Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;730684]But it's OK to burn the sacred text of "our" religion. Ironic?

[URL="http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/index.html"]Military burns unsolicited Bibles sent to Afghanistan - CNN.com[/URL][/quote]

Military protocol was followed though I would have like to have seen them returned.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Chico23231;730706]Good interesting article. But the context of comparing the two pretty far off.

Back-woods ignorant redneck pastor is getting this all this press. This guy seriously thinks this is a war on Islam. Laughable of the ignorance of this country and anyone who agrees with what he is doing. Putting our military at risk, including a close friend of mine located outside of Kandahar. Maybe we need to put this guy on a plane and send him over there to preach, cause no sensible American would agree with what this guy is doing. Where is Glenn Beck to give history lessons regarding freedom of religion?[/quote]No comparison between the acts other than sacred texts burned or threatened to be burned.

What is interesting is the response to each act. Many Muslims threatened violence world-wide, yet no Christians I am aware of committed or threatened violence over the burned Bibles. Even the soldier the Bibles were sent to surrendered them without incident, and it appears he was an Evangelical.

Considering this incident has been made public and in light of the President's comments over the Quran incident, it would seem appropriate he issue some sort of statement, or policy through Sec Gates, stating that the military would not be throwing away as trash, and/or burning any Bibles. They could be donated somewhere outside the danger zone or returned to the folks that sent them with a warning to not resend them.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

President Obama said it should be possible to build a mosque anywhere a church or synagogue could be built. "I recognize the extraordinary sensitivities," Obama said, but "we are not at war against Islam."

Well said again. Obama is on a roll today.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” – Voltaire

The pastor, misdirected as I believe him to be, is making a political statement by his book burning. As long as he does so in an otherwise legal manner, he is allowed to make his statement of hate and, although we may disagree with it, we as Americans should defend his right to make that statement. Further, we should do so in a manner that clearly indicates that violence in response to hateful speech is just as wrong as the initial hateful speech.

One of the things I find upsetting about the response to this hateful speech is the lack of condemnation, by the Islamic community, of the notion that violence is in any way an appropriate response to this idiot’s actions. There are any number of responses which leading Muslim clerics could endorse as a response – ranging from calling the faithful to reach out to peaceful Christians and to hold joint rally’s for Christian & Muslims, to sermons on how these actions perpetuate a message of hate that is antithetical to Muslims and Christians, or even to burning Bibles. All of these are attempts to combat hateful speech with additional speech.

Yet, what I hear is not, “Muslims, it is a sin against Allah to respond with violence or hatred to this fool’s actions” or “Those who react with violence are condemned before the eyes of Allah”. Instead, the response seems to be, at best, “We can’t promise that any Christian will be safe from radical Muslim fundamentalists who are offended by this action.”

Let me be clear – I think DWOC’s action is contrary to God’s word and to the tenets of Christianity. DWOC’s actions are a perpetuation of hatred and encourage faithful and unfaithful alike to separate themselves from the truth and beauty that is God. As such, his actions are sinful and lead people to damnation.

With that said, a physically violent, destructive response to hateful speech has the same results.

The way to combat hateful speech is with additional speech and let the truth will out. Instead, there appears (to me anyway) to be a toleration, by the larger Islamic community as a whole, of the violent response proposed by a minority to disliked speech. Toleration may be too strong. Rather, it's seems to be a shrug "Yeah, we don't agree with radical Muslims and physical violence is wrong, but what can you do about it". I have not heard one Muslim cleric assert that, no matter how reprehensible the idea is, this idiot has the right to burn these books. Have I missed that?

Two wrongs do not make a right [I]and[/I] the second wrong should be condemned just as strongly as the first (particularly where the threat of physical injury is being made). I may have missed it, but I simply haven’t seen the Islamic religious leaders step forth, defend DWOC's right to do this, and loudly condemn a violent response to this proposed action.

I hope and pray that the idiot does not burn these Holy Books. I also hope and pray that any response to his hateful speech does not perpetuate the cycle of hate.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

well said joe.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Chico23231;730718]President Obama said it should be possible to build a mosque anywhere a church or synagogue could be built. "I recognize the extraordinary sensitivities," Obama said, but "we are not at war against Islam."

Well said again. Obama is on a roll today.[/quote]Would a Shinto shrine be OK at Pearl Harbor within 10 years of Dec. 7, 1941? How about a skin-head / Nazi outreach center near the Holocaust Museum?

We keep being told by many on the left that we must be tolerant of Muslims, how about peaceful Muslims step up and be tolerant of the U.S. and the families of 9/11 victims. That would go a long way towards healing wounds.

We're not at war with peaceful Muslims, but we are at war with those that believe in the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, whether we like it or not.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730720]“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” – Voltaire

The pastor, misdirected as I believe him to be, is making a political statement by his book burning. As long as he does so in an otherwise legal manner, he is allowed to make his statement of hate and, although we may disagree with it, we as Americans should defend his right to make that statement. Further, we should do so in a manner that clearly indicates that violence in response to hateful speech is just as wrong as the initial hateful speech.

[I][B]One of the things I find upsetting about the response to this hateful speech is the lack of condemnation, by the Islamic community, of the notion that violence is in any way an appropriate response to this idiot’s actions. There are any number of responses which leading Muslim clerics could endorse as a response – ranging from calling the faithful to reach out to peaceful Christians and to hold joint rally’s for Christian & Muslims, to sermons on how these actions perpetuate a message of hate that is antithetical to Muslims and Christians, or even to burning Bibles. All of these are attempts to combat hateful speech with additional speech.[/B][/I]

Yet, what I hear is not, “Muslims, it is a sin against Allah to respond with violence or hatred to this fool’s actions” or “Those who react with violence are condemned before the eyes of Allah”. Instead, the response seems to be, at best, “We can’t promise that any Christian will be safe from radical Muslim fundamentalists who are offended by this action.”

Let me be clear – I think DWOC’s action is contrary to God’s word and to the tenets of Christianity. DWOC’s actions are a perpetuation of hatred and encourage faithful and unfaithful alike to separate themselves from the truth and beauty that is God. As such, his actions are sinful and lead people to damnation.

With that said, a physically violent, destructive response to hateful speech has the same results.

The way to combat hateful speech is with additional speech and let the truth will out. Instead, there appears (to me anyway) to be a toleration, by the larger Islamic community as a whole, of the violent response proposed by a minority to disliked speech. Toleration may be too strong. Rather, it's seems to be a shrug "Yeah, we don't agree with radical Muslims and physical violence is wrong, but what can you do about it". I have not heard one Muslim cleric assert that, no matter how reprehensible the idea is, this idiot has the right to burn these books. Have I missed that?

Two wrongs do not make a right [I]and[/I] the second wrong should be condemned just as strongly as the first (particularly where the threat of physical injury is being made). I may have missed it, but I simply haven’t seen the Islamic religious leaders step forth, defend DWOC's right to do this, and loudly condemn a violent response to this proposed action.

I hope and pray that the idiot does not burn these Holy Books. I also hope and pray that any response to his hateful speech does not perpetuate the cycle of hate.[/quote]

I particularly agree here.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730720]“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” – Voltaire

The pastor, misdirected as I believe him to be, is making a political statement by his book burning. As long as he does so in an otherwise legal manner, he is allowed to make his statement of hate and, although we may disagree with it, we as Americans should defend his right to make that statement. Further, we should do so in a manner that clearly indicates that violence in response to hateful speech is just as wrong as the initial hateful speech.

One of the things I find upsetting about the response to this hateful speech is the lack of condemnation, by the Islamic community, of the notion that violence is in any way an appropriate response to this idiot’s actions. There are any number of responses which leading Muslim clerics could endorse as a response – ranging from calling the faithful to reach out to peaceful Christians and to hold joint rally’s for Christian & Muslims, to sermons on how these actions perpetuate a message of hate that is antithetical to Muslims and Christians, or even to burning Bibles. All of these are attempts to combat hateful speech with additional speech.

Yet, what I hear is not, “Muslims, it is a sin against Allah to respond with violence or hatred to this fool’s actions” or “Those who react with violence are condemned before the eyes of Allah”. Instead, the response seems to be, at best, “We can’t promise that any Christian will be safe from radical Muslim fundamentalists who are offended by this action.”

Let me be clear – I think DWOC’s action is contrary to God’s word and to the tenets of Christianity. DWOC’s actions are a perpetuation of hatred and encourage faithful and unfaithful alike to separate themselves from the truth and beauty that is God. As such, his actions are sinful and lead people to damnation.

With that said, a physically violent, destructive response to hateful speech has the same results.

The way to combat hateful speech is with additional speech and let the truth will out. Instead, there appears (to me anyway) to be a toleration, by the larger Islamic community as a whole, of the violent response proposed by a minority to disliked speech. Toleration may be too strong. Rather, it's seems to be a shrug "Yeah, we don't agree with radical Muslims and physical violence is wrong, but what can you do about it". I have not heard one Muslim cleric assert that, no matter how reprehensible the idea is, this idiot has the right to burn these books. Have I missed that?

Two wrongs do not make a right [I]and[/I] the second wrong should be condemned just as strongly as the first (particularly where the threat of physical injury is being made). I may have missed it, but I simply haven’t seen the Islamic religious leaders step forth, defend DWOC's right to do this, and loudly condemn a violent response to this proposed action.

I hope and pray that the idiot does not burn these Holy Books. I also hope and pray that any response to his hateful speech does not perpetuate the cycle of hate.[/quote]

Here's one

[url=http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1583620.php/Iraq-s-top-Shiite-cleric-urges-tolerance-towards-Christians]Iraq's top Shiite cleric urges tolerance towards Christians - Monsters and Critics[/url]

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;730711]No comparison between the acts other than sacred texts burned or threatened to be burned.

What is interesting is the response to each act. Many Muslims threatened violence world-wide, yet no Christians I am aware of committed or threatened violence over the burned Bibles. Even the soldier the Bibles were sent to surrendered them without incident, and it appears he was an Evangelical.

Considering this incident has been made public and in light of the President's comments over the Quran incident, it would seem appropriate he issue some sort of statement, or policy through Sec Gates, stating that the military would not be throwing away as trash, and/or burning any Bibles. They could be donated somewhere outside the danger zone or returned to the folks that sent them with a warning to not resend them.[/quote]

We're seeing violence acts against Muslims now in America without them having to burn the Bible. It's one thing for US personal to burn the Bible an entirely another for Muslims to do so for the sole purpose of Aggravating Christians. Burning the Qur'an is an absolute no-no by anyone, be it Christian or Muslim or a Jew.

[quote][B]For Christians, [URL="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1:1-14&version=NIV"]Jesus is the word of God[/URL]. For Muslims, the Quran is the word of God. Imagine someone burning Jesus.

-Emad El-Din Shahin[/B][/quote]


The military got the sense that those churches will keep sending proselytizing Bibles and like the military personal said, if they returned them they will send them right back to another organization and thus give the impression that the Military is there to proselytize. They've made a tactical decision, one which I am sure was difficult. As for Obama making a statement, why would he? He wasn't president when the incident took place. If you want them to have a military policy to burn all trash except the Bible you have my support. I will not support distributing them or donating them somewhere outside the danger zone.


[yt]hVGmbzDLq5c[/yt]

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730720]“I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” – Voltaire

The pastor, misdirected as I believe him to be, is making a political statement by his book burning. As long as he does so in an otherwise legal manner, he is allowed to make his statement of hate and, although we may disagree with it, we as Americans should defend his right to make that statement. Further, we should do so in a manner that clearly indicates that violence in response to hateful speech is just as wrong as the initial hateful speech.

One of the things I find upsetting about the response to this hateful speech is the lack of condemnation, by the Islamic community, of the notion that violence is in any way an appropriate response to this idiot’s actions. There are any number of responses which leading Muslim clerics could endorse as a response – ranging from calling the faithful to reach out to peaceful Christians and to hold joint rally’s for Christian & Muslims, to sermons on how these actions perpetuate a message of hate that is antithetical to Muslims and Christians, or even to burning Bibles. All of these are attempts to combat hateful speech with additional speech.

Yet, what I hear is not, “Muslims, it is a sin against Allah to respond with violence or hatred to this fool’s actions” or “Those who react with violence are condemned before the eyes of Allah”. Instead, the response seems to be, at best, “We can’t promise that any Christian will be safe from radical Muslim fundamentalists who are offended by this action.”

Let me be clear – I think DWOC’s action is contrary to God’s word and to the tenets of Christianity. DWOC’s actions are a perpetuation of hatred and encourage faithful and unfaithful alike to separate themselves from the truth and beauty that is God. As such, his actions are sinful and lead people to damnation.

With that said, a physically violent, destructive response to hateful speech has the same results.

The way to combat hateful speech is with additional speech and let the truth will out. Instead, there appears (to me anyway) to be a toleration, by the larger Islamic community as a whole, of the violent response proposed by a minority to disliked speech. Toleration may be too strong. Rather, it's seems to be a shrug "Yeah, we don't agree with radical Muslims and physical violence is wrong, but what can you do about it". I have not heard one Muslim cleric assert that, no matter how reprehensible the idea is, this idiot has the right to burn these books. Have I missed that?

Two wrongs do not make a right [I]and[/I] the second wrong should be condemned just as strongly as the first (particularly where the threat of physical injury is being made). I may have missed it, but I simply haven’t seen the Islamic religious leaders step forth, defend DWOC's right to do this, and loudly condemn a violent response to this proposed action.

I hope and pray that the idiot does not burn these Holy Books. I also hope and pray that any response to his hateful speech does not perpetuate the cycle of hate.[/quote]

Muslims are indifferent to this pastor's well being because what he proposes to do is beyond vile (who in here cares what happens to Fred Phelps?). There are idiots out there talking about how they would respond to this pastor's action by attacking and Americans/Christians and I don't see Muslims being indifferent to this.

There will be one nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act against this pastor. Best of luck to the pastor.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

From the article:
[quote]Iraq's top Shiite Muslim leader has condemned plans by a pastor in the United States to burn copies of the Koran, but urged Muslims not to be provoked and called for tolerance of Christians.

Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, in a statement released Thursday night, said: 'While we denounce the assault on the Holy Koran and stress the importance of not letting this occur, we urge Muslims, where ever they are, to exercise the utmost restraint.'

‘Do not do what would hurt the followers of the church,' he said.

Al-Sistani said the call by Florida pastor Terry Jones for the Koran-burning on the anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the US, was not compatible with the task of religious leaders to 'promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence.' [/quote]

This is [I]exactly[/I] what I mean by a tolerant shrug. Sorry, he is not condemning violent reactions. Rather, he “urges” Muslims to exercise “restraint”. Is the restraint “urged” because it is wrong to do violence? No, it is urged so as to not “hurt the followers” of Islam. What about urging restraint because it is wrong to do harm to others who don’t believe as you do? What about condemning violent responses to hateful speech as being antithetical to the word of Allah, the teachings of Mohammend and “not compatible with the task of religious leaders to “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”?

He does not defend the right of people to speak their mind. Instead, he “stress[es] the importance of not letting this [burning] occur.” If DWOC wants to legally make his statement how can he be prevented except by violence? By changing the fundamental constitutional guarantees of our country?

Where is the unequivocal condemnation of violence? Where is the “violence in response to speech is sinful”?

This statement by “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader” is exactly the type of reaction that I am talking about. Tell the faithful it is wrong and evil to kill in response hatred. Tell them this idiot has the right to make his own choices about Allah. Tell them that any one who encourages them to harm others in response to this action is working against the will Allah. Don’t simply "urge restraint" because a violent response might make Islam look bad.

In order to truly “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”, I would hope for more from “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader”.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730730][B]Muslims are indifferent to this pastor's well being because what he proposes to do is beyond vile [/B](who in here cares what happens to Fred Phelps?). There are idiots out there talking about how they would respond to this pastor's action by attacking and Americans/Christians and I don't see Muslims being indifferent to this.

There will be one nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act against this pastor. Best of luck to the pastor.[/quote]

In light of Iraq's top shiite cleric "urging restraint" by all Muslims, I suggest it is not just the pastor who need fear from a "nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act."

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730730]Muslims are indifferent to this pastor's well being because what he proposes to do is beyond vile (who in here cares what happens to Fred Phelps?). There are idiots out there talking about how they would respond to this pastor's action by attacking and Americans/Christians and I don't see Muslims being indifferent to this.

There will be one nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act against this pastor. Best of luck to the pastor.[/quote]

In light of Iraq's top shiite cleric "urging restraint" by all Muslims, I suggest it is not just the pastor who need fear from a "nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act."

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;730723][B]Would a Shinto shrine be OK at Pearl Harbor within 10 years of Dec. 7, 1941? How about a skin-head / Nazi outreach center near the Holocaust Museum? [/B]
We keep being told by many on the left that we must be tolerant of Muslims, how about peaceful Muslims step up and be tolerant of the U.S. and the families of 9/11 victims. That would go a long way towards healing wounds.

We're not at war with peaceful Muslims, but we are at war with those that believe in the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, whether we like it or not.[/quote]

apples and oranges my friend. not close

Why yes we should be tolerant of our fellow Americans. After all we were founded on the principles of tolerance. 4 thousands mosques, 5-7 million muslims across this great country. And have been legally immigrating at a fairly fast rate since 9/11...i think almost 100k a couple years ago. At my Baptist church we have welcome muslims in to gain a better understanding of their faith and shared service...pretty normal people. My friend we will thankfully never be a war with islam because of our principals. We will be at war with people who use Islam as a veil against our government policies in the middle east. Now they will lose.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730728]We're seeing violence acts against Muslims now in America without them having to burn the Bible.[/quote]Violence against Muslims here is wrong and I denounce it. Although what you're talking about is likely the cab driver incident and one or two others. These are isolated incidents and comparatively small compared to the violence that Muslims threatened over the Quran burning threat and committed during the Mohammed drawings.

And yes, burning Bibles or the Qur'an is an absolute no-no by anyone, be it Christian or Muslim or a Jew.

[quote]As for Obama making a statement, why would he? He wasn't president when the incident took place.[/quote]He's the CinC now and the incident has hit the media now. If you're gonna hold the red lightsaber, gotta step up.

[quote]If you want them to have a military policy to burn all trash except the Bible you have my support. I will not support distributing them or donating them somewhere outside the danger zone.[/quote]Fair enough. The military folks shouldn't be doing this type of thing anyway. While I was in the USAF I ran across a few of the evangelicals, they can't help themselves for their own good. There's a time and place for everything, if you want to spread the Word come back to Afghanistan/Iraq etc. when you're out and a civilian if you feel that strongly about it.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730734]In light of Iraq's top shiite cleric "urging restraint" by all Muslims, I suggest it is not just the pastor who need fear from a "nut job out there that thinks he's going to get heaven credits with a violent act."[/quote]

What do you expect this Ayatollah to say? Unlike Christianity Islam and Judaism don't subscribe to turning the other cheek. In Islam one is expected to conduct himself/herself righteously towards others at all times.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Chico23231;730738]My friend we will thankfully never be a war with islam because of our principals. We will be at war with people who use Islam as a veil against our government policies in the middle east. [B]Now they will lose[/B].[/quote]I hope and pray you're right, but they will only lose because of two things; 1) the American people understanding more about Islam and those that use its teachings to support violence and 2) moderate or peaceful Muslims becoming more outspoken and forceful in the condemnation of violent acts in the name of their religion.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730742]What do you expect this Ayatollah to say? Unlike Christianity Islam and Judaism don't subscribe to turning the other cheek. [B]In Islam one is expected to conduct himself/herself righteously towards others at all times[/B].[/quote]"others" would be read as "other Muslims", non-believers have a different set of rules.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730728]We're seeing violence acts against Muslims now in America without them having to burn the Bible. It's one thing for US personal to burn the Bible an entirely another for Muslims to do so for the sole purpose of Aggravating Christians. [B]Burning the Qur'an is an absolute no-no by anyone, be it Christian or Muslim or a Jew.[/B]

[QUOTE=saden1;730728]For Christians, Jesus is the word of God. For Muslims, the Quran is the word of God. Imagine someone burning Jesus. -Emad El-Din Shahin [/quote][/quote]

Hey Emad - How about we just imagine someone hanging him on a cross and slowing torturing him to death?

I recognize the subtle difference between each religion's view of its fundamental text. In orthodox Christianity, the Bible is believed to be the word of God transcribed by divinely inspired authors - Sacred due to the divine inspiration which brought it into existence. Whereas, as I understand it, the Koran is, very literally and in a real personal sense, [I]the[/I] word of God - Sacred by its existense. Yet, for all this subtle, somewhat rhetorical BS to non-theologians, does it in any way change the underlying truth that violent destructive responses to the non-violent choices of others is antithetical to the teachings of Allah?

[quote=saden1;730728]The military got the sense that those churches will keep sending proselytizing Bibles and like the military personal said, if they returned them they will send them right back to another organization and thus give the impression that the Military is there to proselytize. They've made a tactical decision, one which I am sure was difficult. As for Obama making a statement, why would he? He wasn't president when the incident took place. If you want them to have a military policy to burn all trash except the Bible you have my support. I will not support distributing them or donating them somewhere outside the danger zone.[/quote]

You know what. I am pretty much in complete agreement with you on this. My differences don't (at this point :) ) warrant a digression.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;730747]"others" would be read as "other Muslims", non-believers have a different set of rules.[/quote]

If you're eying it from extremist angle, I suppose so. There's lots of room for improvement on the part of the Muslim world. The sad truth is people in the Muslim world take their own ineptitude and frustrations with their condition on people who are not like them. This has happened in the past, happens in the present, and will happen in the future. This is not a domain exclusive to Muslims either (see Kosovo).

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730749]Hey Emad - How about we just imagine someone hanging him on a cross and slowing torturing him to death?

I recognize the subtle difference between each religion's view of its fundamental text. In orthodox Christianity, the Bible is believed to be the word of God transcribed by divinely inspired authors - Sacred due to the divine inspiration which brought it into existence. Whereas, as I understand it, the Koran is, very literally and in a real personal sense, [I]the[/I] word of God - Sacred by its existense. [B]Yet, for all this subtle, somewhat rhetorical BS to non-theologians, does it in any way change the underlying truth that violent destructive responses to the non-violent choices of others is antithetical to the teachings of Allah?[/B]



You know what. I am pretty much in complete agreement with you on this. My differences don't (at this point :) ) warrant a digression.[/quote]


One would hope people would turn the other cheek and take the non-violent approach but the sad truth is that passages in holly books are in the eye of the beholder whether they be [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism_in_Islam"]pacifist or antagonistic[/URL].

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;730746]I hope and pray you're right, but they will only lose because of two things; 1) the American people understanding more about Islam and those that use its teachings to support violence and 2) moderate or peaceful[B] Muslims becoming more outspoken and forceful in the condemnation of violent acts in the name of their religion[/B].[/quote]

We would all like to see that no doubt. People need to get past the religion thing all together and focus on the politics of that region. Israel vs Palestine conflict is the driving force behind all upheavel in the region.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

What you want, can't and won't happen Joe. And is one reason why the Jewish/Muslim war will not be ended by human eyes. In the old Testament of the Bible, God tells the Israelites to go into a land and destroy all remnants of former gods, idols etc. This isn't a one time exclusive thing, this is a trait of God. It is the same trait that Muslims claim under Sharia Law, when the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhists.

When God is seen as a jealous God, then any number of atrocities may be done in his name. Alot of Christians wave off this part of God, and many cynics of God point to the Christians ignoring this side as "proof" of hypocrisy. However each Christian person deals with this aspect of God, it is certainly that devout followers of the Jewish or Muslim Holy Scriptures can not ever give more than even a tolerant shrug, and in the most devout communities a tolerant shrug can be seen as blasphemy against the Holy One.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730742]What do you expect this Ayatollah to say? Unlike Christianity Islam and Judaism don't subscribe to turning the other cheek. [B]In Islam one is expected to conduct himself/herself righteously towards others at all times.[/B][/quote]

I admit I am only a dilettante in Islamic theology and that, perhaps, the words spoken by the cleric resonate differently within an Islamic audience as opposed to a Christian one. Further, I admit to ignorance on Islam's stance as to the "turn the other cheek" tenet. Even if acting “righteously” is the Islamic standard, however, some Christian authors take the view that, when the Bible's "turn the other cheek" quotation is read in historical and textual context, it comes out much the same as conducting oneself "righteously".

[quote][B]Righteous personal conduct interpretation[/B]
There is a third school of thought in regard to th[e] passage ["turn the other cheek"]. Jesus was not changing the meaning of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" but restoring it to the original context. Jesus starts his statement with "you have heard it said" which means that he was clarifying a misconception, as opposed to "it is written" which would be a reference to scripture. The common misconception seems to be that people were using Exodus 21:24-25 (the guidelines for a magistrate to punish convicted offenders) as a justification for personal vengeance. In this context, the command to "turn the other cheek" would not be a command to allow someone to beat or rob a person, but a command not to take vengeance.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek#Righteous_personal_conduct_interpretation]Turning the other cheek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]
[/quote]

Thus, [I]if[/I] the Islamic standard is to act "righteously", and based on the fact that both early Islamic and Christian legal theory seem to be by culture and geography, fairly direct descendents from Hammurabic influences, I would expect the Imam to strongly condemn any [I]vengeful [/I]response to the burning as being unrighteous vengeance that is repulsive to Allah and contrary to the Word of God.

Again, however, I plead ignorance of as to the Qu’ran’s specific teachings on what is considered “righteous” action toward others.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;730711]No comparison between the acts other than sacred texts burned or threatened to be burned.

What is interesting is the response to each act. Many Muslims threatened violence world-wide, [B]yet no Christians I am aware of committed or threatened violence over the burned Bibles[/B]. Even the soldier the Bibles were sent to surrendered them without incident, and it appears he was an Evangelical.

Considering this incident has been made public and in light of the President's comments over the Quran incident, it would seem appropriate he issue some sort of statement, or policy through Sec Gates, stating that the military would not be throwing away as trash, and/or burning any Bibles. They could be donated somewhere outside the danger zone or returned to the folks that sent them with a warning to not resend them.[/quote]
SHAZAM.....is it not amazing indeed...war mongering Chrisitans and peace loving Muslims...who would have thought?

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730731]From the article:


This is [I]exactly[/I] what I mean by a tolerant shrug. Sorry, he is not condemning violent reactions. Rather, he “urges” Muslims to exercise “restraint”. Is the restraint “urged” because it is wrong to do violence? No, it is urged so as to not “hurt the followers” of Islam. What about urging restraint because it is wrong to do harm to others who don’t believe as you do? What about condemning violent responses to hateful speech as being antithetical to the word of Allah, the teachings of Mohammend and “not compatible with the task of religious leaders to “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”?

He does not defend the right of people to speak their mind. Instead, he “stress[es] the importance of not letting this [burning] occur.” If DWOC wants to legally make his statement how can he be prevented except by violence? By changing the fundamental constitutional guarantees of our country?

Where is the unequivocal condemnation of violence? Where is the “violence in response to speech is sinful”?

This statement by “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader” is exactly the type of reaction that I am talking about. Tell the faithful it is wrong and evil to kill in response hatred. Tell them this idiot has the right to make his own choices about Allah. Tell them that any one who encourages them to harm others in response to this action is working against the will Allah. Don’t simply "urge restraint" because a violent response might make Islam look bad.

In order to truly “promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence”, I would hope for more from “Iraq’s top Shiite Muslim leader”.[/quote]

I feel like we read the same article....yet we didn't read the same article...I will now print out your posts and torch them

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=saden1;730755]One would hope people would turn the other cheek and take the non-violent approach but [B]the sad truth is that passages in holly books are in the eye of the beholder whether they be [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacifism_in_Islam"]pacifist or antagonistic[/URL][/B].[/quote]

[quote=CRedskinsRule;730758][B]What you want, can't and won't happen Joe. And is one reason why the Jewish/Muslim war will not be ended by human eyes.[/B] In the old Testament of the Bible, God tells the Israelites to go into a land and destroy all remnants of former gods, idols etc. This isn't a one time exclusive thing, this is a trait of God. It is the same trait that Muslims claim under Sharia Law, when the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhists.

[B]When God is seen as a jealous God, then any number of atrocities may be done in his name. [/B] Alot of Christians wave off this part of God, and many cynics of God point to the Christians ignoring this side as "proof" of hypocrisy. However each Christian person deals with this aspect of God, it is certainly that devout followers of the Jewish or Muslim Holy Scriptures can not ever give more than even a tolerant shrug, and in the most devout communities a tolerant shrug can be seen as blasphemy against the Holy One.[/quote]

And this is what causes people like BleedBurgandy to dismiss all religion as equivalent of unicorns and lunacy – human misuse of revealed wisdom. It is also why I am so angered by leading Islamic clerics failure to loudly, proudly and unequivocally condemn vengeful actions.

saden - Do you believe that when read as a whole and working to resolve apparently conflicting out of context statements within the Qu’ran about vengeance, violence and Allah’s mercy through critical study, that any truly thoughtful, rational Muslim could believe that Allah as revealed in the Qu’ran condones vengeful actions against, or the murder of, those who simply do not believe in the Qu’ran’s teachings?

CRR – Similarly, do you believe that a similar study of the Talmud, the whole Talmud, would lead any truly thoughtful, rational Jew to believe that the Judaic God seeks the death and destruction of all non-Jews?

All I ask is for religious [I]leaders[/I], on all sides, is to seek the actual wisdom revealed in their Holy Scriptures – all of it, not just the parts [i]they[/i] like - and, accordingly, teach their flock to forego vengeance, to condemn violence and to seek Truth.

Yes. It is a utopian vision but, dammit, the Truth Is Out There!

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=SmootSmack;730776]I feel like we read the same article....yet we didn't read the same article...[B]I will now print out your posts and torch them[/B][/quote]

I am sure you are not alone in that sentiment.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

Interesting read if you want:
[url=http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt04.html]Dilling: IV. Exploitation of Non-Jews[/url]

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;730782]And this is what causes people like BleedBurgandy to dismiss all religion as equivalent of unicorns and lunacy – human misuse of revealed wisdom. It is also why I am so angered by leading Islamic clerics failure to loudly, proudly and unequivocally condemn vengeful actions.

saden - Do you believe that when read as a whole and working to resolve apparently conflicting out of context statements within the Qu’ran about vengeance, violence and Allah’s mercy through critical study, that any truly thoughtful, rational Muslim could believe that Allah as revealed in the Qu’ran condones vengeful actions against, or the murder of, those who simply do not believe in the Qu’ran’s teachings?

CRR – Similarly, do you believe that a similar study of the Talmud, the whole Talmud, would lead any truly thoughtful, rational Jew to believe that the Judaic God seeks the death and destruction of all non-Jews?

All I ask is for religious [I]leaders[/I], on all sides, is to seek the actual wisdom revealed in their Holy Scriptures – all of it, not just the parts [i]they[/i] like - and, accordingly, teach their flock to forego vengeance, to condemn violence and to seek Truth.

Yes. It is a utopian vision but, dammit, the Truth Is Out There![/quote]


No but then again I'm a [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinozism"]Spinozist[/URL].

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

Some Muslims are crying over this like a bunch of babies but dance in the street when the twin towers fall and I'm suppose to care about their feelings. I mean come on they freak all out about the Koran but they seem to shrug off all the killing that goes in its name. I'm not talking about American deaths I'm talking about the killing of other muslims that we see in the news about every day. Lets not even get into how they treat women. I wonder how many will be celebrating tomorrow

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

Didn't want to start a new thread on this, but pretty outrageous stuff here. I would assume there would've been a massive outrage in the mainstream media if this had been a Christian church or Jewish synagogue who brought in local middle schoolers, told them outright historical lies, had some of the kids join in prayers, while excluding girls and the women teachers from the area.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7-I9Qp3d4Y&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Wellesley, Massachusetts Public School Students Learn to Pray to Allah[/ame]

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

Does anybody else keep misreading the thread title as ".....Burn a Korean Day"?

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=724Skinsfan;734431]Does anybody else keep misreading the thread title as ".....Burn a Korean Day"?[/quote]

I better go grab me a Korean! Corner store, here I come!

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

Hurry up and buy!

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/17/florida.quran.pastor/index.html?hpt=T2]City plans to bill pastor for security around planned Quran burning - CNN.com[/url]

LOL, here you go jackass...enjoy. With your 50 person redneck congregation, Im sure your coffers are full.

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=tryfuhl;734485]Hurry up and buy![/quote]

Hey look if you want to go and purchase a Koran and burn it fine but you could cut out the middle man by simply burning your money. And.... if burning your money is not an issue for you fine but you could easily cut yourself out of that and not have to worry about how to get it lit, or all the ash, simply send it all to me. I promise I'll take care of it so you won't have to figure out how to set it afire or clean up all that ash that would look and smell horrible. Just let me know if I can be of help and I'll send my address. ;)

Re: DWOC's International Burn a Koran Day
 

[quote=SBXVII;734825]Hey look if you want to go and purchase a Koran and burn it fine but you could cut out the middle man by simply burning your money. And.... if burning your money is not an issue for you fine but you could easily cut yourself out of that and not have to worry about how to get it lit, or all the ash, simply send it all to me. I promise I'll take care of it so you won't have to figure out how to set it afire or clean up all that ash that would look and smell horrible. Just let me know if I can be of help and I'll send my address. ;)[/quote]

Hide yo kids, hide yo wife. Oh god SB, all I can think about is the song every time I see your sig. lol