Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

For once we're on the same page FD.

Shitty that this happened, but I'm sure the cop didn't intend on shooting and killing a 7 year old child. You're right, that guy is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. Not a small burden at all.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701512]I saw that as well but at this point we don't know what happened. Sounds like an accident either way and now this officer will have to live with this the rest of his life. [B]Also if the guy was arrested in their home they hold the burden of allowing a guy who killed someone to hide out in their home but I guess we can just ignore that[/B].[/quote]

I don't give a damn who was in the house. In the first place, no knock warrants are retarded. It's a high risk warrant because THE POLICE decided to kick in the door instead of sitting on the house and jacking him up when he left. There's no reason to go running into a house with your guns drawn to catch one killer, you don't know what's on the other side of that door, it's dangerous for everyone involved and it's just plain stupid. Second, the officer is trained to handle situations like that and guns don't just "go off." He pulled the f'ing trigger, he should be owning up to it. Saying it was "an accident" doesn't excuse the fact that the police took the life of a 7 year old girl. Neither does the fact that someone let the man stay there (who knows if they knew what he had done, but you conveniently overlook that fact while you calmly excuse the death of a 7 year old). A lot of people are taking a nonchalant approach saying, "it's not like he meant to kill her." Who cares what he meant to do? He killed the kid.

How much safer is the city of Detroit now, btw that one murderer was apprehended? How much safer is the city in Missouri because a guy who had a little bit of pot was apprehended by police? The fact remains that the raids are stupid and not a whole lot of good comes out of them.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701516]For once we're on the same page FD.

Shitty that this happened, but I'm sure the cop didn't intend on shooting and killing a 7 year old child. You're right, that guy is going to have to live with that for the rest of his life. [B]Not a small burden at all.[/B][/quote]

"Not a small burden?" Really? Who don't we apply that logic to the guy the police were apprehending and excuse his murder because he's going to have carry that burden around :rolleyes:

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701509]I understand all of that but my point is this happens eveyday but people just move on and ignore the issue. Just like people are blowing me off for asking the question. The death of this girl was an accident when the officers gun went off but we kids are shooting up neighbor hoods every night and its like no big deal.[/quote]

I don't think people move on and ignore the issue; communities set up community outreaches like the one JoeRedskin had started the thread on, to try to reduce violence in the neighborhoods. BUT when the police overstep and kill a 7yo girl, a huge fuss should be made about it, there should be internal reviews to find out what can be changed. These men and women train constantly to prevent this situation, and when it occurs it should be seen as a tragedy, and citizens should ask did the police do everything right. otherwise, the police should have staked out the bldg, and apprehended the suspect when he came outside. You can't have it both ways where you gripe about the government helping a local neighborhood develop a center that promotes civil behaviour and than turn around and say the community needs to behave better when the cops shoot an innocent.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=jdlea;701520]I don't give a damn who was in the house. In the first place, no knock warrants are retarded. It's a high risk warrant because THE POLICE decided to kick in the door instead of sitting on the house and jacking him up when he left. There's no reason to go running into a house with your guns drawn to catch one killer, you don't know what's on the other side of that door, it's dangerous for everyone involved and it's just plain stupid. Second, the officer is trained to handle situations like that and guns don't just "go off." He pulled the f'ing trigger, he should be owning up to it. Saying it was "an accident" doesn't excuse the fact that the police took the life of a 7 year old girl. Neither does the fact that someone let the man stay there (who knows if they knew what he had done, but you conveniently overlook that fact while you calmly excuse the death of a 7 year old). A lot of people are taking a nonchalant approach saying, "it's not like he meant to kill her." Who cares what he meant to do? He killed the kid.

How much safer is the city of Detroit now, btw that one murderer was apprehended? How much safer is the city in Missouri because a guy who had a little bit of pot was apprehended by police? The fact remains that the raids are stupid and not a whole lot of good comes out of them.[/quote]

I never excused the death of this child and I was actually making the point that this happens everyday but no one seems to care when its just gang stuff. Now that a cop has shot the kid by accident everyone is making a big issue of this. If your going to bitch about an accident then be consitent and bitch about killing of children. The cops where actually after a guy who had killed a kid and where was the out cry about that murder. Sense we invaded Iraq we have had around 135,000 murders in the US but no one never seems to get all worked up over many of those murders. It can be said that our service men are safer in Iraq then in some of our city neighborhoods but we ignore that violence and lost of children.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=jdlea;701522]"Not a small burden?" Really? Who don't we apply that logic to the guy the police were apprehending and excuse his murder because he's going to have carry that burden around :rolleyes:[/quote]

Not following you...

I'm not excusing anyone

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

Look, there's plenty of blame to go around here, I'm just not a fan of playing the blame game and assuming the cops are the bad guys. Does anyone think it was their intention to kill a 7 year old? It's a shitty situation for sure but there's many sides to this story.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701525]I never excused the death of this child and I was actually making the point that this happens everyday but no one seems to care when its just gang stuff. Now that a cop has shot the kid by accident everyone is making a big issue of this. If your going to bitch about an accident then be consitent and bitch about killing of children. The cops where actually after a guy who had killed a kid and where was the out cry about that murder. Sense we invaded Iraq we have had around 135,000 murders in the US but no one never seems to get all worked up over many of those murders. It can be said that our service men are safer in Iraq then in some of our city neighborhoods but we ignore that violence and lost of children.[/quote]

2 things, then I will try to let it go.

Who ignores these murders? Don't we have government, law enforcement and politicians; as well as civic societies, leaders and local news working day in day out to bring these murders forward. Because you don't hear about every one, doesn't mean it or they are ignored in the community that they happen.

Second, again, police are, AND SHOULD BE, held to a higher standard in many ways. Why? Because they get to legally carry the guns and use them justifiably, and when they abuse, or misuse, their authority, even "accidentally", they reduce the trust society places in them.

In this case, they were the aggressor, and as the aggressor they need to be picture perfect in their execution or their actions, and outcomes will be called into question.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701527]Look, there's plenty of blame to go around here, I'm just not a fan of playing the blame game and assuming the cops are the bad guys. Does anyone think it was their intention to kill a 7 year old? It's a shitty situation for sure but there's many sides to this story.[/quote]

I don't follow the "plenty of blame" on this one, the cops chose to assault this house at that time, they could have opted for many lesser aggressive behaviours, including stakeouts, warrants etc, but they chose the most aggressive form, and a 7yo innocent lost her life due to that simple choice. I don't see blame all around. just excuses for an overreaching decision on the use of force.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701531]I don't follow the "plenty of blame" on this one, the cops chose to assault this house at that time, they could have opted for many lesser aggressive behaviours, including stakeouts, warrants etc, but they chose the most aggressive form, and a 7yo innocent lost her life due to that simple choice. I don't see blame all around. just excuses for an overreaching decision on the use of force.[/quote]

The entire raid procedure needs to be reevaluated from the top down, wouldn't you agree?

And at the heart of it, this guy gave the police a reason to raid his place, no? We're not talking about an innocent civilian.

And if there was a struggle upon the police entering that's a factor as well.

I'm not clear on how the cops are the only ones to blame.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[QUOTE]DETROIT – Seven-year-old Aiyana Jones was asleep on the living room sofa in her family's apartment when Detroit police searching for a homicide suspect burst in and an officer's gun went off, fatally striking the girl in the neck, family members say.

Her father, 25-year-old Charles Jones, told The Detroit News he had just gone to bed early Sunday after covering his daughter with her favorite Disney princess blanket when he heard a flash grenade followed by a gunshot. When he rushed into the living room, [B]he said, police forced him to lie on the ground, with his face in his daughter's blood.[/B]

"I'll never be the same. That's my only daughter," Jones told WXYZ-TV.

Assistant Chief Ralph Godbee said officers set off the flash grenade as they entered the apartment with their guns drawn about 12:40 a.m.

...

Family members identified the woman as the child's grandmother and Charles Jones' mother, Mertilla Jones, who has said she was not involved in a struggle with the officer. [B]Police later said the officer may have just collided with the woman.[/B][/QUOTE]

no excuse imo

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=firstdown;701525]I never excused the death of this child and I was actually making the point that this happens everyday but no one seems to care when its just gang stuff. Now that a cop has shot the kid by accident everyone is making a big issue of this. If your going to bitch about an accident then be consitent and bitch about killing of children. The cops where actually after a guy who had killed a kid and where was the out cry about that murder. Sense we invaded Iraq we have had around 135,000 murders in the US but no one never seems to get all worked up over many of those murders. It can be said that our service men are safer in Iraq then in some of our city neighborhoods but we ignore that violence and lost of children.[/quote]

Well, I am consistent and I get worked up over the killing of every child I hear about, I just don't usually address it on a message board. I don't think there's ever any excuse for it.

In regards to getting worked up over every murder, I'm consistent on that as well, I only ever get worked up when innocents are killed. I have no problem with gang members/drug dealers killing each other so long as they're accurate when they decide to shoot at each other areas where others may be harmed.

As for the "excusing the death of a child" comment, if that was not your intention, I apologize, it just seems that you're taking a bit of a laissez faire attitude as it pertains to the killing of a kid.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701526]Not following you...

I'm not excusing anyone[/quote]

Like I said to FD, if that was not your attention, I apologize, but you're taking a very nonchalant approach to the killing of a 7 year old. The "he has to live with it excuse" is pretty horrendous, IMO.

As to your other points, in later posts. Yes, the raid procedure should be re-evaluated, probably eliminated, IMO.

Yes, the guy gave the police a reason to raid his home, however, the raid was poorly executed. IMO, the blame falls on the officers who raided that home, so I can't say there's plenty of blame to go around.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;701534]no excuse imo[/quote]

Yep...."police may have collided with woman"....just go ahead f*cking say it Detriot PD, the woman action did not lead to the shooting of the girl. Sounds like police reaching for excuses...

To comment on the blame, anybody harboring a dangerous fugitive is asking for alot of trouble, and if they knew already of what the person did then they should be ashamed, but the shooting of child just shows the even though accidental the community should be outraged.

Re: Missouri Cops Raid House... Shoots Dogs with Children Present
 

[quote=Mattyk;701533]The entire raid procedure needs to be reevaluated from the top down, wouldn't you agree?

And at the heart of it, this guy gave the police a reason to raid his place, no? We're not talking about an innocent civilian.

And if there was a struggle upon the police entering that's a factor as well.

I'm not clear on how the cops are the only ones to blame.[/quote]

Simple, because they chose the time and place. It sounds like she was burned by the flash bang. In other words, the cops were overly aggressive, they didn't check out the possible surroundings, and didn't know the occupants of the house. The police have backed off the "struggle" and say the officer may simply have collided with a 46 yo grandma.