Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1002217]I think we do get outraged here, but the point is, [B]its culturely acceptable in the Middle East.[/B] Its clearly not here.

But like I said before, violence against women is actually a small part of equality rights of women over there. Violence is the end result, kinda like my article. There was an honor attempted killing only because the woman had no choice or say in the matter of who she could be with.[/quote]

Thats a false, ignorant, and racist statement.

[quote=Chico23231;1002218]wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong[/quote]

No, you are wrong. You mistakenly are equating women's [B]civil rights [/B]with [B]tolerance of violence against women.[/B] No one questions that women have far less civil rights in middle eastern countries. But those same countries have laws which consider attacks on women to be criminal.

On the flip side, women have equal civil rights with men in the US, but that doesnt make them any safer from domestic violence. Men mistreating women is a universal problem. There are small communities all over the world where men can essentially do what they want to women with impunity, but those pockets are not representative of the society as a whole.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

If its culturaly acceptable there then their culture sucks boils on a red baboons ass.
They are medieval thinking dirtbags.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1002220]If its culturaly acceptable there then their culture sucks boils on a red baboons ass.
They are medieval thinking dirtbags.[/quote]

For the very small tribal pockets of Afghanistan that are ruled by religious extremists, you are right. But that culture is not representative of the majority of Afghanistan or the middle east. Chico's comments reflect ignorance at best.

[QUOTE=BigHairedAristocrat;1002226]For the very small tribal pockets of Afghanistan that are ruled by religious extremists, you are right. But that culture is not representative of the majority of Afghanistan or the middle east. Chico's comments reflect ignorance at best.[/QUOTE]

Your opinion or a fact? Please post something to substantiate this assertion.

How familiar are you with FGM? It's eerily connected with a particular culture/religion and practiced by their adherents when they emigrate to other countries. If that's not violence against women, I don't know what it is.

[URL="http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/index.html"]FGM FACT SHEET[/URL]

Not so common in the misogynistic (according to you) US.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

An example of equal rights and violence against women in Egypt from the political party that put Morsi in power:

In response to a proposed United Nations declaration to condemn violence against women, the Brotherhood issued a statement asserting that [B]wives should not have the right to file legal complaints[/B] against their husbands for rape, that daughters should not have the same inheritance rights as sons, and that the husband must have "guardianship" over his wife, recommending the "husband's consent in matters like travel, work or use of contraception."

Obviously this is not an minority but a strong political party whose candidate now leads one of the largest Islamic countries in the world.

And to call someone a racist is a bit much

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Chico23231;1002239]And to call someone a racist is a bit much[/quote]

First gambit of someone with no real argument.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002226]For the very small tribal pockets of Afghanistan that are ruled by religious extremists, you are right. But that culture is not representative of the majority of Afghanistan or the middle east. Chico's comments reflect ignorance at best.[/quote]

Saudi Arabian women risk arrest and flogging if they are caught driving an automobile.
Women in Iran have been imprisoned because they were caught riding dirt bikes.
That/they/them is one fecked up culture en masse.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[B][/B][quote=RedskinRat;1002229]Your opinion or a fact? Please post something to substantiate this assertion.

How familiar are you with FGM? It's eerily connected with a particular culture/religion and practiced by their adherents when they emigrate to other countries. If that's not violence against women, I don't know what it is.

[URL="http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/index.html"]FGM FACT SHEET[/URL]

Not so common in the misogynistic (according to you) US.[/quote]

I have posted facts... a whole bunch of them in my previous post. I dont understand how you keep telling me to post something to substantiate my assertation WHEN I ALREADY HAVE. Go back to the previous page.

FGM is exceedingly rare and is viewed as horrific by the vast majority of Muslims. Your trying to racistly assert that the majority muslims/middle eastern culture supports this practice is like saying the majority of American Christians support going to funerals of soldiers with signs that say "God hates fags" because a few extremists do that.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002448]Your trying to racistly assert .[/quote]<SNIP>

Racist? And which 'Race' is islam/moslem?

Once you get that figured out, please come back and I'll set to straight on some other bigoted notions you're stuck on.

Bye!

Re: All things Middle East related
 

"Racist" is such an awesomely demonized word it works well on many levels.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002459]
Racist? And which 'Race' is islam/moslem?[/quote]

Its' Muslim, not moslem... or did you deliberately use the pejorative form of the word because of your obvious discrimination and hatred of people of the religion?


Rat and Alvin:

Your hatred of people, regardless of race or religion, who condone abuse of women in all its forms (domestic violence, rape, mutilation, etc.) is morally justified. I'm 100% with you on that. But judging a billion people in the middle east (the majority of whom are muslims) based on the actions/attitudes of a small minority is cookie cutter racism.

You want to say you dont prejudge people of the middle east and only muslims, then you are a "religious discriminator." Its no different than racism and just as ugly.

Islam doesnt teach that its ok to rape and beat women or perform FGM... thats just a small portion of people who happen to live in those countries and claim to be muslim. Judging the majority of people in those countries based on those few is overt discrimination.

How would you feel if someone beleived you were a "god hates fags" soldier funeral protester just because you lived in the US?

Discrimination is ugly in all its forms. Your comments show you are prejudiced against people from the middle east and/or Muslims. Im ashamed that others here seem to share your ignorant and hateful views.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Spot on dude, I dont deny any of that.
Congrats, you're a well read bleeding heart.
Sorry, cant get past any of that crap after watching people jump to their deaths from the Trade Center.
I'm not a cheek turner.
Eff all of them.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002213]Just used my brain. The article stated:



thats about 1,333 cases of violence against women and girls reported per year. Doesnt that seem shockingly small to you? even on a purely annectodal level, when you think about similar crimes here?

However, since you wanted some substaiting evidence, about 2.3MM people are raped or assaulted by their current or former partner each year. 3-4MM women are beaten or assaulted by their husbands, male lovers, or exboyfriends.
[URL]http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_the_United_States#Incidence_of_domestic_violence[/URL]

Now, I would imagine there would be some overlap between those two statistics, so lets go on the low end and say that equates to about 4MM cases of violent domestic abuse against women in the US per year.

you have 4,000,000 violent assaults against women per year in the US [B]compared to 1,333 reported cases in Afghan[/B]istan. Now, before you the data is skewed due to the US having a much larger population, consider that the US has about 300 million people and Afghanistan has about 30 million (10 times more). So even if you multiplied the Afghan statistics by 10 to correlate the numbers, you'd have 13,333 attacks in Afghanistan to 4,000,000 in the US.

Granted, women are more likely to report crime here than in some of the more "backwater" areas of Afghanistan, but you cant argue with the numbers.

Also, interesting reading is this this UN report on violence against women:

[URL]http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/Worldswomen/WW2010%20Report_by%20chapter(pdf)/violence%20against%20women.pdf[/URL]

The first statement in the report is that violence against women is universal. Neither the US or Afghanistan is on one of the charts shown, but surprisingly, Australia was the 4th most violent country surveyed, with over 50% of women experiencing physical violence in their lives.


Ultimately, my point is this: People get so outraged at these crimes against women in these other countries, but they dont share the same outrage when it happens here. In my opinion, its partly racism. "Its the middle east. Theyre muslim, so theyre so much worse over there." Bull crap. The truth of the matter is, violence against women is so common here (and in pretty much every other country in the "western" world) that we're immune to it. But people are only outraged when we see our "enemies" doing the same things. Its hypocritical and its shameful.[/quote]

Probably because it does not get reported because nothing will be done. Women can actually cause themself more problems if they report abuse. Also in the US what we call abuse is very broad. If I grab my wife to get her attention (not something I'd do) and left a mark what so ever its called an assult. In the middle east they would laugh at you.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]Its' Muslim, not moslem... or did you deliberately use the pejorative form of the word because of your obvious discrimination and hatred of people of the religion?[/quote]

As it's an Arabic word, it's phonetic. It's commonly written that way in older texts. Yes, I mock people of all religions equally.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]Rat and Alvin:

Your hatred of people, regardless of race or religion, who condone abuse of women in all its forms (domestic violence, rape, mutilation, etc.) is morally justified. I'm 100% with you on that. But judging a billion people in the middle east (the majority of whom are muslims) based on the actions/attitudes of a small minority is cookie cutter racism.[/quote]

You're showing YOUR ignorance and bigotry. Only about 350 million people live in the ME, yet their tenets of faith are wider spread and they are surprisingly vocal. There's a chart for that. Let me know if you'd like to see it?

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]You want to say you dont prejudge people of the middle east and only muslims, then you are a "religious discriminator." Its no different than racism and just as ugly. [/quote]

I have NEVER said that, or wanted to. When people base their life on idiotic intangibles I am free to treat them as I see fit. Show me evidence of a god, I'll apologize.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]Islam doesnt teach that its ok to rape and beat women or perform FGM... [/quote]

Yet sadly it's their culture that forces them. Shocking that their faith allows it then, no?

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]thats just a small portion of people who happen to live in those countries and claim to be muslim. Judging the majority of people in those countries based on those few is overt discrimination. [/quote]

So you're saying their faith isn't as strong as their bestial urges?

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]How would you feel if someone beleived you were a "god hates fags" soldier funeral protester just because you lived in the US?[/quote]

Anyone who knows me knows that's not the case, I could care less what most people think of me.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002470]Discrimination is ugly in all its forms. Your comments show you are prejudiced against people from the middle east and/or Muslims. Im ashamed that others here seem to share your ignorant and hateful views.[/quote]

I'm shocked that people know so little about such an abhorrent cult, we all get surprises every day. Hopefully you'll learn something.

p.s. Still hating the off season.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

well, right now the talbian's version of islam says it's cool to recruit 6-10 year olds and turn them into living bombs.

if you haven't seen the first episode of vice (hbo), please check it out. it's like, an actual investigative news show... not worthless/endless opinions or entertainment stories (like fox/cnn/msnbc/etc).

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=firstdown;1002485]Probably because it does not get reported because nothing will be done. Women can actually cause themself more problems if they report abuse. Also in the US what we call abuse is very broad. If I grab my wife to get her attention (not something I'd do) and left a mark what so ever its called an assult. In the middle east they would laugh at you.[/quote]

Abuse is not widely reported here either. Abuse of women is a global epidemic, men will justify it by religion, their upbringing, stress at their jobs, whatever. The excuses are different, but the underlying fact is that there are assholes everywhere. Abuse of women is just as prevalent here as it is everywhere else.

I commend you for treating your wife well. You would be surprised to know hundreds of thousands of American men don't. I'm not trying to defend a demonic religion. My only point in all my posts is that the average afghan Islamic man is no more of an asshole than half the men in any of our neighborhoods. There are extreme afghan Islamic men that are horrific assholes. And there are extreme white male Christian men who are also horrific assholes. Abuse of women us a global problem that transcends race, religion, and nationality. It's not fair to judge a society by a couple of assholes. If we did that, then we'd all be assholes. Judging an entire group of people, based on th actions of a minority, isn't right, it's morally abhorrent and goes against everything we should stand for as citizens.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002588] Judging an entire group of people, based on th actions of a minority, isn't right, it's morally abhorrent and goes against everything we should stand for as citizens.[/quote]

That's where you are wrong. It's not a minority.

We all agree that treating anyone in a dehumanizing way everyone is worse off. Religion has built in excuses for abhorrent behavior.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002624]That's where you are wrong. It's not a minority.

We all agree that treating anyone in a dehumanizing way everyone is worse off. [B]Religion[/B] has built in excuses for abhorrent behavior.[/quote]

Dont get me started on religion. For thousands of years, assholes have used religion to justify all sorts of horrible things. The Catholic Church and Islam have more blood on their hands than any other organizations/governments in the history of mankind. Anyone with a brain who beleives in a benevolent God of some sort could easily recognize that he/she/it would abhor both organizations. Anway, back on topic.

Where I think you are wrong is in your belief that the majority of Muslims condone the sort of behavior we've been talking about in this thread. They dont. Just like the majority of Christians in this country dont condone waving "god hates fags" flags and soldiers funerals. The fact is, the majority of Muslims in the world view the extremists who torture women the same way the majority of Christians view the Westboro Baptist church. That said, i think its obvious that those muslim extremists are even more heinous than the WBC.

On a side note, Moslem is an offensive, perjorative term for Muslims. In Arabic, "Muslim" means "one who gives himself to God." "Moslem" means "one who is evil and unjust." Its a big difference, so most Muslims would take issue with being called "Moslems."

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002628]Dont get me started on religion. For thousands of years, assholes have used religion to justify all sorts of horrible things. The Catholic Church and Islam have more blood on their hands than any other organizations/governments in the history of mankind. Anyone with a brain who beleives in a benevolent God of some sort could easily recognize that he/she/it would abhor both organizations. Anway, back on topic.

Where I think you are wrong is in your belief that the majority of Muslims condone the sort of behavior we've been talking about in this thread. They dont. Just like the majority of Christians in this country dont condone waving "god hates fags" flags and soldiers funerals. The fact is, the majority of Muslims in the world view the extremists who torture women the same way the majority of Christians view the Westboro Baptist church. That said, i think its obvious that those muslim extremists are even more heinous than the WBC.

[B]On a side note, Moslem is an offensive, perjorative term for Muslims. In Arabic, "Muslim" means "one who gives himself to God." "Moslem" means "one who is evil and unjust." Its a big difference, so most Muslims would take issue with being called "Moslems."[/B][/quote]

interesting link on the difference from George Mason University
[url]http://hnn.us/articles/524.html[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

BHA, always be wary of 'decent' people in large groups who just follow along.

I will be sticking with 'moslem', it seems apropos.

But on the topic of pronunciation and spelling: [URL="http://ask.metafilter.com/35958/Potato-potahto-Muslim-Moslem"]This[/URL]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002653][B]BHA, always be wary of 'decent' people in large groups who just follow along.[/B]
I will be sticking with 'moslem', it seems apropos.

But on the topic of pronunciation and spelling: [URL="http://ask.metafilter.com/35958/Potato-potahto-Muslim-Moslem"]This[/URL][/quote]

If you want to continue to use that term, fine. its just not PC and would piss off most muslims. However, it seems you want to piss them off so keep showing your prejudice. It just disturbs me because people with attitudes like yours is the reason so many people in eastern countries hate the US. You want the rest of the world to conform to your personal ideals instead of being respectful of cultural differences. Relationships between cultures will never improve unless both sides are willing to show eachother dignity.

That being said, i would be interested in your expanding on your first statement (bolded). Your point (in relation to this discussion) is not clear to me.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002695]If you want to continue to use that term, fine. its just not PC and would piss off most muslims.[/quote]

No, I'm not PC. I dislike that there's an attempt at moral equivalency.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002695]However, it seems you want to piss them off so keep showing your prejudice.[/quote]

I have no respect for those groups.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002695]It just disturbs me because people with attitudes like yours is the reason so many people in eastern countries hate the US. You want the rest of the world to conform to your personal ideals instead of being respectful of cultural differences. Relationships between cultures will never improve unless both sides are willing to show eachother dignity. [/quote]

They hated us before we even knew they hated us. There's a lot of hate built into most (not all) religious doctrine, that's part of how it expands.

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002695]That being said, i would be interested in your expanding on your first statement (bolded). Your point (in relation to this discussion) is not clear to me.[/quote]

Religion (large groups) gets a pass because it's people's 'faith' and it should be respected. Why, then, do you supposed good people allow their designated group to do vile things?

Look at Western Europe and how religion is ebbing away in the face of education. It won't be long before society treats people of faith like slow children.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic, I know it's not popular with most people. So, thanks.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002702]No, I'm not PC. I dislike that there's an attempt at moral equivalency.

I have no respect for those groups.[/quote]

I have no respect for the WBC or islamic militants or any other hateful organization, but i do have respect for the majority of individual muslims and christians who are generally "good" people. Thats where i think you and i arent seeing eye to eye. You think everyones an Level 10 asshole. I think 90% of people are level 1 Assholes and you shouldnt judge all the the Assholes level 10 just because a few of them are.

[quote=]They hated us before we even knew they hated us. There's a lot of hate built into most (not all) religious doctrine, that's part of how it expands.

Religion (large groups) gets a pass because it's people's 'faith' and it should be respected. Why, then, do you supposed good people allow their designated group to do vile things?[/quote]

I agree with everything you say here, but i think you "align" yourself with Western/Christian people when Western/Christian people are just as responsible for building a culture of intolerance and hate.


[quote]Look at Western Europe and how religion is ebbing away in the face of education. It won't be long before society treats people of faith like slow children.

I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic, I know it's not popular with most people. So, thanks.[/quote]

I'm confident that religion as we know it will be outlawed globally by the UN at some point. I beleive in a Creator, but i also beleive that religions who claim to represent him are responsible for for the vast majority of human suffering. The roots of almost every conflict in history can be traced to religion. Even when religion isnt the direct source of the conflict, it often contributes to it. Do you really think hundreds of millions of men would have killed eachother in WWII if they werent told God was on their sides?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

All I do is judge people on what [I][U]they[/U][/I] do. Not even what they say they'll do, although if they kill in the name of their <[I][U]fill_in_the-blank[/U][/I]> then I'm forewarned they may just do it again.

I am more aligned with Humanists and freethinkers than any Western Christian group.

Unfortunately, the quickest way to encourage a huge religious revival would be the UN (another deplorably corrupt group) banning religion.

As far as religion being toxic, Amen!* People love to tout Nazi's as Atheists yet they had Gott Mitt Uns on their belt buckles and knives. It just looks better on the scorecard.

A Creator? Ok, you lost me.

*[COLOR="White"]Kidding[/COLOR]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

The UN is going to ban religion?
Thats some serious tin foil hat looney talk.....

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002717](snip)[/quote]BHA, from trying to equate this society with sharia law muslim countries that explicitly discriminate against women, to the UN taking away a basic right people do have whether they abuse it or not (freedom of religion). I agree with AlvinWalton, BHA your posts are insane!

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002726]... As far as religion being toxic, Amen! People love to tout Nazi's as Atheists yet they had Gott Mitt Uns on their belt buckles and knives. It just looks better on the scorecard.[/quote]

Ehh, I just stick with the Marxists, Maoist and Khmer Rouge - plenty to run up the tally. No need to add in the Nazis, they have their own little niche of crass pandering to popular religion while actually seeking anything but traditional Christianity [In [I]Inside the Third Reich[/I], Albert Speer intimated that Hitler felt that Islam was more aligned with Nazi philosophy than traditional western Christianity].

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=HailGreen28;1002732]BHA, from trying to equate this society with sharia law muslim countries that explicitly discriminate against women, to the UN taking away a basic right people do have whether they abuse it or not (freedom of religion). I agree with AlvinWalton, BHA your posts are insane![/quote]

I'm not advocating the UN do it, but with religion behind so many of the worlds problems, it seems a logical next step. At some point, they're going to just say "F@ck all you crazy people spewing hate - enough already." I mean, aside from extremists, who really cares anymore anyway. Does ANYONE go to church?

Re: All things Middle East related
 

LOL....the UN isnt going to do squat....FFS

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1002754]LOL....the UN isnt going to do squat....FFS[/quote]

Considering they generally just sit idly by while genocide goes on, you have a point. I guess my main point was that these big religous organizations are responsible for for so much bigotry and hatred. Sooner or later, people will see them for what they are and realize they are a roadblock to peaceful relations.

I'm not arguing that Islam as a whole doesnt promote discrimination against women, becuase it does. But it doesnt teach [B]violence [/B]against women - thats just the extremists.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

About 100% correct:

[IMG]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47630_474401828935_4648430_n.jpg[/IMG]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002873]About 100% correct:

[IMG]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47630_474401828935_4648430_n.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

lol ... I'll give you about 90% correct, but it would be hard to argue the point.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;1002879]lol ... I'll give you about 90% correct, but it would be hard to argue the point.[/quote]

I am all of the bad parts, for sure.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1002745]I'm not advocating the UN do it, but with religion behind so many of the worlds problems, it seems a logical next step. At some point, they're going to just say "F@ck all you crazy people spewing hate - enough already." I mean, aside from extremists, who really cares anymore anyway. Does ANYONE go to church?[/quote]I agree with you on the ends, in this case. Just not the means. People are born with some rights, whether God exists or not, including choice to worship. That makes banning religion a no-no IMO.

Pretty sure we agree that most churches/mosques/temples/etc do good work, even though RR made a great point about "decent people" of all stripes.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Seems Obama's ventures in the Middles East have not helped any. As a fact the ones we helped the most hate us the most.


[url=http://money.msn.com/investing/5-countries-that-hate-america-most]5 countries that hate America most- MSN Money[/url]

Re: All things Middle East related
 

Yea thats funny.
So many saps voted for him because they thought he was going to make the mid east like us.
What a joke....

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;1002960]Yea thats funny.
So many saps voted for him because they thought he was going to make the mid east like us.
What a joke....[/quote]

To be fair a many of US Presidents have tried to make them like us and it fails every time. We need to pack our bags and get the F out. Let them kill them self from within.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=firstdown;1002973]To be fair a many of US Presidents have tried to make them like us and it fails every time. We need to pack our bags and get the F out. Let them kill them self from within.[/quote]

I agree with that but I cant recall any of them using that as a vote for me platform.

fail......

And.....Gitmo is still open....

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=firstdown;1002973]To be fair a many of US Presidents have tried to make them like us and it fails every time. We need to pack our bags and get the F out. Let them kill them self from within.[/quote]

The evidence is there to suggest that they just want to be left alone to live a 7th Century life.

Except the brave girls/women who are trying to get educated and break free, of course.

Re: All things Middle East related
 

[quote=RedskinRat;1002873]About 100% correct:

[IMG]https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/47630_474401828935_4648430_n.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

Pretty funny, but i take issue with the chart indicating there are no smart or awesome Christians or Muslims or that an Athiest cannot be narrowminded or judgemental. I also thnk "Hypocritical" should have been in large, bold font and underlined for Christians.

I'll give it 80% correct.