Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[quote=Buster;298684]That e-mail talking about forgiveness is noble and is a great way to cope with the losses. We SHOULD have a forgiving heart like God intends. However, it is tough to believe the guy just "snapped". This was obviously planned out. He had several weapons, the first bought March 13, filed the serial numbers off, chained some doors shut ahead of time so students could not escape, killed a couple, went back to his room and reloaded and packed a backpack with knives and more ammo and proceded to do some more human hunting. He also wrote and left notes explaining his actions.

He wasn't instantly pushed to these actions by someone's words or actions, he planned it out and thought about it long enough to decide it was what he really wanted to do. It would be somewhat easier to forgive and feel sympathy if he was for instance a bus driver who lost his temper and crashed...but this was a cold, calculating killer who knew EXACTLY what he was doing. If he planned it out while on some bad medication or something, he's probably realize something's not right when he goes to do the shooting. This wasn't a plan thrown together in a single morning.[/quote]
I don't really care what his motives were. He obviously had issues, and anyone who is out there enough to do something like this isn't reasonable.

I don't see what your rant is accomplishing, other than really saying the obvious. He killed a lot of people, and meant to do it. We know. I sympathize with everyone involved, including the killer. Whatever twisted ideals was going on in his head, it doesn't provide reason or excuse for his actions. This isn't a product of "propaganda". This isn't a result of gun control laws.

It's a tragedy, and should be reflected upon. I don't really know if there is much of anything to gain from this as a society.

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[QUOTE=Buster;298693]Non-citizens of the United States have no protections under the Constitution and Bill of Rights, including the 1st and 2nd Amendments.[/QUOTE]

For better or worse, they actually do have protections under the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;298700]For better or worse, they actually do have protections under the Constitution and Bill of Rights.[/quote]

Thanks to the ACLU and a lot of lawyers, yes they do...heck, even members of al Qaeda that are prisoners of war are being treated like citizens by some people...but they should not, morally OR legally according to our founding documents.

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[quote=Buster;298667]That's ridiculous. If TV and games had that much of an influence on society, these crimes would be commonplace, not a horrifying exception. Someone with a mental issue may be unable to distinguish reality from a virtual "killing", but you can't blame the game or TV show. I'm sure there have been psychotic people who have gotten a murder idea from a book before, so should be ban books too?[/quote]

There is only one thing that made this kid do what he did, and it's mental illness... and I feel so very sorry for the victims.

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If there are no objections, maybe we should hold off on the debates. I think there are some interesting issues (see the previous posts, including mine), but right now, maybe we should just pause since gun control laws etc. seem so irrelevant in light of the sheer tragedy of the situation.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

charles manson blamed his killing spree on the beatles white album,and now folks are saying this kid got his need to kill from video games.i think either could have listened to roll roll roll your boat 24/7,and still become killers because they both have some type of mental disease or paranoid affliction.
our gun laws here are lax,maybe it is time they were changed some!

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[QUOTE=Buster;298705]Thanks to the ACLU and a lot of lawyers, yes they do...heck, even members of al Qaeda that are prisoners of war are being treated like citizens by some people...but they should not, morally OR legally according to our founding documents.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't disagree more. I hate the ACLU and their ilk but at the same time anybody who is in this country should enjoy the protection of all our laws and rights equally. We are a country founded on fairness and equality. To apply our constitution to only the chosen within our own country is totally controvert to what we should be as a country. Now when it comes to persons outside the US fighting in a war against us or working against us in some threatening way I can live with having a different set of rules but once you're here though you should have the same rights.

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Just to play devil's advocate, is there ever a time when it's time for a country to change what it's all about?

The world is changing every day, so why not the ideals of the country?

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;298739]Just to play devil's advocate, is there ever a time when it's time for a country to change what it's all about?

The world is changing every day, so why not the ideals of the country?[/quote]

Well it is very difficult for a country to change it's ideas. You have to first challenge the old thinking with a shock(the VT shooting) and then you have to consolidate new ideas. People may agree the old way needs to go out but if you cannot agree for new thinking change will not occur.

Change is a two step process, and that is why it rarely happens.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

Very true.

On a side note, CNN has updated and posted some of the excerpts from the note he left, saying "You all made me do this."

Saying it was because of rich kids, debauchery, and deceitful charlatans. Excuse me, but did you expect you were going to a nunnery or COLLEGE?

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[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;298743]Very true.

On a side note, CNN has updated and posted some of the excerpts from the note he left, saying "You all made me do this."

Saying it was because of rich kids, debauchery, and deceitful charlatans. Excuse me, but did you expect you were going to a nunnery or COLLEGE?[/quote]

That is true, from all accounts they say this kid was a "loner" and did not interact much, his creative writing teacher said some of his works were "alarming". Whenever you feel left out and alone that can lead to trouble.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;298743]Very true.

On a side note, CNN has updated and posted some of the excerpts from the note he left, saying "You all made me do this."

Saying it was because of rich kids, debauchery, and deceitful charlatans. Excuse me, but did you expect you were going to a nunnery or COLLEGE?[/QUOTE]

I love how he tries to use "big words." People should check out thesmokinggun.com and look at his creative writing. It's simply awful.

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[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;298745]I love how he tries to use "big words." People should check out thesmokinggun.com and look at his creative writing. It's simply awful.[/quote]

I mean it is a play, so I would not expect it to be very deep. But the fact he is cussing quite a bit in the play and it is just kinda out there seems alarming. He is by no means a good writer, he just seems crazy.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

I tried reading it but was too boring. At least he's going to be entertained by getting raped daily in hell.

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[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;298749]I tried reading it but was too bored. At least he's going to be entertained by getting raped daily in hell.[/quote]

lol ouch...but true.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;298749]I tried reading it but was too boring. At least he's going to be entertained by getting raped daily in hell.[/QUOTE]

F'ed in the A.

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Yes. Again, that phrase is TM'ed by AMD.

I also just found out my fiancee knew someone who was killed. She knew her from the department she worked in last year before she moved back here.

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[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection;298743]Very true.

On a side note, CNN has updated and posted some of the excerpts from the note he left, saying "You all made me do this."

Saying it was because of rich kids, debauchery, and deceitful charlatans. Excuse me, but did you expect you were going to a nunnery or COLLEGE?[/QUOTE]

He was a senior. Why the **** didn't he just drop out as a freshman when he realized that he didn't like the other people at school? I know 'they' didn't just show up out of the blue and set him off.

My fault, I'm thinking like a sane person, which he obviously was not.

I have a 10 year old sister and she just asked me why this guy did this. Talk about breaking my heart in two.
In her sort life she's had to hear about terrorists taking over planes and now a psycho shooting up a college. I'm just glad she doesn't suffer from anxiety attacks or anything like that.

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[quote=FRPLG;298736]I couldn't disagree more. I hate the ACLU and their ilk but at the same time anybody who is in this country should enjoy the protection of all our laws and rights equally. We are a country founded on fairness and equality. To apply our constitution to only the chosen within our own country is totally controvert to what we should be as a country. Now when it comes to persons outside the US fighting in a war against us or working against us in some threatening way I can live with having a different set of rules but once you're here though you should have the same rights.[/quote]
So illigals should have the right to food stamps, assisted housing, etc...

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

This kid was definitely twisted......click on the link below and you can see the plays he wrote...

[url=http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/]Cho Seung-Hui's Plays - News Bloggers[/url]

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[QUOTE=firstdown;298770]So illigals should have the right to food stamps, assisted housing, etc...[/QUOTE]

No I should have included the phrase "people here legally". Illegals should be sent back.

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Unfortunately non US citizens do have the right to purchase firearms under federal law. The states can't override that. However, carry concealed permit holders must be citizens. There are two types of aliens - permanent residents and non-immigrants.

Permanent residents are subject to the same criminal background check as citizens, but they must also produce a valid permanent resident card, a valid state ID and 90 consecutive days proof of residency. I have never felt that aliens should have the right to purchase firearms. Especially non-immigrants since they are only in the country for short periods of time.

The thing people should be concerned most about with regards to our current gun laws is that people like me who issue permits to purchase can't ask someone if they've ever been treated for a "mental condition". I can only access records for those who have been formally committed, adjudicated incompetent, or deemed mentally defective. There are a lot of people out there who suffer from serious disorders who seek treatment on their own and they are never formally committed or found incompetent by a lawful authority. Those are the people who scare me the most and I can't do anything about it. In the past, we asked people about prior mental health histories, but I was told last week by our attorney that I couldn't do it anymore because it didn't meet the statutory requirements. I showed him numerous examples of people who suffered from schizophrenia, paranoia, delusions, bi-polar disorders, etc. and whose doctors recommended they not be given a firearm. He said he shared my concern, but they didn't qualify under the statute and he was bound by the law.

NICS can't get mental health records from some states as well because of their privacy laws. So all the crazies who want to purchase firearms at WalMart can usually do so. NICS is currently in litigation with those states because they are directly violating federal gun laws by not releasing the information. It is truly sad and it pisses me off to think that these people are getting firearms so easily. I think physicians should be required to file some sort of notice with NICS anytime they have a patient that exhibits behavior that is deemed dangerous for them to have a firearm. That's just my two cents and no one usually listens to the peons like me who have to deal with these people on a daily basis.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[quote=Lady Brave;298825]Unfortunately non US citizens do have the right to purchase firearms under federal law. The states can't override that. However, carry concealed permit holders must be citizens. There are two types of aliens - permanent residents and non-immigrants.

Permanent residents are subject to the same criminal background check as citizens, but they must also produce a valid permanent resident card, a valid state ID and 90 consecutive days proof of residency. I have never felt that aliens should have the right to purchase firearms. Especially non-immigrants since they are only in the country for short periods of time.

The thing people should be concerned most about with regards to our current gun laws is that people like me who issue permits to purchase can't ask someone if they've ever been treated for a "mental condition". I can only access records for those who have been formally committed, adjudicated incompetent, or deemed mentally defective. There are a lot of people out there who suffer from serious disorders who seek treatment on their own and they are never formally committed or found incompetent by a lawful authority. Those are the people who scare me the most and I can't do anything about it. In the past, we asked people about prior mental health histories, but I was told last week by our attorney that I couldn't do it anymore because it didn't meet the statutory requirements. I showed him numerous examples of people who suffered from schizophrenia, paranoia, delusions, bi-polar disorders, etc. and whose doctors recommended they not be given a firearm. He said he shared my concern, but they didn't qualify under the statute and he was bound by the law.

NICS can't get mental health records from some states as well because of their privacy laws. So all the crazies who want to purchase firearms at WalMart can usually do so. NICS is currently in litigation with those states because they are directly violating federal gun laws by not releasing the information. It is truly sad and it pisses me off to think that these people are getting firearms so easily. I think physicians should be required to file some sort of notice with NICS anytime they have a patient that exhibits behavior that is deemed dangerous for them to have a firearm. That's just my two cents and no one usually listens to the peons like me who have to deal with these people on a daily basis.[/quote]


Thank you, this was very informative.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

Great Post!
[QUOTE=Lady Brave;298825]Unfortunately non US citizens do have the right to purchase firearms under federal law. The states can't override that. However, carry concealed permit holders must be citizens. There are two types of aliens - permanent residents and non-immigrants.

Permanent residents are subject to the same criminal background check as citizens, but they must also produce a valid permanent resident card, a valid state ID and 90 consecutive days proof of residency. I have never felt that aliens should have the right to purchase firearms. Especially non-immigrants since they are only in the country for short periods of time.

The thing people should be concerned most about with regards to our current gun laws is that people like me who issue permits to purchase can't ask someone if they've ever been treated for a "mental condition". I can only access records for those who have been formally committed, adjudicated incompetent, or deemed mentally defective. There are a lot of people out there who suffer from serious disorders who seek treatment on their own and they are never formally committed or found incompetent by a lawful authority. Those are the people who scare me the most and I can't do anything about it. In the past, we asked people about prior mental health histories, but I was told last week by our attorney that I couldn't do it anymore because it didn't meet the statutory requirements. I showed him numerous examples of people who suffered from schizophrenia, paranoia, delusions, bi-polar disorders, etc. and whose doctors recommended they not be given a firearm. He said he shared my concern, but they didn't qualify under the statute and he was bound by the law.

NICS can't get mental health records from some states as well because of their privacy laws. So all the crazies who want to purchase firearms at WalMart can usually do so. NICS is currently in litigation with those states because they are directly violating federal gun laws by not releasing the information. It is truly sad and it pisses me off to think that these people are getting firearms so easily. I think physicians should be required to file some sort of notice with NICS anytime they have a patient that exhibits behavior that is deemed dangerous for them to have a firearm. That's just my two cents and no one usually listens to the peons like me who have to deal with these people on a daily basis.[/QUOTE]

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I will add this though. VA is a full POC (point of contact). Which means that they require all applicants to submit to a background check by the state for [U]all [/U]firearms transfers/purchases. It is much better for the state to conduct the background checks than relying on NICS. NICS is somewhat limited in their access to state court records. They rely on us to notify them of someone who has committed an offense at the state level which might qualify as a federal prohibitor.

If some states aren't notifying NICS of these offenses then there can be problems. For example, someone convicted of a domestic violence offense may slip through the cracks if the state didn't notify NICS of the conviction. So the applicant could travel to another state where they only perform a NICS check by the dealer calling the 1-800 number. If NICS has not been notified of the conviction then viola, the wife beater now has gun. If all the states contributed their records to NICS like they should be, then those convictions would be in the national database and I would be alerted to that person's record in another state and possibly be able to deny them.

How background checks are performed vary state to state and all the various laws between the feds and the states can drive you crazy. But we are doing the best we can.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

probably the most emotional i have gotten during this whole time is the story about the romanian-israeli professor who was a holocaust survivor. he was put into camp when he was just a kid and has already had to deal with so much in his life. his class heard the gunshots, so he barricaded the door with his desk to let his class escape from the windows 2 stories above. this man was 76 years old holding the barricade, and he died doing so to save their lives. RIP to him and all who died yesterday.

i attended the memorial, which brought everyone closer and helped to start the recovery process, i was about 10 rows back from the speakers which included president bush, governor kaine, and a very charismatic english professor who brought us to end the ceremony with us all chanting "lets go hokies" louder than ever. truely a special occasion and one i will never forget

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Did anyone notice that the Nationals wore VT hats tonight in their game vs. the Braves? Awesome. I'm not normally a Hokie fan, but I sure am right now.

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This has probably already been touched on, but I don't care. I don't feel like reading, I feel like venting.
Gun Control laws only work on those who abide by the law. So its hindering good citizens from obtaining weapons in a timely manner. As a consumer when I want something I want it now, not in a month or two. It is my constitutional right to bear arms damn it! Some people like their freedom of speech, freedom of religion, I like to own weapons. Does anyone have to wait in a line fill out forms and get their background checked If they want to say something, or if they want to go to church and pray? No, but I have to if I want to go hunting or I want something for home protection.

"Sir, why do you want to purchase this firearm?" Just in case some idiot decides to roll up in my house or office and tries to shoot me for no reason other than anger! I got a wife and 4 kids to look out for! That's why!

I know that that guy followed the laws and legally purchased his weapons. More laws were not going to stop him. He devised a plan, waited patiently, and then executed it. More gun control laws just mean that the next guy has to be a little more patient. Or he can just say the hell with it and purchase it illegally. The point is you are not going to stop a determined person from their goal especially if they don't give a damn.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

Giving lots of "consumers" guns is not a good idea. People who think this would have never happened if everyone walked around with guns isn't thinking about the other million problems that would cause.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[quote=Bushead;298909]Giving lots of "consumers" guns is not a good idea. People who think this would have never happened if everyone walked around with guns isn't thinking about the other million problems that would cause.[/quote]


Im one of millions of consumers who already have guns. I'll carry one more often given the recent days events. Its a tool. I personally believe the laws and requirements to qualify someone to carry a weapon at all should be tightened a bit... to ensure that armed people DO have some sense, but people who are able to shoulder some of the burden for public protection should be more encouraged to do so.

It is not the governments responsibility to be everywhere at all times, and they cannot be... and if they were we would not be a free nation anyway...

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[quote=Lady Brave;298825]Unfortunately non US citizens do have the right to purchase firearms under federal law. The states can't override that. However, carry concealed permit holders must be citizens. There are two types of aliens - permanent residents and non-immigrants.

Permanent residents are subject to the same criminal background check as citizens, but they must also produce a valid permanent resident card, a valid state ID and 90 consecutive days proof of residency. I have never felt that aliens should have the right to purchase firearms. Especially non-immigrants since they are only in the country for short periods of time.

The thing people should be concerned most about with regards to our current gun laws is that people like me who issue permits to purchase can't ask someone if they've ever been treated for a "mental condition". I can only access records for those who have been formally committed, adjudicated incompetent, or deemed mentally defective. There are a lot of people out there who suffer from serious disorders who seek treatment on their own and they are never formally committed or found incompetent by a lawful authority. Those are the people who scare me the most and I can't do anything about it. In the past, we asked people about prior mental health histories, but I was told last week by our attorney that I couldn't do it anymore because it didn't meet the statutory requirements. I showed him numerous examples of people who suffered from schizophrenia, paranoia, delusions, bi-polar disorders, etc. and whose doctors recommended they not be given a firearm. He said he shared my concern, but they didn't qualify under the statute and he was bound by the law.

NICS can't get mental health records from some states as well because of their privacy laws. So all the crazies who want to purchase firearms at WalMart can usually do so. NICS is currently in litigation with those states because they are directly violating federal gun laws by not releasing the information. It is truly sad and it pisses me off to think that these people are getting firearms so easily. I think physicians should be required to file some sort of notice with NICS anytime they have a patient that exhibits behavior that is deemed dangerous for them to have a firearm. That's just my two cents and no one usually listens to the peons like me who have to deal with these people on a daily basis.[/quote]
I don't think that its a federal law that non citzens can purchase guns its a state by state issue. No one can by a gun in NY so thats why I think its a sttate issue

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[quote=Redskins_P;298788]This kid was definitely twisted......click on the link below and you can see the plays he wrote...

[URL="http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/"]Cho Seung-Hui's Plays - News Bloggers[/URL][/quote]I'm sorry if you can call that creative writing and if this is what goes on in those classes it no wonder some kids turn out the way they do. I would have never even thought of turning in something like that to a teacher and for a college "Of Higher Learning?" to acept this crap as writing is total BS. I hear about all this liberal BS that our colleges except as art and its a wonder that things are not any worse than they are. It is just disrespectful to even turn something like that into to an adult and for a teacher of " So Called Higher Learning" its scary.

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[QUOTE=Big C;298883]probably the most emotional i have gotten during this whole time is the story about the romanian-israeli professor who was a holocaust survivor. he was put into camp when he was just a kid and has already had to deal with so much in his life. his class heard the gunshots, so he barricaded the door with his desk to let his class escape from the windows 2 stories above. this man was 76 years old holding the barricade, and he died doing so to save their lives. RIP to him and all who died yesterday.

i attended the memorial, which brought everyone closer and helped to start the recovery process, i was about 10 rows back from the speakers which included president bush, governor kaine, and a very charismatic english professor who brought us to end the ceremony with us all chanting "lets go hokies" louder than ever. truely a special occasion and one i will never forget[/QUOTE]

WORD. That was a truly noble and selfless act. He gave his life for others. Respect!

RIP to all the victims.

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No offense, but I don't think the plays are that deviant as people say it is. It's just a lot of cursing.

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[quote=canthetuna;298922]Im one of millions of consumers who already have guns. I'll carry one more often given the recent days events. Its a tool. I personally believe the laws and requirements to qualify someone to carry a weapon at all should be tightened a bit... to ensure that armed people DO have some sense, but people who are able to shoulder some of the burden for public protection should be more encouraged to do so.

It is not the governments responsibility to be everywhere at all times, and they cannot be... and if they were we would not be a free nation anyway...[/quote]

Could not agree more Tuna
and NICE post as well HESS

I am a life-time hunter, sportsman, shooter, (conquerer of small countries), etc, as several generations were in my family before me.
I would REALLY hate to see legal gun ownership go away in this country. That would make me an outlaw. I do not believe for a minute that would solve any of our problems with guns either.
HOWEVER, I would not have problem with a more thorough, reasonable, productive investigative process to weed out some problem children.
In reading Anrgy's......vent, one thing that make things simple when purchasing a firearm is the "right to carry permit". I have one, which came with a background check before they issued it. One of the things it affords me is the ability to purchase with NO waiting period. Naturally it cost a couple of hundred bucks to get there. This will not appeal so some for that reason. If the Fed could get behind some type of universal program with the states of this type. This might go along way to solving some of the obvious probs and placate the sporting community as well.
It would have to be a REAL departure for the Fed to adopt a USEFUL plan that is not all window dressing, like the assault weapons ban. This was completely useless and purely a political move.

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[quote]probably the most emotional i have gotten during this whole time is the story about the romanian-israeli professor who was a holocaust survivor. he was put into camp when he was just a kid and has already had to deal with so much in his life. his class heard the gunshots, so he barricaded the door with his desk to let his class escape from the windows 2 stories above. this man was 76 years old holding the barricade, and he died doing so to save their lives. RIP to him and all who died yesterday.

i attended the memorial, which brought everyone closer and helped to start the recovery process, i was about 10 rows back from the speakers which included president bush, governor kaine, and a very charismatic english professor who brought us to end the ceremony with us all chanting "lets go hokies" louder than ever. truely a special occasion and one i will never forget[/quote]
Wow. The true epitome of hero!

[quote]It is my constitutional right to bear arms damn it! Some people like their freedom of speech, freedom of religion, I like to own weapons. Does anyone have to wait in a line fill out forms and get their background checked If they want to say something, or if they want to go to church and pray? No, but I have to if I want to go hunting or I want something for home protection.[/quote]
First of all, let's put that whole constitutional right into perspective. This was written when you could be walking down the road and be attacked by a bear. When there were no police services, and most people needed a gun in order to eat. This is no longer the case. We don't need guns anymore. While I think the whole "gun in the home" thing is overblown. More kids die because of swimming pools than because of guns. However, there needs to be gun control.

When I was 17, a bunch of my friends and I got drunk. We decided hey, let's shoot those clay things you toss in the air (can't remember their names), so we drive to Wal-Mart, buy two guns, ammo, and a shooter for those clay things. I was 17, and within 45 minutes we had two firearms, a ton of ammunition, and we were drunk.

They need to lock down gun laws a bit, because most people don't need guns. Especially hand guns. They just aren't necessary. I can definitely see hunting rifles, etc. However, I'm not sneaking a hunting rifle anywhere.

There's nothing that can be done to stop people like the guy who shot up VT. It's just impossible, if they want to attack someone, guns are easy enough to find, and even easier to obtain with a little money. People like this, unfortunately, will always be very difficult to stop.

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[quote=Bushead;298965]No offense, but I don't think the plays are that deviant as people say it is. It's just a lot of cursing.[/quote]Ok, maybe that's one of the problems that you can look at this and just think its a lot of cursing. So, that's what HIGHER LEARNING is now days. May I ask your age?

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I don't think anyone said they were "good" plays. I graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Fine Arts and took some of these liberal classes you're talking about and I have to say that there were some people who did stupid crap purely for shock value, similar to this kid's plays.

For ALL, not most, not some, but ALL of my professors took this type of stuff and thoroughly scoffed at it. Anyone can write something that's a metaphor for something else. It's all in the thought process, in the meaning behind it that makes it something creative and worthwhile. Basically, change the names in his pieces of crap, and it's nothing but a stupid story his twisted mind came up with.

In my classes, I've also seen plenty of artwork involving cursing, nudity and more that were actually very moving pieces of art.

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With all due respect Daseal, the opinion of many of the second amendment is the right to "keep and bear arms" provides for:
feed ones self
protect the homestead
stand against a tyrannical government
etc.

As I stated in my other post, I would have no problem with some revision of the current laws, IF it really accomplish's something productive, and not viewed as another way to disarm the public. I think many (though not all) would share this view.

Re: Updated:At Least 33 Dead in Va. Tech Shooting
 

[quote=firstdown;298954]I don't think that its a federal law that non citzens can purchase guns its a state by state issue. No one can by a gun in NY so thats why I think its a sttate issue[/quote]
Sorry, but that's incorrect. 18 USC 922 (g) 1-9 & (n) allows for aliens to purchase firearms. NY has different levels of permits and they do allow non-citizens to purchase. At minimum, the each state must require the applicant to provide proof of residency within the federal requirements. If the states choose to have an alien comply with additional restrictions, then they have that option, but they can't be less restrictive than the feds. We're taking about purchasing firearms here. It the concealed permit laws that prohibit non-citizens from carrying.