Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

I think Don Banks summed it up well. The players need to stop acting so damn paranoid and thinking the owners are trying to screw them over, and the owners need to realize that the players do no react well when they think they are being backed into a corner.

It all comes down to a lack of trust between both sides. It's a tough thing to build back up once it's broken down.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;812026]As I understand it, one major sticking point is the out clause. I don't know who's right here, but players expected the deal would have an out at 7 years; owners didn't include it.

Were the players right to expect it? I'm not sure

But overall, it's a misconception that the players were completely blind to the proposal. It's that the full proposal was just drafted yesterday or the day before, and it takes some time to digest every detail. And again, they should. Brown M & Ms.
[B]
Further, Goodell holding a press conference (and other owners talking about it as well), basically saying they have an agreement before the full proposal was sent to the players rubbed the players the wrong way. They felt it put PR pressure on them, and was an attempt to make them look like the bad guys[/B][/quote]

It was...they need to get over it. Both sides have done enough to try and make the other side look bad. You'd think they'd all be inoculated against it by now.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;812015]Yes. Take the time to make an informed decision. However, - don't wait until the last minute to become informed about 3 months of negotiations.[/quote]I should point out that it's not clear where the blame for this shortfall lies. NFL litigating team, NFLPA litigating team, and Judge Boylan probably all share in the blame for these last minute tactics.

I do know that the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't happen has to sit mostly with the NFLPA, because that's pretty much their job description.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/22/mawae-says-nflpa-will-consider-proposal-today/]Mawae says NFLPA* will consider proposal today | ProFootballTalk[/url]

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=GTripp0012;812030]I should point out that it's not clear where the blame for this shortfall lies. NFL litigating team, NFLPA litigating team, and Judge Boylan probably all share in the blame for these last minute tactics.

I do know that the responsibility to ensure that it doesn't happen has to sit mostly with the NFLPA, because that's pretty much their job description.[/quote]

Who says there is a shortfall? You?
This is a negotiations and there is no time frame. As most everyone recalls we lost a good portion of the regular season the last two times they negotiated a CBA deal. That we are this close in July is great.
That the owners and the media released a schedule saying the NFL would open doors this weekend or Monday with out both sides having signed off on the agreement was irresponsible.
That some of the fans and media are upset that we might not make the pretend Monday opening date is a joke.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

1- there is a reason why there are representatives.
2- why does it not take longer for the owners to look over the proposal?

There are 32 reps just like owners. The reps are in place to make decisions for the players of their teams. And there already should have been a decision made that if the reps thought the deal was fair then they could agree to it. But first is first the players should have had a plan on how to agree to become a union again especially when things started looking like it was coming to an end. Maybe they were out partying too much and not enough trying to understand the material as it was being formed and a plan for how to talk to the players for a reformation.

I think the players lawyers were too busy trying to figure out how to derail the system or shaft the process vs planning how to reform and get all the players involved.

It just seems the players were I'll prepared all around. Maybe if they needed all 1900+ players opinions on the matter they should have found a venue where all the players could show up instead of just the reps and should have gone over the material and voted on whether to reform and then gotten their "Union Cards" and voted on the CBA.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Well they are reviewing the proposal and hopefully voting on it. I think the players have the right to read on what they are signing up for and if that was just completing then they must be given time. Each side has been trying to outdo the other in some way, shape, or form. In the end, the delays hurts the players more, so I don't get any outright accusations against the players.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Defensewins;812032]Who says there is a shortfall? You?
This is a negotiations and there is no time frame. As most everyone recalls we lost a good portion of the regular season the last two times they negotiated a CBA deal. That we are this close in July is great.
That the owners and the media released a schedule saying the NFL would open doors this weekend or Monday with out both sides having signed off on the agreement was irresponsible.
That some of the fans and media are upset that we might not make the pretend Monday opening date is a joke.[/quote]The hall of fame game was scheduled. It is now cancelled. This is a shortfall that is as plain as day.

I think the owners gave the players plenty of time (until Tuesday) to approve this agreement, so it should not come as a surprise to anyone that the players are going to use some of that time to become more informed. Realistically speaking, nothing will be lost between now and Tuesday. Timetables will be pushed back, life will go on unimpeded.

Given how unimportant today is in the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure what added "pressure" the players feel under to get this done now as opposed to Monday. If they're talking about [I]public[/I] pressures, I have little sympathy. They could have stayed on top of this and push the pressure back on the owners to meet them half way. If they're talking about [I]legal[/I] pressures and what's at stake for them to make a quick, uninformed decision: well, nothing. They can pretty much just waste today doing nothing and they can wake up tomorrow, take recommendations, and make a vote.

I agree with your premise: being at this point in July is well ahead of schedule. Both sides just messed up royally on the procedural issues, and it cost them a nationally televised preseason game.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;812031][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/22/mawae-says-nflpa-will-consider-proposal-today/]Mawae says NFLPA* will consider proposal today | ProFootballTalk[/url][/quote]

I'm beginning to think the players don't know what the issues are. Each time we hear from a rep it's something different. Did the players get a different proposal with different material inside? Do they not have the power to vote for the better of the whole? Where they not being kept informed of the negotiations and it's content?

The owners had the same issues but wee able to agree on the proposal. There were 32 owners and 32 reps all supposed to decide on the proposal. Not 1900+ players. That's why they are called reps.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SBXVII;812033]1- there is a reason why there are representatives.
2- why does it not take longer for the owners to look over the proposal?

There are 32 reps just like owners. The reps are in place to make decisions for the players of their teams. And there already should have been a decision made that if the reps thought the deal was fair then they could agree to it. But first is first the players should have had a plan on how to agree to become a union again especially when things started looking like it was coming to an end. Maybe they were out partying too much and not enough trying to understand the material as it was being formed and a plan for how to talk to the players for a reformation.

I think the players lawyers were too busy trying to figure out how to derail the system or shaft the process vs planning how to reform and get all the players involved.

It just seems the players were I'll prepared all around. Maybe if they needed all 1900+ players opinions on the matter they should have found a venue where all the players could show up instead of just the reps and should have gone over the material and voted on whether to reform and then gotten their "Union Cards" and voted on the CBA.[/quote]

They only need a simple majority vote to approve this CBA deal. Not every player will or has to agree to it.
I think what is not being discussed in this thread is the owners got what they wanted in this proposal. They got the majority of the revenue split. The rest is gravy. So of course the players are having to wrap their heads around this loss and trying to incorporate a 7 year out clause. The owners that won the revenue split will resist it. If incorporating the 7 year out clause is a deal breaker for both sides then we will have more delay and negotiations.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SBXVII;812036]I'm beginning to think the players don't know what the issues are. Each time we hear from a rep it's something different. Did the players get a different proposal with different material inside? Do they not have the power to vote for the better of the whole? Where they not being kept informed of the negotiations and it's content?

The owners had the same issues but wee able to agree on the proposal. There were 32 owners and 32 reps all supposed to decide on the proposal. Not 1900+ players. That's why they are called reps.[/quote]

I'm sure it is harder to rail in 1900+ people and inform them of the issue than 32 owners. I'm sure things will get done over the weekend though, and the media just needs to let this work itself out. Also, the player reps need to get their act together and the players in general just need to stop going to twitter.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SmootSmack;811934]But people seem to be confusing not accepting with rejecting. It's two very different things[/quote]

VERY true - - and the likelihood is that players would "not accept" the deal in front of them as opposed to rejecting it in its entirety if they do not ratify.


The players's side has a lot of work to do and a lot of communication to carry out in the next day or so, but at this moment, the ball is in their court.


IF they do not ratify, it will be incumbent on them to explain very clearly what parts of the deal are still in need of negotiation and what other parts of the deal are perfectly OK.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Players need to get off twitter and come together and create the dialogue to get this done. Not overly impressed by either side and its lax approach to let this seem like a soap opera at the end. Stay away from the media and the social networks and just get it done. kinda weak

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=NC_Skins;811981]The NFL PR machine is almost as good as the GOP/DEM PR machine. They agree to a deal THEY come up with, and act as if was something the players also agreed on and that they are the ones holding this up. The worst part is, people believe it...lol I guess that's why people keep voting in the same cats that continue to feed them bullshit at election time as well. /facepalm



What the **** is up with Al Davis? Hasn't this douchebag voted against each CBA agreement that has come up? Abstaining? Why can't the NFL just revoke the guys franchise from him much like MLB has done with the McCourts?[/quote]



In fact, Davis approved the previous deal and back in the late 90s or early 00s, Davis was part of a contingent of owners who went to Gene Upshaw to convince him to make what was supposed to be a 3-year deal into a 5-year deal.


Now, if you want make the case that Al Davis has lost more than a bit off his fastball and is probably not the swiftest deer in the forest, be my guest. But he has not been a CBA stumbling block in the past.


For the record, two owners voted against the last CBA when it was presented to them - - the CBA that the league later voted to opt out of. Those were Ralph Wilson (Bills) and Mike Brown (Benglas).

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

so lets get this straight - the owners didnt add any last minute changes to the CBA as the players alleged - the players just were not fully aware of all the terms that D Smith had negotiated in their behalf. To me, it looks like the players should have kept their mouths shut. They all look like idiots for accusing the NFL of doing something sneaky, when in fact, they should be upset at D Smith, if anyone for not making them fully aware of the terms prior to last night.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Again, and to the very end, plenty of blame all around. NFLPA should have kept players better informed and prepped them over this last week, players should have made sure they were up on the substance of the negotiations, and the Owners should not have gone to the national media and proclaimed "We Have A Deal!!!"

At the end of the day, it will be all worked out with maybe a tweak or two. We may lose a week of training camp or even a preseason game, but, bottom line, there will be football come September.

And, come September, our Skins will probably be mediocre regardless of exactly when the two sides agree. <sigh>

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Interesting tidbit from Schefter:

"NFL gameday rosters will expand this season from 45 to 46 players, with the No. 3 quarterback no longer counting as an inactive player."

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;812049]Again, and to the very end, plenty of blame all around. NFLPA should have kept players better informed and prepped them over this last week, players should have made sure they were up on the substance of the negotiations, and the Owners should not have gone to the national media and proclaimed "We Have A Deal!!!"

At the end of the day, it will be all worked out with maybe a tweak or two. We may lose a week of training camp or even a preseason game, but, bottom line, there will be football come September.

[B]And, come September, our Skins will probably be mediocre regardless of exactly when the two sides agree.[/B] <sigh>[/quote]


Exactly how i feel as well. If i was a GB fan or who ever is good I be lets get this done so we can watch some good football but knowing this going to be a long year for the Skins hard to get to excited about anything.

I have not felt this under whelmed about a upcoming skins like this one in quit sometime. sigh.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

I am as confused as many here. If the owners have agreed to end the lockout, but the players wont come back, Can the Owners now use replacement players until the players all agree to come back?

How it looks to me is that everything is ironed out except the issues of the players playing. Why not use replacements short-term to at least get a team on the field and generate revenue??

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

They can't be worse than last year.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Oooppps!

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Who-Dey-Bengals-send-e-mail-to-season-ticket-ho?urn=nfl-wp3697]Who Dey? Bengals send email to season ticket holders saying that new CBA is done - Shutdown Corner - NFL Blog - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=saden1;812060]They can't be worse than last year.[/quote]

That sounds like a challenge!!!

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Defensewins;812061]Oooppps!

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Who-Dey-Bengals-send-e-mail-to-season-ticket-ho?urn=nfl-wp3697]Who Dey? Bengals send email to season ticket holders saying that new CBA is done - Shutdown Corner - NFL*Blog - Yahoo! Sports[/url][/quote]

They forgot to add:

PS: We will continue to hold Carson Palmer on our team, even though he is disgruntled and could easily earn us a couple of picks in next year's draft.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;812056]I am as confused as many here. If the owners have agreed to end the lockout, but the players wont come back, Can the Owners now use replacement players until the players all agree to come back?

How it looks to me is that everything is ironed out except the issues of the players playing. Why not use replacements short-term to at least get a team on the field and generate revenue??[/quote]

That's jumping the gun just a bit. The owners have agreed to end the lockout... pending the players agreeing to the deal, which they haven't yet.

Not everything is ironed out yet. The owners basically approved their own proposal, now the players have to agree to it. And once the union forms again there are some issues that still have to be hashed out.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Boy did vonnie holliday embarrass the shit out of himself. What an idiot. I hope the rest of the player reps aren't as idiotic and uninformed as he is, for the players sakes...........

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mechanix544;812065]Boy did vonnie holliday embarrass the shit out of himself. What an idiot. I hope the rest of the player reps aren't as idiotic and uninformed as he is, for the players sakes...........[/quote]

How exactly did he embarrass himself? Has anything he said (which he said on ESPN 980 and NFL Radio this morning he was making a play on words from Malcolm X having fun with his followers) that has been refuted? The owners ratified a SETTLEMENT PROPOSAL not an agreement. They changed some of the terms and language in the previous proposal. Would you buy a house without seeing it, walking every room and flipping a light switch?

Fans are taking-and making-this WAY too personally. Yes it's frustrating, yes it's annoying, yes it's all largely foolishness but the bottom line is we will have free agency soon, camp within 2 weeks and a full preseason and regular season.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Paintrain;812067]How exactly did he embarrass himself? Has anything he said (which he said on ESPN 980 and NFL Radio this morning he was making a play on words from Malcolm X having fun with his followers) that has been refuted? The owners ratified a SETTLEMENT PROPOSAL not an agreement. They changed some of the terms and language in the previous proposal. Would you buy a house without seeing it, walking every room and flipping a light switch?

Fans are taking-and making-this WAY too personally. Yes it's frustrating, yes it's annoying, yes it's all largely foolishness but the bottom line is we will have free agency soon, camp within 2 weeks and a full preseason and regular season.[/quote]

Agreed.

Man, the callers on NFL radio today are just clueless. People are acting like a deal was struck and the players are simply refusing to go along with it now.

I heard VH on the radio today talking very calmly and intelligently about the issues. One thing he's not is an idiot.

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[quote=Mattyk;812069]Agreed.

Man, the callers on NFL radio today are just clueless. People are acting like a deal was struck and the players are simply refusing to go along with it now.

I heard VH on the radio today talking very calmly and intelligently about the issues. One thing he's not is an idiot.[/quote]

Doesn't mean Joe the Plumber isn't one... :Flush:

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;812069]Agreed.

Man, the callers on NFL radio today are just clueless. People are acting like a deal was struck and the players are simply refusing to go along with it now.

I heard VH on the radio today talking very calmly and intelligently about the issues. One thing he's not is an idiot.[/quote]

I'm sure there are some idiots that thought that all that had to happen was both sides to agree and it was done. I think the informed fan would know that a proposal is just that a proposal. After both sides agree to the proposal then it goes to the lawyers to be legally written and then sent out to be reviewed yet again and then ratified. But .... if both sides agree to the proposal which is the basic ideas then the lockout can be lifted and players can get signed and practices started. The whole while time the final copy is being drawn up to be signed.

The owners want to deal with 1 entity not 1900+. It's all a game. Expensive one but a game. If the players want to play then they have to agree to the proposal, if they want to agree to the proposal then they have to reunite as one entity. There is no reason for the owners to take on all the risk by lifting the lockout, allowing the players to arrive, then peruse the proposal, then vote on becoming a union again, and then voting on the proposal. The players are taking no risk and what if they decide they don't want to become a union again? There are some who don't want it. Then the owners have opened the door for each player to file a suit against them.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=Mattyk;812069]Agreed.

Man, the callers on NFL radio today are just clueless. People are acting like a deal was struck and the players are simply refusing to go along with it now.

I heard VH on the radio today talking very calmly and intelligently about the issues. One thing he's not is an idiot.[/quote]


Very true.

VH is a well-educated, well-read and articulate man. The Redskins' players ought to chip into a fund to buy this guy a Rolex for the work he has done on their behalf - - and his too to be sure - - over the past year. The Redskins' players have been well-represented.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

This is from just before the owner's most recent proposal yesterday. This is what the NFLPA last saw

[url]http://es.pn/nNutZK[/url]

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SBXVII;812036]I'm beginning to think the players don't know what the issues are. Each time we hear from a rep it's something different. Did the players get a different proposal with different material inside? Do they not have the power to vote for the better of the whole? Where they not being kept informed of the negotiations and it's content?

The owners had the same issues but wee able to agree on the proposal. There were 32 owners and 32 reps all supposed to decide on the proposal. Not 1900+ players. That's why they are called reps.[/quote]


I've done 5 different contracts over my 30 years at work and no 2 are alike.Yep there are 32 reps and they were at the table for their players but it's the players not the reps that decide everything....they must sit down and look it over ,.....everyplayer has a different issue and most of those players will be lucky to play 5 years so the 7 year cluas most likely will go by the roadside.....at the end of the day the players must decide if they can live with this and what is best for all as a whole.....not the individual.

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Im Sorry, but if vonnie holliday was the articulate, deep thinker everyone claims him to be, why is he crying about the proposal on twitter to fans. Malcolm X comment or not, all that aside, that is not the proper forum. Especially when you are in negotiations for billions of dollars. Did he think that would have a positive impact on the players plight? All it did is make him a beacon for reporters, and when asked the hard questions, as in, "What the hell did they slip in the deal at the last moments", all he can reply with is "I cant go over the finer points of the proposal". If you are going to take a stand on twitter or whatever media outlet you decide, do it and dont be wishy washy. Sorry, but vonnie holliday may be more articulate than the average NFL player, but that does not make him smart at all. Dumb move, especially when you can't articulate on the "finer points". He himself said the deal was on the internet, so if it was available to the masses, why cant you point out exactly what was sour with the proposal? Just another case of NFL players trying to act like seasoned lawyers, and epically failing in said process. Laughable.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

Perhaps not a smart move by Holliday, but that doesn't mean he's not smart.

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He's human, he got caught up in the emotions of it all just like most of us did.

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Like I said previously, too many fans are taking and making this personal.

Re: Twitter burns as Owners ratify
 

[quote=SBXVII;812073]I'm sure there are some idiots that thought that all that had to happen was both sides to agree and it was done. I think the informed fan would know that a proposal is just that a proposal. After both sides agree to the proposal then it goes to the lawyers to be legally written and then sent out to be reviewed yet again and then ratified. But .... if both sides agree to the proposal which is the basic ideas then the lockout can be lifted and players can get signed and practices started. The whole while time the final copy is being drawn up to be signed.

The owners want to deal with 1 entity not 1900+. It's all a game. Expensive one but a game. If the players want to play then they have to agree to the proposal, if they want to agree to the proposal then they have to reunite as one entity. There is no reason for the owners to take on all the risk by lifting the lockout, allowing the players to arrive, then peruse the proposal, then vote on becoming a union again, and then voting on the proposal. The players are taking no risk and what if they decide they don't want to become a union again? There are some who don't want it. Then the owners have opened the door for each player to file a suit against them.[/quote]

"Informed" fans are nonexistent compared to the general dumbass couch potatoes most of them are; they are the ones who think that players only play 16 weeks a year and use the rest of the time for vacation. They are clueless that the players actually do go to work for the rest of the week and the successful ones are self-motivated people who sacrifice their own time in the film room, etc.

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[quote=Paintrain;812137]Like I said previously, too many fans are taking and making this personal.[/quote]

I do take it personally...... I spend way to much time and money on this team and the NFL. I say F the players..................... If you dont like it go get a job that pays 65 grand a year in a non air conditioned cubicle and maybe then they will change their minds. I dont care what people say....millions to play a game......sorry i have no sympathy. Sign the contract

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[quote=Paintrain;812137]Like I said previously, too many fans are taking and making this personal.[/quote]

Definitely.

Everyone needs to calm the hell down. There's going to be football this year. Relax.

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[quote=Mattyk;812143]Definitely.

[B]Everyone needs to calm the hell down. There's going to be football this year. Relax.[/B][/quote]

Yes sir! That's the most important thing. While the process may be lengthier and more painful than we wish, the question of losing real games or even the season is now history.