take a 7th round pick this year.[/quote]

This is also true. it is also 100% hindsight.

All I want to argue is that what they did that day was try and make the best decision they could giving the crappy choices. Don't fault them for that.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Mattyk;744401]Hard to believe this is even a debate.[/quote]


Couldn't agree with you more:food-smil

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=FRPLG;744539]

This is also true. it is also 100% hindsight.

All I want to argue is that what they did that day was try and make the best decision they could giving the crappy choices. Don't fault them for that.[/quote]

I guess we're not to different there. I don't blame the firefighters themselves, rather I blame the city officials who enacted such a policy and the fire chief who had the power to prevent his men from doing anything. Ironically if I was a firefighter in that fire department I would have tried to put out the fire, especially with so many witnesses there. Best case scenario the fire gets put out. Worst case I get punched on national TV which results in job offers pouring in from around the country due to the fact that I tried to protect the honor of firefighters everywhere and the subscription system of South Fulton still gets the same amount of media coverage.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

If you guys won't I will blame the firefighters...they're an accessory to the house burning down. Sometimes you have to ignore orders and they choose not to. Fck'em.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;744519]This system might be worse. It's amazing that so many Bengal players have been arrested.
[YT]P8MAsmMLtqs[/YT][/quote]

i called 911 from my cell phone on I-95 this summer, it rang and rang until i got the exact "please hold, your call is important to us, an operator will be with you shortly". after holding for a while, and i mean a while, i hung up. a min or so later they called me back. lol

this was about 4-5 pm sunday, not friday or saturday night at 1 am. not sure how many 911 calls they get at that time but i was shocked they were overflooded with calls on a sunday afternoon.

Re: Firefighters Let Home Burn Over Unpaid Fee
 

[quote=saden1;744641]If you guys won't I will blame the firefighters...they're an accessory to the house burning down. Sometimes you have to ignore orders and they choose not to. Fck'em.[/quote]

The more I thought about this I agree with you. How the hell can you just watch someones house burn down. I still think there is more to this story and I'd love to see a time line of how this whole thing went down.