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-   -   Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015 (http://www.thewarpath.net/showthread.php?t=62388)

SmootSmack 08-05-2015 02:31 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=over the mountain;1115765]He said that and then some.

[url=http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/08/03/gruden-had-to-convince-snyder-for-several-hours-to-bench-rg3/]Gruden Had to Convince Snyder for ‘Several Hours’ to Bench RG3 « CBS DC[/url]

According to Russell, Gruden had to convince Snyder “for several hours” last fall that benching Griffin was the proper call, suggesting the owner was very much a part of football decision-making.

“He had to, from what I was told, convince by going into Dan Snyder’s office for several hours last year in late November, to convince Dan why he needed to bench Robert, why he needed to take him out, why he was hurting the game,” Russell said.

Around the time Griffin was benched, after Week 12, Russell says is when a rumor surfaced inside Redskins Park that team owner Daniel Snyder had called Gruden’s agent to complain his client was “stealing money.”

-------------------------------

Hopefully the buck begins and ends with Scot. Gruden should have to answer to Scot and Scot alone.[/quote]

All true (well I've only heard the agent part from Chris so I can't confirm that)

As for RG3's quotes. Maybe a bit passive-aggressive. And it's certainly something he needs to work on. The idea of playing within the system. I know it's got to be hard from going to from "changing the position" to "game manager" But those are the cards he and the team have been dealt now

JoeRedskin 08-05-2015 03:47 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=SmootSmack;1115775]... The idea of playing within the system. I know it's got to be hard from going to from "changing the position" to "game manager" But those are the cards he and the team have been dealt now[/quote]

Again, if he can be patient, and show he can manage a game, [I]then[/I] he can start expanding on that.

I guess I thought one of his initial gripes was that he wanted to be thought of as "QB" not a "running QB" and that the style used to create the "changing the position" QB of his rookie year was not to his liking because of that, that it was stunting his growth as a passing QB.

Baby steps. Make the right reads, consistently. Keep the chains moving, consistently. Show you can do the little things that game changing QB's do without thinking, consistently. If you do, there will be plenty of times and places for you to rise above the "ordinary."

I have no doubt he has the talent to do so. I just am concerned that he lacks the maturity, patience, and humility to do so.


So far, however, so very, very good.

artmonkforhallofamein07 08-05-2015 04:13 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
Seems to me that Russel is trying to stir the pot a bit since we have been hearing only positives this time around. We can't have that in DC it must be a circus. Can't let guys just work, let's create some stuff to float around. Why does this story need to come out now? We had all off season to hear that story, no lets wait till guys are trying to work in camp.

JoeRedskin 08-05-2015 04:43 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
^^ hatters gotta hat.

over the mountain 08-05-2015 05:00 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;1115782]Seems to me that Russel is trying to stir the pot a bit since we have been hearing only positives this time around. We can't have that in DC it must be a circus. Can't let guys just work, let's create some stuff to float around. Why does this story need to come out now? We had all off season to hear that story, no lets wait till guys are trying to work in camp.[/quote]

russell worked for the skins or at least their radio station up until a few weeks ago.

timing wise it gives him something to talk about on other radio stations, get paid a little something for appearances until he finds another contract .. smart temp move for him. i have no idea how radio works though.

artmonkforhallofamein07 08-05-2015 06:18 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=over the mountain;1115787]russell worked for the skins or at least their radio station up until a few weeks ago.

timing wise it gives him something to talk about on other radio stations, get paid a little something for appearances until he finds another contract .. smart temp move for him. i have no idea how radio works though.[/quote]

I guess... Keeps him relevant I guess. Hopefully RG III proves all the damn people wrong and goes out plays well and makes plays to help us win. I just want to win and Colt McCoy isn't going to get that done.

NYCskinfan82 08-05-2015 06:30 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;1115782][B]Seems to me that Russel is trying to stir the pot a bit[/B] since we have been hearing only positives this time around. We can't have that in DC it must be a circus. Can't let guys just work, let's create some stuff to float around. Why does this story need to come out now? We had all off season to hear that story, no lets wait till guys are trying to work in camp.[/quote]

Sure sounds like it.

30gut 08-05-2015 07:16 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=Mattyk;1115745][url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/18658/redskins-qb-rg-iii-makes-positive-strides-early-in-camp]Washington Redskins' Robert Griffin III makes positive strides in camp - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url][/quote]Interesting article. Its good to hear Griffin doing well and the staff contributing (Matt C) and the staff being upbeat, both on and off the record. All 3 are welcome changes from last year.

[quote=Keim]There was a cross-your-finger optimism about Griffin entering camp and after five days [B][I][U]the coaches have been pleased about what he’s shown and the direction he’s headed[/U][/I][/B]. [B][I][U][COLOR="DarkRed"]It’s far different than at this time a year ago when whispers started circulating about displeasure with Griffin[/COLOR][/U][/I][/B].[/quote] This shows that the staff is learning from last year. Jay and McVay's frustration with Griffin early in training camp last was a sign to me that trouble lurked. First, I was taken aback that after all the off record talk Shanny was involved in I didn't expect the new regime to be involved with off the record negativity regarding Griffin. Second, I consider being frustrated with developing a young QB par for the course of being a coach thus whining about it off the record to the media imho was a sign of immaturity and a sign of being overwhelmed with the numerous hats of a rookie HC with a rookie OC and no QB coach.

[quote=Keim][B][I][U]the coaches have tweaked what they’re doing[/U][/I][/B], and the presence of quarterbacks coach Matt Cavanaugh already is helping....Having Cavanaugh has helped make the quarterbacks’ reads more defined. In the past, they would keep it basic -- if the primary option isn’t there, they would spout off where they would go next and then next. Do it all in one line. It was a cliffs notes version of what Cavanaugh asked them to do: memorize a graph of each pass play. It took time to adjust in the spring, but it has helped define the reads better. It’s like having an owner’s manual of each play in your head.[/quote]The coaches adapting is great news to hear and I wish it would have happened last year but I'm glad its happening this year. I also love the fact that we not only hired a QB coach but hired one as accomplished as Cavanaugh, who arguably is as accomplished an OC as Jay, a SB winning OC.

The article has lots of good insight that lends towards optimism, especially for someone like me who sees Griffin's success as linked towards Jay's growth as a HC and it appears there are signs pointing in the right direction from a coaching stand point. Now, I know this will make some uncomfortable but hopefully all the rhetoric and changes we've been hearing about the offensive philosophy is true and can help build Jay's level of faith and support for Griffin. Time will tell and even though its only week 1 of training camp...so far so good.

artmonkforhallofamein07 08-05-2015 08:18 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=30gut;1115798]Interesting article. Its good to hear Griffin doing well and the staff contributing (Matt C) and the staff being upbeat, both on and off the record. All 3 are welcome changes from last year.

This shows that the staff is learning from last year. Jay and McVay's frustration with Griffin early in training camp last was a sign to me that trouble lurked. First, I was taken aback that after all the off record talk Shanny was involved in I didn't expect the new regime to be involved with off the record negativity regarding Griffin. Second, I consider being frustrated with developing a young QB par for the course of being a coach thus whining about it off the record to the media imho was a sign of immaturity and a sign of being overwhelmed with the numerous hats of a rookie HC with a rookie OC and no QB coach.

The coaches adapting is great news to hear and I wish it would have happened last year but I'm glad its happening this year. I also love the fact that we not only hired a QB coach but hired one as accomplished as Cavanaugh, who arguably is as accomplished an OC as Jay, a SB winning OC.

The article has lots of good insight that lends towards optimism, especially for someone like me who sees Griffin's success as linked towards Jay's growth as a HC and it appears there are signs pointing in the right direction from a coaching stand point. Now, I know this will make some uncomfortable but hopefully all the rhetoric and changes we've been hearing about the offensive philosophy is true and can help build Jay's level of faith and support for Griffin. Time will tell and even though its only week 1 of training camp...so far so good.[/quote]

What I like about the article is Kiem doesn't usually sugar coat things, if he seeing good things then the coaches are and if nothing else they will know if they want to win they have to go with the best option to do so on the roster. To me RG III is it, we all know what we will get with Cousins and McCoy. Ints with the first and no long ball with the latter.

Establish a running game and get him moving and he should be successful.

NC_Skins 08-05-2015 08:47 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=SmootSmack;1115775]All true (well I've only heard the agent part from Chris so I can't confirm that)[/quote]

Let's go back to this.

[quote=30gut;1115247]That my qualify as a "fact" to you but it doesn't even come close to factual to me and I'm guessing it doesn't for most people.

And again even IF your "fact" were true it should be disconcerting that your new HC clearly was never on board with developing the franchise QB. You think Jay would have been hired if his plan consisted of moving on from Griffin prior to the season even starting? [/quote]

Still think lil Danny isn't making decisions on the field as well?



[quote=30gut;1115247]The fact is football assessment seldom lends itself to simple soundbite analysis. There is rarely 1 "reason" for the success or failure of a play, player, coaching staff or season.

Was Griffin's inexperience in a rhythm drop back passing offense part of his struggles? Sure.

But the playcalling, game plan and coaching also played a role in his struggles. After all Griffin was even less experienced as rookie but was better as a rhythm drop back passer in that system then now. Heck, no QB was less 'prp-style' then Cam and look what he did as a rookie. [/quote]

First off, I never said that his in-experience was the ONLY issue at hand. I said it was a fact that Griffin struggled due to his in-experience with a pro-style offense, not because of Jay's faith in RG. If Robert performed bad because he was worried about Jay's faith in him, it would say a lot about him and he probably shouldn't be in the NFL. No, Robert is arrogant as noted by his attitude and why two coaches have had difficulty trying to get through to him.

Also, to mention Cam's rookie season is laughable. You do realize they ran a read option type offense like we did right? It wasn't a pro-style in the slightest. Also, you've notice Cam's yards and attempts have been dropping steadily the last 3 years with last year being his worst year ever. His transition hasn't turned the corner yet I can assure you.

One last thing, how can you deem play calling an issue? Do you know what defenses were called? Do you know the counter to them? Who's the say the players didn't execute the play while the call was the right one? I'm not saying it didn't play an issue but do you really know for sure or guessing?

30gut 08-05-2015 09:32 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=NC_Skins;1115802]Still think lil Danny isn't making decisions on the field as well?[/quote]Easy kemosabe, lol.

There is a far cry from the OWNER of the team being included in the decision making process to the owner "making decisions on the field". You understand that those aren't the same thing right? Also, remember how this whole exchange started? YOU said that it was a "fact" that Jay wanted to start Cousins at the beginning of the season. I said that did not meet the definition of a fact to most people. Nothing you have said since then changes that speculation into fact. And like I said, even if it were a "fact" then the very notion that a new HC wanted to bench the then potential franchise QB before ever playing him in 1 regular season game is crazy and is something that should be disconcerting to all fans.


[quote=You]First off, I never said that his in-experience was the ONLY issue at hand. I said it was a fact that Griffin struggled due to his in-experience with a pro-style offense, not because of Jay's faith in RG....[/quote]Good we're getting somewhere. We agree that Griffin's inexperience was an issue, just not the only issue.

My point is that inconjunction with Griffin's inexperience Jay's lack of faith played a large role in Griffin's struggles. Jay's lack of faith in Griffin, as you pointed out, was apparent early during Jay's regime even before the start of the regular season. Jay is the HC and playcaller paired up with a rookie OC is at the wheel of the offense. His vision guides the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. How can Jay's lack of faith in Griffin not impact the gameplan, playcalling and coaching as it pertain to Griffin a player that the HC, playcaller and OC lack faith in?

[quote=You]If Robert performed bad because he was worried about Jay's faith in him, it would say a lot about him and he probably shouldn't be in the NFL.[/quote]Clear strawman.

[quote]No, Robert is arrogant as noted by his attitude and why two coaches have had difficulty trying to get through to him.[/quote]Maybe Robert is arrogant maybe he isn't. Personally I think Robert's level of arrogance is unknowable from our vantage point and based on what I've read about Robert I find it very hard to believe that Robert's level of arrogance is an issue. Certainly isn't an issue worth discussion for me.

I'm not going back over the cess pool of scapegoating and blameshifting that happened with Mike Shanahan.

You can chase these rabbits on your own. I've already entertained more of your speculations and perceptions then I intended.


[quote]Also, to mention Cam's rookie season is laughable. You do realize they ran a read option type offense like we did right? It wasn't a pro-style in the slightest.[/quote]You obviously missed my point. My point is that Cam's rookie season was a huge success because they catered the offense to him. Of course it wasn't pro-style, that is my entire point. Cam was far from pro-style but the catered the offense to him and had success.

[quote]One last thing, how can you deem play calling an issue? Do you know what defenses were called? Do you know the counter to them? Who's the say the players didn't execute the play while the call was the right one? I'm not saying it didn't play an issue but do you really know for sure or guessing?[/quote]I know this is pointless but anyhow....I could go in depth about playcalling theory and philosophy but that would be a long discussion since we would be starting from square one. But I'll leave you with this. Every OC in the league can draw up plays that work. Heck they all work on paper. But the heart of coaching is understanding which Xs and Os maximize your personnel. That didn't happen last year. Look at all the changes the rhetoric thus far points to...more commitment to the run game, more play-action, more movement passes, more "tweaks" (as Kiem put it) to cater to Griffin. If those weren't issues last year then why change?

SmootSmack 08-05-2015 09:55 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was

NC_Skins 08-05-2015 10:02 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=30gut;1115806]There is a far cry from the OWNER of the team being included in the decision making process to the owner "making decisions on the field". You understand that those aren't the same thing right?[/quote]

That wasn't meant that Dan is included in game planning or he's up in the box with a headset on or making the starting roster. I merely meant that Snyder meddles with things even as far as who the starting QB should be.

[quote=30gut;1115806]And like I said, even if it were a "fact" then the very notion that a new HC wanted to bench the then potential franchise QB before ever playing him in 1 regular season game is crazy and is something that should be disconcerting to all fans.[/quote]

Personally, I think Jay didn't realize how much work Robert really needed. How can you tell really until you get in there and see for yourself. That and Jay probably said what he needed to in order to land the job. I'm not discounting that fact either. He very well could have pulled a bait and switch on Danny. Especially seeing as how his brother Jon didn't really care for Robert's QB ability. Maybe Dan is right about him stealing money. Seems a lot of people do that to Dan. (except the fans)


[quote=30gut;1115806]Jay is the HC and playcaller paired up with a rookie OC is at the wheel of the offense. His vision guides the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. How can Jay's lack of faith in Griffin not impact the gameplan, playcalling and coaching as it pertain to Griffin a player that the HC, playcaller and OC lack faith in? [/quote]

His faith in Robert would definitely impact the game plan, there is no doubt to that. His lack of faith in Robert shouldn't dictate the play by Robert though. There is a difference. Jay knows that he's not going to be able to run certain things if Griffin doesn't grasp the offense or can go through progressions like he's supposed to. He'll have to cater to what Robert does do good, which is play action and roll outs. However, when you limit your chances of succeeding as well. It also doesn't help when you are forced to play an individual that directly impacts your offense negatively. The object here is to win, not develop Robert. Developing Robert should have begin in years 1 and 2 with him on THE BENCH LIKE I SAID LONG AGO. It still pisses me off to no end they did what they did. Little Danny had to have his shiny new toy though.


[quote=30gut;1115806]I'm not going back over the cess pool of scapegoating and blameshifting that happened with Mike Shanahan. [/quote]

You don't have to, but you should heed the words of a man who's coached the likes of Elway, Montana and Young. I think he was more honest than not the past couple interviews he did.


[quote=30gut;1115806]Look at all the changes the rhetoric thus far points to...more commitment to the run game, more play-action, more movement passes, more "tweaks" (as Kiem put it) to cater to Griffin. If those weren't issues last year then why change?[/quote]

Here is the problem. They tailored an offense around Griffin's abilities and won. However, Griffin didn't want to run that offense. This had been clearly backed up by multiple inside sources (direct and indirect) during that 2012 year. Griffin wanted to be a pocket passer and didn't want to run the offense tailored to him. He saw himself as a Peyton Manning, but never wanted to put in the film room time that Peyton Manning did. He knew the RO wasn't going to keep him around long health wise. Yes I believe Shanny when he said Robert came in there with blessing from the owner on what to run that following off-season. Yes I believe Shanny when he said that he wasn't ready for a conventional offense yet, but had the ability to do it eventually. So this still falls on Robert somewhat for not being coach-able. This is two coaches now that has said the exact same thing. He better get on board fast because the clock is ticking on his career and it's about over. He isn't going to get another forced starting gig in the NFL after this. Can he do it? Certainly. Will he? No idea. I hope for our sakes he does. It'll mean we are most likely winning.

NC_Skins 08-05-2015 10:08 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=SmootSmack;1115808]Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was[/quote]


...and that's the problem in its entirety. A dumbass owner who would fuck up the team's chances of winning just so his new toy could succeed. Yeah..fuck those other 52 guys and winning. I just want to be right on my call to make the RGIII trade! The more and more I see about Dan forcing the Robert issue, the more I believe Shanahan that it was in fact Dan/Bruce that wanted that trade. The problem with people like that is they don't understand that sunk costs are what they are. Sunk.

SmootSmack 08-05-2015 10:15 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
I'm torn about it, because I get the investment made in Griffin and I don't think either Cousins or McCoy could ever reach what Griffin is capable of. On the one hand you let your coaches coach, on the other it's your right (perhaps duty) to step in when you see he's making a clear mistake. Gruden, or someone close to Gruden, seemed to have gotten in his head that he could win sooner with one of the other two. But at what cost? This team wasn't going to the playoffs? Why not put RG3 out there and get him the experience he needed. But Cousins was playing well and it's hard to tell the other guys you're not going to go with the hot hand.

The way Gruden saw it, Cousins could start, McCoy could be ready if/when needed and RG3 could sit and learn. Owner, somewhat understandably, wasn't having it.

artmonkforhallofamein07 08-05-2015 10:42 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=SmootSmack;1115811]I'm torn about it, because I get the investment made in Griffin and I don't think either Cousins or McCoy could ever reach what Griffin is capable of. On the one hand you let your coaches coach, on the other it's your right (perhaps duty) to step in when you see he's making a clear mistake. Gruden, or someone close to Gruden, seemed to have gotten in his head that he could win sooner with one of the other two. But at what cost? This team wasn't going to the playoffs? Why not put RG3 out there and get him the experience he needed. But Cousins was playing well and it's hard to tell the other guys you're not going to go with the hot hand.

The way Gruden saw it, Cousins could start, McCoy could be ready if/when needed and RG3 could sit and learn. Owner, somewhat understandably, wasn't having it.[/quote]

I can understand both sides from last year. But at this point McCoy isn't anything more than he is and Cousins has a major issue that I don't know if he will ever be able to coached out of.

RG III has the upside that we need to start seeing this year or its time to go in a new direction all together. Which would suck ...

30gut 08-05-2015 11:30 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=SmootSmack;1115808]Bruce and especially Dan were really the only key people in the organization who wanted to start RG3 week 1. It was painfully obvious to everyone that RG3 was not ready. That wasn't Jay giving up on him so much as seeing how far he had to go and knowing he has 52 other guys to worry about. Griffin was terrible last summer. There's no getting around that. He just was[/quote]That to me is insane on so many levels. First, what the hell kind of vetting process occured to hire a HC that wasn't on board with developing the franchise's greatest assest a real shot? That is speaks to an insane level of incompetence.

To have an organization split with the coaching staff and the ownership being of 2 separate minds on such an important issue that early into the season is nuts. Its no wonder the season was a debacle. The HC-playcaller-QB dynamic is vital part of team success. If the HC-playcaller doesn't believe in the QB from that early in the season its not going to work. Here's another nugget. The Viking's game came on short week following the monday night game. Smoot correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it rumored that Dan had a role in Griffin playing that week? Now, being a short week, from what I know NFL teams often keep the same gameplan with only minor tweaks because of lack of time. Now the Viking's vs Tampa game is a clear example of how Jay's lack of faith/support impacts the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. Griffin had a good game vs the Vikings. With basically all the cards stacked against him. Coming off an injury, playing in short week of game prep and rumored of being forced into the line-up. Now compare that to the Tampa Bay game. Coming off a bye week, with ample time for a complete gameplan and Griffin not only had the worst game of his career but looked u n p r e p a r e d in the process. That's what happens when a Hc-playcaller doesn't beleive in the player he's gameplanning or calling plays for. Tacitly or unwittingly he's preparing that player to fail because he already doesn't think the player can do it. He's already discarding some plays that might work because he doesn't give the player the benefit of the doubt. I could go on but this post is getting way longer then I intended so I apologize in advance for the wall of text run on nature.

Even without having any insider information and simply from watching the games I knew there was something amiss with Jay-Griffin pairing from a coaching perspective. Starting from the few snaps Griffin took in preseason to Jay's tepid at best comments towards Griffin (even after he played well) compared to his more supportive comments about Kirk/Colt (even after being shut-out against the Rams). I think everyone knew there was something amiss given his comments towards Griffin after the Tampa game.

I think some of us can agree that Jay didn't want Griffin or at least didn't believe in Griffin from early on in their relationship. But, unlike most, I put the majority of the blame for that situation on the coach. Harbaugh drafted Kaepernick to be his guy. But he coached up Alex Smith and got the most out of him even though Smith wasn't his guy. That's coaching. But I digress.
At the end of the season I though why in the hell repeat this mess of forcing a QB on a HC? My thinking was this: if you choose to keep Jay let him choose his QB and move on with his regime as he sees fit. Allow him to sink or swim with his chosen QBs. Get whatever value you can for Griffin and move forward with the organization being on 1 accord, 1 mindset. Don't allow Jay to use Griffin as a shield. To me the irony of last season was that without Jay having Griffin to kick around he would have looked even worse because his chosed QBs didn't get it done. Kirk threw picks that cost games, Colt was ran the offense best he could but was also shut-out (which didn't happen to either Kirk nor Griffin even as poorly as they played) and Colt got injured.

Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?

Lets not forget that Kirk at no point (prior to Jay) performed better then Griffin. Even when the Shanahan's benched Griffin and wanted to prop Kirk he lost all his starts and didn't post better numbers. In fact Cousins stats were terrible pre-Gruden. [url=http://www.csnwashington.com/redskinsblog/numbers-dont-add-kirk-cousins-believers]Numbers don't add up for Kirk Cousins believers | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]
[U]"Of all the signal callers with at least 150 pass attempts in 2013, Cousins ranked dead last in Passer Rating at 58.4. Behind Cousins came the Jets' Geno Smith at 66.5 and the Raiders' Terrelle Pryor at 69.1. Griffin came in at 82.2, not impressive, yet still significantly better than Cousins."[/U]

I completely disagree with the narrative that Jay was giving up on Griffin for the sake of the other 52. To me that's BS. COACH! That's what he's here to do, he's not a bystander he's the director, the chef, he's in charge of the operation he's responsible for the product. If Jay underestimated the task that's no one's fault but his own and maybe Bruce depending on who had the final say on building a staff without a QB coach and pairing a rookie HC with a rookie OC.

Everyone seems to accept the notion Jay was ready to give up Griffin heading into week 1 without really ever questioning whether it was right for a brand new HC to give up on the potential franchise QB without ever seeing a regular season snap. C'mon. That's crazy.

Either way I'm glad to hear of a seeming paradigm shift in both rhetoric and philosophy. But (1) it doesn't erase Jay's lack of belief last year and at the end of the day Jay is still the HC and playcaller (2) real games have yet to be played.

I have never wanted to be more dead wrong about anything Redskins related.
But, Jay's lack of belief in Griffin imho doom Griffin as player here.

KI Skins Fan 08-05-2015 11:56 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
:bdh:

30gut 08-05-2015 11:58 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=NC_Skins;1115809]His faith in Robert would definitely impact the game plan, there is no doubt to that. His lack of faith in Robert shouldn't dictate the play by Robert though.[/quote]It might not "dictate" but it certainly impacts the result.

As an instructor and former youth coach I can tell you without a doubt that belief or lack of thereof in a player or student can become a self fulfilling prophesy. And clearly there are things that Jay didn't do last year that had negtive impact on Griffin's performance. We've been over some of them and many of them are things the staff and media have already made talking points about how they're gonna change this year. The same concepts and philosophy that could have been used to develop Griffin are many of the same concepts that are part of winning formula. Run the ball, which we didn't do enough. Use more play-action, which we didn't do enough. Move the pocket, which we didn't do enough. Throw mix in more screen game, which we didn't do enough. The problem is those concepts aren't how Jay called his offense last year and don't neccesarily fit his vision of his offense. Maybe he's changed. Time will tell. But to say that Jay's faith in Griffin would definitely impact the gameplan then by extention it impacts the result.






[quote]Here is the problem. They tailored an offense around Griffin's abilities and won. However, Griffin didn't want to run that offense. This had been clearly backed up by multiple inside sources (direct and indirect) during that 2012 year. Griffin wanted to be a pocket passer and didn't want to run the offense tailored to him. He saw himself as a Peyton Manning, but never wanted to put in the film room time that Peyton Manning did. He knew the RO wasn't going to keep him around long health wise. Yes I believe Shanny when he said Robert came in there with blessing from the owner on what to run that following off-season. [/quote]Here we go with this slanted narrative. Beginning of 2013 fresh off recovering from a shredded knee would you want to be running read-option to start the season? Is that so crazy that a kid, and he is a kid, would be wary even nervous about it? And guess what? Coaches are paid the big dollars to handle situations like that. Everyone acts like the resulting outcome had to be bad following whatever Griffin said about not wanting to run read option to start the season after recovering from a torn MCL/LCL whatever. It could have been something as simple as "..hey kid I understand. You tore up your knee and you're nervous maybe even scared about...blah..blah soothing father figure arm on the shoulder we're in this together moment". Then deal with the owner later. Whatever. Shanny handled it poorly and he's done and rightfully so.

Also to put facts on the table Griffin DID IN FACT RUN READ OPTION AS EARLY AS WEEK 4 of the 2013 season. Yet for some reason the tiny little fact that Griffin actually ran read-option that year gets over looked. Your boy, Shanny even said that Griffin came to him and said ~coach I'm ready to run it now.

[quote]Yes I believe Shanny when he said that he wasn't ready for a conventional offense yet, but had the ability to do it eventually. So this still falls on Robert somewhat for not being coach-able. This is two coaches now that has said the exact same thing.[/quote]Huh? Back to double talking Shanny. Yes he did say Griffin's transtion would take time so we hired a HC that didn't hire a QB coach and decided he was ready to give up on the transition process before the regular season starts. And that's Griffin's fault for being uncoachable?

Its been an interesting look into how the otherside thinks. But at this point, i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

artmonkforhallofamein07 08-06-2015 12:01 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
I agree with you 30 gut and I hope that we don't ruin RG III here because of a stupid hire of a HC.

SmootSmack 08-06-2015 12:32 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=30gut;1115813]That to me is insane on so many levels. First, what the hell kind of vetting process occured to hire a HC that wasn't on board with developing the franchise's greatest assest a real shot? That is speaks to an insane level of incompetence.[/quote]

Well there wasn't much of a vetting process in my opinion. I think I told you guys in October/November 2013 that Jay was going to be the guy

[quote]To have an organization split with the coaching staff and the ownership being of 2 separate minds on such an important issue that early into the season is nuts. Its no wonder the season was a debacle. The HC-playcaller-QB dynamic is vital part of team success. If the HC-playcaller doesn't believe in the QB from that early in the season its not going to work.[/quote]

That said Jay was genuinely excited and prepared to work with RG3. And yeah maybe he panicked but RG3 was awful, just awful, in every way last summer.

[quote] Here's another nugget. The Viking's game came on short week following the monday night game. Smoot correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it rumored that Dan had a role in Griffin playing that week? Now, being a short week, from what I know NFL teams often keep the same gameplan with only minor tweaks because of lack of time. Now the Viking's vs Tampa game is a clear example of how Jay's lack of faith/support impacts the gameplan, playcalling and coaching. Griffin had a good game vs the Vikings. With basically all the cards stacked against him. Coming off an injury, playing in short week of game prep and rumored of being forced into the line-up. Now compare that to the Tampa Bay game. Coming off a bye week, with ample time for a complete gameplan and Griffin not only had the worst game of his career but looked u n p r e p a r e d in the process. That's what happens when a Hc-playcaller doesn't beleive in the player he's gameplanning or calling plays for. Tacitly or unwittingly he's preparing that player to fail because he already doesn't think the player can do it. He's already discarding some plays that might work because he doesn't give the player the benefit of the doubt. I could go on but this post is getting way longer then I intended so I apologize in advance for the wall of text run on nature.[/quote]

Yes, it was Snyder's call. Fair to say you don't see reason to put any of the responsibility on Griffin?

[quote]Even without having any insider information and simply from watching the games I knew there was something amiss with Jay-Griffin pairing from a coaching perspective. Starting from the few snaps Griffin took in preseason to Jay's tepid at best comments towards Griffin (even after he played well) compared to his more supportive comments about Kirk/Colt (even after being shut-out against the Rams). I think everyone knew there was something amiss given his comments towards Griffin after the Tampa game.

I think some of us can agree that Jay didn't want Griffin or at least didn't believe in Griffin from early on in their relationship. But, unlike most, I put the majority of the blame for that situation on the coach. Harbaugh drafted Kaepernick to be his guy. But he coached up Alex Smith and got the most out of him even though Smith wasn't his guy. That's coaching. But I digress.
At the end of the season I though why in the hell repeat this mess of forcing a QB on a HC? My thinking was this: if you choose to keep Jay let him choose his QB and move on with his regime as he sees fit. Allow him to sink or swim with his chosen QBs. Get whatever value you can for Griffin and move forward with the organization being on 1 accord, 1 mindset. Don't allow Jay to use Griffin as a shield. To me the irony of last season was that without Jay having Griffin to kick around he would have looked even worse because his chosed QBs didn't get it done. Kirk threw picks that cost games, Colt was ran the offense best he could but was also shut-out (which didn't happen to either Kirk nor Griffin even as poorly as they played) and Colt got injured.

Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?[/quote]

Keim said this about last year? He and I were just talking about this the other day, not what I heard from him. What do you mean by the last line?

[quote]Lets not forget that Kirk at no point (prior to Jay) performed better then Griffin. Even when the Shanahan's benched Griffin and wanted to prop Kirk he lost all his starts and didn't post better numbers. In fact Cousins stats were terrible pre-Gruden. [url=http://www.csnwashington.com/redskinsblog/numbers-dont-add-kirk-cousins-believers]Numbers don't add up for Kirk Cousins believers | Comcast SportsNet Washington[/url]
[U]"Of all the signal callers with at least 150 pass attempts in 2013, Cousins ranked dead last in Passer Rating at 58.4. Behind Cousins came the Jets' Geno Smith at 66.5 and the Raiders' Terrelle Pryor at 69.1. Griffin came in at 82.2, not impressive, yet still significantly better than Cousins."[/U][/quote]

I'm not a Kirk fan. I've always said he's a Gus Frerotte type. Long career, spot starter


[quote]I completely disagree with the narrative that Jay was giving up on Griffin for the sake of the other 52. To me that's BS. COACH! That's what he's here to do, he's not a bystander he's the director, the chef, he's in charge of the operation he's responsible for the product. If Jay underestimated the task that's no one's fault but his own and maybe Bruce depending on who had the final say on building a staff without a QB coach and pairing a rookie HC with a rookie OC.

Everyone seems to accept the notion Jay was ready to give up Griffin heading into week 1 without really ever questioning whether it was right for a brand new HC to give up on the potential franchise QB without ever seeing a regular season snap. C'mon. That's crazy.[/quote]

I don't know what your point is here.

[quote]Either way I'm glad to hear of a seeming paradigm shift in both rhetoric and philosophy. But (1) it doesn't erase Jay's lack of belief last year and at the end of the day Jay is still the HC and playcaller (2) real games have yet to be played.

I have never wanted to be more dead wrong about anything Redskins related.
But, Jay's lack of belief in Griffin imho doom Griffin as player here.[/quote]

I think Griffin is done here

JoeRedskin 08-06-2015 05:28 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=30gut;1115813]Also, I remember, even recently, John Keim saying that Griffin was the best looking QB in camp last year and that Kirk nor Colt blew him away last year. Outside of Theisman very few sports media were saying that Kirk was challenging for the starting spot. But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?[/quote]

Absolutely no one was saying RGIII was the best performing QB in TC last year. Find me one source that gave that opinion. Here are a few that make it clear he was not:

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/jay-gruden-culdnt-admit-that-kirk-cousins-was-better-running-his-offense-than-rgiii/2014/09/14/c842791e-3c63-11e4-b0ea-8141703bbf6f_story.html]Jay Gruden couldn’t admit that Kirk Cousins was better running his offense than RGIII - The Washington Post[/url]

[quote]Let’s not sugarcoat the past two months: Gruden was having a hard time getting Griffin to grasp the principles of the drop-back passing system he was teaching. If Cousins and Griffin had come to camp as undrafted rookies, Cousins may have opened the season as the starter.[/quote]

[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24655445/what-happens-if-kirk-cousins-is-better-qb-than-robert-griffin-iii]What happens if Kirk Cousins is a better QB than Robert Griffin III? - CBSSports.com[/url]

[quote]Last week, the Redskins and Patriots practiced together before facing off in Thursday's preseason game. Tom Brady didn't play in the game but he didn't need to; he's a future Hall of Famer -- you know what you're getting. Griffin, meanwhile, is a different story.

It might explain all the post-joint-practice media reports comparing Brady to RG3. [B]The general sense of those reports: "Brady is masterful, Griffin is raw."[/B] That's like comparing a 13-month-old just learning to walk to Usain Bolt. Yes, they're both bipeds, but one is slightly more experienced than the other. [/quote]

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4765960/quick-hit-thoughts-around-nfl-patriots-19]Quick-hit thoughts around NFL and New England Patriots - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN[/url]

[quote]One of my biggest takeaways from Patriots-Redskins joint practices was surprise that [B]Robert Griffin III didn’t look like the best quarterback on his own team.[/B] In fact, I thought Kirk Cousins was better than him, from the perspective of running the offense, fine-tuned mechanics and how decisively the ball came out of his hand. [b]I wondered if I was alone, and then heard the same sentiment echoed by some others in the Patriots organization. [/b][/quote]

Looked for something by Keim but couldn’t find it.

JoeRedskin 08-06-2015 05:35 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=SmootSmack;1115817]That said Jay was genuinely excited and prepared to work with RG3. And yeah [B]maybe he panicked but RG3 was awful, just awful, in every way last summer[/B].[/quote]

That was my recollection. The narrative "JG never liked RGIII" strikes me as just wrong. Initially, Gruden was saying all the right things about RGIII. That is until he saw him actually play:

[url=http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000356210/article/robert-griffin-iii-and-jay-gruden-inside-a-budding-relationship]Robert Griffin III and Jay Gruden: Inside a budding relationship - NFL.com[/url]

[quote]And yet, what has struck Gruden the most thus far is ...

"How smart [RGIII] is," Gruden said, in a private moment after Wednesday's OTA practice. "He picked up everything effortlessly. He works hard at it, he studies it, he understands the position, and he's willing to learn and willing to take coaching. A guy with as much success as he's had, as early as he is in this young stage of his life, some guys are like, 'Eh, I don't need your coaching, I don't need this, I wanna do it my way.' He's not that way at all. He wants to be coached, he wants to learn the game, he wants to study.

"He wants to be the greatest. And he knows he has a long way to go, which is refreshing from a guy that's had a Heisman Trophy and as much publicity as he's had. He knows he has work to do, and he's willing to put in the work. That's strikes me as ... I just wasn't expecting that."

... "I'm not gonna be the type of guy that's like, 'Hey, don't ever scramble. Stay in the pocket. I want you to be like Tom Brady,' " Gruden said. "Part of the thing that draws you to a guy like that is that he's not like everyone else. He's a special player playing the position like nobody else has played it. So we have to use his strengths, also. Maybe sometimes, he makes a poor decision or takes a hard hit that, hopefully, he gets up from. In the meantime, part of my job is to reduce the risk."[/quote]

(The article is filled with great quotes. Good read to see where JG/RGIII were a year ago prior to TC). JG came in thinking he had a shiny new toy to play with at QB and found out he had a raw player incapable of executing basic drop back fundamentals ("umm ... how many steps do I take in a 3-step drop coach?"). I am sure it was like coming down Christmas morning and thinking you're getting a pony but finding out all you got was horse sh**.


[quote=SmootSmack;1115817]I think Griffin is done here[/quote]

That makes me sad. Opinion or what you are hearing, or a little of both? Why? Is there anything you see happening that could change that?

I hope that he is not. I hope he shows enough to change JG's mind. I hope JG tweaks the offense to play to some of the things that are better suited to RGIII's skill set. I hope that the relationship between RGIII and JG can be repaired.

<sigh> ... but, it's the Skins so I will remind myself that hope is a foolish, foolish waste with this team.

JoeRedskin 08-06-2015 05:49 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
and then there was this from the END of last year:

[quote=JoeRedskin;1102121]So, on the RGIII / Gruden front: [url=http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2312720-insider-buzz-skins-practice-incident-continues-to-prove-rg3-is-uncoachable]Insider Buzz: 'Skins Practice Incident Continues to Prove RG3 Is 'Uncoachable' | Bleacher Report[/url]

If true, it is really disheartening. The crux of it is this: In practice last week, during 7 on 7 drills, the O is in shotgun formation with 3 WR's split right and 2 WR's split left. Before the play, Gruden comes out and talks to RGIII telling him to throw right as that is where his play will be 95% of the time. Apparently, when the play is then run, Griffin throws [I]left[/I] to the 2 WR side [I]and[/I] makes the wrong read leading to an interception in practice.

Like I said, if true, that is really bad. The coach tells you where to throw, you ignore him, and make a bad play doing it you're way. If I'm Gruden, I just don't know what to say to that - other than a stream of expletives.[/quote]

SmootSmack 08-06-2015 07:19 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
I believe Keim said RG3 had good and bad moments last summer

Alvin Walton 08-06-2015 07:48 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
Dear Robert,

We invested a feck ton of stuff for you.
You better kick ass this season or the fans will crucify you. Myself included.

Your Pal,

Alvin

30gut 08-06-2015 05:23 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/9760/thoughts-on-redskins-qb-rg-iii]Thoughts on Washington Redskins QB Robert Griffin III - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

[quote=John Keim]Yes, Kirk Cousins looked pretty solid against the Patriots in their two days of practices last week. I don't think the Redskins' coaches would disagree that he might have looked better than Griffin as well. [U]But even the Redskins' coaches would point out: Cousins was not throwing against Darrelle Revis or Brandon Browner and wasn't facing the Patriots' top pass-rushers[/U]. So they took what they saw within context.[B][U][I][SIZE="5"][COLOR="SeaGreen"] But Cousins has not had a better camp.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I][/U][/B][/quote]

[quote=Keim]Cousins has looked sharp at times this camp; other times he has made some bad throws. He, too, is a growing, young quarterback. He was decisive in the game against New England; he also nearly threw an interception on his first pass to a double-covered Aldrick Robinson. [B][I][U]If one quarterback was lighting it up all the time and the other was not, it would be noted.[/U][/I][/B] That hasn't been the case. Both Cousins and Griffin have had good and bad moments while they learn. Griffin needs to mature as a passer, but he also needs to have the time to do so. He's not exactly a rookie again, but in some ways he's starting over -- albeit with two years of starting experience. If Griffin were further along in his career, I'd say there'd be more concern about his game. But this is the first camp where he's worked mostly from the pocket. For now, he's receiving an education. Some days there's progress and others there's hair-pulling.[/quote]

30gut 08-06-2015 05:53 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[QUOTE=SmootSmack;1115817]Well there wasn't much of a vetting process in my opinion. I think I told you guys in October/November 2013 that Jay was going to be the guy[/quote]Yeah, it appears there wasn't much of vetting process when you end up with a HC almost instantly at logger heads with the potential franchise QB. The HC's plan for developing Griffin should have been a critical part of the vetting process.

Now, that we have Jay we need to support him and imho supporting him doesn't consist of forcing a QB on him that he doesn't want. Which is why I'm surprised they didn't draft a developmental QB somewhere.

[QUOTE]That said Jay was genuinely excited and prepared to work with RG3. And yeah maybe he panicked but RG3 was awful, just awful, in every way last summer. [/QUOTE]Excited I can agree with prepared? We're not going to agree there. The results would indicate a lack of preparation. And when you begin without a QB coach, and try to groom a rookie OC, adopting an impetuous stance toward Griffin early in the 'development process' as opposed to patient stance all speak to lack of preparation in my mind.

Also, we certainly disagree about Griffin's level of play compared to the other QBs last summer.

[QUOTE]Yes, it was Snyder's call. Fair to say you don't see reason to put any of the responsibility on Griffin?[/QUOTE]Not fair at all because I've already stated that Griffin failures and struggles are facts. I am not disputing he struggled. I'm looking beyond that and trying to understand the 'why'.

Is it likewise fair to say you don't put any of the responsibility for the disparity between Griffin's performance in the Vikings game (on a short week, likely using a gameplan designed for McCoy) vs the Tampa game (coming after a bye week where the staff had ample time to develop a 'Griffin' gameplan) on the coaching staff?

[QUOTE]Keim said this about last year? He and I were just talking about this the other day, not what I heard from him. [/QUOTE]I posted the article I referred to, Keim also said the same in several espn980 radio spots and often meet with challenge and surprise especially from Sheehan.

[QUOTE]What do you mean by the last line? edit:[QUOTE=Me from before]But even assuming that Kirk and Colt looked better isn't that in itself cause for concern?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Lol, I don't even know anymore. I was rambling so much. Give me a second to find it.

Oh, I meant that for Kirk and Colt to look better then Griffin means the offense isn't being catered towards Griffin and that in and of itself speaks to Jay's lack of belief. That indicates to me that Jay is putting his system over Griffin. The only way they look better then Kirk/Colt is in a straight drop back rhythm west coast offense. So running an offense that doesn't fit the player your ostensibly trying to develop would be a cause for concern for me. Thankfully it appears the offense is being tailored to fit Griffin more then before and not surprising the consequent is Griffin (thus far) has looked better then Kirk/Colt.

[QUOTE]I'm not a Kirk fan. I've always said he's a Gus Frerotte type. Long career, spot starter[/QUOTE]I actually have nothing against Kirk/Colt. They are system QBs and Jay is a system HC. I think Jay likewise had a quick trigger on Kirk. But then again even if he wanted its likely that the ownership wouldn't look fondly on re-inserting Kirk over Griffin after Kirk's struggles. But to be clear I think Kirk can put up good numbers in Jay's offense. Whether or not that leads to wins depends on Jay's improvement as HC/playcaller and Kirk's cutting down on turnovers.

[QUOTE]I don't know what your point is here.[/QUOTE]Gotta look at it again myself.
edit: Oh, my point was that Jay as the HC is accountable for the performance of the team, including the QBs. Jay being done with Griffin early in training camp Griffin or wanting to start Cousins isn't what a coach does...to me its the opposite of coaching. A HC doesn't get to stop doing his job of player development because they become frustrated.

[quote]I think Griffin is done here[/QUOTE]I tend to agree. At the end of the season I was 100% certain it was over. I figure you either choose the HC or the QB. And it made sense to me to keep the HC, that is why I wanted them to trade Griffin for whatever they could get. For me I can't get passed the forced marriage between a HC and a QB he doesn't believe in. BUT [B][U][SIZE="7"]IF[/SIZE][/U][/B] the major offseason talking point/narrative is genuine and there actually has been a paradigm shift in sentiment and philosophy then Griffin has a chance. But, I'm not a crazy person either I recognize that its a big 'if' and the odds are long.

Evilgrin 08-07-2015 03:04 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
I don't think Gruden likes any of his QBs as a starter. He likes Colt for his knowledge, but knows he can't play as a starter in the NFL. He definately doesn't like Cousins.

30gut 08-12-2015 03:21 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[B][COLOR="DarkGreen"]Interesting comments I heard from the weekend training camp from ESPN that were lost in the scuffle...[/COLOR][/B]

[B]Louis Riddick:[/B] On the relationship between Jay and Griff

"Its the most important relationship in the building between your starting QB and whoever it is that is directly responsible for his performance on the field, in this case which is a combination of the HC...and the playcaller.

These 2 have to be on the same page not just as far as what it will take for RGIII to succeed on the football field but they really have to be trusting one another. RGIII has to believe that Jay has his best interest in mind; that when he's not in his presence he [Jay] is still backing him he still building him up saying 'this is my guy' and not sitting there saying 'man I hope I can get that other QB in there because I don't really trust this guy..."

[B]John Keim:[/B] On Jay and Griffin relationship

"A more relaxed relationship then last year...But one thing that you do know is Gruden didn't have a lot of belief in Griffin and I think Griffin felt that. And that was one of the things I talked to people around the league about "How important is [belief from the HC/playcaller to the QB]that?" I think its very important"

[U] [/U]

Either way it good to see an ostensible shift in "belief" from last year.
If its genuine then I can see Griffin having a bounce back season, if its not then it will be what I suspect...

KI Skins Fan 08-12-2015 05:28 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. If RGIII goes out and stinks up the joint, why should Jay Gruden have any confidence in him? IMO, Griffin first has to show significant improvement in games.

You can quote all the football analysts in the world on this point and I'll just tell you that I think they're wrong. There are lots of successful people who believed in themselves when nobody else believed in them.

I don't think that RGIII expects Jay to believe in him before he has shown Jay how much he has improved. I also think it's ridiculous of the analysts you quoted to even vaguely suggest that RGIII needs his HC to believe in him before he has earned that trust.

Nope, don't try to put the responsibility for RGIII's success or failure on Jay. It seems to me that Jay is doing everything he can to help RGIII be successful. RGIII's actual on the field performance will determine his future and, when he is on the field, it is in RGIII's hands alone.

Skinzman 08-12-2015 05:48 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=KI Skins Fan;1116184]I think you're putting the cart before the horse. If RGIII goes out and stinks up the joint, why should Jay Gruden have any confidence in him? IMO, Griffin first has to show significant improvement in games.

You can quote all the football analysts in the world on this point and I'll just tell you that I think they're wrong. There are lots of successful people who believed in themselves when nobody else believed in them.

I don't think that RGIII expects Jay to believe in him before he has shown Jay how much he has improved. I also think it's ridiculous of the analysts you quoted to even vaguely suggest that RGIII needs his HC to believe in him before he has earned that trust.

Nope, don't try to put the responsibility for RGIII's success or failure on Jay. It seems to me that Jay is doing everything he can to help RGIII be successful. RGIII's actual on the field performance will determine his future and, when he is on the field, it is in RGIII's hands alone.[/quote]

If thats the case, then developing players would never happen. It is the job of the coaches to build up players and put them in positions to succeed. If that player still fails, then move on. What you are describing is a scenario where coaches dont matter. Where we can describe Jim Zorn and Joe Gibbs as equals, since its up to the players to succeed despite their coach. Im willing to go out on a limb and say that a lot of players succeeded because of Joe Gibbs. Not because Joe Gibbs wrote them off and they succeeded anyways.

Why should Jay have confidence in RG3?... Because he is the HC and no other reason. If a coach says to himself that Im going to let the players fail because its not my job to help them succeed, then he shouldnt be a coach.

JoeRedskin 08-12-2015 06:36 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
It's some of both.

Players have to be able to demonstrate the ability to learn and accept coaching. At times last year, it was clear RGIII just was not doing what the coaches wanted him to do. There are at least two examples that come to mind (the play in practice from my earlier post, the TD at the end of the half in the Rams game that was called back) where RGIII just outright ignored things he was specifically told to do by JG. Then there's the whole "taking 5 step drops when he should be taking 7 steps" thing. If I'm Gruden and the QB is just flat out ignoring me or unable to perform basic, fundamental QB skills, damn right I have a trust issue. Hard to believe in a guy who seems unable and/or unwilling to do the tasks you ask him to do. Especially when his f-ups could cost you your job.

On the other hand, if a coach insists on shoving a round peg into square hole, the he is going to be doomed and the peg is going to be ruined. JG needs to coach RGIII as he is, not how Gruden believes a QB [I]should[/I] be. Gibbs completely revamped his offensive thinking to take advantage of a big OL and John Riggins. Gruden probably can't and shouldn't rewrite his playbook to tailor it to RGIII - otherwise its the R/O all over again. For RGIII to succeed, he needs to develop in the pocket, but Gruden needs to find a way to help him with that transition and take advantage of his unique skills.

It's both of them. In the short term, RGIII needs to step up and make "the ordinary" plays routinely. In the long term, Gruden needs to give him room to do that and to be flexible enough to maximize the skills of all his players.

KI Skins Fan 08-12-2015 06:39 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=Skinzman;1116185]If thats the case, then developing players would never happen. It is the job of the coaches to build up players and put them in positions to succeed. If that player still fails, then move on. What you are describing is a scenario where coaches dont matter. Where we can describe Jim Zorn and Joe Gibbs as equals, since its up to the players to succeed despite their coach. Im willing to go out on a limb and say that a lot of players succeeded because of Joe Gibbs. Not because Joe Gibbs wrote them off and they succeeded anyways.

Why should Jay have confidence in RG3?... Because he is the HC and no other reason. [B]If a coach says to himself that Im going to let the players fail because its not my job to help them succeed, then he shouldnt be a coach.[/B][/quote]

I wrote this in my post: "It seems to me that Jay is doing everything he can to help RGIII be successful." Did you miss that part?

This discussion isn't about developing a player. The player is being well-coached. This is about the supposed need for the HC to "believe" in a player who has been the starting QB for three seasons and has not performed well for the last two seasons. I say at this point it's up to that player to show the HC something he can believe in - that is, some on the field results of the coaching he's received. Then, perhaps the coach can start to believe in him. That is, if the coach doesn't already believe in the player which is something only the coach can truly know.

KI Skins Fan 08-12-2015 06:49 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=JoeRedskin;1116189]In the short term, RGIII needs to step up and make "the ordinary" plays routinely. In the long term, Gruden needs to give him room to do that and to be flexible enough to maximize the skills of all his players.[/quote]

I couldn't agree with you more. I don't understand the complaint that JG doesn't call the same plays for RGIII that he does for the other two QB's. First, let's see RGIII execute the plays that are called, whatever they may be.

Skinzman 08-12-2015 07:33 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=KI Skins Fan;1116190]I wrote this in my post: "It seems to me that Jay is doing everything he can to help RGIII be successful." Did you miss that part?

This discussion isn't about developing a player. The player is being well-coached. This is about the supposed need for the HC to "believe" in a player who has been the starting QB for three seasons and has not performed well for the last two seasons. I say at this point it's up to that player to show the HC something he can believe in - that is, some on the field results of the coaching he's received. Then, perhaps the coach can start to believe in him. That is, if the coach doesn't already believe in the player which is something only the coach can truly know.[/quote]

He is being well coached... now. And he is showing improvement. Enough improvement to keep him around in the future? That will only be shown during the real games. But to say Jay did everything to help him when he didnt even hire a QB coach in year one is laughable. I personally think Cavanaugh is having the biggest impression on RG3, not Jay. I think not having a QB coach has affected both RG3 and KC, since KC, in year 4, seems to be the same player he was as a senior in college.

And I still say its not up to the players to show the coach anything before the coach tries. The coach should be trying regardless. If it doesnt work out, move on, but the coach has to try regardless otherwise he is a failure of a coach. Some players will never get it, but the coach has to put in the time anyways. Why? Because they are getting paid millions per year to do just that.

I am expecting Jay (or any coach for that matter) to try to put the players in the best possible scenario to succeed. Again... If the player still fails, move on, but try first. Its his job to do that regardless.

30gut 08-12-2015 08:03 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
Gotta keep it short b/c its movie night with the kids

[QUOTE=KI Skins Fan;1116184]I think you're putting the cart before the horse.[/quote]I guess this is meant for me? It's impossible to put the cart before the horse when it comes to believing in your players. Belief is the first step, because at some point all your players will be new to you.

Also, you support you players when they struggle. If a coach is going to get frustrated and impatient when players struggle then they might be in the wrong business because players are going to struggle. Adversity is par for the course.

Did you catch the Hardknocks? Bill O'brien's opening speech to his coaches represents how I think a HC needs to think: [QUOTE=O'Brien]~Every player that is out there all 90 of them that are out there are players that I want for the 2015 season. When you guys [coaches] effing show up to practice tomorrow they [the players] better be ready to effing go.
[/QUOTE]

Sure sounds like believes in his players and holds his coaches accountable.

[quote]Nope, don't try to put the responsibility for RGIII's success or failure on Jay. It seems to me that Jay is doing everything he can to help RGIII be successful. RGIII's actual on the field performance will determine his future and, when he is on the field, it is in RGIII's hands alone.[/QUOTE]Of course the HC and coaches in general are responsible for the performance of their players (especially players that have already achieved at a high level). If you really want to make the argument that they're not then we shouldn't have a discussion because it means to me that you don't believe or respect in the value of coaching.
Griffin's success or failure is without a doubt linked to Jay's ability as a coach and that is true for any coach and player across the league.

Also, you might not have noticed but there are huge changes being made for the team and for the offense. If everything last year was right from a coaching standpoint then why such drastic changes?

DYoungJelly 08-12-2015 10:28 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
[quote=30gut;1116204]Gotta keep it short b/c its movie night with the kids[/quote]

Thank you.

SirLK26 08-12-2015 11:27 PM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
^I'm pretty sure 30gut is this guy.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3Gr2gLY.jpg[/IMG]

J/k, I enjoy his posts.

JoeRedskin 08-15-2015 11:13 AM

Re: Robert Griffin III ready to turn career around with Redskins in 2015
 
Interesting take by Keim in response to "What would it take to make Kirk the starter":

[quote][B] I think they're trying really hard to see if it can work with Robert Griffin III. They've clearly done all they can in the offseason to restore confidence (he says he never lost any) and make him comfortable. [/B]I was a big believer in having an open competition, but also know that would have led to the circus returning to town. Kirk Cousins looked sharp Thursday, albeit vs. backups. Griffin had ups and downs vs. the starters; loved the bootleg and his ability to throw deep off play-action. But I liked the way Cousins handled the pocket most of the time. I'll be curious to see what happens if Cousins clearly outplays Griffin in the preseason -- and then Griffin struggles early in the regular season. If they don't make a move after, say, a couple games then you have to wonder what else is at play. The problem for Cousins remains: interceptions. They'll have to build up that trust that he'll improve in that area. And they'll have to convince others in the organization it would be a good move.[/quote]

[url=http://espn.go.com/blog/washington-redskins/post/_/id/18957/redskins-mailbag-what-it-would-take-to-start-kirk-cousins]Washington Redskins mailbag: What it would take to start Kirk Cousins - Washington Redskins Blog - ESPN[/url]

Watching them play, and watching the plays called, it is clear that a different game is being called when KC is QB. It is also obvious (to me) that he is much more decisive than RGIII, that the drop is right, and that the ball comes out on time. Which is great, except he often, very decisively, throws an interception, and then another, and another, and so on.

RGIII, on the other hand, has the better arm and accuracy (generally), but if the first read isn't there (and sometimes when it is), he just isn't decisive. Even with the better arm, the ball just doesn't come out on time or as fast as it does with Kirk. This was again evident on a couple of throws Thursday.

It's so tough, I like both of them a lot and, if we could just melt them down into one guy, we could have something. Of course, if we could, and with our luck, we would get an indecisive QB, with no pocket presence or accuracy and who through a pick every other pass attempt.


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