Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;659879]Marshall is a fringe No. 1 who clearly has the talent to be so much more. So many of his catches in any given game are of the useless variety.

He was a lot improved this year with Orton at QB I thought because instead of being a limiting factor on his quarterback when Cutler was there, he became a positive factor for Orton who doesn't have the type of downfield accuracy that Cutler does.

But ultimately, Marshall's catch rate numbers and other value metrics are the same every year, which means that, even though his improvements have been evident, we really do know what he is at this point. And he's not a "true" No. 1, like an Owens, Moss, Wayne, Holt, or Vincent Jackson all in their primes. Like Braylon, he's an above average player who is expendable at a good price.[/quote]

Marshall has had 100 catches each of the last three years (he's only been in the league four years). I'd say that qualifies him as a bonafide No. 1 WR. Braylon Edwards is a flash in the pan. Good for the Browns for dumping him (and Winslow) when they could.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=DIE-NASTY;659886]Marshall has had 100 catches each of the last three years (he's only been in the league four years). I'd say that qualifies him as a bonafide No. 1 WR. Braylon Edwards is a flash in the pan. Good for the Browns for dumping him (and Winslow) when they could.[/quote]Interesting point here, but my response would be, do you consider Jamal Lewis to be a hall of famer?

In his first four years he rushed for 1,000 yards in each and had a 2,000 yard season and a pro bowl/all pro season. At the time, he was averaging 4.6 yards per carry, which is certainly a hall of fame figure.

It's not a perfect comparison by any means, they don't play the same position, and no one is calling Brandon Marshall a future hall of famer, but I'm making the comparison because Lewis' per play metrics were never that impressive even in his early days (including his 2,000 yd season) and he had a jail stint and predictably declined.

But he's one of six players in NFL history to rush for 2,000 yards (and I'd imagine Marshall is one of roughly the same number to have three consecutive 100 reception seasons), so shouldn't Lewis be in the hall of fame someday?

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;659887]Interesting point here, but my response would be, do you consider Jamal Lewis to be a hall of famer?

In his first four years he rushed for 1,000 yards in each and had a 2,000 yard season and a pro bowl/all pro season. At the time, he was averaging 4.6 yards per carry, which is certainly a hall of fame figure.

It's not a perfect comparison by any means, they don't play the same position, and no one is calling Brandon Marshall a future hall of famer, but I'm making the comparison because Lewis' per play metrics were never that impressive even in his early days (including his 2,000 yd season) and he had a jail stint and predictably declined.

But he's one of six players in NFL history to rush for 2,000 yards (and I'd imagine Marshall is one of roughly the same number to have three consecutive 100 reception seasons), so shouldn't Lewis be in the hall of fame someday?[/quote]

im kinda confused why you went on a hall of fame rant there. but i think marshall is hitting his strike and is gonna be in his prime for another few years....why wouldnt any team like to have this guy outside of his off the field shit? i do agree with whoever said he will prob end up on a team like the dolphins or ravens. The dolphins seem like a young team and need that big number one receiver (and yes i believe BM is a legit number 1). the ravens have to start thinking about the future due to a large number of their best players are getting up there in age. i mean i wouldnt be entirely surprised if shanny and danny try to get him but i think we have bigger fish to catch at this point. we have a couple of young guys still improving in Thomas and Kelly that could, maybe, one day turn into a decent number one. i would rather us go after o line help and peppers then BM.

o and lol to Buster for the Brian Michell comment...we could use him at this point lol

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=HugeMonkFan;659889]im kinda confused why you went on a hall of fame rant there. but i think marshall is hitting his strike and is gonna be in his prime for another few years....why wouldnt any team like to have this guy outside of his off the field shit? i do agree with whoever said he will prob end up on a team like the dolphins or ravens. The dolphins seem like a young team and need that big number one receiver (and yes i believe BM is a legit number 1). the ravens have to start thinking about the future due to a large number of their best players are getting up there in age. i mean i wouldnt be entirely surprised if shanny and danny try to get him but i think we have bigger fish to catch at this point. we have a couple of young guys still improving in Thomas and Kelly that could, maybe, one day turn into a decent number one. i would rather us go after o line help and peppers then BM.

o and lol to Buster for the Brian Michell comment...we could use him at this point lol[/quote]I went on a hall of fame rant...because it made sense to me at the time.

But the true point, which I stand by, is about productivity measures. Marshall has never been a very productive player. But he certainly accounts for a large portion of his teams offense every season, as evidenced by a low catch rate and a high number of receptions every year. He's roughly 1/3 of his teams entire offense, which is basically unheard of for a single receiver.

Marshall's strengths include being an excellent bad ball saver (which leads to spectacular catches), and being a very valuable receiver and route runner in the deep field. But despite his strong frame and hands, he's one of the worst underneath targets in pro football. He'll go over the middle, but a lot of his quarterbacks interceptions occur on those deep dig routes to Marshall. He's not very good at that bubble screen, even though they run it to him all the time, and though he's very good after the catch, he can't (doesn't?) really run away from linebackers on drags.

You, generally speaking, don't want to run 1/3 of your offense through a player like that. It's not a winning strategy. You DO want to use his big play ability multiple times a game. But when Brandon Marshall catches 20 passes, it tells me that he's not really commanding the respect of the defense as the argument for him being a true no. 1 would suggest he does. The Colts--who might know something about defense--didn't feel like they needed to take Brandon Marshall away to win. They were right.

It's not like Denver has a gaping hole at No. 1 WR like, say, St. Louis. Marshall is adequate for the role. He's just not a "go-to" type of character. That's not really his game. He'd be more effective if a team lived off the running game, tight end, and slot receiver, and then like DeSean Jackson, you send him deep every half or so and try to let him break the game wide open (Jackson is actually good at the WR screen though). Given where Denver is as an offense, they can certainly afford to part ways with him.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

I don't know man. Denver didn't have much of a running game, Eddie Royal didn't put up the same production he did a year ago, Scheffler is on a milk carton in MCD offense and BM is the reason Orton had so much success (he did better than Cutler in Chi-town).

My idea of a No. 1 WR is he's the guy who catches the ball when the defense knows he's getting the ball. To catch 100 passes three straight years is special. Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice (he caught 100 passes 1994-1996 seasons) pulled it off and they're both going to be HOFers. Wes Welker has done it. Sterling Sharpe (and he was damn good) caught 100 passes in consecutive years but never three years in a row.

If we hadn't mortgaged away our draft picks so foolishly away the past few years, I'd say make a move. Maybe we can trade back and make draft-day trade for BM (I'd give up a middle 2nd not our current pick but preferably a 3rd or less for the guy). Odds are someone is going to get BM for next to nothing compared to what they'll get out of the guy.

I'd rather trade two prospects which is what draft picks are for a proven player any day.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

but see the thing is we have other players, moss, cooley, various rbs to where he wont have to be a 1/3 of our offense...im confused how you say he didnt produce but he was a third of denvers offense. thats like saying matt forte didnt produce 2 years ago or chris johnson didnt this year. I agree that he doesnt HAVE to be doubled every play like Andre Johnson, Randy Moss and the like but hes getting there.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

I don't think Marshal is good enough to get fleeced in order to get him. We can find talent in the draft and coach them up

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;659879]Marshall is a fringe No. 1 who clearly has the talent to be so much more. So many of his catches in any given game are of the useless variety.

He was a lot improved this year with Orton at QB I thought because instead of being a limiting factor on his quarterback when Cutler was there, he became a positive factor for Orton who doesn't have the type of downfield accuracy that Cutler does.

But ultimately, Marshall's catch rate numbers and other value metrics are the same every year, which means that, even though his improvements have been evident, we really do know what he is at this point. And he's not a "true" No. 1, like an Owens, Moss, Wayne, Holt, or Vincent Jackson all in their primes. Like Braylon, he's an above average player who is expendable at a good price.[/quote]

Sorry Tripp but I don't judge guys on metrics. And neither does anyone that plays in the NFL. Above average players simply don't catch 20 + passes on two different occasion, put up 100 + catches 3 years in a row. It just doesn't happen. I mean the guy had 100 catches w/ Kyle Orton as his QB, plus he missed a game. His credentials on the field speak for themsleves. We haven't seen that type of production at the WR spot since the Posse days. You may not know what he is at this point but I think the rest of the NFL does. And I can promise you the NFL and the guys who defend him don't think of Brandon Marshall as an above average player.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

I'll just repost what I wrote earlier

Marshall is an unbelievable talent, but it's a stretch to say that he is a "must have" for us. In four years in Denver, the Broncos never made the playoffs, finished above 500 (9-7) only once and the offense never finished in the top half of the NFL.

Do we really think we're that close that we can give up draft picks for a guy who alone won't make much of a difference in getting us to being a winning franchise again? I'd rather have four guys catch 5 passes on a 12-4 playoff team than one guy catch 20 on an 8-8 golfing in december team

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

^ Plus Thomas and Kelly may step up next year in a way which makes us forget about Brandon Marshall.

There is no way that Shanny will spend picks on Marshall, whom he wanted to cut before, anyway.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;660103]I'll just repost what I wrote earlier

Marshall is an unbelievable talent, but it's a stretch to say that he is a "must have" for us. In four years in Denver, the Broncos never made the playoffs, finished above 500 (9-7) only once and the offense never finished in the top half of the NFL.

Do we really think we're that close that we can give up draft picks for a guy who alone won't make much of a difference in getting us to being a winning franchise again? I'd rather have four guys catch 5 passes on a 12-4 playoff team than one guy catch 20 on an 8-8 golfing in december team[/quote]

Well said. Why on earth would we ship away multiple picks for a malcontent WR when we have such pressing needs at other positions? I think Devin Thomas is well on his way to being the playmaker we hoped he'd be when he was drafted.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. Giving up multiple draft picks for this guy would be exactly that.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=skinsfan69;660096]Sorry Tripp but I don't judge guys on metrics. And neither does anyone that plays in the NFL. Above average players simply don't catch 20 + passes on two different occasion, put up 100 + catches 3 years in a row. It just doesn't happen. I mean the guy had 100 catches w/ Kyle Orton as his QB, plus he missed a game. His credentials on the field speak for themsleves. We haven't seen that type of production at the WR spot since the Posse days. You may not know what he is at this point but I think the rest of the NFL does. And I can promise you the NFL and the guys who defend him don't think of Brandon Marshall as an above average player.[/quote]

Agreed, I don't know of too many "fringe #1" types that put up 3 consecutive 100+ catch seasons. Those are some serious big boy numbers.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=GMScud;660107]Well said. Why on earth would we ship away multiple picks for a malcontent WR when we have such pressing needs at other positions? [B]I think Devin Thomas is well on his way to being the playmaker we hoped he'd be when he was drafted.[/B]

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. Giving up multiple draft picks for this guy would be exactly that.[/quote]

Whoah stop the presses...

You feeling ok? ;)

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=SmootSmack;660103]I'll just repost what I wrote earlier

Marshall is an unbelievable talent, but it's a stretch to say that he is a "must have" for us. In four years in Denver, the Broncos never made the playoffs, finished above 500 (9-7) only once and the offense never finished in the top half of the NFL.

Do we really think we're that close that we can give up draft picks for a guy who alone won't make much of a difference in getting us to being a winning franchise again? I'd rather have four guys catch 5 passes on a 12-4 playoff team than one guy catch 20 on an 8-8 golfing in december team[/quote]

who cares if they didn't make the playoffs? it sure wasn't his fault. we don't have any true studs on offense. all we have is some maybe's... when you bring a guy like marshall it opens up the running game, it opens stuff up for the TE's underneath, the 2nd and 3rd wr's will get single coverage, it will help jc. remember how important burress was during the giants sb run?? we're not talking about brandon lloyd here. if the price is right allen and shanahan need to try and make the deal.

Re: RUMOR: Trade talks between Browns (Brady Quinn) and Broncos (Brandon Marshall)
 

[quote=GMScud;660107]Well said. Why on earth would we ship away multiple picks for a malcontent WR when we have such pressing needs at other positions? I think Devin Thomas is well on his way to being the playmaker we hoped he'd be when he was drafted.

The definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior and expecting different results. Giving up multiple draft picks for this guy would be exactly that.[/quote]

Thomas had one good game against New Orleans who were bringing in d-backs in off the street. Overall he had something like 20 some catches for the year?? Marshall had that in one game. lol. I'm not saying we give up on these guys but either they start producing next year or good bye.