Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Paintrain;589200]But Rogers is far from a shutdown corner. He's good, no doubt, but until last season he got toasted pretty consistently for big plays. His swagger always far exceeded his production.

He's got more excuses than interceptions. His latest: [B][I]Cornerback DeAngelo Hall(notes) confessed to having a subpar outing, and Rogers—who couldn’t get a grip on one that could have changed the game’s tone on the Giants’ first possession.

“I thought I had a shot at it, but I was facing that sun and that glare,” Rogers said.[/I][/B] So the sun was in your eyes but you got two hands on it and dropped it. Again. Interesting.

I think we can agree that for most of their respective careers that Hall has been on #1 WR and Rogers has been on #2 WR so you'd think the 1's are more apt to have deeper routes so that would make sense to have a higher YPA against.

I don't how you call a CB with 23 INT in 6 years not a playmaker but make excuses for one with 6 INT in 5 years. Who cares if he's the opportunistic type if he takes advantage of the opportunities. Rogers clearly does not.[/quote]Well, like I said, there's really no debate between them. You asserted that Hall was just as good of a cover guy as Rogers, but obviously that's not the case. I just gave you one number to support that, but theres 5-7 more I could dig through my records to find. It's not necessary though, we both know who the Giants were avoiding yesterday.

Where there's a lot more gray area is: how valuable are Hall's interceptions, given the fact that he's the target of most gameplan's by opponents over the last three seasons. If teams are trying to live off passes at Hall's receiver, regardless of who he is covering, there should be a reasonable expectations for INTs regardless of how adept the player is at creating oppertunities. And you'd expect a player like Hall to intercept more passes than a player like Rogers, talent aside.

But ~4.5 INTs/season is a lot more than ~1.7 INTs/season. The question is, how much more valuable given the context? And I don't have a really great mathmatical answer for this, but I suspect, given all the extra throws at a player like Hall, probably not very much. I'm open to other interpretations though.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

I didn't see the Philly game, but my understanding is Jackson was behind him wide open, and just missed the ball.


as for the rest if I had one play, one game, and I had to choose between Carlos and DHall to defend a TD pass, I would choose Carlos every time.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

There's also a lot of evidence to suggests that defenses can't do anything to create interception opportunities, and that they always regress to the mean every year. In this case, this would suggest the difference in INTs between Rogers and Hall are entirely circumstantial.

Of course, Rogers still obviously drops a higher percentage of his INTs, that's not at all in dispute. But how many of Hall's INTs are of the variety from Sunday: only there for the taking because it was thrown at a receiver he was lined up against, and someone else made the play?

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589205]Well, like I said, there's really no debate between them. You asserted that Hall was just as good of a cover guy as Rogers, but obviously that's not the case. I just gave you one number to support that, but theres 5-7 more I could dig through my records to find. It's not necessary though, we both know who the Giants were avoiding yesterday.

Where there's a lot more gray area is: how valuable are Hall's interceptions, given the fact that he's the target of most gameplan's by opponents over the last three seasons. If teams are trying to live off passes at Hall's receiver, regardless of who he is covering, there should be a reasonable expectations for INTs regardless of how adept the player is at creating oppertunities. And you'd expect a player like Hall to intercept more passes than a player like Rogers, talent aside.

But ~4.5 INTs/season is a lot more than ~1.7 INTs/season. The question is, how much more valuable given the context? And I don't have a really great mathmatical answer for this, but I suspect, given all the extra throws at a player like Hall, probably not very much. I'm open to other interpretations though.[/quote]

Maybe he's not "as good" (although I've never been a huge Rogers fan) I don't think the disparity is as wide as you portray in their coverage abilities. Opportunities are opportunities. Teams threw at Deion and Darrell Green until they gave them reasons not to in the way of interceptions. Ignoring the positive impact that interceptions can have is kinda silly. You're way smarter than that.

I don't have the statistical capabilities to show how many of Hall's INT led to points vs. the number of dropped Roger INT led to opponents points but obviously it would tilt towards Hall.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SmootSmack;588986]Definitely agree with that. And we need Hall on our defense because he seems to be our only threat to make a play (talking about the D Backs specifically). For all his faults, I have faith that he'll get an interception every time I see him out on defense. Rogers, on the other hand, who I think is a very efficient DB is never a threat to get an INT. And we need turnovers. So if Rogers can lock down one side and Hall can get me the INTs on the other side, I'm fine with that.

Springs could do both, but it's not 2004 anymore.[/quote]

Perfecto!!!

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589207]There's also a lot of evidence to suggests that defenses can't do anything to create interception opportunities, and that they always regress to the mean every year. In this case, this would suggest the difference in INTs between Rogers and Hall are entirely circumstantial.

Of course, Rogers still obviously drops a higher percentage of his INTs, that's not at all in dispute. But how many of Hall's INTs are of the variety from Sunday: only there for the taking because it was thrown at a receiver he was lined up against, and someone else made the play?[/quote]

I don't think it really matters. Ball+hands=catch. Who cares if it was tipped at the line, a blown route or a great break by the corner? Make the play.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

Here's my thinking, if JCutler were throwing int's into the hands of Hall - you know he likes to throw them right into the DB's hands ;) - Hall would catch 4 out of 4 last night, Rogers would have to catch one of those beauties wouldn't he?

:P its a new week, new opponent, who IS the Rams qb anyway?

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;589206]I didn't see the Philly game, but my understanding is Jackson was behind him wide open, and just missed the ball.


as for the rest if I had one play, one game, and I had to choose between Carlos and DHall to defend a TD pass, I would choose Carlos every time.[/quote]
So now we're dinging for 'almost' TD? How does that show in the paper? So in 7 games as a Redskin he almost got beat for one TD. He's GARBAGE!!

Would there be as much D. Hall hate if he grew up in Sedona, AZ and went to Central Michigan? I really doubt it.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Paintrain;589214]So now we're dinging for 'almost' TD? How does that show i the paper? So in 7 games as a Redskin he almost got beat for one TD. He's GARBAGE!!

Would there be as much D. Hall hate if he grew up in Sedona, AZ and went to Central Michigan? I really doubt it.[/quote]

Man you've got me wrong, I like the excitement DHall brings, I just think he can get beat a bit more often. Hands down he gives us a better shot at the interceptions from the pressure we hope to get.

As to where he grew up or went to, hell I could not tell you that for any of the skins, except maybe Orakpo, so what is that all about?

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;589215]Man you've got me wrong, I like the excitement DHall brings, I just think he can get beat a bit more often. Hands down he gives us a better shot at the interceptions from the pressure we hope to get.

As to where he grew up or went to, hell I could not tell you that for any of the skins, except maybe Orakpo, so what is that all about?[/quote]

Just seems that since he was a local kid (and for the record I don't, nor never have lived in or near the DC area) some people are universally for or against him no matter what he does. Call it the Marcus Mason syndrome, lol.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Paintrain;589208]Maybe he's not "as good" (although I've never been a huge Rogers fan) I don't think the disparity is as wide as you portray in their coverage abilities. Opportunities are opportunities. Teams threw at Deion and Darrell Green until they gave them reasons not to in the way of interceptions. Ignoring the positive impact that interceptions can have is kinda silly. You're way smarter than that.

I don't have the statistical capabilities to show how many of Hall's INT led to points vs. the number of dropped Roger INT led to opponents points but obviously it would tilt towards Hall.[/quote]Well, I'm not ignoring the positive impact. I'm just suggesting that I have some reason to believe that it's a small impact.

I can make some quick assumptions based on expected points. But, while this is based on information from expected point studies, none of this is at all scientific.

It's generally believed that:

[quote]30 expected points = 1 win
average INT = 3 ex. points (more or less depending on field position)
20 yards of field position = 1 ex. point (this is not linear, every yard is worth more closer to either end zone)[/quote]

Assuming the above, Hall's INTs are worth 8 points per year more than Rogers INTs. That's about 1/3 of a win. But we also have to determine what % of that difference is purely circumstantial. And I think that would be at least half, though, there's no way I could prove that since I'm guessing. If I'm right though, we're talking about 4 total points difference between Hall and a second Rogers.

In my opinion, when you compare that to the 30-35 expected points (90-100 plays compared to 3-5 interceptions) that Hall will allow on completions that Rogers won't in any given year, it just [I]seems[/I] really, really insignificant. But I could be looking at this completely wrong, not to mention that my estimations are fuzzy.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;589196]I think you are being a little loose with stats on this one Tripp, of course I don't have any better. Hall's best talent is his opportunistic INTS, I think he has played in 5 games for us, and has at least 3 INTs. Carlos had a ball hit in stride and in his hands and he dropped it. That said I would rather have 2 Carlos' then 2 Halls any game of the year. Carlos will not get beat (I haven't seen it in the last year). Hall will give up a lot of plays. I just wish Carlos had better hands, but I imagine having bad hands forced him to play his position better to stay ahead of those flashy guys that get INTs[/quote]Well, just last year, I charted Rogers with 3 dropped INTs in 6 attempts (he's the new 50-50!), and charted Hall with 2 dropped INTs in 4 attempts. And no, I don't have any numbers prior to last season, so I had to adjust subjectively.

But more importantly, what is it saying that Hall plays 7 games here, and had 4 INT attempts, while Rogers plays 16 games, with only 6 INTs. Consider: Rogers was 2nd in all of football with 24 passes defended. Certainly, he's getting to the ball. No, I think it says more about where the ball is going.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

I think you could also make an argument that Hall is simply better at returning INTs than Rogers is, and you could probably support it, but I don't even want to try to quantify that.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SmootSmack;588986]Definitely agree with that. And we need Hall on our defense because he seems to be our only threat to make a play (talking about the D Backs specifically). For all his faults, I have faith that he'll get an interception every time I see him out on defense. Rogers, on the other hand, who I think is a very efficient DB is never a threat to get an INT. And we need turnovers. So if Rogers can lock down one side and Hall can get me the INTs on the other side, I'm fine with that.

Springs could do both, but it's not 2004 anymore.[/quote]Problem with this SS, is that Al Davis already gambled eight figures on this, and decided after 8 games that he couldn't take it anymore.

And Hall did pick off three passes as a Raider. He just cost them way, way more than that.

We do need the big plays from somewhere though. I prefer Orakpo and Haynesworth (and Carter).

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Ruhskins;588568]Very creative thread, just as creative and as effective as our offensive playcalling against the Giants. :doh:

It's already bad enough we have to suffer through a bad game (since you know they do happen), but then we have to come here to these wonderful threads.[/quote]

You don't have to anything. Except, well nevermind.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=mlmpetert;588988]What do you got against Leigh?[/quote]

My point was that Torrance got cut after he gave up one completion against the Rams last year. Hall gave up 5 or so yesterday and he's got 20+ mill guaranteed. Plus, he seems to be operating under the misconception that the NFL is two hand touch.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589207]There's also a lot of evidence to suggests that defenses can't do anything to create interception opportunities, and that they always regress to the mean every year. In this case, this would suggest the difference in INTs between Rogers and Hall are entirely circumstantial.

Of course, Rogers still obviously drops a higher percentage of his INTs, that's not at all in dispute. But how many of Hall's INTs are of the variety from Sunday: only there for the taking because it was thrown at a receiver he was lined up against, and someone else made the play?[/quote]

If Hall had been in better position coverage wise, he probably wouldn't have made the pick yesterday. He was three yards off the intended when Landry tipped the ball to him.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;589213]Here's my thinking, if JCutler were throwing int's into the hands of Hall - you know he likes to throw them right into the DB's hands ;) - Hall would catch 4 out of 4 last night, Rogers would have to catch one of those beauties wouldn't he?

[B]:P its a new week, new opponent, who IS the Rams qb anyway[/B]?[/quote]

Marc Bulger.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

Look, lets give the guy another chance, it was one game. The defense only gave up 16 points.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

Hmm, TO is being covered tonight and he's only caught one ball. I wonder who's covering him? Oh, it's the guy that's always hurt and over the hill. SHAWN SPRINGS!! Still doing it.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;589252]Hmm, TO is being covered tonight and he's only caught one ball. I wonder who's covering him? Oh, it's the guy that's always hurt and over the hill. SHAWN SPRINGS!! Still doing it.[/quote]

Giving HIM another chance would have been a good idea.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=70Chip;589253]Giving HIM another chance would have been a good idea.[/quote]

resigning him and given Rogers a new contract would have been better.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

Watching Hall play yesterday was like watching Archuleta a couple of years ago. Comes in with a huge contract( I think we got rid of Ryan Clark for him) and completely forgets how to play football. Hall should be ashamed, and give some of that money back. Let's get Barnes coached up and ready to play. GO SKINS.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;589250]Look, lets give the guy another chance, it was one game. The defense only gave up 16 points.[/quote]

Agreed. Honestly, one thing is criticizing a player for their bad play, but another is just hating someone blindly.

DeAngelo Hall had a bad game, that's terrible and let's hope he plays better. What do people get from bitching about how we overpaid him? Is that going to make him better? Is that going to make the Redskins better? Shit, at least the guy had a pick and he wasn't out there making stupid personal fouls.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589335]Agreed. Honestly, one thing is criticizing a player for their bad play, but another is just hating someone blindly.

DeAngelo Hall had a bad game, that's terrible and let's hope he plays better. What do people get from bitching about how we overpaid him? Is that going to make him better? Is that going to make the Redskins better? Shit, at least the guy had a pick and he wasn't out there making stupid personal fouls.[/quote]

He did commit a personal foul in ST play. I can guarantee that he will do it again and I'll remind you when it happens like the A-hole that I am.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;589337]He did commit a personal foul in ST play. I can guarantee that he will do it again and I'll remind you when it happens like the A-hole that I am.[/quote]

He didn't, he got called for hold. I'm not here to defend D. Hall, I'm just here to remind you that everyone f'ed up, not just him. See the thread that I started.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589341]He didn't, he got called for hold. I'm not here to defend D. Hall, I'm just here to remind you that everyone f'ed up, not just him. See the thread that I started.[/quote]

I know that . I'll tell you what, I'll stop my hatred for Hall on this board and you tell me by the end of the season if he was worth signing. I hope I'm wrong about this guy, I've watched him do the same shit for 5 years in Atl, Oak and Was and to be honest nothing has changed. He's my George Starke of the 21st century, I don't like undiscipline players and to be honest, Landry has been headed that way too.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;589346]I know that . I'll tell you what, I'll stop my hatred for Hall on this board and you tell me by the end of the season if he was worth signing. I hope I'm wrong about this guy, I've watched him do the same shit for 5 years in Atl, Oak and Was and to be honest nothing has changed. He's my George Starke of the 21st century, I don't like undiscipline players and to be honest, Landry has been headed that way too.[/quote]

And you may be right about him, it is just that right now in this particular argument I think you are judging this guy based on your biased opinion about him. Hence why I bring up Landry as an example.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Lotus;588334]^^If Smoot could tackle, Manningham would not even have had a first down, much less a touchdown.[/quote]

I agree he wiffed and fell on his face. But he also was 5 yards off the line.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;588373]Yeah, they should have given Rogers and extension resigned Springs and still would have had money to sign an OL. But no.[/quote]

Dude Springs is always hurt for at least 5 to 8 games. He is old and injury prone. No thanks to Springs. Rogers has to learn how to catch interceptions thats his biggest problem.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=DynamiteRave;588532]I think to drop something you have to be near it. Smoot was getting burned all day long. Seems like as soon as you get rid of Leigh Torrence, somebody else has to take his spot. At this rate, Smoot is better as a dime back rather than a Nickel... Keep this up and he'll end up solely on special teams (we are in need of a new Ade...)[/quote]

Ok should we put Tryon out here as the nickle so you guys can complain about him too.?

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

Maybe Greg Blache could mix up our defense schemes and have our corners blitz sometimes like they use to do with S. Springs. As for Carlos good physical corner but does have trouble making interceptions. Hall has never been a physical corner but he has good ball skills and he can run. If we want our secondary to play better we need to get more pressure on the QB and not get behind by 10 or more points many games.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;589252]Hmm, TO is being covered tonight and he's only caught one ball. I wonder who's covering him? Oh, it's the guy that's always hurt and over the hill. SHAWN SPRINGS!! Still doing it.[/quote]

he'll be hurt in two weeks.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

I do have something nice to say about Hall, and that's the fact that he's pretty good at not getting beat deep. Even the best receivers in the league can't really get behind him.

Due to this, bad quarterbacks do struggle a LOT against DeAngelo Hall. Not being able to complete a pass against him is a pretty good indication that a quarterback doesn't have "the goods".

Next 5 weeks, the best quarterback we face is Byron Leftwich, assuming he's healthy. Delhomme, Cassel, Bulger, and Stafford all sort of suck in their own ways.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589457]I do have something nice to say about Hall, and that's the fact that he's pretty good at not getting beat deep. Even the best receivers in the league can't really get behind him.

Due to this, bad quarterbacks do struggle a LOT against DeAngelo Hall. Not being able to complete a pass against him is a pretty good indication that a quarterback doesn't have "the goods".

Next 5 weeks, the best quarterback we face is Byron Leftwich, assuming he's healthy. Delhomme, Cassel, Bulger, and Stafford all sort of suck in their own ways.[/quote]

See, that wasn't so hard was it? :)

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Paintrain;589460]See, that wasn't so hard was it? :)[/quote]I actually feel warm and fuzzy now :D

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589465]I actually feel warm and fuzzy now :D[/quote]

:grouphug:

LOL.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589457]I do have something nice to say about Hall, and that's the fact that he's pretty good at not getting beat deep. Even the best receivers in the league can't really get behind him.

Due to this, bad quarterbacks do struggle a LOT against DeAngelo Hall. Not being able to complete a pass against him is a pretty good indication that a quarterback doesn't have "the goods".

Next 5 weeks, the best quarterback we face is Byron Leftwich, assuming he's healthy. Delhomme, Cassel, Bulger, and Stafford all sort of suck in their own ways.[/quote]

You are talking about DeAngello Hall right?

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;589470]You are talking about DeAngello Hall right?[/quote]Yeah. I did a TD/INT ratio for corners, and Hall actually grades out pretty well. But if you do TD + First Downs/INT rate, just a small adjustment, he's one of the worst in the league.

Any quarterback that can throw in rhythm can beat him. Those who aren't rhythm passers are at a major disadvantage.

Re: Another Vinny Special: Deangelo Hall
 

[quote=GTripp0012;589474]Yeah. I did a TD/INT ratio for corners, and Hall actually grades out pretty well. But if you do TD + First Downs/INT rate, just a small adjustment, he's one of the worst in the league.

Any quarterback that can throw in rhythm can beat him. Those who aren't rhythm passers are at a major disadvantage.[/quote]

So...would you say the rhythm is gonna get him?

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