Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=dmek25]i not saying anything negative at all about brunell except for his age.he cant play forever.then who will be our next qback?[/QUOTE]

Let me think....... Campbell

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]That's all Brunell's fault??[/QUOTE]
Of course not. But, if you look at the QBs who win close games (Tom Brady comes to mind), they lead the offense to points late in the game.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]Of course not. But, if you look at the QBs who win close games (Tom Brady comes to mind), they lead the offense to points late in the game.[/QUOTE]

Ok what has Ramsey ever lead us too?

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

To me a qb can't have a good game in a close loss. His rating doesn't mean squat if he can't make the plays at the end to win the game.

As for Ramsey, I don't know about him. Maybe he was just too scarred from the Spurrier years, but if he was going to make it in DC he probably would have done it by now.

I would keep Ramsey off the field for the rest of the season, he can only hurt his trade value now and if he comes off the bench and throws for 350 with 3tds and no picks against anyone then all it does is cast more doubt on Gibbs' decision to go with Brunell.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]Ok what has Ramsey ever lead us too?[/QUOTE]
I'm not calling for Ramsey. I'm just saying that the jury still is out on Brunell. He had a good stretch starting with the fourth quarter of the Dallas game but has been only OK recently (as in 2-6 as a starter in the past eight games). I know it all does not lie with the QB, but winning QBs are winning QBs because of their teams' records.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]I'm not calling for Ramsey. I'm just saying that the jury still is out on Brunell. He had a good stretch starting with the fourth quarter of the Dallas game but has been only OK recently (as in 2-6 as a starter in the past eight games). I know it all does not lie with the QB, but winning QBs are winning QBs because of their teams' records.[/QUOTE]

We all know Brunell is not a Top QB whats ur point?

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]We all know Brunell is not a Top QB whats ur point?[/QUOTE]
Just what I said in my previous post: The jury's still out on him, and we need to consider our options at QB for next season. Brunell is the perfect veteran back-up who Gibbs likes to have around. His record as a starter this year (4-6), regardless of whose fault the close losses are, doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Are you satisfied with a losing team this year?

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

Hey guys... I started this thread not to rehash the old who would be better in leading the redskins Brunell or Ramsey...

That topic i believe has been discussed ad nauseum and there really is no way to come to a conclusion...since we have only seen brunell play and not ramsey...so noone can truely know how ramsey would have done...that is ultimately an opinion...and everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

The purpose though...was to allude to the dillema that the skins now face. Brunell certainly has performed relatively well this year... But he is getting older!

It is a generally established principle that QB's do not hit their primes in their late 30's... So while i am going to root for Brunell to play like peyton manning as long as he is starting for this team...i think it is realistic to ask ourselves what other options we have.

In my mind, whether or not people think Ramsey is better than Brunell is not really the point. The point is...whether he gives us a much better chance to win than Cambell at this point. If Cambell is not going to be ready to be a starting NFL QB next year than even the people who dont particulary like Ramsey might admit that he could have great value to this team next year.

If he fulfills his potential and has a great end of this season, offseason, or preseason, and becomes a viable starting QB and wins the job for next year great!... It will mean he gives us a better chance to win than brunell and brunell can be a wonderful backup.

If Brunell wins the job and gets injured in the season...then we have at least a proven backup QB...(Ramsey went 3-4 last season as a starter...and so far Brunell has gone 5-6)

If Brunell goes the whole season without getting injured...and remains the starter..than hey...at least we had a good insurance policy for the whole year...and Ramsey becomes a free agent...we lose a 3rd/or 4th rounder we could have gotten for Ramsey in a trade this year...but we bought an extra year for Cambell to develop...and hopefully he is ready to take over for Brunell starting in his 3rd year.

In my book those different scenarios point to us needing to retain Ramsey for next year.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

Also... if i may add...i think people really ought to distinguish between who WHO GIVES US THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN. And WHO SHOULD PLAY. The two are usually identical...but they dont neccessarily have to be.

One example that comes to mind is that of the bengals declaring carson Palmer the starter after john Kitna had just had a really good season and brought the team to its first non losing season in a ridiculously long time.

In this instance the bengals did not declare Palmer the starter because he gave them the best chance to win. They declared him the starter because they knew that they had invested a great deal into him...and that before leading the team to winning football he would have to get out his growing pains.

The team held the development of their QB of the future above the desire to win immediately. It is that vision that i believe some people are not taking into account. The skins have been losing for sooooo long that there is enormous pressure to just win now. But what about if playing Ramsey, while not giving us the best immediate chance to win, would have been a case of placing the future of the franchise above the need to win immediately. After all...the only way for a QB to get through his growing pains...is to play on sundays.

This is not to say i am advocating switching to Ramsey now...with 5 games left...while we still have a chance to make the playoffs... However, if we are out of the playoff hunt at some point, then i would be for Gibbs playing Ramsey or Cambell in place of Brunell, thereby sacrificing the best chance to win immediately, in hopes of winning alot more later on... Just some food for thought.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=NFLeurope]Hey guys... I started this thread not to rehash the old who would be better in leading the redskins Brunell or Ramsey....[/QUOTE]

NFLeurope
Neither one is the answer. Campbell is the future, Gibbs is grooming Campbell just like he groomed Rypien. He will not rush Campbell into service and ruin him. I think Campbell will be the starter next year and he may start some games at the end of this year.

Ramsey is not the answer. I have never seen what some of the big Ramsey fans on this sight see in him. To me Ramsey is slow on his feet, slow to get rid of the ball, which in turn makes him take alot of sacks and most importantly Ramsey makes too many critical mistakes. He reminds me of Bledsoe, flashes some good, but overall I do not want a Bledsoe type of QB for the Redskins.
I want someone that senses and can escape the pash rush better than Ramsey. Someone that makes fewer mistakes and is quick to get rid of the ball. Holding the ball as long as Ramsey does is just asking for trouble.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]Just what I said in my previous post: The jury's still out on him, and we need to consider our options at QB for next season. Brunell is the perfect veteran back-up who Gibbs likes to have around. His record as a starter this year (4-6), regardless of whose fault the close losses are, doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Are you satisfied with a losing team this year?[/QUOTE]


Wait! Are you saying that even if it isn't Mark Brunell's fault that we are 5-6 right now, benching him is still the answer? That doesn't make any sense.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Ok, I thought you were talking about this year.

I still don't understand why people are still hung up on last year though.

Brunell has had 1 subpar year out of 13. That's called a fluke in my book. I get the feeling some people are just waiting (hoping?) for him to crash and burn again.[/QUOTE]


Waiting?

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]Ok what has Ramsey ever lead us too?[/QUOTE]


Thats kind of the point here, Ramsey really hasen't been given a chance under Gibbs.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]Just what I said in my previous post: The jury's still out on him, and we need to consider our options at QB for next season. Brunell is the perfect veteran back-up who Gibbs likes to have around. His record as a starter this year (4-6), regardless of whose fault the close losses are, doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Are you satisfied with a losing team this year?[/QUOTE]


Apparently so, no one wants to take into account the inability of the offense under Brunell to salt the game away with nothing more than 1 firstdown late in a game, kind of ironic that the QB everyone inc. Gibbs has so much stock in, are scared to death to possibly put the ball in the air on a high percentage pass play late in the game.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Waiting?[/QUOTE]

So to you he's crashed to last year's level??

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]So to you he's crashed to last year's level??[/QUOTE]


No not at all, but he's not getting the job done either, and that's the bottom line, Brunell was a win now move I think we can both agree on that, well we ain't winning now, so really what's the point of having him here? We gave up a lot to get him between a #2 and 43 mil, but maybe the biggest thing we gave up when Brunell was aquired was the developement of Ramsey.

It's the belief of many that so long as Ramsey is on the bench he's no good because Gibbs has basically said so. Well it's not like Gibbs hasen't been wrong before in his brief tenure this go round, he admitted Betts was much better than he thought when he came back.

He made a big play for Portis and lets face it he defends this guy to no end no matter what happens, and can anyone really say Portis has been anything close to what they thought we were getting?

My belief is Gibbs doesn't neccassarily belive he can't win with Ramsey, or that Ramsey is a lowsey QB, but I do believe he feels he can win with Brunell and that's his choice of prefrence, Gibbs is accountable for Brunell, and Portis, Ramsey is not his guy, Gibbs has almost 100mil tied up between the 2 I believe he is highly motivated to making a success out of both, that's a tough pill to swallow to watch carreer stats go down the drain the second you trade for a player, it doesn't make Gibbs look good, especially when he was in a win now mode.

Matty you know it's no secret on my feelings on this topic, but I do want to win first and fore most, my feeling has been that Ramsey would provide the best opportunity for that now, and defiently the long haul, but's it's pretty obvious we will probably never find out what Ramsey can do until he gets a chance somewhere else, my feeling is to bad for us.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

Brunell continues to be the convenient fall guy.

Someone said it already, he had a 96.8 QB rating last week with no turnovers and we still lost.

It's obvious there are other problems that are contributing to the offensive woes right now, regardless of who is playing QB.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Brunell continues to be the convenient fall guy.

Someone said it already, he had a 96.8 QB rating last week with no turnovers and we still lost.

It's obvious there are other problems that are contributing to the offensive woes right now, regardless of who is playing QB.[/QUOTE]


Like what?

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

Umm maybe dropped passes on 3rd downs, ill-timed penalties when you have the ball at the opponents 31 yard line with a game winning FG in range. You know, stuff like that.

I know Brunell's 96.8 rating contributed mightily to the loss last week, but perhaps there are other things at play here. Just maybe.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Umm maybe dropped passes on 3rd downs, ill-timed penalties when you have the ball at the opponents 31 yard line with a game winning FG in range. You know, stuff like that.

I know Brunell's 96.8 rating contributed mightily to the loss last week, but perhaps there are other things at play here. Just maybe.[/QUOTE]

Matty, maybe if your big ego wasn't in the way you'd see that if Ramsey was playing QB then Royal wouldn't drop passes, Rabach wouldn't blatantly hold opponents, Portis wouldn't fumble, there would be peace in the Middle East, we'd find Osama, we'd know what the hell is really going on on Lost, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead....seriously man, how the hell did you become an administrator?

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]Matty, maybe if your big ego wasn't in the way you'd see that if Ramsey was playing QB then Royal wouldn't drop passes, Rabach wouldn't blatantly hold opponents, Portis wouldn't fumble, there would be peace in the Middle East, we'd find Osama, we'd know what the hell is really going on on Lost, Elvis would be alive and all the impersonators would be dead....seriously man, how the hell did you become an administrator?[/QUOTE]

Obviously me ego is blocking my vision, but damn I sure do love my WARPATH EGO!

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=NFLeurope]I posted the following response in the thread about what personnel we would need next year...but on second thought i guess it doesnt really belong there...so i am creating a separate thread...

Let me know what you guys think:

You know, i figure ill prolly get some reactionary comments for this...but here goes...

I have seen a number of people suggest that we ought to get rid of Ramsey at the end of the season and get whatever we can for him...whether that be a 2nd (unlikely), a 3rd, or a 4th.

Now i just dont agree. I mean if nothing else having a quality back-up is something on which you simply cannot place enough emphasis.

Look at what happend to the Jets this year. They were a playoff team last year...and they didnt really lose too many guys, and even picked up Ty Law. But their QB goes down and look at them now...they may be one of the top candidates to win the Reggie Bush sweepstakes.

Now whether you liked the pick or not...i suppose it is true that we drafted Jason Cambell as our QB of the future. However, none of us know how far along he is in his development. In fact many analysts on draft day...and many guys on this board were saying that he was a project...that he was brought in here to ride the pine and learn for 2 years...and then take over eventually.

So i mean considering we are looking to make a serious run at the playoffs and possibly looking to become a contender next year...I think it would be silly to stake the entire season on Mark Brunells shoulders. Mark Brunell will be 36 and if Cambell is not ready, then the skins really ought to think long and hard before giving up a damn good back-up QB in Ramsey (in my humble opinion starting material) for a measly 4th rounder. They need to at least make sure they get something worthwhile for him...or shouldn't trade him.

Now here is the part i know ill get shit for...

It is my opinion that despite the fact that he has proven to be a good leader and an admirable competitor...and a seemingly good guy...that the Mark Brunell signing has not been a good thing for the redskins. Here is why i think that...

One should not only consider a players performance in deciding whether or not he was a good signing. You also have to consider the cost to benefit ratio. The first example that comes to mind is that of Randy Moss and the Oakland Raiders...

I read an article recently that questionned whether or not Moss was actually helping the raiders or not. The guy is putting up good numbers...but look at his paycheck. While he was out injured...the raiders focused more on their running attack and actually played good winning football while moss was out or not playing a large role in the offense. When he is in the game...his contract necessitates that a certain amount of the offensive plays are based on him...and thus the raiders run less. So while just looking at the guys stats you might say he was a great signing...just consider the huge commitment the raiders have made in taking on his 75 million contract...and the fact that they are still only 4-7. If they hadnt signed him...they could still have a good offense...and could have invested the money his contract eats up...elsewhere.

Now how is this related to Brunell? Well while it seems unfair to criticize Gibbs an Co. for the initial signing now...since hindsight is always 20/20 and they didnt have the luxury of knowing how things would turn out when they signed Brunell. I do believe that it is legitimate to judge a signing based on the results you get vs what you gave up to get those results.

Brunell is getting paid alot. (more than our other 2 QB's i believe). His first season here was a disaster, and now despite vastly improved play on his part...the team still may not make the playoffs.

In addition to the dollar cost of his contract, his signing also led us to waste any viable cotribution that Ramsey MIGHT have been able to make to this team.

Of course no one can tell what would have been if it had been ramsey starting in place of Brunell. However, Ramsey was a first rounder, a big investment for this franchise, and considering that he never was given an opportunity comparable to the oppurtunities that other first rounders normally get...we may never find out whether Ramsey would have turned out to be another Drew Brees...or another bum.

He might have been great. He might have been terrible. Or he might have been mediocre.

But it is the not knowing that constitues a wasted investment...and should in my mind be considered as part of the cost we undertook in signing Brunell.

You can take it even further and suggest that the cost of Brunells contract could have been even more than just 1 wasted first rounder. For IF...and i do say IF Ramsey did prove to be a Viable starter...then we would of course never have drafted Jason Cambell. And so it could even be possible...though noone will ever know...that in addition to the actual dollar investement...Brunell's signing also cost us 2 first rounders (QB investments - Ramsey drafted before his arrival...who we wont know about. Campbell drafted after his first season...precisely because we didnt know about Ramsey, or Brunell- both of whom only played a portion of the season and neither played exceptionally well.)

So in conclusion i would just like to state...that in my opinion the cost to benefit ratio of signing Brunell has not even come close to panning out. You know i mean maybe im wrong...and he will come back and lead us to the playoffs or a superbowl and that would be great. But frankly...at this point...i would really have rathered seen what we had in Ramsey...before going out and getting a guy who when it is all said and done...may have only led us to 2 mediocre seasons...but cost us so very very much.

Sorry about the length...i just got kinda carried away...[/QUOTE]

I would say over all you are right But Ramsey is far off and may never be a good NFL QB. But this season has been so so because of other free agent busts and ones that got away. The 2006 season looks no better with no 1st rounder[going to Denver]. We Need a great GM!!!

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]Wait! Are you saying that even if it isn't Mark Brunell's fault that we are 5-6 right now, benching him is still the answer? That doesn't make any sense.[/QUOTE]
No, we need to stick with Brunell for the rest of the year.
However, we need to settle the QB situation before the start of next season, and I don't see much good in picking someone who will be 36 to be our starter for 2006, that's all.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Apparently so, no one wants to take into account the inability of the offense under Brunell to salt the game away with nothing more than 1 firstdown late in a game, kind of ironic that the QB everyone inc. Gibbs has so much stock in, are scared to death to possibly put the ball in the air on a high percentage pass play late in the game.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you completely about the offense's inability to move the chains late in the game. It's cost us the past two games.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]I agree with you completely about the offense's inability to move the chains late in the game. It's cost us the past two games.[/QUOTE]

A over rated line and over paid!!! The truth hurts to the tune of 5-6!

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]No, we need to stick with Brunell for the rest of the year.
However, we need to settle the QB situation before the start of next season, and I don't see much good in picking someone who will be 36 to be our starter for 2006, that's all.[/QUOTE]


But, because the guy is 36, is that any reason to bench him? John Elway won two Super Bowls in his upper 30's. His quarterback rating this year is probably either the best in his career or it's right up there with his best rating. If MB was playing behind the hogs right now, he'd probably be considered greater than Joe Montana.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=skinsguy]But, because the guy is 36, is that any reason to bench him? John Elway won two Super Bowls in his upper 30's. His quarterback rating this year is probably either the best in his career or it's right up there with his best rating. If MB was playing behind the hogs right now, he'd probably be considered greater than Joe Montana.[/QUOTE]
That's a legitimate question. But I do feel that if Brunell starts next year, it will delay the development of a future starter, Campbell or whomever. Brunell's done an admirably adequate job as a stopgap, but I think that's all he is - a stopgap.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Twilbert07]That's a legitimate question. But I do feel that if Brunell starts next year, it will delay the development of a future starter, Campbell or whomever. Brunell's done an admirably adequate job as a stopgap, but I think that's all he is - a stopgap.[/QUOTE]

I don't know if I would say it is delaying the development of the younger QBs. As far as on the field experience, I can see your point. However, a major part of their development is the mental aspects of the game. They have the advantage of watching a veteran qb run the offense. I think that goes a long way in qb development as well.

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Thats kind of the point here, Ramsey really hasen't been given a chance under Gibbs.[/QUOTE]
Offiss I think your one of the few that understands all this ..thank god your on this board

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=railcon56@comcast.net]Offiss I think your one of the few that understands all this ..thank god your on this board[/QUOTE]

Seriously, thank god. I can't understand why you guys aren't advisors to Gibbs by now.

[/playful jab not to meant to start a firestorm or criticism of my warpath ego]

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=offiss]Thats kind of the point here, Ramsey really hasen't been given a chance under Gibbs.[/QUOTE]

Ramsey been given pleanty of chances.. He played under the OBC and last year under Gibbs and he didn't play well. He's played in the preseason and looked like shit. Look at his number from last year in 9 games.

Ramsey gp att comp % yds avy td lng [b]INT[/b] rat
2004 9 169 272 62.1 1665 6.1 10 51 [b]11 [/b]74.8

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Seriously, thank god. I can't understand why you guys aren't advisors to Gibbs by now.

[/playful jab not to meant to start a firestorm or criticism of my warpath ego][/QUOTE]
its all good matty i love this board as far as i'm concerned its the #1 sports site in the world!!
humor never hurts

Re: Thoughts on Ramsey and Brunell...
 

[QUOTE=FirstandTen]Ramsey been given pleanty of chances.. He played under the OBC and last year under Gibbs and he didn't play well. He's played in the preseason and looked like shit. Look at his number from last year in 9 games.

Ramsey gp att comp % yds avy td lng [b]INT[/b] rat
2004 9 169 272 62.1 1665 6.1 10 51 [b]11 [/b]74.8[/QUOTE]


Look if you can't see it Im not going to convince you, but you might want to check Brunells #'s under last year conditions, and take into account Ramsey came into some games trying to bail out the hole Brunell left for him, you also might want to take a look at the teams Ramsey faced when Gibbs finally made the switch, he came in against some of the best defenses in the NFL.

It's kind of funny that excuse after excuse is used why we have been losing, from our line play, to Royal dropping passes, which is fine and a big part of Brunells failure, but the same guy's who make excuses for Brunell because we can't run the ball, defend Portis to no end and constantly refer to his total rushing yards last season and compare him to elite RB's, and then scapegoat Brunell by blaming the running game, which is it?

It's not as if Ramsey didn't run into those same type of situations when he played, like recievers running the wrong routes while he recieves blame for INT's or fumbling after a cheap shot to the throat.

Some keep refering to the bears game as a big deal now that we have seen the kind of defense the bears possess, well how many QB's have drove the ball on the bears? Because Ramsey had 2 drives before he was yanked in 1 quarter, and more passing yards in 1 quarter than Brunell had all game, yes he had an INT which apperently was more Gibbs fault than anyone he is responsible to have the WR's making the right reeds, does anyone really want to bring up fumbling when talking about Brunell and Ramsey? Both are equally as bad or Brunell is worse, it's one or the other.

Yes, last week we had a big holding penalty that probably cost us the game no doubt, and no Brunell didn't hold the guy, but it's his resposibility as a leader to pick the team up there and he didn't, he didn't need to get a first down but how bout getting 5 to 10 yards to put us in legitamate fieldgoal range, once again he couldn't do it, and those are the situations some of us are talking about, when the game is on the line and we need not a spectacular play, but a first down, or 5 yards, if Brunell is everything he's made out to be then he should be able to come through there, that's what a 43 mil QB is supposed to do, be a difference maker with the game in the balance.