Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=PennSkinsFan;520072]Errrr. We have to get 'football guys' first! I don't qualify Vinny for that![/quote]

Errrr. If you look at the post I was responding to you'd understand why my response was worded the way it was. But I do agree that the Skins dont have any football guys in positions that matter in the FO.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;520058]Let's disregard 2001 because that was clearly Marty's year and Cerrato wasn't even there.

But let's also not act like the Redskins are ignoring the lines either. You can make the argument that they're not effectively addressing the lines, but I think it's wrong to simply say they're ignoring them. Or to pretend that all we do is go after WRs

Dating back to 2002 we have drafted 4 WRs, 6 OL, and 4 DL.

Additionally, besides going after Moss, Patten, ARE, and Lloyd we have gone after [B]Andre Carter, Pete Kendall, Jason Taylor, Todd Wade, Jason Fabini, Chris Wilson (plus UDFAs Alex Buzbee and Stephon Heyer)[/B]

All which leads me to two points

[B]1. We are definitely not ignoring the trenches, we're just not addressing them correctly[/B]

2. Scott Campbell should be held largely accountable for a lot of the late round misses due to his time serving as the team's Director of College Scouting. So I'm not sure I can or should continue to defend his ascension up the Redskins food chain.[/quote]

Addressing your lines in the draft doesn't consist of drafting Montgomery 5th and Golston in the 6th round of the draft. I like these guys as Redskins but they aren't exactly dominators of the game. On offense drafting Heyer, or the lack thereof since he was an undrafted free agent, doesn't count either.

Addressing a position should entail making it proficiently sound enough to stand on its own. I can even think of a OL or DL, under Snyderatto, that has been selected within the first 3 rounds (save Reinhardt).

Samuels was selected at LT with a first round pick. That position has not needed to be addressed for the last 10 years. Our lines are inefficient and need to be addressed with Day One draft talent. Until then they won't be considered addressed.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;520092]Addressing your lines in the draft doesn't consist of drafting Montgomery 5th and Golston in the 6th round of the draft. I like these guys as Redskins but they aren't exactly dominators of the game. On offense drafting Heyer, or the lack thereof since he was an undrafted free agent, doesn't count either.

Addressing a position should entail making it proficiently sound enough to stand on its own. I can even think of a OL or DL, under Snyderatto, that has been selected within the first 3 rounds (save Reinhardt).

Samuels was selected at LT with a first round pick. That position has not needed to be addressed for the last 10 years. Our lines are inefficient and need to be addressed with Day One draft talent. Until then they won't be considered addressed.[/quote]

I can't tell if you actually read my post or not

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;520095]I can't tell if you actually read my post or not[/quote]

Yeah I did, but I just don't think the signing of several half-rate FA's (save Carter) is addressing and the position proprotion draft stats you showed were bias.

Bottom line we have not focused the direction of our team to be line centric. We love the skill player and are perpetually attracted to the glitz potential a star player can bring.


I like the recent Washingotn Post article about Sherman Smith and his remarks about the Titans. Following a tempalte like that should allow us to consistently win.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

i think what smootsmack is saying is that we havent ignored our O line, just havent addressed the situation properly . .

what skinnytee is saying is that by not drafting day one O line talent we have ignored the situation . .

kind of a fine line difference in definition i suppose . . i do hope we use the 13th pick on a top end talent instead of trading back and ending up with solid but not great talent. our team is full of solid but not great talent. yeah i know you can find pro-bowl players in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and no 1st rounder is guaranteed to be a pro-bowler but id take 1 top tier talent over 2 could be's at this point.

go skins!!

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;520100]Yeah I did, but I just don't think the signing of several half-rate FA's (save Carter) is addressing and the position proprotion draft stats you showed were bias.

Bottom line we have not focused the direction of our team to be line centric. We love the skill player and are perpetually attracted to the glitz potential a star player can bring.


I like the recent Washingotn Post article about Sherman Smith and his remarks about the Titans. Following a tempalte like that should allow us to consistently win.[/quote]

My point was that they have invested heavily throught trades and free agency in our lines. For every Moss, Lloyd, Patten, and Randle El there is a Kendall, Carter, Griffin, and Jason Taylor. Additionally, they have addressed the lines through the draft and undrafted free agents as they've felt best (I'm not even accounting for times when they might have wanted to draft a DE, such as Gaines Adams, but couldn't; because that's all highly speculative). So I don't believe the issue is complete ignorance of the problem, it's "misunderestimation" of the problem or ineffective management of the problem.

I love having guys like Montgomery and Alexander on the team, but yeah in a perfect world those guys are strong backups.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;520058]Let's disregard 2001 because that was clearly Marty's year and Cerrato wasn't even there.

But let's also not act like the Redskins are ignoring the lines either. You can make the argument that they're not effectively addressing the lines, but I think it's wrong to simply say they're ignoring them. Or to pretend that all we do is go after WRs

Dating back to 2002 we have drafted 4 WRs, 6 OL, and 4 DL.

Additionally, besides going after Moss, Patten, ARE, and Lloyd we have gone after Andre Carter, Pete Kendall, Jason Taylor, Todd Wade, Jason Fabini, Chris Wilson (plus UDFAs Alex Buzbee and Stephon Heyer)

All which leads me to two points

1. We are definitely not ignoring the trenches, we're just not addressing them correctly

2. Scott Campbell should be held largely accountable for a lot of the late round misses due to his time serving as the team's Director of College Scouting. So I'm not sure I can or should continue to defend his ascension up the Redskins food chain.[/quote]OK, let's disregard 2001 as Marty calling the shots. Since then we have drafted [B]only two[/B] linemen earlier than the 4th round (Dockery in 2002 and Rinehart in 2008, both 3rd rounders). During that period, we have drafted the following non-linemen in the 1st three rounds:

WR (4) - Cliff Russell, Taylor Jacobs, Devin Thomas, Malcolm Kelly
DB (4) - Rashad Bauman, Sean Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Laron Landry
TE (2) - Chris Cooley, Fred Davis
QB (2) - Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell
RB (1) - Ladell Betts
LB (1) - Rocky McIntosh

Fourteen perimeter/skill position players vs. just two linemen is a disproportionate use of high draft choices, and it is the biggest reason that we are mired in mediocrity. Both NY and Philly have invested high draft choices on linemen during that same period, and both have made deep runs in the playoffs. Coincidence? I think not.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=firstdown;519990]The same genius who had to have Brunell?[/quote]

Sticking with Brunell was a mistake I am not going to defend. None the less, Gibbs was the only coach to succeed under Snyder. In large part because Snyder did not interfere in the football operations ie picking players soley because they were a big name star.

If there was a proper GM here under Gibbs' second coming he would have been a lot more successful. As it stood Danny boy was largely responsible for some of the gaffs Joe suffered from, by not be able to supply him with all the tools he needed.

Once again how many of Snyder's past coaches have done as well as Gibbs? For that matter, lets see how well many of his future coaches do.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;520092]Addressing your lines in the draft doesn't consist of drafting Montgomery 5th and Golston in the 6th round of the draft. I like these guys as Redskins but they aren't exactly dominators of the game. On offense drafting Heyer, or the lack thereof since he was an undrafted free agent, doesn't count either.

Addressing a position should entail making it proficiently sound enough to stand on its own. [b] I can even think of a OL or DL, under Snyderatto, that has been selected within the first 3 rounds[/b] (save Reinhardt).

Samuels was selected at LT with a first round pick. That position has not needed to be addressed for the last 10 years. Our lines are inefficient and need to be addressed with Day One draft talent. Until then they won't be considered addressed.[/quote]
Dockery was a 3rd round pick. I forget if that was Marty or Spurrier though.

Either way, the whole OL argument is largely overblown. Look at the Steelers and Cards, their offensive lines were terrible this year. But, they have elite players at key positions to compensate for that. Who is the most dominant DL left in the playoffs, Hatoli Ngata? Again, overblown when you have elite players who can compensate. We lack elite players and an elite scheme.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;520108]Dockery was a 3rd round pick. I forget if that was Marty or Spurrier though.

Either way, the whole OL argument is largely overblown. Look at the Steelers and Cards, their offensive lines were terrible this year. But, they have elite players at key positions to compensate for that. Who is the most dominant DL left in the playoffs, Hatoli Ngata? Again, overblown when you have elite players who can compensate. We lack elite players and an elite scheme.[/quote]

At times Pitts oline was terrible but they've come together as of late. They are run blocking well, too.

Ngata is pretty good.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=redsk1;520112]At times Pitts oline was terrible but they've come together as of late. They are run blocking well, too.

Ngata is pretty good.[/quote]

No disagreement on either point. My point was the whole mantra of 'linemen, linemen, linemen' is largely irrelevant without elite players at the other positions and vice versa, elite players at the other positions largely make having great linemen somewhat irrelevant.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Paintrain;520108]Dockery was a 3rd round pick. I forget if that was Marty or Spurrier though.

Either way, the whole OL argument is largely overblown. Look at the Steelers and Cards, their offensive lines were terrible this year. But, they have elite players at key positions to compensate for that. Who is the most dominant DL left in the playoffs, Hatoli Ngata? Again, overblown when you have elite players who can compensate. We lack elite players and an elite scheme.[/quote]

Yeah I forgot about him but that is moot being that he left without us getting any compensation for him.


At least if our offensive line was solid we would be able to see which skill player is the liability. Making a mistake on a major skill player in the offseason is more finanicially damning than poorly drafting OL high in the draft.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;520121]Yeah I forgot about him but that is moot being that he left without us getting any compensation for him.[/quote]

The Redskins received a 3rd round pick (96th overall) for losing Dockery.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80780d69&template=with-video&confirm=true]NFL announces 32 compensatory picks for 15 teams[/url]

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520126]The Redskins received a 3rd round pick (96th overall) for losing Dockery.

[URL="http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80780d69&template=with-video&confirm=true"]NFL announces 32 compensatory picks for 15 teams[/URL][/quote]

I considered that but didn't mention it because it wasn't a direct result of him moving from the team in a trade.

Check this link out...
[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/was.htm"][COLOR=navy]http://www.pro-football-reference.com/draft/was.htm[/COLOR][/URL]

we haven't drafted a OL in the first round since the year 2000..."In the year two thoouuuuuuuu-sund!, In the year two thouuuuuuuuu-SUND!"... Lots of things have changed since then. In that time we've all gone broke and every toddler now has a cellphone. Our team is in need of some homegrown hogs to pride ourselves in. We've missed out on some top level OL talent for the last decade. It's time we get our up and commins'.


It's funny how everyone cites the Skins to use the blueprint of our Super Bowl runs years ago. They calmour to bring back Gibbs, the modern day form of the smurfs in Moss and Randle El, and the counter-tre formations but no one ever talks about investing high round draft picks on OL to build our next competitive foundation like the hogs.

Just like Pittsburgh is known for its elite LB's the Washington Redskins should be known for their superior OL.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Mattyk72;520126]The Redskins received a 3rd round pick (96th overall) for losing Dockery.

[url=http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80780d69&template=with-video&confirm=true]NFL announces 32 compensatory picks for 15 teams[/url][/quote]

We got Rinehardt with that pick correct?

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

I agree that Dan Snyder may not be the best owner. But at the same time I still like the fact that he seems to be very determined to win. Snyder may not always go the best way about trying to win but atleast he has the desire. On the flip side I'm an O's fan as well, and Pete Angelos is a stingy bum who won't spend a nickel to get the O's better, no matter how embarassing the team is. Atleast I see an eagerness in Dan Snyder to win.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

Hopefully he will learn that if he's not careful 0-16 could be lurking

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Joe Bugel is now part of the problem. I heard him on one of the Redskins show's durn training camp that our O line was looking very strong and blowing guys off the ball. He thought that the line was going to be a strength of the Skins. Maybe he thinks that this veterain line is good and points to injuries over the past couple of years as our problem. He has been here sense 2004 and maybe he has not pushed hard enough for us to draft any O Line players and felt what we had would do. Now I do remember that Vinny wanted a lineman this year in the draft but the ones we wanted where gone by the time we had our pick. So who really knows who is at fault for not drafting any O line.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=firstdown;520279]Has anyone ever thought that maybe Joe Bugel is now part of the problem. I heard him on one of the Redskins show's durn training camp that our O line was looking very strong and blowing guys off the ball. He thought that the line was going to be a strength of the Skins. Maybe he thinks that this veterain line is good and points to injuries over the past couple of years as our problem. He has been here sense 2004 and maybe he has not pushed hard enough for us to draft any O Line players and felt what we had would do. Now I do remember that Vinny wanted a lineman this year in the draft but the ones we wanted where gone by the time we had our pick. So who really knows who is at fault for not drafting any O line.[/quote]

I love Bugel but I wish all of Gibbs' coaches had be let go when Zorn came in so that the slate could be wiped clean.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=irish;520295]I love Bugel but I wish all of Gibbs' coaches had be let go when Zorn came in so that the slate could be wiped clean.[/quote]
If they are going to let him go, I hope they do it......tactfully. I would hate for Buges to get hurt to much!

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Hog1;520298]If they are going to let him go, I hope they do it......tactfully. I would hate for Buges to get hurt to much![/quote]

I agree. Buges is great. I hope I have his energy when I get to his age.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;520176]It's funny how everyone cites the Skins to use the blueprint of our Super Bowl runs years ago. They calmour to bring back Gibbs, the modern day form of the smurfs in Moss and Randle El, and the counter-tre formations [B]but no one ever talks about investing high round draft picks on OL to build our next competitive foundation like the hogs.[/B][/quote]
First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;520313]First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th[/quote]

I've tried addressing this latter point on multiple occassions and it constantly falls on deaf ears (or I guess blind eyes in our world). People think that Jacoby, Starke, etc. walked in as The Hogs. Not true, they became The Hogs.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;520313]First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th[/quote]

Nice insight.

The Skins have selected some lineman in the last ten years, that is a given, but like I said before, we can't look at Super Bowl years and recapture it by mimicking those individual transactions. Major changes to the game, like Free Agency and having a higher class of athletes, make those strategies archaic. We obviously can't use low draft picks like they did in the past, that is obsolete in this environment.

What we can do is see that our past teams had strong and deep lines that dominated the competitive games they played. Let's take that and implement that foundational idea to the modern era, as opposed to finding a replicate Monk or Gibbs.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;520329]we can't look at Super Bowl years and recapture it by mimicking those individual transactions. Major changes to the game, like Free Agency and having a higher class of athletes, make those strategies archaic. We obviously can't use low draft picks like they did in the past, that is obsolete in this environment.

What we can do is see that our past teams had strong and deep lines that dominated the competitive games they played. Let's take that and implement that foundational idea to the modern era, as opposed to finding a replicate Monk or Gibbs.[/quote]
I think we agree that a SB level team needs to be top 10 level on the OL and top 10 in defense (which starts on the DL). We're just looking at it from slightly different angles. I just don't think things are as easy as saying Snyderatto is the root of all evil and must be exorcised (I'm not suggesting that you're saying this).

When Gibbs came in we were a disaster. In his four years we made the playoff twice. Not too bad IMO. When Gibbs left we had the following issues to address:

In addition to a new Offensive and Defensive system....
1) DL needed a LDE and DT
2) Mcintosh knees were a question
3) Washington was starting to show signs of aging
4) A young, top 5 defensive player had just been tragically taken from us.
5) Springs' health
6) Rogers health/abilities were in question

7) Developing QB going into another new offense
8) no quality WR over 5' 9"
9) OL that appeared fairly solid, but was aging. Several veterans had either signed new deals or restructures limiting their movement/release.

No way all those issues would be addressed in one year. What happened:

1) No LDE or DT that was highly rated was available when we picked. Unless I'm mistaken none of the DL that we passed over made an impact this year. Our projected starting DE is out for the year in training camp so Cerrato makes a move in desperation that is boom or bust, unfortunately it busts. I don't think many foresaw how poorly Taylor would play this year. I was hesitant with his move to LDE and felt he would be a liability against the run, but I thought he still had some pass rush left (unfortunately I was wrong on the pass rush part).
2) McIntosh rebounded a bit but will not develop into a superstar, just a solid LB.
3) Washington's age caught up to him and he's defintely in the twilight of his career
4) Landry moves to FS, plays well. Cerrato finds a gem in Horton in the late rounds of the draft.
5) Springs' health/cap number are still an issue, however Cerrato brings in Hall.
6) Rogers has a solid season and answers most doubters.

7) Campbell improves and puts up excellent numbers until the OL breaks down mid-season. His QB rating overall was up over 7 points from last year even with a weaker OL. This is in no small part to Zorn's coaching.
8) Drafted two WRs who should develop into starting NFL WRs, one 6'2", the other 6'4"
9) Rinehardt drafted 3rd round. Heyer developing. OL age catches up to them and we need to rebuild faster than anticipated. Currently we have solid depth but need a starting C, and either a starting G or T.

My point is, the FO isn't as stupid and incompetent as some would like to make it seem. Nor is the coaching staff. Many analysts had us in the 6-10 range this season. If we are able to address 70% of the holes on the OL & DL this off-season we should be very competitive in 2009 & 2010.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=firstdown;520279][B]Has anyone ever thought that maybe Joe Bugel is now part of the problem.[/B] I heard him on one of the Redskins show's durn training camp that our O line was looking very strong and blowing guys off the ball. He thought that the line was going to be a strength of the Skins. Maybe he thinks that this veterain line is good and points to injuries over the past couple of years as our problem. He has been here sense 2004 and maybe he has not pushed hard enough for us to draft any O Line players and felt what we had would do. Now I do remember that Vinny wanted a lineman this year in the draft but the ones we wanted where gone by the time we had our pick. So who really knows who is at fault for not drafting any O line.[/quote]

Yes. But i've been hesitant to say anything because 1) Buges has almost legendary status w/ a lot of fans 2) I don't how much his truly tragic personal life issues had to do w/ the o-lines horrendous performance. I will say that last year after Thomas/Jansen went down I thought the line was decent considering our backups, but I thought it critical we add young talent that could make an impact. When the FO didn't get that done (who knows where Rinhardt is in his development) I knew it would be on Buges to make miracles happen w/ an old creaky group. There were no miracles: this is the smallest, slowest and oldest line in the NFC east and it shows every minute of the game.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

It's sad to hear us defending the FO and/or Snyder by saying they're not completely bad. That's the point: we're a MEDIOCRE franchise at best. The proof is in the pudding, folks. And the pudding doesn't taste good. In any other business, the board of directors would fire the CEO and try someone new. And Snyder IS the CEO, period. Whether Snyder is making personnel decisions 100% or only 70% is beside the point. He hasn't established a good system in Washington -- we're almost as dysfunctional as it gets in the NFL, save a few real train wrecks. This article speaks the truth.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;520313]First, I agree we need to rebuild the OL & DL. But I would argue the OL was addressed, through Free Agency and by in-house high round picks. Unfortunately, father time caught up with us about 12 weeks too early.

Samuels - 1st Rounder
Jansen - early 2nd rounder
Rabach - 3rd rounder, FA pick-up
Thomas - 2nd rounder, FA pick-up
Kendall - 1st rounder, FA pick-up

Also to dispell any misconceptions, the Hogs were built by Bethard/Gibbs/Bugel through the later rounds and from Bugel's great coaching, not high draft picks. Lachey and May were the exceptions:

Lachey - 1st
May - 1st
Jacoby - Undrafted
Grimm - 3rd
McKenzie - 11th
Schlereth - 10th
Simmons - 6th
Bostic - Undrafted
Starke - 11th[/quote]

I agree, but that includes picks over 20 years ago.. and many diff offensive and defensive schemes have come around since

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=tryfuhl;520383]I agree, but that includes picks over 20 years ago.. and many diff offensive and defensive schemes have come around since[/quote]

I'm not following your argument here

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;520385]I'm not following your argument here[/quote]
OL is becoming almost a skill position with the assignments and more complex schemes which they've had to run and defend against. It's not as much of a push with power position as it used to be.. granted that's still a huge thing no doubt

The position has grown up.. that's not to take anything away from the Hogs, they deserve HOF.. all of them.. just nowadays you need guys that are more athletic and can do more things.. you can't play drunk in the NFL anymore and just pound beer after practice and still be top caliber

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=tryfuhl;520387]OL is becoming almost a skill position with the assignments and more complex schemes which they've had to run and defend against. It's not as much of a push with power position as it used to be.. granted that's still a huge thing no doubt

The position has grown up.. that's not to take anything away from the Hogs, they deserve HOF.. all of them.. just nowadays you need guys that are more athletic and can do more things.. you can't play drunk in the NFL anymore and just pound beer after practice and still be top caliber[/quote]

I do think some franchises were ahead of the curve in "quietly" drafting/developing/keeping extremely skilled o-lineman the NFL's latest era. To my knowledge our team has Samuels as its only accomplishment in this category: i don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the simple fact we need to do a better job of this.

Re: The Real Problem of the Redskins ...
 

[quote=The Goat;520393]I do think some franchises were ahead of the curve in "quietly" drafting/developing/keeping extremely skilled o-lineman the NFL's latest era. To my knowledge our team has Samuels as its only accomplishment in this category: i don't think anyone can reasonably argue against the simple fact we need to do a better job of this.[/quote]

Yep :)