Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=TAFKAS;232837]What I'm saying is suppose Campbell comes out there and he's throwing the same passes, 3 step drop and screen. And we see that whoever is at QB we're still running the same offense, then who do we blame-Gibbs, Saunders, Campbell, the O-line? All I'm saying is we all assume that Campbell is going to come in and launch bombs all game long, but isn't it entirely possible that may not be the case?[/QUOTE]

i really doubt the Saunders playbook is 700 pages of dump offs. most pass plays have a reciever options in different parts of the field, not just behind the line of schrimmage.

yeah Brunell is trained to dump off on a blitz, but its become too much of reflex so defenses just gameplan that. if Brunell had the legs and reaction time to see who is open because of that blitz.....Ladell Betts wouldn't be our "go to guy"

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

forget throwing deep, brunell is too scared to throw for first downs, he takes so frickin long to drop back, that by the time he completes the screen, there are 2 linebackers sniffing it out. he's got no athleticism and horrible footwork right now. Saunders is not the problem and neither is GW. Lack of talent is the problem, especially on defense.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=TAFKAS;232837]What I'm saying is suppose Campbell comes out there and he's throwing the same passes, 3 step drop and screen. And we see that whoever is at QB we're still running the same offense, then who do we blame-Gibbs, Saunders, Campbell, the O-line? All I'm saying is we all assume that Campbell is going to come in and launch bombs all game long, but isn't it entirely possible that may not be the case?[/quote]
It would be sweet if it was.

But yeah, I was thinking of that the other day. Campbell may be a great quarterback eventually, but one thing I can be almost certain of is that he is not the cureall.

We tend to assume a different QB is a cure-all here in DC and usually that isn't the case. We need a healthy O-line that is a bunch of headbusters to rally behind Campbell, give him time, and spread the ball out. At the very least, let JC execute our offense and judge whether or not he's the answer.

I'm glad I'm no head coach and that's not my job, cause that is hard to do.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=That Guy;232847]if that's the case, then wtf is saunders here? if they're not asked to throw deep in the first place, than those coaches shouldn't be running the offense. It doesn't need to be 60's raiders, but show me something instead of dump offs 5 yards short on every other 3rd down.[/quote]I'd like to see some more agressive third down playcalling. But not downfield, just thrown at the marker on third and seven or third and eight. Chris Cooley. The dump off works a lot more than people credit it for, but we rely on it a bit to much on third down, I think. Chris Cooley.

I believe throwing down the field on third-and too-far-to-go-for-it-on-4th is highly counter productive. Chris Cooley.


Remember, Chris Cooley, our home run plays are the quick screen to Santana, and Portis off tackle. We really don't need a deep ball. If they are all in the box like people truely think they are, run a draw. Touchdown. Unless of course they have a safety back defending the deep ball that you all want to see so damn bad. Chris Cooley.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=RobH4413;232854]It would be sweet if it was.

But yeah, I was thinking of that the other day. Campbell may be a great quarterback eventually, but one thing I can be almost certain of is that he is not the cureall.

We tend to assume a different QB is a cure-all here in DC and usually that isn't the case. We need a healthy O-line that is a bunch of headbusters to rally behind Campbell, give him time, and spread the ball out. At the very least, let JC execute our offense and judge whether or not he's the answer.

I'm glad I'm no head coach and that's not my job, cause that is hard to do.[/QUOTE]

The most popular player always seems to be the backup QB. Remember when the Bills went to four straight Super Bowls, my friends in Buffalo say that Frank Reich was more popular than Jim Kelly anyway. Gmanc, can you confirm?

I'm still torn on whether Campbell should be starting now. At the very least though, he should be the #2 guy. Another thing I'm curious about-if Campbell does get the starting nod will Brunell be bumped down to #2 or #3?

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232850]You get your guys hurt trying to win a losing battle. Moss has a hamstring injury, Randle El came up funny and we didn't even try hard to come back at the end.[/QUOTE]

win a losing battle is why we play the game GTripp. also, people RACK UP yards during "garbage time". defenses are set up to give short yards and prevent quick scores. Brunell dumped off to Betts for 8yds at a clip and took the whole clock in the process. 1 TD scored, Indy wins the game. mission accomplished.

in fact its even in the name of the defense PREVENT. even i learned that in my days at Sega Genesis State.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

you know, the shotgun worked a lot better for brunell... why did that disappear so completely? and where's the audibles that worked so well last year?

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=illdefined;232863]win a losing battle is why we play the game GTripp. also, people RACK UP yards during "garbage time". defenses are set up to give short yards and prevent quick scores. Brunell dumped off to Betts for 8yds at a clip and took the whole clock in the process. 1 TD scored, Indy wins the game. mission accomplished.

in fact its even in the name of the defense PREVENT. even i learned that in my days at Sega Genesis State.[/quote]I wasn't talking about low percentage chances, I love those kind of comebacks, it's what I live for. I'm talking about two minute warning, down by 3 tds stuff, where the only hope for victory is Brunell to Mossx3 + 2 successful onside kicks. That just isn't worth it.

I understand a prevent, probably more so than the average person seeing as how I was a garbage time QB in HS. But I think you missed by point about how trailing 3 TDs is a HUGE disadvantage before the game gets to prevent defense status. Undoubtably, Brunell took a major beating due to the score. Yet, he continued to move the ball, and accrue completions. I think our third down playcalling needs to be more conventional.

Sega Genesis rocks my world.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232871]I wasn't talking about low percentage chances, I love those kind of comebacks, it's what I live for. I'm talking about two minute warning, down by 3 tds stuff, where the only hope for victory is Brunell to Mossx3 + 2 successful onside kicks. That just isn't worth it.

I understand a prevent, probably more so than the average person seeing as how I was a garbage time QB in HS. But I think you missed by point about how trailing 3 TDs is a HUGE disadvantage before the game gets to prevent defense status. Undoubtably, Brunell took a major beating due to the score. Yet, he continued to move the ball, and accrue completions. I think our third down playcalling needs to be more conventional.

Sega Genesis rocks my world.[/QUOTE]

remember the Dallas game last year? the "turning point" of our season? with Moss as NFL player of the week? two improbable passes over the middle of the field and over the defense?

well Ladell Betts is a poor substitute. "garbage time" SHOULD mean two minutes, but lately it's been the entire second half.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;232867]you know, the shotgun worked a lot better for brunell... why did that disappear so completely? and where's the audibles that worked so well last year?[/QUOTE]

Like I said...bring back Bill Musgrave!!!

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

Aikman mentioned that perhaps the loss of Musgrave has hurt Brunell.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;232843]But he did complete deep. Weren't you watching? And for your garbage time arguement, without it, he now has a ridiculously low TOP for the game, and consequently a low attempts number. I don't know if you think the Colts stopped trying or something, but I don't think garbage time should be discredited simply because the D is no longer blitzing anymore.

I enjoy your tell it like it is style, That Guy, but I'm afraid your garbage time arguement holds little water. The game is 60 minutes long, but realistically, we were dead in the water after 38. Brunell endured a few series in which he was fighting a losing battle simply because Freeney and Co. were pinning their ears back. He was playing much of the half without Portis and got killed. So I would argue that the garbage time actually should have HURT his stats overall. And with all that beating, poor pass blocking, and stiff defense, he still kept the ball out of the defenses hands and kept completeing passes.

Oh yeah, I would like to see your response to your last four sentences had someone else said them. You would probably tear them and their generalizations apart.[/quote]

if we had more consistant production we'd have a higher TOP. and garbage time = prevent defense = the defense giving you the 5 and 6 yard plays. and that's more or less what we got. 1 TD after their D had completely let up, and it looked like the skins were barely even trying. and I wouldn't tear generalizations apart if they're true. we don't throw deep, not compared to other NFL teams, and we don't throw over the middle, and haven't for quite a while.

fighting a losing battle is meaningless. that whole part of your arguement is skewed, because in the prevent they weren't rushing nearly as much, and if he completed deep earlier, they'd back off the line and he wouldn't have to throw nearly every down. prevent defenses almost never hurt stats, since shallow completions are almost given away.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=illdefined;232875]remember the Dallas game last year? the "turning point" of our season? with Moss as NFL player of the week? two improbable passes over the middle of the field and over the defense?

well Ladell Betts is a poor substitute. "garbage time" SHOULD mean two minutes, but lately it's been the entire second half.[/quote]Well, yeah. I was one of the people who thought we still had a chance on 4th and 15 down by 13 points. I thought it was about to slip away, but I'm an optimist, so I figured if we could only get a first, we'd still have a chance.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=That Guy;232883]if we had more consistant production we'd have a higher TOP. and garbage time = prevent defense = the defense giving you the 5 and 6 yard plays. and that's more or less what we got. 1 TD after their D had completely let up, and it looked like the skins were barely even trying. and I wouldn't tear generalizations apart if they're true. we don't throw deep, not compared to other NFL teams, and we don't throw over the middle, and haven't for quite a while.

fighting a losing battle is meaningless. that whole part of your arguement is skewed, because in the prevent they weren't rushing nearly as much, and if he completed deep earlier, they'd back off the line and he wouldn't have to throw nearly every down. prevent defenses almost never hurt stats, since shallow completions are almost given away.[/quote]If you want to get techincal, add a qualifier to your generalization such as "we dont throw deep [I]often[/I]", or "we dont throw deep as much [I]as Indy does[/I]". Saying we don't do this, and we don't do that is incorrect. We do throw all over the field, but we tend to use the flats more often than most teams.

And teams DO back off the line already because they respect Santana's deep threat ability. You know this because we don't throw deep to him, and Saunders has a history of going deep in KC and STL.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

and here we are, without that crucial "turning point". right where we were last year before the Dallas game.

what made that game such a "turning point" was people learned to respect Moss and not just Portis. it made defenses stretch vertically. it opened up our entire offense, and gave the team hope it could always come close to winning. no longer.

everyone thought Patten wasn't a good number 2 reciever, but now its been revealed that number 2 barely gets looked at by Brunell, no matter who's playing.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;232894]
And teams DO back off the line already because they respect Santana's deep threat ability. You know this because we don't throw deep to him, and Saunders has a history of going deep in KC and STL.[/quote]


I didn't see them backing off, i saw them punking him. maybe they didn't throw to him because brunell has a noddle arm, and saunders had better QBs with better arms in KC and STL. :P

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232894]If you want to get techincal, add a qualifier to your generalization such as "we dont throw deep [I]often[/I]", or "we dont throw deep as much [I]as Indy does[/I]". Saying we don't do this, and we don't do that is incorrect. We do throw all over the field, but we tend to use the flats more often than most teams.[/QUOTE]

If there's one thing I've learned on this board it's that it's not uncommon among several members to make all or nothing statements. Always and Never are two very popular words here. It's annoying but you can't change it

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=That Guy;232906]I didn't see them backing off, i saw them punking him. maybe they didn't throw to him because brunell has a noddle arm, and saunders had better QBs with better arms in KC and STL. :P[/quote]Maybe. I'm guessing no, since I've seen him throw deep a bunch over the past two seasons. If he physically couldn't that's one thing, but he quite obviously can (I don't believe anyone who watches the games <or even a QB competition> disputes the fact that Brunell can toss it 50+ yards in the air), and all confidience issues aside, the D will generally play to the speed of the WRs, not the arm of the QB.

Remember, as soon as a D trys to get cute on us and puts all 11 guys within 5 yards of the LOS, they will get beat deep.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232915]Maybe. I'm guessing no, since I've seen him throw deep a bunch over the past two seasons. If he physically couldn't that's one thing, but he quite obviously can (I don't believe anyone who watches the games <or even a QB competition> disputes the fact that Brunell can toss it 50+ yards in the air), and all confidience issues aside, the D will generally play to the speed of the WRs, not the arm of the QB.

Remember, as soon as a D trys to get cute on us and puts all 11 guys within 5 yards of the LOS, they will get beat deep.[/QUOTE]

Brunell has thrown deep, but its WHEN he tries thats the problem. he's only willing (or able) to when he can step into it and no one's around ("never"). he can't do it on the run, and he's not willing to unless the reciever is far enough away from a DB for Brunell to feel safe in throwing ("never").

superlatives like "never" aside, its why you always blitz Brunell, because his tendencies are the worst kept secret in the league.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=illdefined;232928]Brunell has thrown deep, but its WHEN he tries thats the problem. he's only willing (or able) to when he can step into it and no one's around ("never"). he can't do it on the run, and he's not willing to unless the reciever is far enough away from a DB for Brunell to feel safe in throwing ("never").

superlatives like "never" aside, its why you always blitz Brunell, because his tendencies are the worst kept secret in the league.[/quote]

maybe he needs them that open cause he can't get great velocity on balls (to prevent them from haning up).

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=illdefined;232928]Brunell has thrown deep, but its WHEN he tries thats the problem. he's only willing (or able) to when he can step into it and no one's around ("never"). he can't do it on the run, and he's not willing to unless the reciever is far enough away from a DB for Brunell to feel safe in throwing ("never").

superlatives like "never" aside, its why you always blitz Brunell, because his tendencies are the worst kept secret in the league.[/quote]Okay, but all justifications aside, why is he still the 11th rated QB in the 6th rated offense? You make him sound like a horrid player. I'd say as bad as you make his tendencies sound, he's still quite effective against NFL defenses.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

I really wonder where we would be if the D was playing well. Don't get me wrong the offense has plenty of room for improvement, but the defense has been horrible.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

I'd put us more at like 4-3. I think we beat the Vikings and Titans with a somewhat decent defense.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;232785]
But if 73% completion and an interceptionless game doesn't satisfy you, then I mean WHAT THE HELL WOULD?[/quote]



A FUCKING WIN WOULD!!! to answer you all caps questions...

I don't care what his stats are, he sucks and there are no stats you can throw out at me or the thousands of others that see the same thing.

wait a minute..... Mark, is that you????

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

I like to look at the whole package. There are guys who throw for a bazillion yards, but have a horrible completion percentage or throw almost as many picks. Seriously, I can only think of 4-5 starting QBs that we'd be worse off having.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232940]Okay, but all justifications aside, why is he still the 11th rated QB in the 6th rated offense? You make him sound like a horrid player. I'd say as bad as you make his tendencies sound, he's still quite effective against NFL defenses.[/QUOTE]

maybe because our entire games are "garbage time". and all the completions and yards Brunell gets is what the defense provides him. can you seriously say Brunell attacks defenses? defenses have been dictating to him all season. with our defense the way it is, they can afford to be generous.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232858]We really don't need a deep ball. If they are all in the box like people truely think they are, run a draw. Touchdown. [/QUOTE]

How exactly does running a draw when people are in the box lead to a TD?

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

Dan Daly in today's Washington Times makes a good point about Gibbs and his blind faith in Brunell.

"Gibbs' characteristic calm in the face of a storm, so important to last year's turnaround, seems almost an impediment to the club's progress these days. If Coach Joe truly thinks Brunell played "extremely well" against Indy -- after the offense generated seven points in the first 59 minutes, 41 seconds -- you have to wonder whether Mark might retire as the Redskins' quarterback. At the age of 65."

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=GTripp0012;232940]Okay, but all justifications aside, why is he still the 11th rated QB in the 6th rated offense? You make him sound like a horrid player. I'd say as bad as you make his tendencies sound, he's still quite effective against NFL defenses.[/quote]

garbage time. houston. he isn't very good. and he's not effective. he has the worst record in comeback situations, a bad win % here. the offense is underperforming and he's a part of it.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

Bottom line if Gibbs starts MB again we know for sure it’s not a football decision. Its painfully obvious MB is a washed up QB. What he provides to this team is not enough. Gibbs pulled PR the first opportunity he had. If he was so conscious of QB play when he pulled PR where did that consciousness go when MB throws 5 yard passes on 3rd and 12's!!!!!!!! Where is that football hall of fame consciousness when MB rolls out to his left and throws the ball out of bounds? How can you maintain the respect of the team if he keeps that guy as his starter? I can’t believe I am saying this but my respect for him as a football coach is dwindling having an embarrassment for a QB as his starter. What does he see when MB plays? Does he see a good QB or his boy who shares the same faith Gibbs he has (I share the same faith Jesus Christ is Lord and my Savior) who saved his life? I just can’t imagine Bill Parcels keeping MB playing the way he does!!! Why is Todd Collins on this team? He might make a good coach one day but he is not a baller. Put Jason Campbell in and build something out of that. Our defense has no hope; your starting QB does not have the physical tools to make it happen. The bottom line is you’re to comfortable Coach and it shows by the team you put out there. Ask yourself a question if Jack Kent Cook was owner and it was 1980 would you have MB as your starter. Or would you make the hard choices and bench him.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

I'll put it on the D right now, by a hair over Brunell. The Dallas game will tell us a lot about whom to blame between these two though. The D will have 6 starters healthy and hopefully ready to play (Griffin, Salavea, Marshall, Washington, Springs, and Rogers) with two weeks to prepare for a Dallas team that will be coming here after traveling to Carolina.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=TAFKAS;232837]What I'm saying is suppose Campbell comes out there and he's throwing the same passes, 3 step drop and screen. And we see that whoever is at QB we're still running the same offense, then who do we blame-Gibbs, Saunders, Campbell, the O-line? All I'm saying is we all assume that Campbell is going to come in and launch bombs all game long, but isn't it entirely possible that may not be the case?[/quote]

If you've heard any of Saunders' comments, he's constantly talking about limiting his play calling. He doesn't directly say that Brunell can't handle it, but he says things like "Mark is good at shorter passes and quick drops" i.e. he can't throw deep. I'm positive that a lot of it is play calling, but it's directly related to Brunell's ability. I don't think Saunders would refrain from calling long passes with Campbell in the lineup.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

First of all, Campbell is not a cure-all. I've said plenty of times he doesn't translate to wins. What it means is that since they're going to lose, they'll now lose with a purpose so that a 22/23 year old can learn how to play. Not for a 36 year old to try to learn how to play QB in this system. They're 2-5, they're not going to make the playoffs. Everyone can try to feed me this bs about being 2.5 games back of Philly. Well, the Skins have yet to win 3 games this season against a few mediocre teams so far. So, what makes everyone think they'd somehow make up 3 games against Philly? Cause they play them twice? Well, the d stops no one and the O doesn't put points on the board...that doesn't translate to many wins.

I'm not saying that it is all on Mark Brunell. However, he's the only change that can be made. You can't replace 11 guys on defense. You're not gonna find replacements for everyone playing poorly on defense. You can replace the quarterback, if for nothing else, just ot let the kid learn how to play in the NFL. That's what's important now, getting Campbell ready to play. Leaving Mark in is just stupid.

Now, to absolve Mark Brunell from blame is wrong. I don't understand how anyone can watch that game and think "if they stretched the field they wouldn't be a better team." The defense is bad, so you have to put up points to win. Does anyone ever see a defense's win-loss record? No, but guess what you do see...a quarterback's win-loss record. Mark Brunell's with the Skins? 16-21. That's bad. If he were young I'd say he's developing, but he's old, so he's regressing. There is no reason to leave him in. They could have gone 2-5 with Campbell. And Brunell didn't show me anything that Campbell couldn't have done yesterday. I don't watch Brunell and even think that I can't make the throws he's making. It's embarassing.

Tom Jackson regularly references "the eye test." That's his football eye, Mark Brunell doesn't pass that. Hell, Aikman (a pretty damn good qb in his day) was wondering aloud why Brunell kept checking the damn ball down. So, I would say that's someone around the league that doesn't think he's getting the job done. Oh, and Shannon Sharpe called him out last week. He doesn't think he's getting it done either.

To the question as to what I would think if Campbell came in and did the same thing? I'd blame the coaches. However, I don't believe that Saunders' offense is all checkdowns and screens. I refuse to believe it. Maybe they'd put Jason in and leave the training wheels on for a while so they would be short passes, but I'll be really disappointed. If this is the offense, there's something wrong. I'd say heads should roll, but that doesn't usually help build stability (not the Skins strong point recently). However, I think Gibbs is smart enough to know that you [B]can't win in the NFL throwing that many short passes.[/B]

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=Southpaw;233033]If you've heard any of Saunders' comments, he's constantly talking about limiting his play calling. He doesn't directly say that Brunell can't handle it, but he says things like "Mark is good at shorter passes and quick drops" i.e. he can't throw deep. I'm positive that a lot of it is play calling, but it's directly related to Brunell's ability. I don't think Saunders would refrain from calling long passes with Campbell in the lineup.[/quote]

saunders is just covering his @$$. he's already implied he can be vetoed, that brunell isn't any good, that campbell is stupid, that he can't run his offense, the whole portis taking himself out of games things (only AFTER the 3rd down wasn't converted, not before), said that the playbook wasn't being used (AFTER people complained in preseason), and complained that he couldn't see the players in preseason (AFTER they fell flat in week 1), and complained that the talent isn't there.

if you need an excuse, he's the guy to ask.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

maybe thats the reason the guy cant get a head coaching job. not ready to accept any responsibility for anything. i guess that 700 page playbook is second only to the bible:)

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

Last time i checked Saunders system worked pretty good other places. The other places had the right qb though.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=That Guy;233046]saunders is just covering his @$$. he's already implied he can be vetoed, that brunell isn't any good, that campbell is stupid, that he can't run his offense, the whole portis taking himself out of games things (only AFTER the 3rd down wasn't converted, not before), said that the playbook wasn't being used (AFTER people complained in preseason), and complained that he couldn't see the players in preseason (AFTER they fell flat in week 1), and complained that the talent isn't there.

if you need an excuse, he's the guy to ask.[/QUOTE]

Saunders is making excuses, but there's some validity to them. Do you really think Brunell is capable of throwing intermediate to deep passes with any reliability?

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;232940]Okay, but all justifications aside, why is he still the 11th rated QB in the 6th rated offense? You make him sound like a horrid player. I'd say as bad as you make his tendencies sound, he's still quite effective against NFL defenses.[/QUOTE]

What 6th rated offense?

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;233118]Saunders is making excuses, but there's some validity to them. Do you really think Brunell is capable of throwing intermediate to deep passes with any reliability?[/quote]

there has to be, or else he wouldn't make them. it's just nice how he always has an answer as to why it's not his fault only after the fact.

Re: It's not Brunell's fault!
 

The Hell It's Not Screw Brunell And Gibbs Old People Don't Win Superbowl's Especailly At The Qb Position, Unless Your Name In Bret Favre And Mark Is Not Favre