Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinster;801935]From what I'm reading, McIntosh, Moss, and Brown all aren't going to be with the team much longer. Fletcher is getting up there in years, we already seem to have many patch up players starting. The most important of which is qb. Things just aren't looking so good for us right now. I don't think we really have a shot at the playoffs no matter what we do, but do you guys think that even knowing that it is best to buy a bunch of free agents to be as competitive as possible this year, or just let our young guys get some experience?[/quote]

Moss and Fletch deserve to go to a contenders so I see no reason why either would come back here. Rocky doesn't fit a 3-4 at all so bye bye. I guess I'd bring Brown back cause there's no one else. As far as free agents I'd pass this year and let all the young guys get on the field and get game experience.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;802121]Ines Sainz is standing at the city gate buck naked?[/quote]

:rofl:

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Jontrem;802122]The city is the one they are starting from?[/quote]

no, it's a "distant city"

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;802121]Ines Sainz is standing at the city gate buck naked?[/quote]

If so, where does the line start for that?

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;802118]Can you imagine 2 or 3 teams playing to lose, might get some all time NFL Folly clips.

on a side note, for some reason I am reminded of this puzzle:

An Arab sheikh tells his two sons to race their camels to a distant city to see who will inherit his fortune. The one whose camel is slower will win.

The brothers, after wandering aimlessly for days, ask a wise man for advise. After hearing the advice they jump on the camels and race as fast as they can to the city. What does the wise man say?[/quote]

With the 1st pick in the draft...there's been a trade!

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;802057]What a great sales pitch though

"Hey Santana, we'd love to re-sign you. We think you'd be great for the team...as we attempt to tank the season in order to maybe, possibly get Luck. You down?!"[/quote]

That is what i was thinking how do u convince a true competitor to drop a TD pass, fumble the ball, miss that block & etc. Their contracts have incentives on them too nice try skinster but it's not happening buddy.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;802129]With the 1st pick in the draft...there's been a trade![/quote]

LOL Exactly!

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;801996]Moss has said he hopes to come back.

Sorry but rooting for 0-16 = retarded.[/quote]

If you say you hope we suck this year, thats not a true fan imo

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

Better yet the Redskins tank the season draft Luck hooray. 1st play of his NFL career Rabach misses his block and a LB unloads on him. Monday's press conference Luck has suffered a career ending injury. There goes skinster's can't miss prospect missing the rest of his career. Or we tank the season and Luck suffers a serious injury the Rose Bowl and can't play football then what sir?

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Redskin Warrior;802140]Better yet the Redskins tank the season draft Luck hooray. 1st play of his NFL career Rabach misses his block and a LB unloads on him. Monday's press conference Luck has suffered a career ending injury. There goes skinster's can't miss prospect missing the rest of his career. Or we tank the season and Luck suffers a serious injury the Rose Bowl and can't play football then what sir?[/quote]

This

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

Should we plan on tanking a season for Barry Sanders Jr?

Re: What did the wise man say?
 

Ride each other's camels.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

Let's just tank 5 seasons in a row and build up a hell of a roster with all the top picks we'll have! Watch out NFL in about 10 years!

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

We're not going to tank the season so we'll lighten the load and take a look at what really happened this week in history.

[url=http://www.biography.com/video.do?name=thisweekinvideo]This Week in Video - Biography.com[/url]

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;802151]Let's just tank 5 seasons in a row and build up a hell of a roster with all the top picks we'll have! Watch out NFL in about 10 years![/quote]

We just tried that. It didn't work like we had hoped.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Lotus;802102]Let's look at GreekSkin's fine question, albeit reformulated: how many of the last few Super Bowl winners found their QB at #1? Answer: None.

History does not back you up, Skinster, as you claim.[/quote]

Here are some statistics to add to this.

Drafted #1 Superbowl Winners

1970 (Steelers) -- Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech
1983 (Colts) -- John Elway, Stanford *
1989 (Cowboys) -- Troy Aikman, UCLA
1993 (Patriots) -- Drew Bledsoe, Washington State **
1999 (Colts) -- Peyton Manning, Tennessee
2004 (Chargers) -- Eli Manning, Mississippi *

*Drafted #1 and then traded.
** Lost starting job due to injury.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=drew54;802182]Here are some statistics to add to this.

Drafted #1 Superbowl Winners

1970 (Steelers) -- Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech
1983 (Colts) -- John Elway, Stanford *
1989 (Cowboys) -- Troy Aikman, UCLA
1993 (Patriots) -- Drew Bledsoe, Washington State **
1999 (Colts) -- Peyton Manning, Tennessee
2004 (Chargers) -- Eli Manning, Mississippi *

*Drafted #1 and then traded.
** Lost starting job due to injury.[/quote]

Good job Drew. So about 1.5 years a decade see a #1 QB win a Super Bowl.

QED 8.5 years out of 10 see Super Bowls won by QB's taken later.

History is NOT on the side of the "Suck to get Luck" argument.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=drew54;802182]Here are some statistics to add to this.

Drafted #1 Superbowl Winners

1970 (Steelers) -- Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech
1983 (Colts) -- John Elway, Stanford *
1989 (Cowboys) -- Troy Aikman, UCLA
1993 (Patriots) -- Drew Bledsoe, Washington State **
1999 (Colts) -- Peyton Manning, Tennessee
2004 (Chargers) -- Eli Manning, Mississippi *

*Drafted #1 and then traded.
** Lost starting job due to injury.[/quote]

Drew Bledsoe should not count. He was not the starter during the SB year and it wasn't until he got hurt that Brady came in and the team started winning. They started the season 0-3 or something like that under Blesdoe and he was not playing well.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;802151]Let's just tank 5 seasons in a row and build up a hell of a roster with all the top picks we'll have! Watch out NFL in about 10 years![/quote]

And make sure that all of our starters are under the age of 25. LOL.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

Isn't it a little early to claim that Luck will go #1? He could have a horrible season, he could get injured, he could pull a "Locker." it might turn out his success came from having Harbaugh as his head coach, anything could happen. We do need a qb but its obvious from previous SB winners it doesn't have to be a can't miss prospect.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=drew54;802182]Here are some statistics to add to this.

Drafted #1 Superbowl Winners

1970 (Steelers) -- Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech
1983 (Colts) -- John Elway, Stanford *
1989 (Cowboys) -- Troy Aikman, UCLA
1993 (Patriots) -- Drew Bledsoe, Washington State **
1999 (Colts) -- Peyton Manning, Tennessee
2004 (Chargers) -- Eli Manning, Mississippi *

*Drafted #1 and then traded.
** Lost starting job due to injury.[/quote]

what was it you said about history supporting you skinster???

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;802151]Let's just tank 5 seasons in a row and build up a hell of a roster with all the top picks we'll have! Watch out NFL in about 10 years![/quote]

No one is saying that we should suck for that long. But playing all young guys and sucking for a year with a chance to land Luck isn't going to hurt. We've won how many games the last two years playing older guys??? The Rams getting Bradford just gave their pathetic franchise hope for the next 12 years.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=mooby;802204]Isn't it a little early to claim that Luck will go #1? He could have a horrible season, he could get injured, he could pull a "Locker." it might turn out his success came from having Harbaugh as his head coach, anything could happen. We do need a qb but its obvious from previous SB winners it doesn't have to be a can't miss prospect.[/quote]

Nope, Skinster said he goes 1, so number 1 it is. You need to remember he cares smarter that everybody.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802207]No one is saying that we should suck for that long. But playing all young guys and sucking for a year with a chance to land Luck isn't going to hurt. We've won how many games the last two years playing older guys??? The Rams getting Bradford just gave their pathetic franchise hope for the next 12 years.[/quote]

There's a big difference between playing your young team and suffering for a year should they not perform well and outright rooting for the team to suck so you can get the #1 overall pick. We're not going to field a team of rookies this year, you still need to get a few veteran FAs to plug some holes in the team.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Ruhskins;802210]There's a big difference between playing your young team and suffering for a year should they not perform well and outright rooting for the team to suck so you can get the #1 overall pick. We're not going to field a team of rookies this year, you still need to get a few veteran FAs to plug some holes in the team.[/quote]

I really don't care how many games we win next year cause this is not a playoff team. It's a REBUILDING JOB! What's the difference between 4-6 wins? Nothing. I'd rather just win 2 and better the draft position. I want a lot of young guys out there, not London Fletcher, Santana Moss, Casey Rabach and Jamal Brown.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802219]I really don't care how many games we win next year cause this is not a playoff team. It's a REBUILDING JOB! What's the difference between 4-6 wins? Nothing. I'd rather just win 2 and better the draft position. I want a lot of young guys out there, not London Fletcher, Santana Moss, Casey Rabach and Jamal Brown.[/quote]

Well, here's a question for you, assuming the schedule is played as written:
are you rooting for the Skins to win week 1, to beat the Giants, OR are you rooting for the Giants, so that we keep our shot at getting Luck alive.

Anyone who could conceivably root for the Giants is not a smarter fan that i am. Sorry, that just ain't.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802219]I really don't care how many games we win next year cause this is not a playoff team. It's a REBUILDING JOB! What's the difference between 4-6 wins? Nothing. I'd rather just win 2 and better the draft position. I want a lot of young guys out there, not London Fletcher, Santana Moss, Casey Rabach and Jamal Brown.[/quote]

Orakpo might create a couple of wins. To realize your dream, we'll have to cut him.

TWilliams might create a couple of wins. To realize your dream, we'll have to cut him.

Cutting Rak and Trent sure sounds smart to me. :(

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;802222]Well, here's a question for you, assuming the schedule is played as written:
are you rooting for the Skins to win week 1, to beat the Giants, OR are you rooting for the Giants, so that we keep our shot at getting Luck alive.

Anyone who could conceivably root for the Giants is not a smarter fan that i am. Sorry, that just ain't.[/quote]

well as always i will root for washington. but i've grown real tired of this team not having a plan. right now it's starting to look like we have one. but that plan may take a few years and i'm ok with that as long as they stay committed to it. that may mean a few tough years. no more quick fix mgt. style.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802240]well as always i will root for washington. but i've grown real tired of this team not having a plan. right now it's starting to look like we have one. but that plan may take a few years and i'm ok with that as long as they stay committed to it. that may mean a few tough years. no more quick fix mgt. style.[/quote]

Right, and I think most of us agree, but skinster was saying he wants us to go 0fer, or maybe win 1, simply to get Andrew Luck. That is his plan. And truthfully that might have been Cerrato's plan with Zorn, and JZ screwed it up by winning 8 games his first year.

No fan of a team wants their team to draft number 1 the following year, before one game has been played in the season. It just can't be. Especially when you just brought in 12 potential solid rookies that we want to see add quality, not learn that losing is acceptable if "your guy" is high on the draft boards...

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802240]well as always i will root for washington. but i've grown real tired of this team not having a plan. right now it's starting to look like we have one. but that plan may take a few years and i'm ok with that as long as they stay committed to it. that may mean a few tough years. no more quick fix mgt. style.[/quote]

than what are we really discussing? I don't think anyone doubts that. I think what people doubt is what skinster is saying. Basically abandon all plans, and just suck for the sole purpose of drafting Andrew Luck. Our team has gotten much younger and is already in a rebuilding process, what needs to happen now is for them to understand that winning is the ultimate goal, that competing is the name of the game, and that no matter what you never stop working. What kind of message would it send if our goal was to suck so we can draft luck.

I really think some people are mixing up 'work now, be better later' with 'suck now, be better later'.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Mattyk;802151]Let's just tank 5 seasons in a row and build up a hell of a roster with all the top picks we'll have! Watch out NFL in about 10 years![/quote]

Bruce Allen says he does not believe in rebuilding. When the question was put to him, this is what he had to say [quote]

"I don't know what rebuild is. I think there's an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we're gonna be given this year, we've got to compete. I don't think it's fair to a veteran player to say that we're gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try and win every game we play, and that's what our organization is gonna focus on." [unquote]

The quote further dispells that notion of not wanting to win each and every game regardless of what may happen in the future.

[url=http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/10/2163535/to-rebuild-or-not-to-rebuild-the-dumbest-question-ever-asked-at]To Rebuild or Not to Rebuild: The Dumbest Question Ever Asked At Redskins Park - Hogs Haven[/url]

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=drew54;802182]Here are some statistics to add to this.

Drafted #1 Superbowl Winners

1970 (Steelers) -- Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech
[B]1983 (Colts) -- John Elway, Stanford *[/B]
1989 (Cowboys) -- Troy Aikman, UCLA
1993 (Patriots) -- Drew Bledsoe, Washington State **
[B]1999 (Colts) -- Peyton Manning, Tennessee[/B]
2004 (Chargers) -- Eli Manning, Mississippi *

*Drafted #1 and then traded.
** Lost starting job due to injury.[/quote]I understand what skinster is trying to say, I agree with the broad premise (play youth, gain experience and better draft position for a run later), but I could [B]never[/B] root for the Skins to lose or tank the season even it it was in their best interest long term. As others have said, too many variables that could derail the strategy, plus it's just wrong.

That all being said, Luck has the talent to be a multiple Pro Bowl level player who can carry a mediocre team to the playoffs and take a solid team to multiple SBs. That type of QB, that you can identify coming out of the NCAA, only comes along once every 11-13 years or so.

Luck - 2012
Manning - 1999
Elway - 1983
Bradshaw - 1970 (although I give more credit to the Steelers D and running game)
Len Dawson - 1957 (drafted 5th overall)
Otto Graham - 1948 (drafted 4th overall)
Sammy Baugh - 1937 (drafted 6th overall)

Are there other players drafted later who reached this level, absolutely. But Luck is a can't miss franchise QB as long as he doesn't go to a "turrible" and mismanaged team (Cincy/Oakland).

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

I agree with the youth movement. The best way to get (most) players and positions settled is to let them play. There has to be a certain amount of leadership and mentoring that happens with the vets. Film study, work ethic, smarts, etc should be instilled in the young guns, but give them significant playing time. Design more plays for the young guys, etc.

If given two scenarios:
Scenario A. 2011: 9-7 2012: 9-7
Scenario B. 2011: 5-11 2012: 13-3

Same number of games won over a two year period, but one looks significantly better than the other. Do what we need to do now to get a young base, then grow from there. We've tried this semi-rebuilding bullshit before and it has us where we are now. Lets bust it down, get rid of the mentality around Redskins park and start fresh.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;802262]

Luck - 2012[B]/2013? [/B]
Manning - 1999
Elway - 1983
Bradshaw - 1970 (although I give more credit to the Steelers D and running game)
Len Dawson - 1957 (drafted 5th overall)
Otto Graham - 1948 (drafted 4th overall)
Sammy Baugh - 1937 (drafted 6th overall)

[/quote]

Fixed

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

@ Slingin Sammy

You forgot to add Sam Bradford to that list, I think Sam is better than Luck and will be for their entire careers just watch. He took a horrible Rams team from 1-15 to 7-9 I mean can Luck do that? I doubt it.

As a Freshman at OU Sam had 36 Tds to 8 Int's, in his second year he helped set a College football record for most points scored for a team in a season. 50 Td passes to 8 Ints. He could have won back to back Heismans if he didn't get hurt in his JR season. He is as often compared to Peyton Manning which says a lot obviously. Luck had a damn good season last year but let's see what he does this season before we jump the gun

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Longtimefan;802260]Bruce Allen says he does not believe in rebuilding. When the question was put to him, this is what he had to say [quote]

"I don't know what rebuild is. I think there's an opportunity each week to do well in the NFL. Last year we had a chance to do better, we had a chance to do worse than our 6-10 record. And every opportunity that we're gonna be given this year, we've got to compete. I don't think it's fair to a veteran player to say that we're gonna worry about 2014 instead of 2011. London Fletcher deserves the opportunity to try and win every game we play, and that's what our organization is gonna focus on." [unquote]

The quote further dispells that notion of not wanting to win each and every game regardless of what may happen in the future.

[URL="http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/10/2163535/to-rebuild-or-not-to-rebuild-the-dumbest-question-ever-asked-at"]To Rebuild or Not to Rebuild: The Dumbest Question Ever Asked At Redskins Park - Hogs Haven[/URL][/quote]

this is a rebuild, even though allen doesn't want to say it, he's certainly thinking it.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=Daseal;802263]I agree with the youth movement. The best way to get (most) players and positions settled is to let them play. There has to be a certain amount of leadership and mentoring that happens with the vets. Film study, work ethic, smarts, etc should be instilled in the young guns, but give them significant playing time. Design more plays for the young guys, etc.

If given two scenarios:
Scenario A. 2011: 9-7 2012: 9-7
Scenario B. 2011: 5-11 2012: 13-3

Same number of games won over a two year period, but one looks significantly better than the other. Do what we need to do now to get a young base, then grow from there. We've tried this semi-rebuilding bullshit before and it has us where we are now. Lets bust it down, get rid of the mentality around Redskins park and start fresh.[/quote]

I think most fans would take B.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfan69;802274][quote=Longtimefan;802260]Bruce Allen says he does not believe in rebuilding. When the question was put to him, this is what he had to say

this is a rebuild, even though allen doesn't want to say it, he's certainly thinking it.[/quote]

Rebuild is not a good sell so perhaps he prefers to use a different term. It would be difficult to judge what we're doing now as anything but that.

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;802267]@ Slingin Sammy

You forgot to add Sam Bradford to that list, I think Sam is better than Luck and will be for their entire careers just watch. He took a horrible Rams team from 1-15 to 7-9 I mean can Luck do that? I doubt it.[/quote]I didn't forget Bradford. I don't see him as a multiple Pro Bowl QB that elavates his team. Do I see him growing into a solid starter, yes.

Bradford didn't "take" STL to 7-9. The improved defense and weak schedule did that. The Rams were 26th in scoring Off and 12th is scoring D. Bradford's QB rate was only 76.5. Who did the Rams beat; Skins, SEA, SD, CAR, DEN, AZ, SF. One playoff team, who went at 7-9.

I know you're a Bradford homer, and that's OK. I'm a ND fan who still supports Clausen. We'll come back to this thread in a 2-3 years. :food-smil

Re: rebuilding or FA frenzy?
 

Bradford did a great job last year but I didn't see him as a guy that necessarily elevated the team or carried them either. They were pretty conservative with him and didn't ask him to do much, smartly so. Could he end up being a star gunslinger that can carry a team? Sure, but last year he was more of a game manager and I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I thought the Rams handled him very well.