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[quote=SFREDSKIN;852144]I agree, Stallworth should be cut and Kareem Moore activated.[/quote]

actually surprised that hasn't happened yet.

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[quote=Mattyk;852140]I'm with you.

I thought Beck played well enough to where I'm curious to see what he can do as he gets more comfortable out there. Grossman is a known commodity, and we know what his ceiling is. Beck is still unknown in that regard.[/quote]

What makes someone a "known commodity"? the fact he's taken a team to a SB? or the fact he throws INT's? Beck is a known commodity also... he's thrown INT's, has not stuck as the starter in his two previous teams, and has not taken anyone to a SB.

Grossman=Bad.
Beck=Just as Bad.

On top of that they both are 30 or 31. Not much difference. Expect more of the same this weekend.

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[quote=SBXVII;852151]What makes someone a "known commodity"? the fact he's taken a team to a SB? or the fact he throws INT's? Beck is a known commodity also... he's thrown INT's, has not stuck as the starter in his two previous teams, and has not taken anyone to a SB.

Grossman=Bad.
Beck=Just as Bad.

On top of that they both are 30 or 31. Not much difference. Expect more of the same this weekend.[/quote]

known quantity =
RG has 39 career starts, on good teams and bad teams
JB has 5 career starts, on a terrible team (miami) and an unknown(us)

in 8 games with us RG is 4-4
JB doesn't even have 8 games to look at.

so, known quantity means a sample size over time and varying quality level of teams

[QUOTE=CRedskinsRule;852150]actually surprised that hasn't happened yet.[/QUOTE]

Moore is finally ready to practice and may be activated

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;852153]known quantity =
RG has 39 career starts, on good teams and bad teams
JB has 5 career starts, on a terrible team (miami) and an unknown(us)

in 8 games with us RG is 4-4
JB doesn't even have 8 games to look at.

so, known quantity means a sample size over time and varying quality level of teams[/quote]

thanks

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[quote=SBXVII;852151]What makes someone a "known commodity"? [B]the fact he's taken a team to a SB?[/B] or the fact he throws INT's? Beck is a known commodity also... he's thrown INT's, has not stuck as the starter in his two previous teams, and has not taken anyone to a SB.

Grossman=Bad.
Beck=Just as Bad.

On top of that they both are 30 or 31. Not much difference. Expect more of the same this weekend.[/quote]

Rex didn't take the Bears to the SB - the Bears took Rex in spite of himself. That year he had 23 TD's and 20 INT's that year with a 54% completion rate. On top of that he only had one 300+ yard passing game, with 6 games where he didn't even make 200 yards (he had one 24 yard passing game - yes, you read that right). Not exactly, "taking the team" anywhere.

With that said, I am not expecting much more from Beck. He has been inaccurate & made poor decisions in both games. He is more mobile, so maybe he isn't [I]quite[/I] as bad as Sexy, but I just don't think he is much of an upgrade. There is a reason Shanny started Rex in front of him and, from what I can tell, it was purely performance based.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;852167][B]Rex didn't take the Bears to the SB - the Bears took Rex in spite of himself. [/B]That year he had 23 TD's and 20 INT's that year with a 54% completion rate. On top of that he only had one 300+ yard passing game, with 6 games where he didn't even make 200 yards (he had one 24 yard passing game - yes, you read that right). Not exactly, "taking the team" anywhere.

With that said, I am not expecting much more from Beck. He has been inaccurate & made poor decisions in both games. He is more mobile, so maybe he isn't [I]quite[/I] as bad as Sexy, but I just don't think he is much of an upgrade. There is a reason Shanny started Rex in front of him and, from what I can tell, it was purely performance based.[/quote]

I remember watching a game during that season where I saw one of the worst QB performances ever and it was by Grossman. The defense and teams won that game all by themselves. That was the famous Dennis Green meltdown at his press conference after the game. lol.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;852153]known quantity =
RG has 39 career starts, on good teams and bad teams
JB has 5 career starts, on a terrible team (miami) and an unknown(us)

in 8 games with us RG is 4-4
JB doesn't even have 8 games to look at.

so, known quantity means a sample size over time and varying quality level of teams[/quote]

Somehow we are forgetting he was on the Ravens and apparently was not good enough to be starter for any of the 16 games.

See I don't have a problem with people saying Grossman had 8 games lets give Beck 8 games. Fine. and that might be simply how you feel. But the people I don't get are the Beck is better then Grossman when Beck has not even played but 1 game for us. Clearly one would need 8 games to get an honest opinion of him vs. finger pointing at one and making excuses for the other when statistically the numbers are similar.

People didn't like Grossman because he has atleast 2 turnovers a game. Beck just had a game with 2 turnovers and reasonably should have been 3. People say we know what we got in Grossman, and honestly we really don't. The coaches know what they got in Grossman and they know what they got in Beck. I'm hedging two very similar stat wise QB's talent wise with the difference being ones mobile and ones not. and I'm not saying both are the same but one is more mobile, I'm saying Becks mobility is off set by Grossmans ability to change plays or ability to know where to go with the ball. Basically all things balance out. If people said Grossman or Cam Newton I'd totally agree with you that he's by far a more talented QB over Grossman and is mobile.

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[quote=SmootSmack;852155]Moore is finally ready to practice and may be activated[/quote]

ha ha... will he stay healthy. I hope he does cause the team sure could use him.

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Yeah. That was the Chi/Minn game where the final score was 10-2. Chicago's offense had a total of about 100 yards (This was 24 yard passing game). Minnesota had over 300 yards but couldn't score.

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[quote=SBXVII;852185][B]Somehow we are forgetting he was on the Ravens and apparently was not good enough to be starter for any of the 16 games.[/B]

See I don't have a problem with people saying Grossman had 8 games lets give Beck 8 games. Fine. and that might be simply how you feel. But the people I don't get are the Beck is better then Grossman when Beck has not even played but 1 game for us. Clearly one would need 8 games to get an honest opinion of him vs. finger pointing at one and making excuses for the other when statistically the numbers are similar.

People didn't like Grossman because he has atleast 2 turnovers a game. Beck just had a game with 2 turnovers and reasonably should have been 3. People say we know what we got in Grossman, and honestly we really don't. The coaches know what they got in Grossman and they know what they got in Beck. I'm hedging two very similar stat wise QB's talent wise with the difference being ones mobile and ones not. and I'm not saying both are the same but one is more mobile, I'm saying Becks mobility is off set by Grossmans ability to change plays or ability to know where to go with the ball. Basically all things balance out. If people said Grossman or Cam Newton I'd totally agree with you that he's by far a more talented QB over Grossman and is mobile.[/quote]

What? You mean a backup qb wasn't able to beat out the established starter? Crazy. He must be worthless then.

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[quote=SBXVII;852185]Somehow we are forgetting he was on the Ravens and apparently was not good enough to be starter for any of the 16 games.

See I don't have a problem with people saying Grossman had 8 games lets give Beck 8 games. Fine. and that might be simply how you feel. But the people I don't get are the Beck is better then Grossman when Beck has not even played but 1 game for us. Clearly one would need 8 games to get an honest opinion of him vs. finger pointing at one and making excuses for the other when statistically the numbers are similar.

People didn't like Grossman because he has atleast 2 turnovers a game. Beck just had a game with 2 turnovers and reasonably should have been 3. People say we know what we got in Grossman, and honestly we really don't. The coaches know what they got in Grossman and they know what they got in Beck. I'm hedging two very similar stat wise QB's talent wise with the difference being ones mobile and ones not. and I'm not saying both are the same but one is more mobile, I'm saying Becks mobility is off set by Grossmans ability to change plays or ability to know where to go with the ball. Basically all things balance out. If people said Grossman or Cam Newton I'd totally agree with you that he's by far a more talented QB over Grossman and is mobile.[/quote]

I have never understood the Ravens statement. Fact is they have Flacco, who had a stupendous first year, and his position as starter has never been seriously in jeopardy, that I know of. If you want to say they let Beck go for Dutch, well I get that, but he wasn't ever going to get a serious look over Flacco.

As for the rest, Beck will get his time, and will prove himself to be whatever he will be.
[quote=Beck_to_the_Future_Part III]Shanny, the future isn't written. It can be changed, you know that. Anyone can make their future whatever they want it to be. I can't let this one little photograph determine my entire destiny. I have to live my life according to what I believe is right in my heart. [/quote]

Any word on Atogwe's injury?

Sent from my Samsung Epic 4G.

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[quote=SBXVII;852185]Somehow we are forgetting he was on the Ravens and apparently was not good enough to be starter for any of the 16 games.

See I don't have a problem with people saying Grossman had 8 games lets give Beck 8 games. Fine. and that might be simply how you feel. But [B]the people I don't get are the Beck is better then Grossman when Beck has not even played but 1 game for us. [/B]Clearly one would need 8 games to get an honest opinion of him vs. finger pointing at one and making excuses for the other when statistically the numbers are similar.

People didn't like Grossman because he has atleast 2 turnovers a game. Beck just had a game with 2 turnovers and reasonably should have been 3. People say we know what we got in Grossman, and honestly we really don't. The coaches know what they got in Grossman and they know what they got in Beck. I'm hedging two very similar stat wise QB's talent wise with the difference being ones mobile and ones not. and I'm not saying both are the same but one is more mobile, I'm saying Becks mobility is off set by Grossmans ability to change plays or ability to know where to go with the ball. Basically all things balance out. If people said Grossman or Cam Newton I'd totally agree with you that he's by far a more talented QB over Grossman and is mobile.[/quote]

Wait, who is saying Beck is "better" than Rex? I must have missed something b/c what I have been seeing is people saying - "Well, Rex played true to form and stunk it up; [I]Maybe [/I]Beck will show he has actually learned something sitting on the bench. He is unlikely to be any worse than Rex".

Sorry a big "LOL" @ "Grossmans ability to change plays or ability to know where to go with the ball." - Sorry, when I watched Rex, I was constantly screaming "The ball goes to the guys in Burgundy - IN BURGUNDY!!!" He seemed to have difficulty grasping this at times.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;852167]Rex didn't take the Bears to the SB - the Bears took Rex in spite of himself. That year he had 23 TD's and 20 INT's that year with a 54% completion rate. On top of that he only had one 300+ yard passing game, with 6 games where he didn't even make 200 yards (he had one 24 yard passing game - yes, you read that right). Not exactly, "taking the team" anywhere.

With that said, I am not expecting much more from Beck. He has been inaccurate & made poor decisions in both games. He is more mobile, so maybe he isn't [I]quite[/I] as bad as Sexy, but I just don't think he is much of an upgrade. There is a reason Shanny started Rex in front of him and, from what I can tell, it was purely performance based.[/quote]

and all of it falls on the QB. right? He had awsome WR's that "he" never got the ball to. He had awesome plays sent in by the OC that were not executed well by "him". All his WR's ran perfect routes and he simply threw the ball to the opponant. The only way you can judge him is by his stats and we don't even know if all those stats were attributed to being his fault.

But I'll back off that arguement a moment. Beck was so good the Ravens picked him up and wanted to protect him so they made him their second stringer. right? The Ravens are a good team. no excuses there as to why he wasn't starting and taking the Ravens to the SB?

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[quote=SBXVII;852196]and all of it falls on the QB. right? He had awsome WR's that "he" never got the ball to. He had awesome plays sent in by the OC that were not executed well by "him". All his WR's ran perfect routes and he simply threw the ball to the opponant. The only way you can judge him is by his stats and we don't even know if all those stats were attributed to being his fault.

But I'll back off that arguement a moment. Beck was so good the Ravens picked him up and wanted to protect him so they made him their second stringer. right? [B]The Ravens are a good team. no excuses there as to why he wasn't starting and taking the Ravens to the SB?[/B][/quote]

Really? You really think it's as simple as that? You honestly think Beck should've been able to beat out their starting qb that they drafted in the first round the year before and who had played well up until that point?

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[quote=SBXVII;852196]and all of it falls on the QB. right? He had awsome WR's that "he" never got the ball to. He had awesome plays sent in by the OC that were not executed well by "him". All his WR's ran perfect routes and he simply threw the ball to the opponant. The only way you can judge him is by his stats and we don't even know if all those stats were attributed to being his fault.[/quote]

Are you seriously suggesting that Grossman "took" the bears to the SB?? I make no suggestions as to the competence or lack thereof of the Bears 2006 offense, I merely suggest that Grossman did [I]not[/I] take the team to the SB, but that he (like the rest of the offense that year) was merely along for the ride. You suggested that he was a SB quarterback, I merely would point out that so was Trent Dilfer (who was replaced the very next year by his team).

As for judging from his stats - Rex's stats from that year are consistent with his historical stat line, so he may have had average teammates, but he certainly wasn't pulling a P. Manning and carrying his team. The SB was an anomoly caused by his amazing defense that year and not indicative anything more than Dilferesque ability on the part of Rex.

[quote=SBXVII;852196]But I'll back off that arguement a moment. Beck was so good the Ravens picked him up and wanted to protect him so they made him their second stringer. right? The Ravens are a good team. no excuses there as to why he wasn't starting and taking the Ravens to the SB?[/quote]

Huh? Just huh? Sorry, I rely on prior retorts on this one. It's just an epic fail of an argument.

Again, maybe Beck does better, maybe not. It is unlikely he will be much worse although certainly he may do so, and, unfortunately, it is not unlikely that Beck will be just as bad as Grossman was. Let's see what he does with the keys to the car.

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Beck is the next QB to win a SB with the Redskins.

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Brian Urlacher took the Bears to the Super Bowl.
Grossman rode along and enjoyed the view.

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[quote=Alvin Walton;852211]Brian Urlacher too the Bears to the Super Bowl.
Grossman rode along and [I][B]enjoyed the view[/B][/I].[/quote]


The ride.........he enjoyed the RIDE!!!!!!

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[quote=Bucket;852210]Beck is the next QB to win a SB with the Redskins.[/quote]

I wish I had whatever you are smoking. Could it happen? Sure. Do we currently have solid reason to believe that it will happen? Nope.

Don't bogart that spliff, man.

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[quote=SBXVII;852113]SirClintonPortis,

Your just guessing. No different then everyone "thought" Beck would start and light it up proving that Grossman was as bad as everyone says he is and the savior Beck would change everything and this team would be back in the play off hunt.

Yeah.... that didn't happen, especially against probably the worst defense. So although you can make predictions off of old stats... no one really knows what he will do for us. All I was pointing out is that Hankerson is not doing any better and that considering other teams still might double him up that would leave someone else open or T.O. one on one. I'm not saying bring in T.O. cause he will change everything and he will set this team right. Heck I wouldn't even say that about Moss if he was healthy. No one player makes a whole team.

No different then I said Beck would be just as bad because of the WR's and because the coaching staff would not probably use him to the best of his abilities. Would T.O. come in and solve everything putting up a ton of yrds catching? I don't know, and honestly you really don't know. If the team used him for what he can do now, short to intermediate routes as a possession WR, then AA and Gaffney can go long with their speed. Could he start right away? he's been in the league long enough to know the routes. It would be more about terminology. Coaching staff gets him up to speed on 10 to 15 plays he might be helpful especially on 3rd downs just for starters.
[/quote] Just like actuaries guess about the accident rate when calculating insurance premiums. Guessing the expected utilty from buying something is quite prevalent in a lot of subjects.

Descriptive statistics can be used to form ballpark estimates on data. This "guessing" is done by analysts for many more important things than football, biology and finance being two of the subjects that employ such things. I may not know exact values of the stats, but I [I]can[/I] try to make a guess that is close.

Beck has had 2 years to learn the offense but he had absolutely no data whatsoever to form any projections "stat-based" projections. The only projections that could be made for John Beck is from [I]empirical[/I] analysis, aka looking at tape, and even that was limited.

T.O, on the other hand, has data to work with. My high prediction on his performance is not far off from the average of his touchdowns(approximately 5) and yards(approximately 62) for the past three years. The standard deviation for his yards is 9.59. Most likely, he will contribute anywhere between 820 yards and 420 yards, and between 2 to 8 touchdowns.
So, far this is all just basic statistics. Now, one can delve even further and look into aspects of T.O's game to further narrow that range on what could be his "real" production here, but you can get some sense on what T.O's "outer limits" of production are. Then, the matter is about whether it's worth getting this kind of production over banking on unknowns that have no data to hint either way on how they are going to play [B]both in the present and the future[/B].

Leonard Hankerson has done nothing, hence no descriptive statistics can be used for analysis on what he might do production-wise. My point is why he is on the roster despite his giant goose-egg, and why he and every other prospect deserves a roster spot for US over a hedge like T.O. He is only on the roster because there's a small chance(VERY SMALL) he can provide a 7000+ yards in 7 years and provide many touchdowns in his career. Essentially, he is like an IPO stock you add to a portfolio to make big increases to your returns. Of course, he should [I]not[/I] be the only "big gamble" on the roster since he is so likely to fail. What we should be doing is stuffing the roster full of other high-risk, high-reward prospects(up to a reasonable level, of course) so at least one of them sticks. What we need are players with huge returns, not hedges like T.O. Hankerson is just one of many attempts we should be trying to get a true #1. [B]If he fails, so be it. Cut his ass and find another prospect, not hedges like T.O. [/B]The Draft and FA occurs every year. There is always opportunity to restock from those sources.

Besides, I highly doubt we need T.O to be the Wide Receiver Buddha for our young kids. Less athletic and successful WRs could also serve as a teacher and mentor to our young'uns since teaching football(or anything else, for that matter) is a whole different animal from playing football, and T.O is nutty enough that I'd stay away from him. Moss isn't going to IR yet; he could still be giving pointer on the sideline.
[quote]People love to mention how he drops balls. Hello, we are not seeing anything different out of AA, Gaffney, Stallworth, Hankerson...etc. etc. So basically all I suggested was the team going out to see how healthy he is, if healthy then think about bringing him in as a replacement for Moss until he gets healthy. Stallworth has a hamstring injury for which he was out last week. Is he healthy? Is AA completely healthy? Hightower is out for the season. If T.O. looked good I'd think about bringing him in to fill Hightower's spot and play WR until Moss is healthy. Depending on how well or bad he did the team can decide what to do with him later. Cut him. Keep him. Whatever.[/quote]
One of your points is that he is to play the role of possession receiver. One of the qualities a possession receiver must have is sure hands since that helps move the chains. Being in a bromance with your QB is also required(this is a joke). Having a high frequency of drops(over 20 in some years) is one sign that a player is [I]not[/I] suitable for a possession type role. He might contribute elsewhere, but not in a possession receiver role.

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For you T.O. fans...no one attended his audition today.

[url=http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20111025_to_will_continue_to_play_the_waiting_game_after_workout]T.O. will continue to play the waiting game after workout - NFL - Yahoo! Sports[/url]

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With Moss being out what does everyone think about possibly bringing in Bernard Berrian? He was just cut by the Vikings, and he has some good speed that can be used to stretch the field. It might be worth a shot. He is only 30 so he could possibly have a couple years left of elite speed. I wouldnt be against the move, but I can also see letting the younger guys get some PT.

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I wouldn't sign anyone.

Next guy up.

Paul, Hankerson, Austin, buckle your chinstraps and go play.

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I think HANK has to play now

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More cowbell, more Austin!

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[quote=Mattyk;852234]I wouldn't sign anyone.

Next guy up.

Paul, Hankerson, Austin, buckle your chinstraps and go play.[/quote]

This. And this again.

Let's find out what we got, how they fit and if they should stay.

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[quote=sdskinsfan2001;852233]With Moss being out what does everyone think about possibly bringing in Bernard Berrian? He was just cut by the Vikings, and he has some good speed that can be used to stretch the field. It might be worth a shot. He is only 30 so he could possibly have a couple years left of elite speed. I wouldnt be against the move, but I can also see letting the younger guys get some PT.[/quote]

Nope. What the others have said. Let the young guys prove their mettle. Also Bernard Berrian sucks. When you're a healthy deactivation for a game it's usually a sign that you are not that good.

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[quote=Mattyk;852234]I wouldn't sign anyone.

Next guy up.

Paul, Hankerson, Austin, buckle your chinstraps and go play.[/quote]You need only sign 1 person to handle both jobs and that is ......TIKI Barber,he'll help you at running back and has the speed to be a reciever ...with a good set of hands.:twocents:

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Chris Cooley placed on IR. Not sure if this has been posted yet.

AdamSchefter Adam Schefter
Redskins have placed tight end Chris Cooley and running back Tim Hightower on IR.
4 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Rich_Campbell Rich Campbell
Now the question is whether Cooley, who will turn 30 next July, has played his last snap for the Redskins. He is under contract for 2012.
2 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Rich_Campbell Rich Campbell
Cooley was determined to return this season. He said that before he met with orthopedist James Andrews on Sunday.
4 minutes ago

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DAMN! I hate that for Cooley....

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Signed this dude to the practice squad today. Could mean Royster moves up soon. John Malecki released

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Davis]Tristan Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

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[quote=Mattyk;852234]I wouldn't sign anyone.

Next guy up.

Paul, Hankerson, Austin, buckle your chinstraps and go play.[/quote]

Yep.

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[quote=Mattyk;852234]I wouldn't sign anyone.

Next guy up.

Paul, Hankerson, Austin, buckle your chinstraps and go play.[/quote]

But no!! We need Malcolm Kelly ;)

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You'll be glad I'm not the HC cause this is what I'd do...

promote Royster (RB) from the PS to the active roster to take Hightowers spot.

Because we have Davis and Paulson looked good last week I'd look to get Sellers and Young more involved.

Then I'd promote Robinson (WR) to the active roster even if it meant only giving him a hand full of plays. Maybe 10 tops. I'd give Hankerson about 10 plays also and tell them to learn them forwards and backwards.

Then I'd put a TE on the PS, they already have added a RB to the PS.

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I'm glad cooleys on IR. He wasn't going to do anything for us this year anyway, with a knee injury that was recurring and a shattered finger. He just looked slower this year, and like he wasn't that interested in playing when he was out there. Fred Davis has shed weight and gone out there playing like an Antonio Gates type of TE. He's made me forget about Cooley. I think Cooley may return next year, but not for much, even though he's a fan favorite, being that he was drafted in the same year we got ST, and that he was one of the few guys who panned out in our drafts. Add in that his last name was Cooley, and that he was one of the few good white players on our team, and bam we had our fan favorite. Goodbye Chris. I know you'll enjoy doing what you love doing most. Pottery and Christy!

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[quote=CultBrennan59;852368]I'm glad cooleys on IR. He wasn't going to do anything for us this year anyway, with a knee injury that was recurring and a shattered finger. He just looked slower this year, and like he wasn't that interested in playing when he was out there. Fred Davis has shed weight and gone out there playing like an Antonio Gates type of TE. He's made me forget about Cooley. I think Cooley may return next year, but not for much, even though he's a fan favorite, being that he was drafted in the same year we got ST, and that he was one of the few guys who panned out in our drafts. Add in that his last name was Cooley, [B]and that he was one of the few good white players on our team,[/B] and bam we had our fan favorite. Goodbye Chris. I know you'll enjoy doing what you love doing most. Pottery and Christy![/quote]

Okay.. I'll go there.

What's the fact that he's white have to do with anything? :confused:

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[quote=DynamiteRave;852376]Okay.. I'll go there.

What's the fact that he's white have to do with anything? :confused:[/quote]

It's a mostly black sport. It's nice to see someone else be good. It's like being a fan of Yao Ming in Basketball. Or Juan Pablo Montoya in Nascar. Or Donald Brashier for the Capitals. You get where I'm going here?

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[quote=DynamiteRave;852376]Okay.. I'll go there.

What's the fact that he's white have to do with anything? :confused:[/quote]

Just had to go there didn't you?