Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;828332]Good corners do not make 95 tackles because such a high number of tackles means that corner is giving up away too many completions and thus is not feared by QBs.

Asomugha and Revis both have a far lower amount of tackles and NOBODY would argue that they're even on par with Hall; both are better. The reason why? Testing them usually results in a play that gains 0 yards(incompletions) or worse.
They do not sacrifice coverage for a small marginal gain in INTs. Breaking 10 picks in a season is a difficult task, and converting picks into points is hardly a guaranteed matter. The point differential between a successful INT by Hall and failed attempt by Hall must be a positive value, otherwise, he's likely hurting the team. Yes, you want guys who can grab picks when the situation DOES present itself(which Stonehands could not do), at the same time, you don't want them to take too much risk and then give up points.

Hell, Hall has never had more than 6 picks in a season. Thus, AT MOST, he would fetch 42 points based on "successful" picks. Since not every pick results in points, that number is far lower. But his number of UNSUCCESSFUL picks gives the opponent points. Since he is such a habitual gambler, I believe assuming he attempts at least 16 times a season to grab those picks is not out of the question. Heck, if his failed gambles led to a field goal every time, the points he snatch for the team and the points he helped cough up would be equal.[/quote]

I think you're missing the point or I'm not be entirely clear. I never put Hall in Asomugha and Revis' class, I'm not crazy. I also pointed out there are a couple of ways you could read Hall having 95 tackles. I suppose you could also reason away his ints and 16 defended passes. What's not really up for debate is that Hall is one helluva playmaker. And given the talent he's been playing with for the past three seasons and changing systems, I'm pretty satisfied with his production as a Redskin. Actually I'm very satisfied with his play as a Redskin.

As far as the aforementioned corners, frankly I don't see them play every week. So I don't know how many tackles they miss, how many coverages they blow, and how many ints they drop. By the way, of the top corners in the league Charles Woodson happens to be my favorite.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

What I hate about this whole Hall bashing/praise argument is that people disregard the overall communication problem that exists among the defensive backs. People have such a hard on hatred for Hall, that all they see are his faults and proceed to b*tch and whine about it to the point that it takes over threads. Then you have people that proceed to argue back, making Hall sound like he's the best ever.

Our defensive backs as a group have problems and they do not begin or end with Halls flaws. For many years we've seen all of our secondary get beat deep, screw up assignments, and completely botch the zone coverage. This offseason having our starting safeties (Atogwe and Landry) and a new starting corner (Wilson) out with injury during training camp and preaseason games did not help.

I hope that Haslett, the DB coaches, and the secondary gets their act together on this overall problem. Unfortunately, this adjustment will need to happen during the regular season.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;828335]Oh, I'm sorry, but there's a better corner who has donned the Redskins uniform and has some rings to boot as well. Forgive me for having high standards. Any rudimentary cost-benefit analysis would show that Hall is a complete idiot for trying so hard to get that one extra pick precisely because picks are extremely low probability events. You let the picks "come to you" and [U]catch[/U] those picks(Stonehands could not, nor was his coverage that good). You don't chase them at the expense of coverage because there's going to be MANY, MANY more "no attempts" or incompletions if you cover well.[/quote]

Wait, what? Cornerbacks shouldn't take gambles on picks because of cost-benefit analysis and the low probability of yielding results? Seriously?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=12thMan;828340]Wait, what? Cornerbacks shouldn't take gambles on picks because of cost-benefit analysis and the low probability of yielding results? Seriously?[/quote]

Yeah I don't get this.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GreekSkin;828325]I'm I the only one that missed the part where most NFL CB's are apparently great at tackling?

[B]95 tackles by Dhall is nothing to scoff at.[/B] I'm sure he whiffed on a few but I'm sure CB's around the league whiffed on as many if not more than he did.[/quote]

No it's not. Asomugha only had 19. I wonder if that's because teams try to avoid Asomugha and game plan around him? Just saying... I love when D. Hall gets turnovers. They're game changers and they fire the team up. I think a lot of us just think he gives up a lot more plays than he needs to by trying for the big play. I'd like to see him cover a little better. Hope that's not too much to ask out of a corner. Shut your man down first...look for the TO second....not the other way around.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=Ruhskins;828338]What I hate about this whole Hall bashing/praise argument is that people disregard the overall communication problem that exists among the defensive backs. People have such a hard on hatred for Hall, that all they see are his faults and proceed to b*tch and whine about it to the point that it takes over threads. Then you have people that proceed to argue back, making Hall sound like he's the best ever.

Our defensive backs as a group have problems and they do not begin or end with Halls flaws. For many years we've seen all of our secondary get beat deep, screw up assignments, and completely botch the zone coverage. This offseason having our starting safeties (Atogwe and Landry) and a new starting corner (Wilson) out with injury during training camp and preaseason games did not help.

I hope that Haslett, the DB coaches, and the secondary gets their act together on this overall problem. Unfortunately, this adjustment will need to happen during the regular season.[/quote]

You very succinctly put the whole Hall argument into perspective. Good post.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=12thMan;828340]Wait, what? Cornerbacks shouldn't take gambles on picks because of cost-benefit analysis and the low probability of yielding results? Seriously?[/quote]

Yea, love that playing corner turned into playing poker

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;828332]Good corners do not make 95 tackles because such a high number of tackles means that corner is giving up away too many completions and thus is not feared by QBs.

Asomugha and Revis both have a far lower amount of tackles and NOBODY would argue that they're even on par with Hall; both are better. The reason why? Testing them usually results in a play that gains 0 yards(incompletions) or worse.
They do not sacrifice coverage for a small marginal gain in INTs. Breaking 10 picks in a season is a difficult task, and converting picks into points is hardly a guaranteed matter. The point differential between a successful INT by Hall and failed attempt by Hall must be a positive value, otherwise, he's likely hurting the team. Yes, you want guys who can grab picks when the situation DOES present itself(which Stonehands could not do), at the same time, you don't want them to take too much risk and then give up points.

Hell, Hall has never had more than 6 picks in a season. Thus, AT MOST, he would fetch 42 points based on "successful" picks. Since not every pick results in points, that number is far lower. But his number of UNSUCCESSFUL picks gives the opponent points. Since he is such a habitual gambler, I believe assuming he attempts at least 16 times a season to grab those picks is not out of the question. Heck, if his failed gambles led to a field goal every time, the points he snatch for the team and the points he helped cough up would be equal.[/quote]

Are wide receivers the only players on the field that get tackled? Is Hall supposed to cover every receiver on the field as well as disrupt handoffs so a rb can't run the ball?

First it was he can't tackle now it's he's giving up so many completions that he has more chances to tackle than anyone else.

D-Hall is a playmaking corner that gives up a few more than we would like to see but let's give credit where it's due. He did well when it came to tackling last year and that was one point of his game he really worked on.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Nice post Ruhskins. We've had a problem back there for years. Hopefully the play of this front 7 will help out until we get some chemistry back there. Sure wish ST was here to enjoy this lineup.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=12thMan;828337]I think you're missing the point or I'm not be entirely clear. I never put Hall in Asomugha and Revis' class, I'm not crazy. I also pointed out there are a couple of ways you could read Hall having 95 tackles. I suppose you could also reason away his ints and 16 defended passes. What's not really up for debate is that Hall is one helluva playmaker. And given the talent he's been playing with for the past three seasons and changing systems, I'm pretty satisfied with his production as a Redskin. Actually I'm very satisfied with his play as a Redskin.

As far as the aforementioned corners, frankly I don't see them play every week. So I don't know how many tackles they miss, how many coverages they blow, and how many ints they drop. By the way, of the top corners in the league Charles Woodson happens to be my favorite.[/quote]This is totally separate from my criticism of Hall in the rest of the thread. And I may be the only guy who thinks this. But I think there's 20 corners in the league I'd take over Hall simply in terms of making big plays.

What he did to Flacco in the first quarter against Baltimore on Thursday was a big time defensive play. He drove on that route, had good position settled underneath, broke aggressively on the football making a great play on the ball, and then took it the distance. That's what playmakers do.

But I only get 4, maybe 5 of those plays out of Hall a season. I get twice that out of Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu and even LaRon Landry every 8 games. During Hall's best games, where he's running step for step with receivers and not giving up the big play, you rarely hear about him.

To me, Hall isn't much of a playmaker, at least how I'd define it: being consistently around the football so that good things happen. When Hall gets the ball in his hands: there's a good chance he's making a play. But between fumble recoveries and INTs, thats 5, maybe 6 times a season. And Hall is just not a "nose for the football" guy. You'll get a few INTs in any season, but how often is he amongst the league leaders in INTs?

I suppose he's pretty consistently in the top 20 NFL players in INTs, but I'm not sure thats all being a playmaker entails. Stripping Tashard Choice was a big-time play, but that was his last play on a ball carrier of the season. In the second half of last season, I don't think he made a play. Not one.

Again, this has nothing to do with my criticism of Hall's selfishness in the rest of the thread. Totally separate issue.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Okay, DeAngelo Hall is consistently in the top 10 in terms of intereceptions every year. He has six career non-offensive TDs, so he's averaging just under one per season. The defense of Hall as a player begins and ends with the fact that he scores a few points for you every season.

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HallDe99.htm]DeAngelo Hall NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Point is, when you expand the definition of playmaking CB to include results outside of INTs, I just don't think he stacks up to some other elite players at his position. It's my opinion that "getting interceptions" is too rare of an event to completely define a playmaker in the secondary. Big hits matter. Stripping the ball matters. Difficult pass breakups matter. Run defense matters. Some will disagree. I think a true playmaker does most of these things.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=SBXVII;828323]Wow interesting break down. All the players make mistakes so [B]why are we bashing Hall[/B]? Does he take chances? yes and apparently thats why MS and Haslett like him otherwise he would be gone. Did he screw up on the TD pass and not turn around and either intercept or atleast bat the ball away.... yes he screwed up.[B] I'm sure after watching film he will correct the problem.[/B] and yes he was giving players a cushion. why? I don't know... maybe it's by design of the scheme in order to take away something the offense was wanting to do and force them to go shorter to an underneith route? I don't know.
[/quote]Not bashing Hall, he's a Skin, I want him to do well. I've also complimented him on his play (when its deserved). I'm just pointing out the reality of who he is. He's a playmaker when opportunities present themselves, but he gives up an inordinant amount of plays that don't show up in the stat line, but do show up upon a good look at the game.

Ask yourself this, take away the 4 INT performace against Cutler & the Bears, are you willing to have 2 INT & 2 FF over 15 games vs. giving up the number of plays Hall does game-in game-out? To me it's not worth it, but we don't have a better option right now.

I'll take less spectacular plays in favor of solid coverage and sure tackling. In a nutshell, when $$$, cap, contract are no consideration, I take Carlos Rogers over Hall (I wish we could've taken the best of both and combine them into one very good CB). We are thin at CB, unfortunately Hall is the best we have. Hopefully Barnes and Wilson develop and we can get some help next off-season.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[url=http://swinginggatedc.com/2011/03/22/deangelo-halls-contract-might-help-to-end-carlos-rogers-time-in-washington/]DeAngelo Hall’s Contract Might Prove To Be The End Of Carlos Rogers’ Time In Washington[/url]

Furthermore, the presence of another hefty contract is hurting Rogers’ chances at landing a big payday in Washington. DeAngelo Hall is currently entering the third year of a six-year deal worth up to $55 million.

After signing an eight-year, $72 million contract in Oakland, Hall was released by the Raiders just eight games into the 2008 campaign. The Redskins inked him to a one-year deal and he managed to turn that near tryout-like stint into a big contract.
[B]
The former Virginia Tech standout has been an enigmatic player whose merits often fail to outweigh his lapses in coverage. Hall has 12 interceptions and a pair of forced fumbles in 36 games, but misses too many tackles and tends to get caught gambling. You can debate as to whether or not he is a good corner, but one thing is unquestionable in my mind: Hall was never worth the money Washington paid him after half a season of work in 2008.

Hall is a high risk, high reward player and his impact can swing the outcome of a game in either direction. He’s certainly worth having on the roster, but not at such a high price. His contract is a classic case of the Redskins overpaying for a player with a reputation for being a headcase.

Secondly, Hall’s deal gives Rogers leverage in the negotiation process. If Hall can make $55 million and struggle in coverage, then why can’t Rogers drop a few picks yet demand similar money?[/B]

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828348]Okay, DeAngelo Hall is consistently in the top 10 in terms of intereceptions every year. He has six career non-offensive TDs, so he's averaging just under one per season. The defense of Hall as a player begins and ends with the fact that he scores a few points for you every season.

[url=http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HallDe99.htm]DeAngelo Hall NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com[/url]

Point is, when you expand the definition of playmaking CB to include results outside of INTs, I just don't think he stacks up to some other elite players at his position. It's my opinion that "getting interceptions" is too rare of an event to completely define a playmaker in the secondary. Big hits matter. Stripping the ball matters. Difficult pass breakups matter. Run defense matters. Some will disagree. I think a true playmaker does most of these things.[/quote]

Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

I bet he won't be with the Redskins next year, he will be asked to rework his contract. He sure isn't worth what he is being paid.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GreekSkin;828353]Would you care to list these 20 or so corners you have in front of Hall in terms of playmaking abilities.?[/quote]Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

UPDATED: Finally had a chance to review the game. Hopefully this is a preview of a weekly SS33 Game Review.

OL - Huge improvement from last year. Familiarity with the ZB scheme is helping the guys from last year. I finally saw an important component of the ZB scheme that was missing last year.....the cut blocks. On the Hightower TD, the cut from KL took down two Ravens and opened the cutback lane. I specifically saw good two good cuts by TW and another by KL. Didn't notice any from Brown/Chester, but hope they're coming.

Monty at C, without bashing ol' turnstile Rabach for a paragraph, let's just say Monty is a huge upgrade at C. The only bad play from him was a mis-communication between him and Chester that allowed the DT to shoot the A gap and blow up a run. Monty went 2nd level too early and Chester couldn't reach the DT.

Pass-pro is much improved. Not seeing the OL getting beaten with a 4 or 5 man rush. The OL is getting at worst a stalemate in pass-pro, which is a win and big improvement from last year where our OL were not only doing a poor job of blitz pick-up, but were losing individual battles.

Blitz Pick-up - An area that needs work, but with new players at C, RG, RB and TE this should improve and is an area that can be "coached up". TW has to get better at reading overload C-gap pressure and stay home rather than get sucked down to the B gap. Brown and Chester need to improve communication in passing the rushers between them. The blitz pick-up appears to be more of an issue on Brown's side. Hopefully by game 4-5 Brown, Chester and the backs/Davis will have settled in.

Davis is much improved in blocking and appears to be taking pride in this effort here. He still has work to do in blitz pick-up, but the run blocking appears to be coming along well and he's showing "want-to".

Hightower looks to be a great fit, excellent cut in the open field on the TD, also excellent explosion and "second gear" which we haven't had in our backfield in quite some time. He did well in pass-pro, another good "want to" showing.

Austin has earned a roster spot. Sure hands, making plays, appears to have a good grasp on his responsibilities.

Our O faced the Ravens 1st team D and played well, I wouldn't say "dominated" but they did win the battle up front and displayed a very good effort all around.

DL - Very pleased here. Cofield is showing why he was the most improtant off-season acquisition. He holds his ground in the run game and creates pressure in the pass game. The base 3-4 rush and 4-man front are getting pressure without needing blitz support....huge improvement from last year. I really like the even front with Rak and Kerrigan off the edges and Cofield and possibly Carriker/Bowen/Scott (JJ loss is awful, overall we'll be fine but he was a pleasant surprise).

Not real happy with Bowen's pre-snap stance (I get in a similar stance in the early AM), but he's doing his job so far.

I think Scott earned himself a roster spot with his versatility and effort. He created good pressure in pass rush and held up well in the run game overall.

Defensive Secondary: We've discussed Hall in other posts so I won't repeat.

Rushkins made a great post on this earlier. We are going to be hurt by not having OJA and LL on the field together in camp and pre-season. There were two specific plays where OJA was completely lost/out of position. The one that hurt most was the Boldin cross. OJA gets sucked out of his zone by the post and Boldin comes underneath into his vacated zone for a big play. I initially thought Hall got sucked up on a flat route, but a closer look showed a Cover 3 Zone deep and OJA was the culprit. Also, our youngsters didn't play particularly well, Gomes and Jones didn't help their cause.

Rak looked very good, Kerrigan too. Not worried about the penalties on 91, they're effort penalties and will be corrected. I'd like to see Neild make the team, he's doing a good job holding his ground and taking up space in the run game. He got a good push in pass rush, but I don't think he'll ever be considered a sack threat.

I liked the playcalls by Haslett. Good mix on D, different looks, coverages, blitzes.

I think Locklear, Golston, and Clemens can be cut.

And finally.....Beck vs. Rex. Beck has a better grasp of the O. He's making the correct reads and quick/accurate throws. The deep INT appeared to be a miscommunication between him and Stallworth that will be corrected once the final 53 is determined and they get familiar with each other. Beck led him in, Stallworth was looking out. If in doubt, throw it out(side) should be the rule of thumb....less chance for INT. Or Beck just made a $hitty throw....but I think it was the former.

Rex is still the same guy, great throws in stretches, but too many poor throws/reads that will kill drives and lose games. Before the TD, Smith should've picked him on a VERY poor throw. That being said Moss dropped a TD right before that. Rex also doesn't identify the blitz and coverage quite as quickly as Beck does.

SS, 12th, 53, thanks for the kind words. Any reviews I do are Warpath Exclusives :) I'll do my best to keep them up every week.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828357]Bailey, Flowers, Revis, Asomguha, Samuel, Terrell Thomas, Tillman, Tracy Porter, Leon Hall, Joe Haden, Aqib Talib, Brent Grimes, Tramon Williams, Charles Woodson, Vontae Davis, and I'm really a fan of most facets of Quentin Jammer's game, ball skills included. That was 16 guys off the top of my head. I left off some guys who simply don't have Hall's relatively strong bill of health, but make plays when they get on the field. Hall looks better if you age regress: Woodson and Bailey are getting long in the tooth, and might not enjoy a Darren Sharper-like end of career.

It's not a complete list of corners I would rather have than Hall, guys like Ike Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Sean Smith, Sheldon Brown, Jonathon Joseph, Chris Carr, Jerraud Powers, Antoine Cason, Ron Bartell, Ronde Barber, Antonio Cromartie, and the like. Those are good cover guys who I don't really consider playmakers.

Forgot: Antoine Winfield. Great cover corner, excellent ball skills.[/quote]

I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GreekSkin;828360]I see that list as more like 10 guys at the level of DHall plus 6 that are admittedly better.[/quote]So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

I am not questioning the value of Hall's big plays to the Redskins. Just the frequency of them.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GreekSkin;828364]Okay fair enough, I'll agree with that. No question he's overrated in regards to his playmaking, but not so much so that he should be thought of as someone that is holding back our defense IMO.

And I still say he did a good job when it came to tackling last year. I'm sure he whiffed on a few but what CB doesnt (answer: very few)[/quote]I'm not even sure I have a concrete opinion on whether Hall truly holds back the defense, or whether he's more of an innocent bystander in a vortex of suck that is our pass defense. I waffle on this. I totally agree with you that simply getting rid of Hall wouldn't fix all of our defensive problems. It would make Byron Westbrook a starting corner.

I don't disagree with those who say he improved in tackling last year. He wasn't good in run support, but for all the times that teams tried that "now" smoke screen against Hall, he generally stopped the receiver before it started. Can he tackle a back in space? No. And neither can Rocky McIntosh, a linebacker. Hall used to struggle to put receivers on the ground, and I don't think he did last year. Young players can improve and I believe that's what happened to Hall's tackling skill. He got better at it.

I think Hall is a problem on this defense. And when I see him do something self-absorbed, there are days I'm certain we'd be better off without him and his contract. Most of the time, I'm able to remind myself that most football teams don't have two good corners, and some teams absolutely start players who don't contribute as much as Hall does. But my biggest issue is the selfishness that leads to penalties of the 5 and 15 yard variety.

Hall thinks he's good enough where his on-field contributions outweigh any flags he may get for extracurricular activity. And that's where my support for him as a Redskin ends.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns.

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=Bucket;828367]Hall is best the CB on this team, and has been since Champ Bailey, D. Green. He one of the few guys on our defensive side of the ball that has made plays for us when we need them.

He did something in the heat of the moment, and the coach didn't seem to mind. Thats not saying he's held to a higher standard. It's just not that big of a deal.

[B]Chis Cooley is my favorite Redskin, but he didn't recieve half the hell when he knocked out that ball out of bounds on purpose to stop the clock and got a 15 yarder for it a few years ago IN THE HEAT of the moment.[/B]

I'm glad he attempted to hold the play so the booth had time to review it. It shows me that he cares about giving up plays even in a preseason game. [B]I suppose if he just walked off the field and shrugged his shoulders then Gtripp would be here talking about that as well. He's obviously against D. Hall and that's his choice so there will be no changing his opinion on the guy, no matter if he has 15 INT's this year and 3 touchdowns. [/B]

Let's just let it be, and put this thread back on oand make a new thread.[/quote]Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828361]So then we basically disagree on whether Hall is a true playmaker or not, but agree that his playmaking skill set is certainly not a commodity among other starting corners. You can get his ability to find the football with many other starters in the NFL, plus countless future draft pick college players.

My point was just when you frame the Hall value debate as "a high risk player who gives high reward," everyone always overstates Hall's (in my opinion) playmaking value towards that of other corners (in your opinion). Proponents of the guy often act like he's the only guy who is capable of intercepting a pass in the NFL, and god forbid he not be here some day because then who will get turnovers?

If you make this a defensive backs argument, it's easy to find 30 safeties who make positive impact plays much more than Hall. But of course you can, safeties don't always have a coverage responsibility. Corners always do, which is why Hall's downside is often understated, in my opinion.[/quote]

How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Great review SS33 ( John Madden ) :) . Very direct in your view , thanks for the insight. Good luck everyone , Irene is here .

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Good read SS33.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=12thMan;828383]How do you define and/or categorize playmaking? Maybe my definition is too simplistic but when Hall touches the ball, which is fairly often in his case, he's a threat to score nearly every time. Sorry, but most NFL cornerbacks don't have that quality and they certainly aren't falling off trees coming out of college either. He forces fumbles and makes interceptions. That's a pretty straight forward analysis to me. The Redskins weren't causing turnovers or scoring touchdowns for some time prior to signing D.Hall. So for all the players available that are capable of getting turnovers, they sure as hell weren't playing for the Washington Redskins.

Your list of corners that are better than D.Hall is quite impressive, but I maintain I watch this guy every week. The other corners, not so much. So it's curious to me how someone --anyone-- can make a true apples to apples comparison across the entire league, dismiss stats, and drop one cornerback near the back of the pack. Admittedly, I watch mostly NFC and NFC East games and whatever else is being nationally televised. I haven't seen the other cornerbacks play enough for me to conclude with certainty, yes this guy or that guy is hands down better than D.Hall. To be completely honest about Nmandi being the best corner, I even come to that conclusion based on consensus around the league, not because I've actually seen him play a lot of games. For instance, I've watched Terrence Newman play quite a bit. I think he's a very good NFL cornerback. But I distinctly remember for a few years he sucked. At least in my opinion he did. He's grown as a professional and has established himself as one of the better players at that position.

Lastly, why do you think D.Hall is more self-absorbed than other cornerback or football player in general? Your characterization seems biased in my opinion.[/quote]When he has the ball in his hands? Oh yeah, Hall is fantastic with the ball in his hands. He's a threat to take it to the house every time. One of the very best in the game. For 4 plays in any given season. That's more than $3 million/play, if you do the math.

The more liberal we use the definition, the fewer plays Hall actually makes relative to the competition. I'm not saying we all should define playmaking as hard hits + difficult pass breakups + against the top level competition + interceptions and strips + scoring opportunities. That's a very broad stroke I'm painting with. I also started in reply to you by saying I hardly expect anyone to agree. I freely admitted to looking at it differently than the norm. And I don't feel that's a bad thing.

I can't claim to be without bias when it comes to Redskins players, so I won't try to convince anyone. The assertion that I'm biased against DHall, specifically (and because I hate him), is beyond silly and has no basis in reality. The assertion that I am biased because he's a Redskin and all the other corners I'm grading are not Redskins is far more rooted in reality. To that I'd say: of course. I consider myself informed, sure, but take the actual subjective ranking of a Redskins player against a non-Redskin with a grain of salt. There's definitely bias here, no matter how objective I try to be.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

And let me be neither the last or first to add: good breakdown Slinging Sammy 33.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828370]Yes, but Cooley's play killed any chance of a turnover and no one could possibly conclude he was being me-first or selfish by preserving the possession for the Redskins, even after he committed an illegal bat. The Cooley-equivalent of what Hall did would be if he lost the fumble, it was recovered by the defense, and then if Cooley pointed at three different officials to argue that he was down by contact, and then went and stood behind the opposing huddle and got an offside penalty in protest. And then I would absolutely argue that Cooley was being selfish. Of course, that didn't happen.

[B]The second point is just mindbogglingly stupid[/B]. That's exactly what any player fighting for their job would and should have done. If I had chosen to remark about the on-field play, that's not hating, that's having some semblance of awareness about what is happening during the football game. But since I never even went in that direction, this is total lunacy.[/quote]


I think your hatred for one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=Bucket;828394]I think your hatred for one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall[/quote]Except I'm not even remotely anti-Hall. It's silly to say that.

I had a problem with what Hall did on Thursday. It was disgraceful. I was very much anti-Hall apologist to that action. Sorry if I offended you.

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=Bucket;828394]I think your hatred for [B]one of the best CB's the Redskins have ever had [/B]is pretty mindbogglingly. It's obvious to the whole community your are anti-Hall[/quote]

Umm, no. He is not in the top 5 of "ever had" and I would trade him tomorrow for Smoot in his prime.

Parrish, Fisher, Bailey, Smoot, Springs, Green, ...

Hall is in the same class as Barry Wilburn, Rogers, Joe Lavender, Cris Dishman & Tom Carter. All these guys had there moments but were replaceable. Same as Hall.

At the same time, GTripp is in denial of Hall Hatred! ;)

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;828407]At the same time, GTripp is in denial of Hall Hatred! ;)[/quote]No I'm not!

I want my Carlos Rogers jersey!

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

HALL Hater...EHhhh?
I'll be PM'ing you my Haynesworth J........

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Wait, timeout, I need someone to tell me whether or not I'm a Haynesworth hater. I totally don't know who I hate anymore.

Can somebody please help me?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;828407]Umm, no. He is not in the top 5 of "ever had" and I would trade him tomorrow for Smoot in his prime.

Parrish, Fisher, Bailey, Smoot, Springs, Green, ...

Hall is in the same class as Barry Wilburn, Rogers, Joe Lavender, Cris Dishman & Tom Carter. All these guys had there moments but were replaceable. Same as Hall.

At the same time, GTripp is in denial of Hall Hatred! ;)[/quote]

Considering he's only 27, and had his best season in his career last year. I would say he's not replaceable...

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

JoeRedskin, Smoot better than Hall? Really?

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;828413]Wait, timeout, I need someone to tell me whether or not I'm a Haynesworth hater. I totally don't know who I hate anymore.

Can somebody please help me?[/quote]

ummm isnt everybody supposed to hate fat al at this point?? Hes like the guy that stole your chocolate milk at lunch and then whipped your a$$ because he thought it was funny...whoa..that just brought back some repressed memories..

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

Here's some entertaining reading:

[url=http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=79054]NFL Forum :: - DeAngelo Hall rips Steve Smith...[/url]

Re: Smoot Lays the Smack Down (Redskins vs. Ravens)
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;828359]UPDATED: Finally had a chance to review the game. Hopefully this is a preview of a weekly SS33 Game Review.

OL - Huge improvement from last year. Familiarity with the ZB scheme is helping the guys from last year. I finally saw an important component of the ZB scheme that was missing last year.....the cut blocks. On the Hightower TD, the cut from KL took down two Ravens and opened the cutback lane. I specifically saw good two good cuts by TW and another by KL. Didn't notice any from Brown/Chester, but hope they're coming.

Monty at C, without bashing ol' turnstile Rabach for a paragraph, let's just say Monty is a huge upgrade at C. The only bad play from him was a mis-communication between him and Chester that allowed the DT to shoot the A gap and blow up a run. Monty went 2nd level too early and Chester couldn't reach the DT.

Pass-pro is much improved. Not seeing the OL getting beaten with a 4 or 5 man rush. The OL is getting at worst a stalemate in pass-pro, which is a win and big improvement from last year where our OL were not only doing a poor job of blitz pick-up, but were losing individual battles.

Blitz Pick-up - An area that needs work, but with new players at C, RG, RB and TE this should improve and is an area that can be "coached up". TW has to get better at reading overload C-gap pressure and stay home rather than get sucked down to the B gap. Brown and Chester need to improve communication in passing the rushers between them. The blitz pick-up appears to be more of an issue on Brown's side. Hopefully by game 4-5 Brown, Chester and the backs/Davis will have settled in.

Davis is much improved in blocking and appears to be taking pride in this effort here. He still has work to do in blitz pick-up, but the run blocking appears to be coming along well and he's showing "want-to".

Hightower looks to be a great fit, excellent cut in the open field on the TD, also excellent explosion and "second gear" which we haven't had in our backfield in quite some time. He did well in pass-pro, another good "want to" showing.

Austin has earned a roster spot. Sure hands, making plays, appears to have a good grasp on his responsibilities.

Our O faced the Ravens 1st team D and played well, I wouldn't say "dominated" but they did win the battle up front and displayed a very good effort all around.

DL - Very pleased here. Cofield is showing why he was the most improtant off-season acquisition. He holds his ground in the run game and creates pressure in the pass game. The base 3-4 rush and 4-man front are getting pressure without needing blitz support....huge improvement from last year. I really like the even front with Rak and Kerrigan off the edges and Cofield and possibly Carriker/Bowen/Scott (JJ loss is awful, overall we'll be fine but he was a pleasant surprise).

Not real happy with Bowen's pre-snap stance (I get in a similar stance in the early AM), but he's doing his job so far.

I think Scott earned himself a roster spot with his versatility and effort. He created good pressure in pass rush and held up well in the run game overall.

Defensive Secondary: We've discussed Hall in other posts so I won't repeat.

Rushkins made a great post on this earlier. We are going to be hurt by not having OJA and LL on the field together in camp and pre-season. There were two specific plays where OJA was completely lost/out of position. The one that hurt most was the Boldin cross. OJA gets sucked out of his zone by the post and Boldin comes underneath into his vacated zone for a big play. I initially thought Hall got sucked up on a flat route, but a closer look showed a Cover 3 Zone deep and OJA was the culprit. Also, our youngsters didn't play particularly well, Gomes and Jones didn't help their cause.

Rak looked very good, Kerrigan too. Not worried about the penalties on 91, they're effort penalties and will be corrected. I'd like to see Neild make the team, he's doing a good job holding his ground and taking up space in the run game. He got a good push in pass rush, but I don't think he'll ever be considered a sack threat.

I liked the playcalls by Haslett. Good mix on D, different looks, coverages, blitzes.

I think Locklear, Golston, and Clemens can be cut.

And finally.....Beck vs. Rex. Beck has a better grasp of the O. He's making the correct reads and quick/accurate throws. The deep INT appeared to be a miscommunication between him and Stallworth that will be corrected once the final 53 is determined and they get familiar with each other. Beck led him in, Stallworth was looking out. If in doubt, throw it out(side) should be the rule of thumb....less chance for INT. Or Beck just made a $hitty throw....but I think it was the former.

Rex is still the same guy, great throws in stretches, but too many poor throws/reads that will kill drives and lose games. Before the TD, Smith should've picked him on a VERY poor throw. That being said Moss dropped a TD right before that. Rex also doesn't identify the blitz and coverage quite as quickly as Beck does.

SS, 12th, 53, thanks for the kind words. Any reviews I do are Warpath Exclusives :) I'll do my best to keep them up every week.[/quote]

SS33, your value to this site should never be in question. Great job.