Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

Also i have heard the argument that donovan's accomplishments as far as consecutive NFC championship appearances and others, don't matter anymore b/c in the NFL people have a very short term memory. Also people say that Philly is very passionate about their football and that is why they are impatient with donovan. What about Brett Favre? As I recall he went to two superbowls and won 1 (10+ years ago) and people in GB act like he was elected to a position for life. Brett rode the coattails of his defense and RB just as much as Donovan did, if not more and he competed in the abysmal NFC North (then the NFC central with guaranteed wins against the horrible Lions, Bears, and Bucs). GB is every bit as passionate about their football as Philly and if anything has more at stake about the teams success (since each taxpayer owns a portion of the team). Why didn't the media and the fans in GB call for Brett's hide when he threw 4 picks in that playoff game including an unnecessary hail mary with ample time on the clock? I think its partially due to the fact that Brett had the good ol' boy all american look going for him.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=Paintrain;354628]I think McNabb is 100% right in what he says. Black QB have to be great, not good to keep a job in the NFL.. History in the past 10 years reinforces that. For example, how many black backups are out there? Proven losers or relative no names like Doug Johnson, Kerry Collins, Sage Rosenfels, Trent Edwards, etc. and washed up QB like Vinny Testaverde & Brad Johnson are collecting checks.. Doug Flutie got a 20 year career out of being a novelty act.

It took Byron Leftwich, a career 59% passer with a nearly 2-1 career TD/INT ratio nearly a month to get a contract after he was released. Aaron Brooks, nowhere near a great QB, really not even good but more accomplished than any of the aforementioned white QB (except Brad Johnson) is still out of the NFL. History is littered with good/decent black QB who never got another shot or didn't get the opportunity to hang on as a backup for 10+ years.. For every Anthony Wright, there are 3 Shaun Kings.

There are more black starting QB than there were years ago no doubt, but is Aaron Brooks any worse than 50% of the backups in the league today? That’s where McNabb’s point is being missed by the masses.. Black QB don’t get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to teams taking a chance on them, even as a backup… If Dennis Green took a chance on Randall Cunningham who was out of the league because nobody would bring him into even a training camp, he went on to win 15 games and be within a missed FG of going to the Super Bowl.. Those are the examples McNabb is talking about. JP Losman is in his 4th year of accomplishing nothing in Buffalo and yet there is minmal question or outcry for his job. Steve McNair was a MVP runner up, perennial pro bow QB, Super Bowl QB, had a bad year and fans & media were calling for Billy Volek..[/QUOTE]

That's a point that Doug Williams brought up many years ago. About how the perception was that a Black QB had to be good enough to start, and if not he wasn't worth keeping around. Because you can't really teach athleticism, and that's really all the Black QB could offer. They didn't, the perception was, have the mental acuity to be a backup and learn how to be an NFL QB despite less than stellar athletic abilities. Which is, of course, ridiculous and the past two decades I think have shown that this "problem" is going away.

Yes McNabb is criticized (and praised). But any sensible criticism has nothing to do with his race. It's about his injury history, his diminishing skills (as a result of all these injuries), the team's inability to give him the best tools to succeed, and the fact that he's stuck playing amidst a cesspool of Eagles fans.

Now if Eagles fans are racist, that's a damn shame. But don't project that sentiment around the league.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=Rajmahal33;354703]Also i have heard the argument that donovan's accomplishments as far as consecutive NFC championship appearances and others, don't matter anymore b/c in the NFL people have a very short term memory. Also people say that Philly is very passionate about their football and that is why they are impatient with donovan. What about Brett Favre? As I recall he went to two superbowls and won 1 (10+ years ago) and people in GB act like he was elected to a position for life. Brett rode the coattails of his defense and RB just as much as Donovan did, if not more and he competed in the abysmal NFC North (then the NFC central with guaranteed wins against the horrible Lions, Bears, and Bucs). GB is every bit as passionate about their football as Philly and if anything has more at stake about the teams success (since each taxpayer owns a portion of the team). Why didn't the media and the fans in GB call for Brett's hide when he threw 4 picks in that playoff game including an unnecessary hail mary with ample time on the clock? I think its partially due to the fact that Brett had the good ol' boy all american look going for him.[/QUOTE]

There was a lot of anti-Favre backlash. There has been for a few years now.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;354679][b]That's hard to bite. If that were true the black athlete would not comprise the 80% < > that curretly is the NFL norm. [/b]A bunch of second tier white guys would be there instead.
I think the current lack of quality QB's in the NFL is serious, and not lost on NFL management, and coach's. If he can throw the ball, I think Jamal Alvarez Feldman gets a contract this afternoon.
If Mcnabb is trying to help his cause, he's a stupid SOB if does not realize the effect his continued cry baby remarks are having.[/QUOTE]

Black players are the majority of 'skill position' players, but the "cerebral positions" center and QB are manned at more than a 90% clip of white players.. I don't see how someone who is uniquely qualified to express his opinon (since nobody here on the board is a black NFL QB) makes him a stupid SOB and cry baby.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;354697]Yes, yes he is. Brooks is terrible.

Look, people look at Losman's passer rating and think that he made a huge improvement in 2006. He didn't, because he threw for a high percentage of his teams TD's and that will heavily skew passer rating. Losman makes a ton of bad decisions, and although his periphials (comp % and Y/A) were pretty good last year, the ridculous jump between his second and third seasons has "fluke" written all over it. So far this year, Losman only has 5.5 y/a passing, not very good.

Scouting error, which is rampant in the NFL, is not evidence that black QBs are undervalued. If anything, QB athleticism is incredibly overvalued, be you black, white, or other. Look at Leftwich's case. The guy has better rushing skills than Carson Palmer, and better pocket mobility than Kyle Boller, but he's out of a job. Because of his race? No, because his coach spends all day on the defensive side of the ball, decides that fat people can't move, and thusly that Garrard is his QB.

[b]Black QBs don't get the benefit of the doubt? Shaun King? Aaron Brooks? Tavaris Jackson? Rodney Peete? Jeff Blake? Anthony Wright?

None of these guys are superstars, but they all hung around as backups (save Jackson) while young prospects got put on the practice squad and then out of the league.

Tony Banks?[/b]

Ill agree that Warren Moon had to take the long road because of the era he played in, and Cunningham was met with a lot of criticizm, the type that McNabb thinks he's getting, but I believe that Moon and Cunningham cant be enamored with McNabb's feelings right now.[/QUOTE]
To the part bolded, getting a fair opportunity isn't the benefit of the doubt.

I agree that for the most part Brooks is terrible, but is he any worse than Doug Johnson, Drew Henson, Billy Volek, Kerry Collins, Jared Lorenzen, Charlie Frye, Patrick Ramsey (that was for some of you out there :) ), David Carr, AJ Feely? My point isn't that he is good, just he somewhat accomplished as an NFL QB but didn't get a sniff this offseason even as a backup..

For every Shaun King (who took his team to the NFC Championship game & was in the league less than 5 years) there are 2-3 Todd Collins, players who were never starters yet carved out a long career as a backup.. Aaron Brooks holds a lot of Saints passing records (over Archie Manning), Jackson was a second round pick and is still young, Peete was a high draft pick who started for most of his career, Blake & Wright are somewhat exceptions to the rule..

As I orignally posted, black QB have to be great, not good to have a long career in the league.. The criticism they get seems to be quicker and harsher than white QB and the leash is a lot shorter..

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;354690]Good points.

If Donovan had come out and said, "hey guys, don't you think I'm being unfairly critized based on a two game sample under special circumstances," I would be behind him 100%. At the end of the season when the Eagles offense starts producing like they should be and they compete for/make the playoffs, this early season criticism will be far in the mirror.[/quote]

Just FYI, this interview was taped in August. The airing date was particularly bad timing and I've no doubt that this was not accidental on the part of the show's producers.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

I hope the Eagles never win a SB......no matter who their QB is....black, white, asian, Indian, Thai, whatever......Donovan's rant is useless....just go out and play....if you are afraid of or have to cry about criticism, then get a new job....

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=70Chip;354291]McNabb presser with the Philly media, much of it related to this topic:

[URL="http://www.profootballtalk.com/McNabbRemarks9-19-07.htm"]ProFootballTalk.com -- The Best Pro Football Scoop on the Internet[/URL][/quote]

Ok first of all I am not black but a minority and I have experienced racism and I do experience it everyday in small ways. But they key is when I feel it has gone too far or is offensive enough to present on such a large scale I do it in a much more appropriate way.

Just look at that recent presser, and how he is treating the media and those who are just asking questions. I dont really care what you think or believe. When you want to defend a strong position you have to do it properly or you will end up sounding like a complete dumbass, like McNabb.

Whenever they asked him questions, his answers were "Hey I don't know, you guys are the media you all know", and commonly putting in "you know" every two sentences. He sounds like a complete dumbass who is just full of shit. I could care less what the fuck he thinks and I am embarrassed that he is representing minorities in such a demeaning way.

Every time I read anything he has to say it just pisses me off even more. It is obvious this guy doesn't give a crap about anything but himself and when he is asked to properly explain his position he just gets upset.

As people have said the world of sports has integrated and has a much smaller impact of racism, so he needs to shut up and play. He is a freaking distraction to his organization and teammates. Next time, during the offseason do some research, learn some stats, and properly present yourself on this issue McNabb.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=hooskins;354839]Ok first of all I am not black but a minority and I have experienced racism and I do experience it everyday in small ways. But they key is when I feel it has gone too far or is offensive enough to present on such a large scale I do it in a much more appropriate way.

Just look at that recent presser, and how he is treating the media and those who are just asking questions. I dont really care what you think or believe. When you want to defend a strong position you have to do it properly or you will end up sounding like a complete dumbass, like McNabb.

Whenever they asked him questions, his answers were "Hey I don't know, you guys are the media you all know", and commonly putting in "you know" every two sentences. He sounds like a complete dumbass who is just full of shit. I could care less what the fuck he thinks and I am embarrassed that he is representing minorities in such a demeaning way.

Every time I read anything he has to say it just pisses me off even more. It is obvious this guy doesn't give a crap about anything but himself and when he is asked to properly explain his position he just gets upset.

As people have said the world of sports has integrated and has a much smaller impact of racism, so he needs to shut up and play. He is a freaking distraction to his organization and teammates. Next time, during the offseason do some research, learn some stats, and properly present yourself on this issue McNabb.[/quote]

Well said...thats how Ive perceived this exactly.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;354703]Also i have heard the argument that donovan's accomplishments as far as consecutive NFC championship appearances and others, don't matter anymore b/c in the NFL people have a very short term memory. Also people say that Philly is very passionate about their football and that is why they are impatient with donovan. What about Brett Favre? As I recall he went to two superbowls and won 1 (10+ years ago) and people in GB act like he was elected to a position for life. Brett rode the coattails of his defense and RB just as much as Donovan did, if not more and he competed in the abysmal NFC North (then the NFC central with guaranteed wins against the horrible Lions, Bears, and Bucs). GB is every bit as passionate about their football as Philly and if anything has more at stake about the teams success (since each taxpayer owns a portion of the team). Why didn't the media and the fans in GB call for Brett's hide when he threw 4 picks in that playoff game including an unnecessary hail mary with ample time on the clock? I think its partially due to the fact that Brett had the good ol' boy all american look going for him.[/quote]

Any direct comparison between the people, cities and cultures of GB, and Philly, is absurd.
Sooooo, you are saying that Brett is given a free ride because he is white?

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=Paintrain;354738]Black players are the majority of 'skill position' players, but the "cerebral positions" center and QB are manned at more than a 90% clip of white players.. I don't see how someone who is uniquely qualified to express his opinon (since nobody here on the board is a black NFL QB) makes him a stupid SOB and cry baby.[/quote]

He is also "Uniquely Qualified" to repeatedly bear the backlash of such comments to the media, and the questionable judgement of doing so.......repeatedly.
The failure to learn that a certain action, will bring a certain negative reaction, time and again makes him a stupid SOB

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=Paintrain;354741]To the part bolded, getting a fair opportunity isn't the benefit of the doubt.

I agree that for the most part Brooks is terrible, but is he any worse than Doug Johnson, Drew Henson, Billy Volek, Kerry Collins, Jared Lorenzen, Charlie Frye, Patrick Ramsey (that was for some of you out there :) ), David Carr, AJ Feely? My point isn't that he is good, just he somewhat accomplished as an NFL QB but didn't get a sniff this offseason even as a backup..

For every Shaun King (who took his team to the NFC Championship game & was in the league less than 5 years) there are 2-3 Todd Collins, players who were never starters yet carved out a long career as a backup.. Aaron Brooks holds a lot of Saints passing records (over Archie Manning), Jackson was a second round pick and is still young, Peete was a high draft pick who started for most of his career, Blake & Wright are somewhat exceptions to the rule..

As I orignally posted, black QB have to be great, not good to have a long career in the league.. The criticism they get seems to be quicker and harsher than white QB and the leash is a lot shorter..[/quote]

I have to agree with you on 100% on Aaron Brooks. He is better than so many NFL back-ups it's not even funny. Brooks is better than Drew Henson, Jared Lorenzen, Charlie Frye, AJ Feely, Joey Harrington, Doug Johnson, JT O'Sullivan, Bruce Gradkowdski. I'm probably mssing some. But you get my point.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

[quote=skinsfan69;355013]I have to agree with you on 100% on Aaron Brooks. He is better than so many NFL back-ups it's not even funny. Brooks is better than Drew Henson, Jared Lorenzen, Charlie Frye, AJ Feely, Joey Harrington, Doug Johnson, JT O'Sullivan, Bruce Gradkowdski. I'm probably mssing some. But you get my point.[/quote]I don't think I'd cut a single one of those guys for Brooks.

I think in a few cases, Brooks is a comprable option. However, he's on the wrong side of 30, and is pretty horrible. Lorenzen, Frye, Harrington, O'Sullivan, and Gradkowski are all still getting better. I think I'd take Brooks over Doug Johnson, but that's pretty much about it.

I don't think the Bengals would be a lot better with Brooks as their No. 2 anyway.

Henson sucks, but hes not in the league, I don't believe.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

I think a point a lot of people are missing is that the majority of black QB's are scrambling qb's. The Majority of white qb's are pocket passers.
I don't think this issues is as much about race as it is style of qb.
Vick was a god in Atlanta and would have had that job for life, and he did nothing to deserve it. Young in Tennessee has been given the key to the freakin city and everyone thinks he's an amazing QB (minus me...I feel he's the most overrated QB in the league). Look at Culpepper...he came off a possible career ending injury, and the Dolphins STILL gave him the full reins and a nice contract even though they had no clue of what they were getting. Leftwich was one of the few pocket passers, and what did he do for jacksonville? Nothing! He never threw for more than 15 td's in a season. Who did they replace him with? A black scrambling QB.
McNabb talked about Manning and Brady...well, in case he forgot, Manning was scrutinized for not being able to win the big game until he won the big game. Brady has won 3...why would he be scrutinized? McNabb needs to shut up and win the big one, then he can ride their bus. Instead is a consistant loser when the playoffs come around!
Pennington was freakin cheered for getting hurt in NY. Eli has been called "sheli". In our own backyard, Brunell took us to the playoffs, and his job was still in jeopardy. Plummer was on his way to the playoffs then got benched for a rookie.
This is not about race people, this is about "what have you done for me lately." White QB's have been scrutinized just as much as black qb's (in recent years, not back in the day). McNabb is living in the past, and it's wrong to assume it's race. It's obviously not when Campbell and Young come out and say what they did. I respect both for saying it, and I appreciate Campbell's stand.
About Favre...he plays in an area that idolizes their players...they have nothing else. He won a super bowl for them, and that's all they needed for life...that signed his ticket.
PS- Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson won super bowls, and where are they now? They did what McNabb can't do, and they lost their jobs shortly after winning. Don't tell me white qb's are not held to the same standards. They are. It's all about what have you done for me lately.

Re: And now I don't care about McNabb...
 

McNabb is trying to turn the table on this so people don't see just how bad he is in the playoffs. I do not blame the Phily fans for getting restless...they are a perennial playoff team, yet they have not won anything. How is this? Who is the first to be blamed in these cases? The QB!
McNabb has been the reason they lost in 5 playoff games. That's 5 years worth of losses. That's HUGE!
2000- 181 yards, 1td, 1int
2001- 171 yards, 1td, 1int
2002- 243 yards, 0td, 1int
2003- 100 yards, 0td, 3int
2004- 357 yards, 3td, 3int*
*- in the super bowl, those 3int's killed the eagles...he played fairly well otherwise.
In 5 games, he threw for 1052 yards, 5tds, and 9int's. This is a guy that averages a little under 2 td's a game, and a little over .5 int's a game, yet in the playoff losses he averages only 1 td but almost 2 int's a game?
I ask you, what QB in the league has performed this poorly in the playoffs and not gotten any scrutiny? If you ask me, he's lucky to not get more flack from people. He's the true choke artist. Most people don't even get that many chances to prove themselves...he's had ample opportunity and blew it. Again, this is not about race, it's about him, and he's trying to deflect it to be about race.
You want to talk about race in sports, then let's talk about how many white people there are playing basketball.