Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis is the better back of the two. But he is clearly not the back he once was.

If he doesn't pick it up, I see CP departing at the end of this season.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=dgack;370735]The problem with this argument is now you're lowering the bar for CP so he can trip over it like "99%" of NFL RB's. We didn't trade the best corner in pro football to the Broncos for some guy who's just as good as any other average NFL back. At the time, he was being compared to guys like LT in terms of franchise career potential.

I mean, the fact that anybody is even looking in Ladell Betts' direction should say something loud and clear about how healthy and effective Portis has been in the last 2 years.[/QUOTE]

I don't think Portis deserves to be completely let off the hook. I would agree that his production has declined, but his production has declined right along with our offensive line. He was banged up last year, and I think he still has some lingering knee problems this year.

Like I said before, even if we had LT right now I don't think he'd get much behind this offensive line. Portis' production is down, but so is everyone else's, and just like John Madden says, "it all starts with the offensive line."

I just wish I could find someone to point fingers at with respect to the offensive line. The trainers is all I can think of, and I have a hard time blaming them for injuries.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

CP is the better back. Like most said, he is better in pass protection. However, I credit one of JC's fumbles in the NE game to Portis missing his block.

I think Portis needs to rest. Just because he has more talent, doesn't mean that he is always the better choice. I would also like to see a game where one back gets all the carries. Let's see if that can get somebody into a rhythm, and whether that will improve our rushing attack.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

Portis rushed 11 times for just 27 yards Sunday, and is averaging 3.4 yards per carry over the last six games as the feature back, [B]but Gibbs said he is mulling no changes and is not inclined to use running back Ladell Betts[/B], who surpassed 1,000 yards last season, more often. . . . The Redskins have been prone to fumbles, a problem that recurred Sunday. Quarterback Jason Campbell fumbled three times, and the Redskins have fumbled at least three times in four of their last five games. They have 15 fumbles in that span, losing seven. "They did a great job of making plays on the ball," Campbell said.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370740]Betts hasn't done much of anything this year to warrant more carries. I just find it curious that people want to bench a guy averaging 3.9 yards per carry for a guy averaging 2.9. The fact that both guys are struggling so much to me points to a bigger issue. Mainly the injuries and inconsistency along the OL.[/quote]Ultimately you're dead on Matty, and the fact is that this offensive line is one of the worst in the league, and it will be impossible to rush behind it with anyone consistently.

But the point is this: Portis is averaging 3.8 yards an attempt now on 115 carries for 433 yards. That's a crapload of carries to still be in the 3.8 range.

Betts only has 47 attempts through 7 games. 2.9 y/a possibly reflects on an unlucky streak in a small sample size.

I think a lot of us would like to see what Betts can do taking the lead on Portis for awhile. If he can give the running game some semblance of competancy, even if that's only 4.2 yards/carry, our offense can make a drastic improvement. If Betts is useless, give Rock a chance when he gets healthy. Both Betts and Rock have been effective runners in the past (as of course has Portis).

Portis' blocking has been too inconsistent this season to warrant keeping him in the starting lineup as a pass blocker. Even when the blocking is good, he's not creating the big play.

This offense is just terrible right now, has been for the last two games, and something has to be done. We can't really do anything with the line right now, so we either have to change the back or the quarterback or the receivers.

P.S.-I'm not suggesting we change the quarterback.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;370824]Ultimately you're dead on Matty, and the fact is that this offensive line is one of the worst in the league, and it will be impossible to rush behind it with anyone consistently.

But the point is this: Portis is averaging 3.8 yards an attempt now on 115 carries for 433 yards. That's a crapload of carries to still be in the 3.8 range.

Betts only has 47 attempts through 7 games. 2.9 y/a possibly reflects on an unlucky streak in a small sample size.

I think a lot of us would like to see what Betts can do taking the lead on Portis for awhile. If he can give the running game some semblance of competancy, even if that's only 4.2 yards/carry, our offense can make a drastic improvement. If Betts is useless, give Rock a chance when he gets healthy. Both Betts and Rock have been effective runners in the past (as of course has Portis).

Portis' blocking has been too inconsistent this season to warrant keeping him in the starting lineup as a pass blocker. Even when the blocking is good, he's not creating the big play.

This offense is just terrible right now, has been for the last two games, and something has to be done. We can't really do anything with the line right now, so we either have to change the back or the quarterback or the receivers.

P.S.-I'm not suggesting we change the quarterback.[/QUOTE]

Changing the feature back only makes sense if you think the other guys can do a better job. After having watched Betts for years, I love the guy and want to see him get more carries, but I don't see him doing a better job than Portis. I'm frankly tired of hearing complaints about Portis when the guy is usually getting hit before he gets to the line of scrimmage. Hopefully the line will improve and this entire discussion will be a moot point.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370844]Changing the feature back only makes sense if you think the other guys can do a better job. After having watched Betts for years, I love the guy and want to see him get more carries, but I don't see him doing a better job than Portis. I'm frankly tired of hearing complaints about Portis when the guy is usually getting hit before he gets to the line of scrimmage. Hopefully the line will improve and this entire discussion will be a moot point.[/quote]Well of course, but I think Portis' performance leaves a lot to be desired.

If Portis was a little quicker, he wouldn't get hit near the line quite so often. The line has been bad, but so has CP.

I think a change at RB would help. I don't think it would help a lot, because the line is still bad, but even if it just helps a little, it's a good move then, is it not?

Of course, if the line gets it together, Portis or Betts could have success. I just want the back in there that gives us the best chance to win, and at this point in time, I can't really say that it's Clinton Portis.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=hooskins;370743]I agree with that. Both seem to struggle, yet when Betts does no one even complains, but when it is Portis everyone starts saying "injury prone", "something is missing", etc etc. It seems very silly, and as Matty said if you wanna blame anyone blame the Oline.[/quote]
With both of them struggling onl one thing has changed and that the injuries to our O line and one would have to assume thats the problem with the running game. One reason Portis takes more of a hit than Betts is what the team is paying him compared to Betts.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370754]To repeat what has been repeated many times before, Champ Bailey was not going to stay in D.C. He told the coaches that they HAD to leave D.C. So, we can complain about losing Bailey all we want, but it was going to happen anyways. And, I distinctly remember everyone being estatic when Portis came to town. Finally, the guy totalled more than 3,000 yards in his first two seasons in D.C. and broke the franchise rushing record. So, I have no reason why people still insist on complaining about the trade.[/quote]


Of course, I realize that Champ wasn't going to stay, but that has nothing to do with what I was saying. I am not complaining about the deal at all. I defended it then and still think it was the right decision at the time. What I am illustrating is precisely what we thiought we were getting THEN, and what we have NOW. When the deal occurred, CP was considered to be a team-defining RB. A franchise guy. A guy you build your team around.

Regardless of the Champ situation, I would love to hear the scenario where Portis has been the rock and foundation of this team we thought we were getting in that deal.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

A RB is only as good as the big fatties up front, and this year they haven't been good.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

There's a few players on the offense who are doing thier parts, namely:

Samuels
Kendall
Rabach
Cooley
Randle El
Campbell
Sellers

So, according to me, the blame for the offense being at its worst since 2004 falls on the four positions that aren't getting it done; RG, RT, WR, and RB.

Obviously the biggest culprits are RG and RT. But can we do anything to improve this? Well, yes, we can get Todd Wade out of there and put Stephon Heyer in. But that's about it as far as fixing the line. We are going to have to compensate in other areas.

Should we replace Santana in the starting lineup? Well, we could, but I don't think that does a lot of good. We lose a hefty deal of important big play potential with him out of the lineup, and that's a good way to circumvent the lack of consistent offense.

So that leaves one position where a change could do some good. I don't think Betts could be doing worse than Portis is right now. It's not all Portis, but he certainly isn't helping.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Mattyk72;370856]A RB is only as good as the big fatties up front, and this year they haven't been good.[/quote]Again, though, that doesn't excuse failure in the open field.

Portis hasn't been good for us this year. He looks like he's too hurt to improve in the short term.

Plenty of guys can fail behind this offensive line, we don't need to keep on chuggin' until Portis can succeed.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;370750]Using that logic, we should dump every guy playing at a skill position. I guess Cooley's best days are behind him too since he got a fat contract and hasn't done much this season. Moss should be dumped too. We should also dump JC since his numbers aren't looking too hot. Why not just dump the entire team and look to free agency?[/quote]

Where did I ever say we should dump Portis? I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is I wish guys would stop with the denial on CP. He is NOT fine. He is NOT just being victimized by a bad O-Line. He is NEVER going to be the back he was when we acquired him, again, in my opinion.

You guys talk about the '05 season like it validates everything but you completely gloss over the fact that he broke records through quantity of touches, attempting to Curtis Martin himself through the record books. Well, guess what? The man is simply not built for the kind of running he's doing here.

I don't really care if it's the system, the O-Line, the playcalling, or his own biology. I'm not making that argument. Fact is, he's never approached the level of play here that he had in Denver, and he's fading fast.

If one of you guys wants to tell me how he's going to return to the days of 5.5 rushing averages, 15 TD seasons, and huge, back-breaking runs of 50-60 yards on opponents, I'm all ears. But I don't see it happening here, regardless of who's fault that is.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

And to answer your straw-man about Cooley and Moss, SGG, I do think we need to re-evaluate Moss.

Cooley is a bogus argument since he's already got 5TD's on the year which is 2 away from his career high. His yards are down, but that's to be expected with a young QB who is getting ZERO help from the other receivers.

That was terribly weak sauce and you know it.

Re: Portis v. Betts: The Grass is Always Greener
 

[quote=dgack;370867]Where did I ever say we should dump Portis? I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is I wish guys would stop with the denial on CP. He is NOT fine. He is NOT just being victimized by a bad O-Line. He is NEVER going to be the back he was when we acquired him, again, in my opinion.

You guys talk about the '05 season like it validates everything but you completely gloss over the fact that he broke records through quantity of touches, attempting to Curtis Martin himself through the record books. Well, guess what? The man is simply not built for the kind of running he's doing here.

I don't really care if it's the system, the O-Line, the playcalling, or his own biology. I'm not making that argument. Fact is, he's never approached the level of play here that he had in Denver, and he's fading fast.

If one of you guys wants to tell me how he's going to return to the days of 5.5 rushing averages, 15 TD seasons, and huge, back-breaking runs of 50-60 yards on opponents, I'm all ears. But I don't see it happening here, regardless of who's fault that is.[/quote]I made this argument preseason. Then I backed down a bit after the Miami game.

I think a lot of backs could have been effective behind Samuels, Kendall, Rabach, Thomas, and Jansen. Now, we don't have Thomas and Jansen, and it's really starting to hurt.

I really feel now though that I had the "Portis Prospectus" nailed in the preseason. Unfortunately, I don't feel good about it. It's a sinking feeling knowing now that the guy's best days are behind him.

He's not an elite back anymore. He was for his first 4 years in the league, but now he's a shadow of his former self. He's still a crafty vet who can run 15 times a game for a team who emphasizes the pass game (like we can with better protection), but he's not going to carry a team on his legs anymore. He just can't, physically.

It's very clear that playing to our strengths is throwing the football, in a max protect kind of way, often using play action. Campbell is going to be forced to hit tight windows, but its something that he's good at.