right, people keep trying to figure out who got the better end of the deal, but honestly, I think both teams came out ahead.

champ was NOT going to stay here, so we got a top five running game out of it... something we desperately needed, and something gibbs would hate to be without. Champ was replaced by extensive secondary depth which should counteract his loss.

denver got an improved secondary so its no longer the sad excuse it was... they gave up a big back who was (rightfully) a bit miffed about earning minimum wage... they lost him, but already had good depth at RB and a good O-line to help out.

Champ was going to leave the Skins one way or another - so I say good riddence to that ass-monkey!

I think Smoot & Springs will be a great tandem - but I also think they will be unfairly scrutinized if our D-Line doesn't apply much pressure to the QB. If the QB has enough time, you could have two Darell Green's back there and they'll get beat from time to time.

[QUOTE=That Guy]right, people keep trying to figure out who got the better end of the deal, but honestly, I think both teams came out ahead.

champ was NOT going to stay here, so we got a top five running game out of it... something we desperately needed, and something gibbs would hate to be without. Champ was replaced by extensive secondary depth which should counteract his loss.

denver got an improved secondary so its no longer the sad excuse it was... they gave up a big back who was (rightfully) a bit miffed about earning minimum wage... they lost him, but already had good depth at RB and a good O-line to help out.[/QUOTE]

Well, I believe that by the middle of the season, this trade is going to be one of the all-time NFL laughers. I disagree that Denver is deep at RB. Portis is definitely the real thing. Terrell Davis was the real thing. The rest of the guys that went through there were the very lucky recipients of easy yardage thanks to one of the best OL's in the league. But the OL coach has moved on to Atlanta. Redskin fans have seen what that means. The Denver fans that have grown to think you can put anyone in the Denver backfield, and he will be an immediate stud, are in for a very rude awakening, and a disappointing season.

Even if Champ has a better season in Denver than he had last year, he will not have NEARLY the "impact" a stud RB would have. One very good CB? There are lots of other places on the field to throw - you can effectively take him out of the game. But a stud RB takes the game to the defense, and will impact every game.

right, star CBs are much rarer, but their overall impact on a team isn't nearly as noticeable. I'd pick portis every time.

[QUOTE=Hogskin] But the OL coach has moved on to Atlanta. Redskin fans have seen what that means. The Denver fans that have grown to think you can put anyone in the Denver backfield, and he will be an immediate stud, are in for a very rude awakening, and a disappointing season.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Shanahan is not the most humble of coaches, and while you cannot argue with the string of success that he's had with RBs the loss of Alex Gibbs will loom large this season. I mean the guy retired once before and they brought him back as a consultant because the OL play had begun to suffer.

What greater irony is there than the Broncos being able to plug in any back and have a successful running game after ALL those years of struggling to find any back to run when Elway was there? Or am I just showing my age again?

:banghead: BTW, I just love the Frerotte icon. What a maroon!

haha, i never even thought of that as a freotte icon, awesome.

Thanks guys, I feel better now.

Hogskin, I do have to disagree somewhat with your statement that our D-line is "marginally better". As much as I want to believe that, Cornelius Griffin and Philip Daniels only seem to be replacement parts to the departed Bruce Smith and Darrell Russell, rather than a marginal improvement. In fact, I dare say we might have seen more productivity from them compared to the current crop of linemen. And yes, I really hope to eat those words later. We'll see.

Maybe with a healthy Brandon Noble and Jermaine Haley, at least the D-tackle position could be in more solid shape. Defensive end though, is still a huge question mark. Gregg Williams had better put on the defensive wizardry that everyone expects to make up for what could be lethargic pass rush from the ends.

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Thanks guys, I feel better now.

Hogskin, I do have to disagree somewhat with your statement that our D-line is "marginally better". As much as I want to believe that, Cornelius Griffin and Philip Daniels only seem to be replacement parts to the departed Bruce Smith and Darrell Russell, rather than a marginal improvement. In fact, I dare say we might have seen more productivity from them compared to the current crop of linemen. And yes, I really hope to eat those words later. We'll see.

Maybe with a healthy Brandon Noble and Jermaine Haley, at least the D-tackle position could be in more solid shape. Defensive end though, is still a huge question mark. Gregg Williams had better put on the defensive wizardry that everyone expects to make up for what could be lethargic pass rush from the ends.[/QUOTE]

Beem, you say you disagree, but by the end of your statement, it sounded like you were making my case for marginal improvement. As far as two guys being replacements for Russell and Smith, wouldn't you agree that neither of those contributed anything measureable last season? Russell hardly played and Smith whined and chased a personal record. So anything would be SOME improvement LOL. But I think you will also see Williams' influence have some impact on the DL. Expect defensive improvements across the board this year. We need some DL upgrade to make it to the top, but I fully expect a top 10 D this year. I would bet $$ that we will rank above Champ's new team D!!

I've already made bets that we'd finish the season rated among the top ten defenses. I think that people are forgetting that we we're a perpetual top 5-10 rated D for years, right before the old ball coach came to town.

Williams pressence alone will have a HUGE impact. Let's just hope that he's here for the entire Gibbs era, because this coaching staff needs to offer some GREATLY needed stability.

[QUOTE=Hogskin]Beem, you say you disagree, but by the end of your statement, it sounded like you were making my case for marginal improvement. As far as two guys being replacements for Russell and Smith, wouldn't you agree that neither of those contributed anything measureable last season? Russell hardly played and Smith whined and chased a personal record. So anything would be SOME improvement LOL. But I think you will also see Williams' influence have some impact on the DL. Expect defensive improvements across the board this year. We need some DL upgrade to make it to the top, but I fully expect a top 10 D this year. I would bet $$ that we will rank above Champ's new team D!![/QUOTE]

I said we could be in more solid shape at defensive tackle, and that's if Brandon Noble returns to full health along with Jermaine Haley. But again, that's at D-tackle, not the ends.

I was no fan of Bruce Smith in his last two seasons or so in Washington, but Smith actually did make a measureable contribution as he wound up to be the leader in sacks last year.

And while I have more confidence in Gregg Williams than George Edwards, he had certainly better be the defensive mastermind that everybody says he is who can overcome any lack of personnel or talent at key positions.

yea, russel didnt play hardly at all. And if anything Smith made our defense worth because of all the trouble and rifts he was causing. Smith would just walk out on plays because he was tired, or got his sack and didnt care anymore. Having four dlinemen that try is an upgrade. Griffin is a fighter and gives his all, he didnt get teh sacks last year but he caused pressure. Hopefully daniels and griffin will live up to their form from two years ago

Dan Wilkinson and Jessie Armstead said something pretty interesting a couple of years ago, during Marvin Lewis' year with the team. I don't remember exactly what they said, but the gist of it was

"We have to make certain adjustments when Bruce is out there with us. We have to compensate for him, because his concern isn't adjusting to the system, it's getting to the quarterback. But that's cool because he's a Hall-of-Famer and he's going after the record"

So yeah, Bruce Smith racked up a lot of sacks but at what cost to the team? I know, you wouldn't think sacks would be detrimental to the team but I suppose they could be right?

[QUOTE=smootsmack]So yeah, Bruce Smith racked up a lot of sacks but at what cost to the team? I know, you wouldn't think sacks would be detrimental to the team but I suppose they could be right?[/QUOTE]

Very well put, Smack!! Yes the defense looked like it was in disarray a lot of the time. Partly, as you pointed out, due to Smith, and partly do to Arrington being told to freelance - WITH NO GUIDELINES AND NO COORDINATION WITH THE REST OF THE D!! (I know - I'm off the subject...) He was a big problem on many plays last year, but it absolutely was due to bad coaching, not his fault. It will be SO nice for a guy with a truely positive attitude and team values to finally get the opportunity to live up to his great potential!! I am totally confident he will come through.