Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]Pride and Money.

Let's say he signs a three-year deal with the Jets. That works for the Skins but not for Ramsey. Given the Jets current state, we can predict that they will be bottom feeders for the next three years and that their losses would principally be blamed on the QB. What does that do for his pride and how much is he worth when that deal expires.[/QUOTE]

So he would say "it looks like the team is going to lose and I'm going to get the blame", is that it? If that's the case, who would want him anyway? I think he'd be more likely to say "this is my chance to lead a team and help turn this team around"

Where would you think he'd be willing to play?

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS]So he would say "it looks like the team is going to lose and I'm going to get the blame", is that it? If that's the case, who would want him anyway? I think he'd be more likely to say "this is my chance to lead a team and help turn this team around"

Where would you think he'd be willing to play?[/QUOTE]

If your son was a free agent NFL QB would you advise him to accept the challenge of turning around the Jets fortunes rather than playing somewhere where many of the pieces are already in place for a turnaround?

Because of the coaching changes, finding the right fit for Ramsey is beyond me now. I think he'd prosper in a scheme that uses a lot of spread formations but he probably has other ideas. I liked Miami for him, but their OC took a head coaching job with the Rams. Detroit might work.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]You say "Ramsey would be a moron to sign a new contract with anyone..." and then "If any team is offering him a good contract he'll sign it regardless of where it is." Didn't you just contradict yourself?

Anyway. The smart move for Patrick IMO would be to sign a two-year deal with a team that might best support him in establishing himself as a bona fide starting QB. The Skins would be well-served to trade with teams of Ramsey's choice because his willingness to sign a two or three year deal would enhance his current market value.[/QUOTE]

no i said he would be stupid to sign a new contract, the second statement was in response to you saying he would sign with team a and not team b, in which case IF he did actually sign a contract (cause the money was good, which it won't be, hence the first statement) I don't he'd be choosy about who it was with since he's not a player every team wants.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]If your son was a free agent NFL QB would you advise him to accept the challenge of turning around the Jets fortunes rather than playing somewhere where many of the pieces are already in place for a turnaround?

Because of the coaching changes, finding the right fit for Ramsey is beyond me now. I think he'd prosper in a scheme that uses a lot of spread formations but he probably has other ideas. I liked Miami for him, but their OC took a head coaching job with the Rams. Detroit might work.[/QUOTE]

most players under contract have no control, so giving advice wouldn't matter because the desicision isn't his to make.

ramsey would be best served in the rams offense (maybe the lions can dduplicate it, but i just don't think they have anywhere near the talent at wr #2, wr #3 or RB). At tulane he sat back and chucked deep and took a lot of sacks. he did the same thing with spurrier, and the rams do the same thing (only successfully) as well.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]no i said he would be stupid to sign a new contract, the second statement was in response to you saying he would sign with team a and not team b, in which case IF he did actually sign a contract (cause the money was good, which it won't be, hence the first statement) I don't he'd be choosy about who it was with since he's not a player every team wants.[/QUOTE]

So, you're saying that since Ramsey is a washout, he ought to take what he can get and not be so choosy. And I'm saying that since Ramsey doesn't think he's a washout, he will be choosy and it would be a good idea for the Redskins to pursue a trade with teams of Patrick's choice because they might just agree that he isn't a washout and be willing to part with a nice draft choice for him if he signs a new deal.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]those are their career stats, how are you suppposed to measure QBs? instead of decrying the arguement just because it doesn't support your point, how about rebutting it with actual facts?[/QUOTE]

I am not in the habit of rebutting arguments with facts after I have already conceded the point.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]So, you're saying that since Ramsey is a washout, he ought to take what he can get and not be so choosy. And I'm saying that since Ramsey doesn't think he's a washout, he will be choosy and it would be a good idea for the Redskins to pursue a trade with teams of Patrick's choice because they might just agree that he isn't a washout and be willing to part with a nice draft choice for him if he signs a new deal.[/QUOTE]

i dont think he's a washout, but i don't think he has the peyton type of talent to control his situation. The ONLY way he'd agree to a new contract with anyone is if he thinks its close to what he could get after a good year going into a potentially uncapped season. I think both he and the teams looking at him (who may also be drafting a QB and only need one year) would rather take a test drive than commit at a high dollar cost up front.

If someone insists on a new contract, it'll probably be a cheap one that ramsey wouldn't want, and he's completely capable of saying no to that. I think right now ramsey is more concerned with a chance to start games than with the size of a contract, because if he can play and play well, he'll make a ton more money in the long run. signing a 3 year contract for his current market value (maybe 2mill a year) would be counter to his interests (if he plays well he could get 4mill a year like warner or harrington and possibly a 5 year deal because of his age).

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]i dont think he's a washout, but i don't think he has the peyton type of talent to control his situation. The ONLY way he'd agree to a new contract with anyone is if he thinks its close to what he could get after a good year going into a potentially uncapped season. I think both he and the teams looking at him (who may also be drafting a QB and only need one year) would rather take a test drive than commit at a high dollar cost up front.

If someone insists on a new contract, it'll probably be a cheap one that ramsey wouldn't want, and he's completely capable of saying no to that. I think right now ramsey is more concerned with a chance to start games than with the size of a contract, because if he can play and play well, he'll make a ton more money in the long run. signing a 3 year contract for his current market value (maybe 2mill a year) would be counter to his interests (if he plays well he could get 4mill a year like warner or harrington and possibly a 5 year deal because of his age).[/QUOTE]

Okay. I understand your position now and you might well be right, but starting with a team that offers him weak support would be repeating the problem Ramsey had with the Skins in 2003 with Spurrier and in 2004 with the not-ready-for-prime-time Gibbs offense. If he's as smart as I think he is, Patrick will scuttle a deal like that.

I can't see the Jets, for example, giving us a draft pick for a one-year trial of a QB who doesn't want to play there.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=Huddle]
I can't see the Jets giving us a draft pick for a one-year trial of a QB who doesn't want to play there.[/QUOTE]

I could potentially see it, because they're in cap hell and the team is going to be bad. they don't want to ruin their rookie QB... so ramsey plays while culter learns and the next season, the jets will be able to start getting better talent again and culter can avoid being thrown into a meatgrinder while the NY media destroys him for having a bad team...

there are more QBs than openings as it appears right now, so there's a chance it might be ramsey's best shot (which would basically be a solo audition for the next year).

the raiders are probably more likely though. The saints may also grab a vet to let leinhart sit, but i doubt it. Leinhart in that situation is the guy you throw in to start learning right away. he's pretty polished and the NO media will welcome him as a savior.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]I could potentially see it, because they're in cap hell and the team is going to be bad. they don't want to ruin their rookie QB... so ramsey plays while culter learns and the next season, the jets will be able to start getting better talent again and culter can avoid being thrown into a meatgrinder while the NY media destroys him for having a bad team...

there are more QBs than openings as it appears right now, so there's a chance it might be ramsey's best shot (which would basically be a solo audition for the next year).

the raiders are probably more likely though. The saints may also grab a vet to let leinhart sit, but i doubt it. Leinhart in that situation is the guy you throw in to start learning right away. he's pretty polished and the NO media will welcome him as a savior.[/QUOTE]

You're the GM of the Jets. You would give up a draft pick for a QB to use for one year as cannon fodder when there are dozens of third-tier guys available as free agents at the league minimum salary?

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

guyss looking for vet min aren't going to be as good as ramsey... maybe on draft day i'm sitting on my 4th or 5th round pick and don't really see anyone i like there.

besides, if ramsey is great, you got a D brees situation and that's not a bad thing. No coach wants to purposefully lose games and ramsey could really help with job security by giving you a couple extra wins while you're waiting out your cap hell.

maybe not, maybe another top 5 pick would be ideal, but ramsey isn't bad for price/performance, he's young with some upside and you don't have to commit to a long term contract (like kitna etc would want). It really depends on how they think things through. losing a lot of games because you only felt like paying vet min for jeff blake is a good way to loses the locker room though.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]guyss looking for vet min aren't going to be as good as ramsey... maybe on draft day i'm sitting on my 4th or 5th round pick and don't really see anyone i like there.

besides, if ramsey is great, you got a D brees situation and that's not a bad thing. No coach wants to purposefully lose games and ramsey could really help with job security by giving you a couple extra wins while you're waiting out your cap hell.

maybe not, maybe another top 5 pick would be ideal, but ramsey isn't bad for price/performance, he's young with some upside and you don't have to commit to a long term contract (like kitna etc would want). It really depends on how they think things through. losing a lot of games because you only felt like paying vet min for jeff blake is a good way to loses the locker room though.[/QUOTE]

I just spent some time on a Dolphins board. The consensus there seems to be that Ramsey might be had for a draft pick between three and five and that he'd be a bargain at that price.

Some think Drew Brees will come their way. Others are skeptical about his shoulder.

I've watched Drew Brees play four or five times and I'm unimpressed. He reminds me of Pennington: very accurate, good timing, but a weak arm (and that was before the shoulder injury).

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

bree's arm is definately better than pennington's, but he does have off days... I mean, the skins got 4 picks off him (but LT still beat us). pennington has had better guys to throw to as well (but tiny deep threats and a weak arm don't mix well i'm afraid).

ramsey isn't as flawed or old as a lot of other options, and he's got an arm so there's some hope. i'd gladly take a 4th.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]The more I look at it, the more I feel Ramsey may be staying in Washington, simply because right now the market seems pretty flooded with QBs. I don't know if we'll get what we want for Ramsey.

Regardless of where he goes (minus an NFC E team) I wish him tons of luck. I really like him as a person and a player. I feel he got a really raw deal under Gibbs.[/QUOTE]


I agree Daseal, I think the x-factor is going to be Saunders, I believe he will have a major say in who he believes is the best QB to run his offense, and right now it's Patrick, he has all the qualities that you need to be a pocket passer, Green flurished under Saunders in KC he is also very similar to Ramsey except 1, Ramseys arm is much more powerful, and 2, Ramsey is smarter, beyond that they are both tough and probably move about the same.

I don't believe that Brunell has the arm or the toughness to run Saunders offense, but I am also realistic in the fact that Gibbs is going to do his best to push for Brunell, at least early on, then it will be Campbell.

I feel all Ramsey needs is a legitamate shot early on and he will take the job, just don't know if he will be here to do it.

Re: Does Ramsey Have Some Trade Control?
 

[QUOTE=That Guy]bree's arm is definately better than pennington's, but he does have off days... I mean, the skins got 4 picks off him (but LT still beat us). pennington has had better guys to throw to as well (but tiny deep threats and a weak arm don't mix well i'm afraid).

ramsey isn't as flawed or old as a lot of other options, and he's got an arm so there's some hope. i'd gladly take a 4th.[/QUOTE]

I think that Ramsey is an upgrade from Frerotte and Rosenfels and I would press the Dolphins for a #3 in negotiations. I think we can find someone willing to give up a 3 for Patrick. The contract stuff is for them to work out. If a team wants an extension as part of the deal then we move on to the next team.
It's interesting to me that hardcore fans who have (presumably) seen every snap Patrick has taken could arrive at such varying opinions of his ability. I see him as extremely average. A strong, accurate thrower, handicapped by his lack of mobility and poor decision making. Others see him as a superstar, who would dazzle us if it weren't for that biased Joe Gibbs, who cares more about proving he wasn't wrong on Brunell than he does about winning.