Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;772993]If we can get a decent pick for Cooley we have to do it. He is THE most overrated player on the team. He is the second best tight end on the team and probably the 4th or 5th best tight end in the division. He has dropped key balls all friggin' year.[/quote]

Well I don't know what calling him the most overrated player means. It's not like there are very many highly rated players on this offense to begin with.

Cooley has had a down year, but the guy has been very solid for years for the Skins despite a revolving door at QB and offensive coordinator, not to mention a slew of shitty O-lines.

Fred Davis is a better athlete for sure, but Cooley runs better routes, is better after the catch, and, despite the drops, does have better hands. However, if the right offer is on the table, I can only think of two or three Skins that are untradeable, and Cooley isn't one of them.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=GMScud;772995]Well I don't know what calling him the most overrated player means. It's not like there are very many highly rated players on this offense to begin with.

Cooley has had a down year, but the guy has been very solid for years for the Skins despite a revolving door at QB and offensive coordinator, not to mention a slew of shitty O-lines.

Fred Davis is a better athlete for sure, but Cooley runs better routes, is better after the catch, and, despite the drops, does have better hands. However, if the right offer is on the table, I can only think of two or three Skins that are untradeable, and Cooley isn't one of them.[/quote]

Mainly, I mean from a typical fans perspective. I think that 2005 Dallas game is etched in their brains. Plus, Cooley is very good at marketing so he is very popular.

I firmly believe that Davis is better and has been better. That was before Cooley decided to flat drop 50 percent of the clutch balls that came his way this year. He represents the old culture to me (overpaid, underperform) and I would be thrilled if they could get a 3rd. i would take a 4th. His pay is ridiculous compared to his production.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Not buying trading cooley, i honestly don't even think we'd get in return what he's worth to us, especially when I look at other teams and the te's they already have

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;772996]Mainly, I mean from a typical fans perspective. I think that 2005 Dallas game is etched in their brains. Plus, Cooley is very good at marketing so he is very popular.

I firmly believe that Davis is better and has been better. That was before Cooley decided to flat drop 50 percent of the clutch balls that came his way this year. He represents the old culture to me (overpaid, underperform) and I would be thrilled if they could get a 3rd. i would take a 4th. His pay is ridiculous compared to his production.[/quote]

If a 32 year old Tony Gonzalez can fetch a second round pick for the Chiefs then I would expect the Skins to be able to get the same for a 28 year old Cooley. Assuming we even decide to trade him. I mean this isn't like McNabb or Haynesworth were we have no leverage.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;772993][B]If we can get a decent pick for Cooley we have to do it.[/B] He is THE most overrated player on the team. He is the second best tight end on the team and probably the 4th or 5th best tight end in the division. He has dropped key balls all friggin' year.[/quote]

We're not going to get one. Especially now. As unlikely as Redskin fans are to bring themselves to admit it, Cooley's star has faded. I posed the question of trading for him a year or so ago when it looked like Fred Davis could replace him. The time to do it would have been when his production was peaking -- of course, that would have been federal offense amongst fan blowhards who thought he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I think the perceived downfall of Cooley has been greatly exaggerated. Even with last week's miserable first half he still has 72 catches on the year (2nd highest total of his career) and 796 yards (also 2nd highest total of his career). He also has 9 catches of over 20 yards, the most he's had since 2007.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Beemnseven;773008]We're not going to get one. Especially now. As unlikely as Redskin fans are to bring themselves to admit it, Cooley's star has faded. I posed the question of trading for him a year or so ago when it looked like Fred Davis could replace him. The time to do it would have been when his production was peaking -- of course, that would have been federal offense amongst fan blowhards who thought he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.[/quote]

I think in a true rebuilding mode, you trade a player like cooley for a pick now and ESPECIALLY when you have a younger guy ready to step up into a starting role. Davis has had 2 years experience and learned from a great guy. Its time to move on. The 3rd string guy has shown flashes this year as well.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Chico23231;773040]I think in a true rebuilding mode, you trade a player like cooley for a pick now and ESPECIALLY when you have a younger guy ready to step up into a starting role. Davis has had 2 years experience and learned from a great guy. Its time to move on. The 3rd string guy has shown flashes this year as well.[/quote]

I agree. Tight end is one of the few positions (it may be the only position) where we have legitimate depth. We need youth period. Looking at our starting defense last week and the fact that they are probably going to 18 games makes the strategy of trying to win a championship with an old team obsolete.

If we were offered a 4th for Cooley, I would take it tomorrow.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;773003]If a 32 year old Tony Gonzalez can fetch a second round pick for the Chiefs then I would expect the Skins to be able to get the same for a 28 year old Cooley. Assuming we even decide to trade him. I mean this isn't like McNabb or Haynesworth were we have no leverage.[/quote]

Here's the thing. Cooley never has been and never will never be as good as Tony Gonzalez. The thing that separates Gonzalez is that he makes 8 out of 10 of those catches that Cooley dropped.

They just aren't comparable. Gonzalez is a Hall of Famer while Cooley is an above average tight end.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773028]I think the perceived downfall of Cooley has been greatly exaggerated. Even with last week's miserable first half he still has 72 catches on the year (2nd highest total of his career) and 796 yards (also 2nd highest total of his career). He also has 9 catches of over 20 yards, the most he's had since 2007.[/quote]

These are good stats but nothing special, especially since Cooley is the first or second passing option. As the first or second option he should have over a 1000 yards and approach double digit touchdowns. Cooley just isn't capable of those numbers, not here anyway.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;773046]Here's the thing. Cooley never has been and never will never be as good as Tony Gonzalez. The thing that separates Gonzalez is that he makes 8 out of 10 of those catches that Cooley dropped.

They just aren't comparable. Gonzalez is a Hall of Famer while Cooley is an above average tight end.[/quote]


I agree Gonzalez's is an elite TE where Cooley is above average and I say this regardless of his performance last Sunday, it was an off day for him.

Honestly and this pains me to say but Cooley is not even in the same boat as Witten. Cooley is good but not a game changer.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;773047]These are good stats but nothing special, especially since Cooley is the first or second passing option. As the first or second option he should have over a 1000 yards and approach double digit touchdowns. Cooley just isn't capable of those numbers, not here anyway.[/quote]

Not sure why you're hating on the guy. As Matty pointed out, he's still putting up very solid numbers and at 28 is still in his prime. You're so convinced Davis is better- let me ask you- given his track record this year, do you really think Shanahan would hesitate to bench Cooley for a better player?

Cooley isn't an elite TE, but he's definitely well above average, and to call him the 4th or 5th best TE in the division is just silly. Boss isn't better. Neither is Celek (who has an MVP candidate at QB and isn't doing a whole lot). Witten is better than Cooley, but IMO that's about it in the NFC East.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;773047]These are good stats but nothing special, especially since Cooley is the first or second passing option. As the first or second option he should have over a 1000 yards and approach double digit touchdowns. Cooley just isn't capable of those numbers, not here anyway.[/quote]

It's really not common for TE's to top 1000 yards.

A little perspective here: his 72 catches is 2nd among all TE's behind Witten with 90.

His 796 yards is 3rd among all TE's behind Witten and V. Davis.

I think some of you are really undervaluing him.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773053]It's really not common for TE's to top 1000 yards.

A little perspective here: his 72 catches is 2nd among all TE's behind Witten with 90.

His 796 yards is 3rd among all TE's behind Witten and V. Davis.

I think some of you are really undervaluing him.[/quote]

Good post. And those are good numbers for anyone in an offense as lame as ours. Imagine if we had any consistency with a coaching staff and QB? Cooley has already been to a few pro-bowls, and he'll probably see a few more before he's done in this league. Not spectacular, but a very, very solid player.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I really dont know what to do with McNabb. Trading him seems the most likely scenario, but i wonder what his perceived value is out there now that two coaches (Reid, Shanahan) have essentially given up on him as a starter.

I would think that best-case scenario, McNabb fetches a 4th round pick from a desperate franchise. (Only Oakland comes to mind, possibly Arizona). At worst he gets a 5th round that we might could use to find an offensive lineman. I think Linemen are the skins' most pressing need after basically being ignored for the past few seasons.

I don't know Portis' contract situation. I think this year was his final year, so I dont know if he could be traded. I guess its possible that Portis could be resigned at a lower price so that he could be a backup, but i am just guessing at this point. I also don't think Shanahan is very happy with CP right now because of his comments (Jeez who would have figured he'd mouth off again).

I just hope we can do something through the draft. That's what we've been missing for a decade now. This team under Snyder has never drafted that great, it's always been big money, aging free agents.

I do think Shanahan is changing the culture though. Before he arrived, and even with Gibbs to a certain degree, the highest paid player was played, regardless of his ability (or lack thereof). Now it seems like we are finally trying to put the best players on the field, regardless of their contracts...

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=GMScud;773057]Good post. And those are good numbers for anyone in an offense as lame as ours. Imagine if we had any consistency with a coaching staff and QB? Cooley has already been to a few pro-bowls, and he'll probably see a few more before he's done in this league. Not spectacular, but a very, very solid player.[/quote]

Cooley is a much better blocker and twice as smart as Davis. I'd trade Davis in a heartbeat for anything above a 4th round pick.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=GMScud;773049]Not sure why you're hating on the guy. As Matty pointed out, he's still putting up very solid numbers and at 28 is still in his prime. You're so convinced Davis is better- let me ask you- given his track record this year, do you really think Shanahan would hesitate to bench Cooley for a better player?

Cooley isn't an elite TE, but he's definitely well above average, and to call him the 4th or 5th best TE in the division is just silly. Boss isn't better. Neither is Celek (who has an MVP candidate at QB and isn't doing a whole lot). Witten is better than Cooley, but IMO that's about it in the NFC East.[/quote]


I am frustrated with him because he is killing drives. He had a horrible game against Jax but he has been dropping key balls (drive extending balls) all year. He is becoming a problem instead of a solution, he isn't getting any younger and he is overpaid. From my viewpoint, Davis is always open (Rex missed an easy TD to him last game) and is a younger, cheaper alternative who would be just as productive if not more so.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;773100]I am frustrated with him because he is killing drives. He had a horrible game against Jax but he has been dropping key balls (drive extending balls) all year. He is becoming a problem instead of a solution, he isn't getting any younger and he is overpaid. From my viewpoint, Davis is always open (Rex missed an easy TD to him last game) and is a younger, cheaper alternative who would be just as productive if not more so.[/quote]

Honestly, you're digging at this point.

Yeah he's had some drops, but overall his numbers still stand up with the top guys in the league at his position. Plus he's been asked to block more than ever this year, which he's done a great job at too.

Just to note, Davis is a free agent after next year. So let's assume you trade away CC and FD steps in and has a nice year. Then he's going to be commanding a contact just as big, if not bigger, than the one CC has right now.

For the record I'm not against the idea of trading Cooley if the price is right. I'm just amazed/confused at how some of you talk down on the guy like he's trash and not a top TE.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773103]For the record I'm not against the idea of trading Cooley if the price is right. I'm just amazed/confused at how some of you talk down on the guy like he's trash and not a top TE.[/quote]

Agreed. I can't believe the Cooley bashing either.

Fred Davis sux. I hate him.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=bigmarley4;773064]Cooley is a much better blocker and twice as smart as Davis. I'd trade Davis in a heartbeat for anything above a 4th round pick.[/quote]

I'd much rather do what we said we were going to do this past offseason and utilize more two tight end sets when it comes to the passing game. Certainly has worked well for New England. Then again Brady might be one of three QB's in the league that could make a wishbone offense work at the NFL level.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=GMScud;772995]Well I don't know what calling him the most overrated player means. It's not like there are very many highly rated players on this offense to begin with.

Cooley has had a down year, but the guy has been very solid for years for the Skins despite a revolving door at QB and offensive coordinator, not to mention a slew of shitty O-lines.

Fred Davis is a better athlete for sure, but Cooley runs better routes, is better after the catch, and, despite the drops, does have better hands. However, if the right offer is on the table, I can only think of two or three Skins that are untradeable, and Cooley isn't one of them.[/quote]

I'd probably give the nod to Davis for better after the catch.. too soon to tell on hands

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;773045]I agree. Tight end is one of the few positions (it may be the only position) where we have legitimate depth. We need youth period. Looking at our starting defense last week and the fact that they are probably going to 18 games makes the strategy of trying to win a championship with an old team obsolete.

If we were offered a 4th for Cooley, I would take it tomorrow.[/quote]

I wouldn't take a 4th.. he was drafted in the 3rd and we'd give him up for less than that. 4th rounder is a project lineman or LB or something, Cooley definitely has more value than that I think. We'd need a player and a 4th. I don't like the idea of getting anything less than a 2nd or very high 3rd though I doubt many teams are willing to give up a 2nd.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/29/cardinals-havent-shown-interest-in-re-signing-breaston/]Cardinals haven’t shown interest in re-signing Breaston | ProFootballTalk[/url]

anyone interested?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773304][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/29/cardinals-havent-shown-interest-in-re-signing-breaston/]Cardinals haven’t shown interest in re-signing Breaston | ProFootballTalk[/url]

anyone interested?[/quote]

Yes please! I'd take him as competition for Armstrong/3rd receiver in a heartbeat.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I think he could easily be our #2

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Wow, can't believe the Cooley hate going on. The guy has been a consistent go to guy for the last few years, with the exception of last season when he was injured. You just don't give up Cooley for a fourth rounder, no sir. He's worth at least a 2nd rounder in my opinion and maybe then some.

And I think Fred Davis has some potential as well, but he doesn't quite have the hands that Cooley has, but at least he is explosive when he does get the ball.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Instead of trading Cooley, I would trade:

McNabb
Haynesworth
DHall- now that he has been voted to the pro-bowl he can fetch a decent pick, re-sign Rogers and go after Champ Bailey in FA.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=CrazyCanuck;773104]Agreed. I can't believe the Cooley bashing either.

Fred Davis sux. I hate him.[/quote]

Why the hate for FD? I wish we used him more.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;773313]Instead of trading Cooley, I would trade:

McNabb
Haynesworth
DHall- now that he has been voted to the pro-bowl he can fetch a decent pick, re-sign Rogers and go after Champ Bailey in FA.[/quote]


You would rather have Rogers instead of DHall? That doesn't make much sense to me. Also, DHall wouldn't get us more than 4th round pick. His contract is a little inflated (at least I think it is), and he isn't a true "shutdown" corner.

DHall is a playmaker. Rogers is a player with some decent cover skills.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773304][url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/29/cardinals-havent-shown-interest-in-re-signing-breaston/]Cardinals haven’t shown interest in re-signing Breaston | ProFootballTalk[/url]

anyone interested?[/quote]

Would you prefer Breaston, Jacoby Jones (with Kyle in Houston) or Braylon Edwards?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;773313]Instead of trading Cooley, I would trade:

McNabb
Haynesworth
DHall- now that he has been voted to the pro-bowl he can fetch a decent pick, re-sign Rogers and go after Champ Bailey in FA.[/quote]

Haynesworth has no value in a trade.

So you'd rather trade our only defensive playmaker and re-sign Rogers (who will be 30 and has a spotty injury & benching history) and Champ, who is on the wrong side of 30 with multiple injuries over the past 3 years..

Vinny???

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773304][URL="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/29/cardinals-havent-shown-interest-in-re-signing-breaston/"]Cardinals haven’t shown interest in re-signing Breaston | ProFootballTalk[/URL]

anyone interested?[/quote]

Breaston is solid. He's probably better than Armstrong so he could come in here and probably be a solid number 2 and move AA to #3. If the price is right I'd be for it. But do not overpay for him.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773316]Why the hate for FD? I wish we used him more.[/quote]

Yeah the so called 2 TE sets never really came into form this year...FD needs to see more of a role.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;773003]If a 32 year old Tony Gonzalez can fetch a second round pick for the Chiefs then I would expect the Skins to be able to get the same for a 28 year old Cooley. Assuming we even decide to trade him. I mean this isn't like McNabb or Haynesworth were we have no leverage.[/quote]

You're talking about maybe the best TE in the history of the NFL. Cooley is simply not in the same neighborhood as TG. If we put him out on the trade market we'd probably get a mid rounder. No way do we get a 2nd rounder IMO.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Paintrain;773333]Would you prefer Breaston, Jacoby Jones (with Kyle in Houston) or Braylon Edwards?[/quote]

Plan A: Vincent Jackson or AJ Green with a Moss extention

Plan B: Breaston and Jackson/orGreen

Either option is fine with me with our recievers. Just want Armstrong to return with both options.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Paintrain;773334]Haynesworth has no value in a trade.

So you'd rather trade our only defensive playmaker and re-sign Rogers (who will be 30 and has a spotty injury & benching history) and Champ, who is on the wrong side of 30 with multiple injuries over the past 3 years..

Vinny???[/quote]

I want people that can cover 1 on 1 not clowns that can't tackle and get burnt. Rogers might have stone hands but he can cover, Champ can play into his late 30's, Barnes is young and you can draft a young CB in two or three years. So back to you Vinny.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773316]Why the hate for FD? I wish we used him more.[/quote]

Ya something bugs me about this guy...

Maybe it was the Eagles game when FD was beating his chest, despite the fact that the CB/S ran him down from 20 yards back... o ya and we were down by 30 points... :mad:

Or maybe it was the ball he dropped in the endzone in the Bucs game...

And blocking is supposed to be his weakness!!

Maybe hate is a strong word but I'm just not that impressed. And how long are we supposed to wait for him to come of age? It's been 3 years already and he barely sees the field. I knew Cooley was here to stay after 6 games, just don't get that vibe from FD...

Hope he proves me wrong though.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Rogers and Hall all suffer from mediocrity. Both have the talent to be a shutdown corner, but neither of them are because there are huge flaws to their game that costs wins. Rogers covers but can't get finishing turnovers...ever. Hall gets turnovers SOMETIMES, but his gambling allows for opponents to easily move the chains and thus score. I'm willing to take a hit in secondary play if that means eventually nabbing a shutdown corner.
That said, Mike Shanahan can't find that kind of elite defensive talent...so we're stuck with mediocre CB play for years to come. I dislike them both. I'm sick of having guys who are "playmakers but choke" like Hall, Rogers, Moss.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

revis is the only shut down corner in the league right now. I honestly think our tandem of Rogers and Hall is one of the top in the league. I wouldnt go as high as top 5, but definitely top 10. i'm honestly pretty happy with our corner situation.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Mattyk;773307]I think he could easily be our #2[/quote]

Maybe we should consider bringing back this guy since he has such fond memories of his short stay. [syke]

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2010/12/brandon_lloyd_has_special_mess.html]The Early Lead - Brandon Lloyd has special message for Redskins after Pro Bowl honor[/url]