Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

At this point it's still too early to write off Thomas/Kelly/Davis. And honestly I put more blame with Zorn on not getting these guys involved. I think the effort has been there with trying to get Kelly going though.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603806]At this point it's still too early to write off Thomas/Kelly/Davis. And honestly I put more blame with Zorn on not getting these guys involved. I think the effort has been there with trying to get Kelly going though.[/quote] Good points . We have had coaching changes < Gibbs - AL S. > , now Zorn . JC is still growing and has not had much time with DT or Kelly < hurt 08 > . That being said , we should be able to get more production . Could be worse , we could have all been raised in dallas or philly :)

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

At what point though do we say "You've made it to the NFL. To have gotten this far you should know how to run certain routes"?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603813]At what point though do we say "You've made it to the NFL. To have gotten this far you should know how to run certain routes"?[/quote]

You are right, let's just fire Hixon, and not hire anyone in his place. I pretty much guarantee we would get the same production, maybe even better!

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

While I am....not happy (with many things) with the reciever production this team delivers. It has been an issue lo' these many years. When you take the scope of the entire team and "it's production", it is not much of a leap to suggest our newbie's may NOT have gotten the best coaching available, and THAT has played a part in their development of lack thereof?
HTTR

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Where are Kelly and Thomas?

Kelly is starting at WR; Thomas is on the bench where he belongs because when he does find himself on the field for an offensive snap, he does nothing to make the coaches think they ought to do that more frequently.

The real question here ought to be:
[INDENT]Who thought these two guys were the WRs who would turn the Skins' lackluster WR corps into an elite WR corps?[/INDENT]
Find the answer to that question and you may be on the path to progress...

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Whoever thought the sole problem of the Skins was the WR's and thought that by picking up 2-3 new WR's would do the trick is not paying any attention to game day. I think we all know they other issues, like the O-line's blocking, JC's quarterbacking, Zorn's playcalling, etc.

This thread was talking about Kelly and Thomas so assuming we are talking about not just them but all the WR's, I hate to think we could not find a couple of productive WR's out of the bunch I listed earlier; Mix, McMullen, Mann, Eloi, Hacket, Hagens, Roydell Williams, Patton, Lloyd, Espy, McCardell, Pinkston.

I'll agree not all of them are NFL quality and we simply gave them a shot. But not all of them are camp scrubb material either. But some of this weight has to be placed on Hixon for failure to develope/coach the players.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Still waiting to hear what hidden gem WR that was cut from here and went on to have success with another team. That might help convince me Hixon is a poor coach.

Couldn't we run through a list of camp bodies from the past few years at every position and use that to call out that certain position coach? Just saying.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603880]Still waiting to hear what hidden gem WR that was cut from here and went on to have success with another team. That might help convince me Hixon is a poor coach.

Couldn't we run through a list of camp bodies from the past few years at every position and use that to call out that certain position coach? Just saying.[/quote]

I don't know that it's a WR that has left and developed elsewhere but more the lack of receivers he's developed since he had them. Of course a lot of it is on the player also but the coach has to bear some of the blame as well.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603880]Still waiting to hear what hidden gem WR that was cut from here and went on to have success with another team. That might help convince me Hixon is a poor coach.

Couldn't we run through a list of camp bodies from the past few years at every position and use that to call out that certain position coach? Just saying.[/quote]

You don't really want to hear answers Matty, or atleast you aren't really open to reasonable proofs short of the mystical gem you ask for. The fact is, most WR's get one shot, and they learn or don't learn from the team that brings them in. Add to that the lack of success that Hixon has had in remotely raising the performance of any wide receiver, and you have a legitimate reason to look for a better coach. It certainly isn't the only issue, but it is one constant for the last 5 years of lousy receiver growth, even when the FO has spent many picks and brought many players in over that time period.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I'm interested in answers, just not the half-assed ones. Or maybe the original argument is flawed lending itself to less than ideal answers, I dunno.

If Hixon isn't developing these gems, and these guys leave and aren't developed elsewhere either, perhaps they are just bums to begin with and it's a talent issue vs. coaching.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603947]I'm interested in answers, just not the half-assed ones. Or maybe the original argument is flawed lending itself to less than ideal answers, I dunno.

If Hixon isn't developing these gems, and these guys leave and aren't developed elsewhere either, perhaps they are just bums to begin with and it's a talent issue vs. coaching.[/quote]
I wonder how you feel about our overall ability to evaluate talent. I mean, obviously our scouts can't evaluate receivers. We have drafted and brought in bum after bum after bum, touted them all off-season as excellent workers, and then bam they all are bums. So does that translate all through out in your opinion, or is it only in receivers that we bring in bum after bum. Certainly I think our pro and college scouts are very effective at bringing good players in.

If I re-phrase the question to say "what part of our program for receivers keeps us from putting 3 quality starters on the field? " is that a better question? Are we scouting poor prospects? Are the players just worthless once they get here? Is Danny not investing enough in bringing in quality guys? Maybe there just aren't enough talented rookies in the draft for us to get the ones our scouting department really wants?

Any way I break it down, I see Hixon as replaceable. I can't believe we would do any worse, but we could do a whole lot better.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603947]I'm interested in answers, just not the half-assed ones. Or maybe the original argument is flawed lending itself to less than ideal answers, I dunno.

If Hixon isn't developing these gems, and these guys leave and aren't developed elsewhere either, perhaps they are just bums to begin with and it's a talent issue vs. coaching.[/quote]

Matty you are being very cynical. You know full well what this person is trying to say. Giving a name is not necessary when you look at Hixon's full body of work as far as coaching WRs goes. Maybe it is the talent that is being brought in. Maybe its the evaluation process. But overall a coach should make players better. If you are a WR coach you would be teaching your receivers the tools they need to be successful. He hasn't. Plain and simple. Whether they are a 1st rounders or undrafted he hasn't yielded any results from the players that are brought in. ARE and Moss were already vets before they came to this team. So who is he improving? He isn't doing that well as a teacher when we bring in WRs and they can barely make a play. Zorn says Mitchell does not know the short routes. How long does it take to learn? [B]Who is supposed to teach him?[/B] If you are a teacher you bring the best out of a student. You might not be able to make a F student a A student. But you should atleast be able to get them to a D or C-. If not. [B]Why is he here?[/B]

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=jamf;603604]I think the issue is that these guys are still on the team. There are 10 WRs drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round of the 2008 draft who contribute to their teams or atleast show flashes of ability. We see nothing in return from Kelly and Thomas.
I'm concerned that Cerrato won't cut a guy he drafted because it would confirm that he made a mistake drafting that player.
Also, Thomas needs to get his butt on special teams. He is too gifted of an athlete to not be a Gunner or returner and it's not like we want to save him for WR.[/quote]

They need to be in the position to make plays.. it looks like Zorn is trying to wean Kelly in, but admitted to using Thomas mostly to open up other guys which doesn't make a lot of sense to me

I don't know what's keeping him from getting opportunities other than playcalling.. I guess that you could blame Hixon if he's not developing properly/correcting mistakes/learning..

as far as special teams, no clue... maybe danny smith likes others over him.. though we do use him some in returns

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;603787]Have any of those guys gone on to be stars elsewhere?

I'm not sure what tossing up a list of camp bodies really shows.[/quote]
Not so much but you don't find a lot of teams willing to take on a guy who couldn't get playing time after a couple of years either.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;603967]I wonder how you feel about our overall ability to evaluate talent. I mean, obviously our scouts can't evaluate receivers. We have drafted and brought in bum after bum after bum, touted them all off-season as excellent workers, and then bam they all are bums. So does that translate all through out in your opinion, or is it only in receivers that we bring in bum after bum. Certainly I think our pro and college scouts are very effective at bringing good players in.

If I re-phrase the question to say "what part of our program for receivers keeps us from putting 3 quality starters on the field? " is that a better question? Are we scouting poor prospects? Are the players just worthless once they get here? Is Danny not investing enough in bringing in quality guys? Maybe there just aren't enough talented rookies in the draft for us to get the ones our scouting department really wants?

Any way I break it down, I see Hixon as replaceable. I can't believe we would do any worse, but we could do a whole lot better.[/quote]

Marko looked pretty good in August and at least earned a roster spot. Still yet to see how he looks in real action but there's some promise there.

I'm still not ready to give up Thomas and Kelly. We'll see how that plays out.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;603982][B]Matty you are being very cynical.[/B] You know full well what this person is trying to say. Giving a name is not necessary when you look at Hixon's full body of work as far as coaching WRs goes. Maybe it is the talent that is being brought in. Maybe its the evaluation process. But overall a coach should make players better. If you are a WR coach you would be teaching your receivers the tools they need to be successful. He hasn't. Plain and simple. Whether they are a 1st rounders or undrafted he hasn't yielded any results from the players that are brought in. ARE and Moss were already vets before they came to this team. So who is he improving? He isn't doing that well as a teacher when we bring in WRs and they can barely make a play. Zorn says Mitchell does not know the short routes. How long does it take to learn? [B]Who is supposed to teach him?[/B] If you are a teacher you bring the best out of a student. You might not be able to make a F student a A student. But you should atleast be able to get them to a D or C-. If not. [B]Why is he here?[/B][/quote]

No, I'm really not. If the argument is Hixon sucks and the reasoning is because he hasn't been able to make stars out of bums who haven't don't anything anywhere else either, I guess I just don't buy that as a legit answer.

I think overall people place too much emphasis on coaching at times. Sometimes you just don't have the horses. We really haven't had a ton of talent at WR for years now. Moss is good but a borderline #1. ARE is a slot guy. Thomas and Kelly are still pretty green experience wise.

I'm not saying Hixon is anything great, but look at a comparable situation with someone like Bugel. He hasn't been able to turn shit into stars either. Why? The talent really hasn't been there.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;603813]At what point though do we say "You've made it to the NFL. To have gotten this far you should know how to run certain routes"?[/quote]

Typically when a guy is in the starting lineup, I guess that doesn't work for us.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604007]No, I'm really not. If the argument is Hixon sucks and the reasoning is because he hasn't been able to make stars out of bums who haven't don't anything anywhere else either, I guess I just don't buy that as a legit answer.

I think overall people place too much emphasis on coaching at times. Sometimes you just don't have the horses. We really haven't had a ton of talent at WR for years now. Moss is good but a borderline #1. ARE is a slot guy. Thomas and Kelly are still pretty green experience wise.

I'm not saying Hixon is anything great, but look at a comparable situation with someone like Bugel. He hasn't been able to turn shit into stars either. Why? The talent really hasn't been there.[/quote]

Who are our big talent evaluators are WR? Does that start at the scouts and work all of the way to the FO?

Everybody is missing on every pick in the past.. well almost forever?

I mean I don't know a lot about Hixon, I'd like to see him make somebody at least solid, but it's not like we've had WR issues for only the what, 5 years he's been here?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Time will tell , lets face it , if Kelly or Thomas were on the Colts , Manning would make them look pretty darn good , as he has done with some very young WR's , Garcon / Collie .

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604003]Marko looked pretty good in August and at least earned a roster spot. Still yet to see how he looks in real action but there's some promise there.

I'm still not ready to give up Thomas and Kelly. We'll see how that plays out.[/quote]

I agree. But I am just wondering why Marko is not ready. Mike Martz say there is a huge learning curve for WR second only to QB. Because the WR have to read defenses also. But I guess that is why so many people are Hixon so hard. He should be getting our receivers ready. Teaching them the routes and how to run them properly. Also the tricks of the trade. How to make your breaks. how to field off defenders using your body to make it harder for them to make INTS. Like on that interception JC threw that was intended for Kelly. He let a smaller defender jam him then pin him to the sidelines the whole route. Then he had a bad position on the jump ball and didn't little to break up the interception.[B] I am in no way saying the INT was Kelly's fault though[/B]. I just wonder what Hixon is teaching these guys. If they are not listening to his direction when it comes to game time. [I]He sould sometimes bench them for another WR like Marko. One to proove a point. Secondly to see if someone else can do better.[/I]

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604003]Marko looked pretty good in August and at least earned a roster spot. Still yet to see how he looks in real action but there's some promise there.

I'm still not ready to give up Thomas and Kelly. We'll see how that plays out.[/quote]

I think this kind of makes part of the point I keep trying to make. In preseason, you can see if a guy has the talent to hang around. It's not NFL grade, moreso College on steroids. The fact that Marko shined, and that DT and MK had good preseasons, to me says there is ability, that could be refined by a good WR coach. But what we have is probably an above average College WR coach. A lot of college WR coaches couldn't make it at the NFL level, and I think that is the case with Hixon too. He can coach the WR basics, but can he show him what he needs to do against NFL CB's?

I don't know, really, I know I could watch him day in and day out, and probably be impressed, but the results of 5 years and average at best production says to me, lets see if there is someone better.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Smith worked with receivers today; I hope this will help receivers out a lot.. We will find out soon enough, within few weeks..

[url=http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Lewis_Begins_Evaluation_At_First_Redskins_Practice_67504.jsp]Lewis Begins Evaluation At First Redskins Practice[/url]

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=GridIron26;604046]Smith worked with receivers today; I hope this will help receivers out a lot.. We will find out soon enough, within few weeks..

[url=http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Lewis_Begins_Evaluation_At_First_Redskins_Practice_67504.jsp]Lewis Begins Evaluation At First Redskins Practice[/url][/quote]

nitpicking alert!

it was Lewis who worked with the receivers not Smith.

now back to your regular program.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;604049]nitpicking alert!

it was Lewis who worked with the receivers not Smith.

now back to your regular program.[/quote]

Lol thanks for correcting me.. I don't know how I got it wrong :doh:

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I think working with the receivers first after watching film is a good idea. Not that Hixon would need any help...:yeahright

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=gridiron26;604046]Lewis worked with receivers today; i hope this will help receivers out a lot.. We will find out soon enough, within few weeks..

[URL="http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/lewis_begins_evaluation_at_first_redskins_practice_67504.jsp"]Lewis begins evaluation at first redskins practice[/URL][/quote]



[B][SIZE=4]yes!!!!!![/SIZE][/B]

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Does Kelly have some type of injury to his hands or something? I was listening to a video on Redskins.com and he said it hurts when he catches the ball.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;604346]Does Kelly have some type of injury to his hands or something? I was listening to a video on Redskins.com and [B]he said it hurts when he catches the ball[/B].[/quote]

How does he know? :)

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kelly-reveals-thumb-injury.html]Redskins Insider - Kelly Reveals Thumb Injury[/url]

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=53fan;604350]how does he know? :)[/quote]

lmfao

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604353][url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kelly-reveals-thumb-injury.html]Redskins Insider - Kelly Reveals Thumb Injury[/url][/quote]

That's a real bummer. Kid seems fragile, unfortunately.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604353][url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kelly-reveals-thumb-injury.html]Redskins Insider - Kelly Reveals Thumb Injury[/url][/quote]

I'd sit him and let him heal and start Mitchell. On another topic, D. Hall better keep his cool going against Steve Smith, since they don't like each other. This could be the game were Hall commits stupid personal fouls like he has in the past and kills us.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;604375][B]I'd sit him and let him heal and start Mitchell.[/B] On another topic, D. Hall better keep his cool going against Steve Smith, since they don't like each other. This could be the game were Hall commits stupid personal fouls like he has in the past and kills us.[/quote]

Good idea. And yeah, we should see how much Hall has matured during this game.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604007]No, I'm really not. If the argument is Hixon sucks and the reasoning is because he hasn't been able to make stars out of bums who haven't don't anything anywhere else either, I guess I just don't buy that as a legit answer.

I think overall people place too much emphasis on coaching at times. Sometimes you just don't have the horses. We really haven't had a ton of talent at WR for years now. Moss is good but a borderline #1. ARE is a slot guy. Thomas and Kelly are still pretty green experience wise.

I'm not saying Hixon is anything great, but look at a comparable situation with someone like Bugel. He hasn't been able to turn shit into stars either. Why? The talent really hasn't been there.[/quote]

Perhaps the majority are lemons, but when you have lemons you make lemon juice. I would argue Keenan McCardell is atleast one, and Pinkston another. No they are not T.O. caliber or R.Moss, but they are not fodder either. I would also argue that a more talented WR Coach might have done a better job with almost half of these.

My last arguement would be that I would have a hard time believing that the team picked up these so called "camp scrubb" with out atleast consoling Hixon in regards to these guys which means Hixon is a dumb donkey at evaluating talent and bring in guys who will make a difference to the team ....which confirms what I'm saying all along.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;604392]My last arguement would be that I would have a hard time believing that the team picked up these so called "camp scrubb" with out atleast [B]consoling Hixon in regards to these guys[/B] which means Hixon is a dumb donkey at evaluating talent and bring in guys who will make a difference to the team ....which confirms what I'm saying all along.[/quote]

Freudian slip?

Anyhow, to say that Hixon is a dumb donkey at evaluating talent is a bit ridiculous. Over half the guys you listed were basically just camp bodies (almost none who have made it anywhere else)

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;604395]Freudian slip?

Anyhow, to say that Hixon is a dumb donkey at evaluating talent is a bit ridiculous. Over half the guys you listed were basically just camp bodies (almost none who have made it anywhere else)[/quote]


Well as someone else said, If there's a party and your invited and you screw up, more then likely your not getting invited to another party.

They got invited and received piss poor training/developement, screwed up in preseason and most likely havn't been given a second chance. Some of the guys had gone to the CFL. You know where all the garbage players go. Keep in mind we picked up Dorsey for the CFL also. Some on here prefered him over Alridge.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;604397]Well as someone else said, If there's a party and your invited and you screw up, more then likely your not getting invited to another party.

They got invited and received piss poor training/developement, screwed up in preseason and most likely havn't been given a second chance. Some of the guys had gone to the CFL. You know where all the garbage players go. Keep in mind we picked up Dorsey for the CFL also. Some on here prefered him over Alridge.[/quote]

That didn't make any sense.

Look, I get the frustration with our receivers and the relative ease of just pointing the finger at Hixon. I believe I was one of the first people here to question Hixon

[url]http://www.thewarpath.net/256737-post1.html[/url]

But there's only so much he can affect (effect?). It's a bit crazy I think to say Hixon is the reason guys like Onrea Jones, Shaun Bodiford, Danny Melendez and Taylor Sele are not household names now. Again, we're talking about a lot of "camp bodies" That's all they are. Every now and then one might shine through, but all around the league you could look at any team and you would see that even the best WR coaches have a long list of WRs under their tenur who never amounted to anything with them. I mean just think of all the WRs who do nothing in the preseason but play special teams, if that.

So it seems to me that you and others are just desperate to find ways in which Hixon has failed and any sensible critique becomes absurd when you throw in names like the ones mentioned above and talk about how Hixon must be a dumb donkey at evaluating talent. It's nearly as silly as getting upset that Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones are friends (well maybe not that silly).

I don't even know what the point of your CFL rant was, so I'll just ignore that one.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Smoot, I like your point in the post you linked too. All I am saying, is that after 5 years of little things being missed as you said, and when a lot of our other low level coaches have been let go with the coaching changes, how does Hixon survive with 0 production to put by his name. It's not like changing Hixon is going to suddenly turn DT into Superman, but maybe another coach could get through to him. At this point, if the team wants to make a point without major turmoil (yes I am laughing at myself for even writing that line) then maybe letting a non-producing unit's position coach go would drive home the point that things have to change.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;604404]Smoot, I like your point in the post you linked too. All I am saying, is that after 5 years of little things being missed as you said, and when a lot of our other low level coaches have been let go with the coaching changes, how does Hixon survive with 0 production to put by his name. It's not like changing Hixon is going to suddenly turn DT into Superman, but maybe another coach could get through to him. At this point, if the team wants to make a point without major turmoil (yes I am laughing at myself for even writing that line) then maybe letting a non-producing unit's position coach go would drive home the point that things have to change.[/quote]


Well Sherm Lweis was working with the WRs yesterday. I am sure he is critiquing Hixon as well.