Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

So people should just be allowed to break contracts with no consequence? In what reality does this happen?

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Mattyk72;584202]So people should just be allowed to break contracts with no consequence? In what reality does this happen?[/quote]

Playing devil's advocate here, Baltimore said if they have someone cancel seasons tickets they don't sue and just give it to the next guy.

I'm not saying the person shouldn't be held responsible here, they should, they signed a contract. But I just don't think slapping a $60k judgement on someone is the best idea in the world. How about a "breaking your contract" clause? Maybe a 1 year fee? Just a thought. Kinda like a rental agreement. It's a 12 months lease w/ a 2 month penalty for breaking it.

It's w/n their right and i'm sure some other teams do it. I just think the Skins (The Danny) needs to build up a little bit of good will in the area and this isn't exactly the way to do it.

I also understand the corporate seat/suites might be handled a little different too.

I have 2 rentals. If someone has been a good tenant and they want to break their lease I charge them 2 months unless someone rents it sooner and I'll help them out a little. So, if i get someone in there in a month, I'll only charge them 1 months rent (the unrented time). I don't have to but if they've been good, paid well, then i'm ok w/ it.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Mattyk72;584202]So people should just be allowed to break contracts with no consequence? In what reality does this happen?[/quote]

Like I said, this isnt a car dealership or furniture store, its different. Its way more about public sentiment and goodwill than $. Not that $ isnt important but IMO its secondary to fan support and public goodwill. The Skins say they have a 160k person waiting list and if the demand for tix is so high they wouldnt have any problem selling these tix (as they did after the judgement) so I dont see why they would create all these public bad feelings for something they can easily sell to the next guy in line. For the Redskins, this wasnt a battle worth fighting.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Mattyk72;584202]So people should just be allowed to break contracts with no consequence? In what reality does this happen?[/quote]

According to the article, it is a reality for every other team in the NFL besides the Washington Redskins. New England sues its fans, but only in rare cases.

I guess what people don't like is that they are suing the fans over seats the fans never got or used.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

under contract law in maryland, parties are under an implied agreement to mitigate damages.

that means if someone defaults on their skins season ticket contract, the skins are under an obligation to try and re-sell those seats. if they can then the damages should be reduced to the skins actual damages.

people get a lawyer and show up to court. dont let the skins get a default judgment on you. the skins attorneys know better.

the law is very clear on this . . unless there is a specific clause in their contracts but i would argue (probably successfully) that the clause in unconscionable and not enforceable.

go skins!! screw the danny.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

I'm not saying it's the best course of action to sue fans, but I can also see the legal side of things. A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It should also be noted the Skins don't sue everyone, they do try to work deals out and as the article points out.

[QUOTE]"The Washington Redskins routinely works out payment plans and alternate arrangements with hundreds of ticket holders every year," Donovan said. "For every one we sue, I would guess we work out a deal with half a dozen."

Donovan said the team has agreed to reduce the number of seats in a contract, waived contracts for a year, shortened contracts and terminated contracts early. Most of the lawsuits are filed after people "simply refuse to negotiate with us. They've been made an offer, but they just said no," he said.[/QUOTE]

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

Of course, you have the case with the guy whose contract was altered by the Redskins after he signed it. That is blatant fraud.

Then you have the case where people who negotiated a year to year contract but later found out they had a six year contract. They are fully responsible because they signed the contract and should have read it. But, it is still fraud commited by the ticket office (I doubt it is legal to tell someone they are signing something that they are not). But this type of fraud is very hard to prove because of the signed contract.

The point being is that you have all these cases of fans getting suckered that ranges from slimy sales techniques to unprovable fraud to blatant provable fraud. It seems obvious to me that the pressure or incentive to sell these seats in the ticket office encourages all these activities. They are all one in the same.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=souperbad;584223]According to the article, it is a reality for every other team in the NFL besides the Washington Redskins. New England sues its fans, but only in rare cases.

I guess what people don't like is that they are suing the fans over seats the fans never got or used.[/quote]

Here is what the article said:
[quote]But spokesmen for the following National Football League teams said they do not sue their fans over season ticket contracts: Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals, Green Bay Packers, Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, New York Giants and Jets, Seattle Seahawks and Tennessee Titans.

The New England Patriots have sued multiyear premium ticket holders. A Chicago Bears spokesman said, "In rare instances, we have sued."

[B]Officials with the Arizona Cardinals, Denver Broncos, Minnesota Vikings, Dallas Cowboys, Miami Dolphins, San Francisco 49ers and Indianapolis Colts declined to comment on the query. Other teams did not respond. [/B][/quote]

I would guess the no responses or declines are probably actually saying "yes we do sue,but we don't want our local paper running this type story".

still mudraking

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;584244]Here is what the article said:


I would guess the no responses or declines are probably actually saying "yes we do sue,but we don't want our local paper running this type story".

still mudraking[/quote]

Agreed. I just find it hard to believe the Skins are the only big bad bully on the block.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203887.html?hpid=topnews]washingtonpost.com[/url]

I don't get it. For team that is Forbes #2 most profitable NFL Team, and proudly boast about how much revenue they generate. Now they are suing a 72 year old grandmother who was suddenly hit by the hard economic times. Classy.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Mattyk72;584255]Agreed. I just find it hard to believe the Skins are the only big bad bully on the block.[/quote]

I dont think the Skins are the only big bad bully on the block but I think they are the biggest and baddest.

I agree the Skins seem to try to work out deals but you cant get blood out of a stone. If the people dont have the $ then they dont have the $. The easiest and best course of action for the Skins is to wish those folks well, send them on their way, and sell the tix to someone else. In the end I just dont see what the Skins gained by handling these cases the way they did. They got a few thousand $ and a whole lot of bad publicity. IMO the former isnt worth more than the latter.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Defensewins;584279][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/02/AR2009090203887.html?hpid=topnews]washingtonpost.com[/url]

I don't get it. For team that is Forbes #2 most profitable NFL Team, and proudly boast about how much revenue they generate. Now they are suing a 72 year old grandmother who was suddenly hit by the hard economic times. Classy.[/quote]

Since DS took ownership of the team, classy isnt a word that associated with the Redskins anymore.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

Amen brother.
What are these guys thinking. You know, I used to think it was Cerratto that used to make all the dumb moves. But now this proves it not Cerratto, it is Snyder. I hope Snyder has good body guards. He is going to get his ass kicked. GREEDY little bitch!

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=irish;584281]Since DS took ownership of the team, classy isnt a word that associated with the Redskins anymore.[/quote]

They weren't exactly a beacon of class before Snyder either. The Redskins run a tough business, which is what they are-a business. It's a game to the fans, but that's not reality

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

Ridiculous to hate on Snyder for utilizing standard business practices. But not really surprising.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=SmootSmack;584284]They weren't exactly a beacon of class before Snyder either. The Redskins run a tough business, which is what they are-a business. It's a game to the fans, but that's not reality[/quote]

It is a business but its a different kind of business. One for the business between owner & player, and another for the organization & fan. I think the former is more like a business we are used to (car dealer, etc.) and the latter is more like a public relations group.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;584287]Ridiculous to hate on Snyder for utilizing standard business practices. But not really surprising.[/quote]

I am not hating on Snyder, I am hating on his decision to sue a 72 year old grandmother and life long/die hard Redskins fan that no longer has the money to afford her tickets. This women did not even have enough money for a lawyer.
Here at my arena, we had a dozen or so big corporations that had signed multi-year corporate deals (sponsorships and/or advertising deals) go belly up during this recent recession. We did not sue them. I think your 'standard business practices' is a little bit of an over generalization.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Defensewins;584294]I am not hating on Snyder, I am hating on his decision to sue a 72 year old grandmother and life long/die hard Redskins fan that no longer has the money to afford her tickets. This women did not even have enough money for a lawyer.
Here at my arena, we had a dozen or so big corporations that had signed multi-year corporate deals (sponsorships and/or advertising deals) go belly up during this recent recession. We did not sue them. I think your 'standard business practices' is a little bit of an over generalization.[/quote]

How did you guys handle it?

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Defensewins;584294]I am not hating on Snyder, I am hating on his decision to sue a 72 year old grandmother and life long/die hard Redskins fan that no longer has the money to afford her tickets. This women did not even have enough money for a lawyer.
Here at my arena, we had a dozen or so big corporations that had signed multi-year corporate deals (sponsorships and/or advertising deals) go belly up during this recent recession. We did not sue them. I think your 'standard business practices' is a little bit of an over generalization.[/quote]
Your 72 yo grandmother had over 100,000 dollars in debt not just to the Redskins. I think alot of my disdain in this goes back to how the media spins things. Do you really think this is all the story behind it? I read the opening paragraphs, and the lil ole grandmother, and I felt like the Post was just trying to do a hatchet job. I have no idea if there was sufficient justification, or what steps the Skins did or didn't do to resolve it without a lawsuit. But this lady wasn't some helpless clueless grandma sitting down and knitting sweaters. She was a real estate agent. She dealt with contracts for her livelihood.

As to the fact that the Skins maybe do this the most, could it be because they have the largest ticket base. if they do 20 lawsuits for 20000 club seats(just simplifying the numbers) thats 1 for every 1000 CLUB seats. How many club seats does Gillette stadium have? or any other stadium.

This article was written with one intent, paint as sympathetic view of the people who broke the contract, and as antagonistic view of the Skins business practice, as possible. There was little if any attempt to portray a balanced viewpoint, and it was relatively lazy journalism.
I say lazy journalism, because lawsuits are public domain. Instead of just accepting a no answer or decline to comment, pull up the records. Did Dallas do this same tactic. What about teams that have the top 10 # of club level seats? Were the Skins the only ones, or did 6 other teams that have large stadiums file lawsuits. What steps did the Redskins offer the 72 year old grandmother. Why did she not go to court and dispute it - I want say again, she was a very successful real estate agent who dealt with contracts mortgage lending, etc. not a stay at home, unsure of the banking and finance.

This article smacks of the media's intent to shape opinions rather than report facts in an unbiased manor.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=SmootSmack;584298]How did you guys handle it?[/quote]

We eventually found other companies to replace the ones we lost. It might have taken a little bit of time and in the end some of the new deals were not as sweet as the old ones we lost. But overall we are fine. Here in Houston, like Washington DC, there is money. The recession did not hit as hard as other parts of the country like Detroit. The Redskins will find people to buy their seats and if they don't maybe they are charging more than the market is willing to pay.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=Defensewins;584308]We eventually found other companies to replace the ones we lost. It might have taken a little bit of time and in the end some of the new deals were not as sweet as the old ones we lost. But overall we are fine. Here in Houston, like Washington DC, there is money. The recession did not hit as hard as other parts of the country like Detroit. The Redskins will find people to buy their seats and if they don't maybe they are charging more than the market is willing to pay.[/quote]

I agree, the Skins had so many other options besides suing that I just cant understand why they chose to fight these people and lose even when they "won".

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

New article in the Post about how the Redskins are not making Grandma pay her judgement. The he said/ she said between Donovon and Grandma are quite funny.

The Redskins say that their decision to not collect from Grandma has nothing to do with the recent string of articles. If you believe that...I have some club seats to sell you.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

Let's get one thing straight here that is being ignored by many.

The "waiting list", 160,000 strong or completely fairyland fake, is irrelevant.

They, as I understand it, are suing over club-level ticket contracts. These tickets have not ever been sold out in the history of the stadium. There is no magical group of eager patrons just waiting for the opportunity to buy these. In fact all these recent stories about the team marketing tickets that would seem to contradict the idea of a giant waiting list are in fact them trying to sell the club-level tickets. So we need to back off the the theory that they could just easily go find others to buy the tickets. The breach of contract represents a real loss in revenue for the team.

I also think CRedskinsRule is almost totally right. The only thing he has wrong is that he is being too nice. The WaPo has a long standing and documented feud with the team. In fact a large part of the feud involves the loss of their block of tickets since they were abusing them (and the team just didn't like their coverage). In essence the piece was a total hatchet job in every conceivable way as CRR pointed out. Are there threads of interests within the article? Maybe, but they weren't explored in a complete or balanced fashion at all.

I am not necessarily defending the team actions as nice but they sure are legally suitable, financially reasonable and all-in-all they way business operates in this country.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

[quote=souperbad;584494]New article in the Post about how the Redskins are not making Grandma pay her judgement. The he said/ she said between Donovon and Grandma are quite funny.

The Redskins say that their decision to not collect from Grandma has nothing to do with the recent string of articles. If you believe that...I have some club seats to sell you.[/quote]


lol. They have just come to the decision to let this person off the hook. And they never worry about PR...

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

Another question here is why in the hell would you ever sign a 10-year contract for tickets? Are people really that desperate to go to every game? Pick up a few tickets per year on StubHub if you really want to go, or just get a good HDTV. Wow! And I think the suits attempting to collect the entire contract, without regards to actual damages (i.e. less whatever money is collected through re-sale) is bad business, and of questionable legality, but seriously people, don't sign a 10-year contract! That is just dumb.

Re: Skins sell ticket straight to scalpers
 

This was not at all a shocking revelation. The Redskins have been doing this for years. I don't buy for one second that they had no knowledge of this practice. It is just like Watergate, follow the money. You will see at the top is Dan Snyder pulling the strings. What is funny about this whole incident is that it brings me back to a time when Snyder was attempting to buy the team and apparently the NFL Didn't want Snyder's partner Milstein buying the team because of how he ran the NY Rangers into the ground with all kinds of bad financing. Now fast forward ten years later and Dan is accepting money from car dealerships like Eastern Motors and selling tickets on the secondary market and suing the fans for non-payment of long term contracts during a recession.
Yeah Dan is probably near the bottom when it comes to team ownership and structure.