Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;330242]Just to clarify, I'm not talking about weapons classified as antiques, relics or curios. Those weapons are not subject to the gun control or brady act.[/QUOTE]

But they became antiques from people not using them and letting them collect dust on a shelf. There are guns being made today that will be antiques, but you would not want to allow someone to store them.

FYI- I am for having as many guns as you want...but I am not for semi-automatic weapons or AK-47's and the like. There is no need for those in hunting. A good way for gun control activists to get rid of those is to try to pass a law that will make it illegal to use those types of weapons when hunting. Once that is passed, how can someone argue that they "need" it?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jsarno;330243]Alright...since we obviously can't fix the local jails, how about more state institutions? They are overcrowded too.[/quote]
I'm all for more state prisons. Another thing we need is more mental health facilities. A good portion of the inmate population consists of individuals that need treatment for mental health problems. A psych doctor stopping by the facility a few times a week doesn't cut it.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=Lady Brave;330150]It is funny. Kinda weird, but funny. :)[/quote]



that was hilarious...it reminds me of all the smack i talk and the flack i get for it at work.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;330247]I'm all for more state prisons. Another thing we need is more mental health facilities. A good portion of the inmate population consists of individuals that need treatment for mental health problems. A psych doctor stopping by the facility a few times a week doesn't cut it.[/QUOTE]

I'll take your word for that, cause I would guess there are a lot that are "faking it". If they had a lawyer worth their salt, they would have argued insanity.
I think the country needs more capital punishment. I also think we could use more public hangings in town squares. Show people the consequences to actions. There is a reason those countries that cut off hands when you steal have low theft rates.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jsarno;330254]I'll take your word for that, cause I would guess there are a lot that are "faking it". If they had a lawyer worth their salt, they would have argued insanity.
I think the country needs more [B]corporal punishment[/B]. I also think we could use more public hangings in town squares. Show people the consequences to actions. There is a reason those countries that cut off hands when you steal have low theft rates.[/quote]
Corporal punishment? You want us to spank them too? LOL, I'm just messing with you.

I don't have a problem with capital punishment. I do have a problem with the amount of time it takes for the appeals process. Around here, you're gonna sit on death row at least 10-15 years.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Lady Brave;330260]Corporal punishment? You want us to spank them too? LOL, I'm just messing with you. [/quote]

Ummm, I don't know what you're talking about, it says capital punishment in my last post. LOL.
I didn't even notice I did that until you said it.

[quote]I don't have a problem with capital punishment. I do have a problem with the amount of time it takes for the appeals process. Around here, you're gonna sit on death row at least 10-15 years.[/QUOTE]

I agree. That is beyond moronic that we the tax payers spend all that money to keep them alive. If they are convicted, they should be on death row no longer than 1 year.
I say not longer than 2 months to get their affairs in order.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330265]I agree. That is beyond moronic that we the tax payers spend all that money to keep them alive. If they are convicted, they should be on death row no longer than 1 year.
I say not longer than 2 months to get their affairs in order.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't against capital punishment until I did a report on it a few years ago and found out that it's not a deterrent. If it won't keep more people from dying, then what is the point? Revenge? That's a pretty useless reason for the government to kill someone. I just don't see the point in it. I do think there are people who do things that deserve to have them killed, I would have killed Saddam and I would kill Usama if given the chance, but they have committed far more atrocity than most people on death row.

Now, what people will misunderstand (and probably try to imply) is that, in no way, am I saying we should be softer on crime. However, if capital punishment is not a deterrent, what is the point? Plus, capital punishment is ridiculously expensive, the following is from a Duke University study:

[QUOTE]The death penalty costs North Carolina $2.16 million per execution over the costs of a non-death penalty murder case with a sentence of imprisonment for life.[/QUOTE]

So, it costs more and doesn't deter crimes. What is the advantage again?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=itvnetop;330182]People may say that, but they never vote on initiatives that would benefit education (especially here in CA). Anything related to education that would raise taxes gets shot down pretty quickly. I wish it were different... if we could spend more money on education, i think the trickle-down effect on a bunch of other problems would be positive.[/quote]
This country allready spends over 10 grand a year on each child per year and see what we get. I sent my daughter to a private school for less than that and she only had about 20 kids in each class and received a much better education. Just spending more money on something thats not working does not correct the problem.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;330398]I wasn't against capital punishment until I did a report on it a few years ago and found out that it's not a deterrent. If it won't keep more people from dying, then what is the point? Revenge? That's a pretty useless reason for the government to kill someone. I just don't see the point in it. I do think there are people who do things that deserve to have them killed, I would have killed Saddam and I would kill Usama if given the chance, but they have committed far more atrocity than most people on death row.

Now, what people will misunderstand (and probably try to imply) is that, in no way, am I saying we should be softer on crime. However, if capital punishment is not a deterrent, what is the point? Plus, capital punishment is ridiculously expensive, the following is from a Duke University study:



So, it costs more and doesn't deter crimes. What is the advantage again?[/QUOTE]

While at it's current rate, I can understand your point. However, we're talking about the scum of the scum. So if it costs 2+ mil after 10-15 years on death row, what would it cost if the man or woman after 40 or 50 years. Obviously they are too dangerous to let out, so they will be in prison for life and we're paying for that.
Also, like I said, we need to execute them right away, but even at the current way of doing this, he should still be executed. 1- he did something so vile that he deserves death, 2- justification for the vitims family, 3- they are a leech on society, and don't deserve the life they get in prison. What is the reason for keeping him alive? If death isn't a deterant, then keeping him in prison is not a deterant either.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330254]I also think we could use more public hangings in town squares. Show people the consequences to actions. There is a reason those countries that cut off hands when you steal have low theft rates.[/QUOTE]

Wow, so you think the Saudi justice system is one to be emulated?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jdlea;330398]I wasn't against capital punishment until I did a report on it a few years ago and found out that it's not a deterrent. If it won't keep more people from dying, then what is the point? Revenge? That's a pretty useless reason for the government to kill someone. I just don't see the point in it. I do think there are people who do things that deserve to have them killed, I would have killed Saddam and I would kill Usama if given the chance, but they have committed far more atrocity than most people on death row.

Now, what people will misunderstand (and probably try to imply) is that, in no way, am I saying we should be softer on crime. However, if capital punishment is not a deterrent, what is the point? Plus, capital punishment is ridiculously expensive, the following is from a Duke University study:



So, it costs more and doesn't deter crimes. What is the advantage again?[/quote]


I would be interested to know what the determination is as to the lack of a "deterrent". One thing for sure the person executed will not commit another heinous crime. It would also be very interesting to see what the cost breakdown on the 2+ mil is?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330477]While at it's current rate, I can understand your point. However, we're talking about the scum of the scum. So if it costs 2+ mil after 10-15 years on death row, what would it cost if the man or woman after 40 or 50 years. Obviously they are too dangerous to let out, so they will be in prison for life and we're paying for that.
Also, like I said, we need to execute them right away, but even at the current way of doing this, he should still be executed. [B]1- he did something so vile that he deserves death, 2- justification for the vitims family, 3- they are a leech on society, and don't deserve the life they get in prison[/B]. What is the reason for keeping him alive? If death isn't a deterant, then keeping him in prison is not a deterant either.[/QUOTE]

I think those are dangerous reasons; I don't believe that the government should be in the business of sponsoring revenge, personally. I can certainly understand your argument and your point, but I don't know that that is something the government should be doing.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;330486]I would be interested to know what the determination is as to the lack of a "deterrent". One thing for sure the person executed will not commit another heinous crime. It would also be very interesting to see what the cost breakdown on the 2+ mil is?[/QUOTE]

I did a case study that focused on states who have the death penalty vs. a state that borders it and does not. There was a lower percentage of murders in the bordering states who did not have the death penalty. However, most of the states who had the death penalty had the larger cities (I don't remember all of them and won't look them up). There was an exception to that rule, though, Massachusetts, who has the death penalty had a lower murder rate than a neighboring, much smaller state.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330477]However, we're talking about the scum of the scum. So if it costs 2+ mil after 10-15 years on death row, what would it cost if the man or woman after 40 or 50 years. Obviously they are too dangerous to let out, so they will be in prison for life and we're paying for that.[/QUOTE]

I used to be all for the death penalty. But then it occured to me that it's actually the easier way out. All they feel is the slight pinch of a needle, and they gently fall off to sleep. To me, it would seem more of a punishment to know that you'll be in a cage for the rest of your days.

Now, as to the financial burden of incarcerating someone for life? Too bad. That's a legitimate function of government and it's one of the costs of maintaining a civilized society to put away the people who infringe on individual rights. It's no different than having to pay up for the costs of the military or building roads.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;330213]You missed the point. I am not going to bother trying to argue with you, because you took it to a whole new extreme.[/QUOTE]

No, I got your point and then used the rhetorical tool of hyperbole to demonstrate the absurdity of it if carried to its logical extreme.

I understand your point - You have a right to carry guns. My point is that the public has the right to regulate inherently dangerous things such as guns.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;330482]Wow, so you think the Saudi justice system is one to be emulated?[/QUOTE]


Did I say that?
Nothing like taking a post out of context eh?

ps- we used to have public hangings here in the good ole USA.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;330489]I think those are dangerous reasons; I don't believe that the government should be in the business of sponsoring revenge, personally. I can certainly understand your argument and your point, but I don't know that that is something the government should be doing.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough.
I just feel we as a society has gotten waaaay too lax on our punishment, and it's time to make criminals fear their evil ways.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330523]Fair enough.
I just feel we as a society has gotten waaaay too lax on our punishment, and it's time to make criminals fear their evil ways.[/QUOTE]

See, I have conflicting opinions. Because if a person (say Jim so it's more clear). Jim kills Mike's family member. If Mike goes out and kills Jim, I don't really feel sorry for Jim and am not outraged by it in anyway. I do, however, take issue with government putting people to death. I know that I should not advocate people taking the law into their own hands, but that's how I feel on that subject. (Keep in mind, I said I had conflicting ideas.)

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;330531]See, I have conflicting opinions. Because if a person (say Jim so it's more clear). Jim kills Mike's family member. If Mike goes out and kills Jim, I don't really feel sorry for Jim and am not outraged by it in anyway. I do, however, take issue with government putting people to death. I know that I should not advocate people taking the law into their own hands, but that's how I fee on that subject. (Keep in mind, I said I had conflicting ideas.)[/QUOTE]

I understand.
I have felt for a long long time, that for instance if a woman gets raped and or killed, that woman's immediate family should be allowed to enter a room with the raper / killer and have their way with him. Anything goes, and if they come out of the room and he's dead, then so be it. That's justice.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jdlea;330492]I did a case study that focused on states who have the death penalty vs. a state that borders it and does not. There was a lower percentage of murders in the bordering states who did not have the death penalty. However, most of the states who had the death penalty had the larger cities (I don't remember all of them and won't look them up). There was an exception to that rule, though, Massachusetts, who has the death penalty had a lower murder rate than a neighboring, much smaller state.[/quote]
Do you remember if you did any compare on apple to apples like comparison? Such as NY and Cal (but they don't have the DP, I don't think)??

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;330558]Do you remember if you did any compare on apple to apples like comparison? Such as NY and Cal (but they don't have the DP, I don't think)??[/QUOTE]

It would be hard to compare any states, they are all so different and have vastly different inhabitants.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;330558]Do you remember if you did any compare on apple to apples like comparison? Such as NY and Cal (but they don't have the DP, I don't think)??[/QUOTE]

I don't believe I did.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jsarno;330562]It would be hard to compare any states, they are all so different and have vastly different inhabitants.[/quote]

I was basically looking at Megaopolis v. Megaopolis. Like L.A. v. NYC

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;330569]I was basically looking at Megaopolis v. Megaopolis. Like L.A. v. NYC[/QUOTE]

Wow, that would be even harder cause it's the state that executes, not the city. I wonder if they even have those kinds of stats?

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Hog1;330569]I was basically looking at Megaopolis v. Megaopolis. Like L.A. v. NYC[/QUOTE]

I would be very interested in those stats too though.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330522]Did I say that?
Nothing like taking a post out of context eh?

ps- we used to have public hangings here in the good ole USA.[/QUOTE]

My only point was that we shouldn't emulate countries that cut the hands off of low-level criminals. I also simply cannot agree with the whole public hangings deal.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;330611]My only point was that we shouldn't emulate countries that cut the hands off of low-level criminals. I also simply cannot agree with the whole public hangings deal.[/QUOTE]

That's cool...I understand if you can't agree.
I just feel we need to do something about all these issues, and it seems crimes are getting worse / more frequent.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330690]That's cool...I understand if you can't agree.
I just feel we need to do something about all these issues, and it seems crimes are getting worse / more frequent.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Sex offenders in particular need [I]much[/I] harsher sentences. I'm so tired of reading articles in my newspaper about sex offenders with 2 or 3 priors who raped and/or murdered some girl. I'd actually be for lopping off manhoods for certain sex crimes. See....we have some common ground.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;330691]Yeah. Sex offenders in particular need [I]much[/I] harsher sentences. I'm so tired of reading articles in my newspaper about sex offenders with 2 or 3 priors who raped and/or murdered some girl. I'd actually be for lopping off manhoods for certain sex crimes. See....we have some common ground.[/QUOTE]

LOL...then you must have liked my comment about allowing the victims family to go into a room with the guy and no rules apply, they carry out their own justice. If the man comes out dead, then so be it.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330695]LOL...then you must have liked my comment about allowing the victims family to go into a room with the guy and no rules apply, they carry out their own justice. If the man comes out dead, then so be it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree 110%. People may say that taking someones life will not justify what that person has done, bullshit...
I have a son (7) and two girls (1) & (3) and I know for a fact that I would want nothing more than to kill anyone that would hurt my children like that. PERIOD!!!

About 6 months ago a guy, who only lives down the street from me, was convicted of over 52 sex acts commitied to a 6 year old boy. In my own personal opinion that man should not be alowed to live anymore. That grown man may not have murdered the boy but he just might as well have. I am sure when you are that young and something that dramatic happens to you, it will f*ck your head up...

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;330697]Yes, I agree 110%. People may say that taking someones life will not justify what that person has done, bullshit...
I have a son (7) and two girls (1) & (3) and I know for a fact that I would want nothing more than to kill anyone that would hurt my children like that. PERIOD!!!

About 6 months ago a guy, who only lives down the street from me, was convicted of over 52 sex acts commitied to a 6 year old boy. In my own personal opinion that man should not be alowed to live anymore. That grown man may not have murdered the boy but he just might as well have. I am sure when you are that young and something that dramatic happens to you, it will f*ck your head up...[/QUOTE]

Absolutely...that kid will be messed up for life now. His whole family should be allowed to go into a room with this guy for a few hours, and pull toe nails, cut off wiener...whatever they want. If we had that kind of judicial system, then these crazy sick acts might not take place as frequently.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

That is also why I am glad that the second admendment holds true today. Like I said the guy only lived minutes away from my house. I don't know if he would come into my house and try to get one of my children but knowing that if anyone would try, I am alowed to have a form of defense to protect my family...

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=Redskins8588;330704]That is also why I am glad that the second admendment holds true today. Like I said the guy only lived minutes away from my house. I don't know if he would come into my house and try to get one of my children but knowing that if anyone would try, I am alowed to have a form of defense to protect my family...[/QUOTE]

In New Mexico, you are legally allowed to kill a man that intrudes in your house. If you put a bullet in his spine, he can sue, so you need to kill him if you pull the trigger. I like that law.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;330512]No, I got your point and then used the rhetorical tool of hyperbole to demonstrate the absurdity of it if carried to its logical extreme.

I understand your point - You have a right to carry guns. My point is that the public has the right to regulate inherently dangerous things such as guns.[/quote]

What your are failing to realize is that when you regulate guns you are only regulating the Law obiding citizens. If I guy wants to use a gun [B]against[/B] the [B]law[/B], then a [B]Reulation [/B]or a [B]Law[/B] is certainly not going to stop him. All your gun laws do is hinder me "the honest law obiding buyer" from attaining one.

Bye the way you are not the only one with children. I would never be packing anywhere near where children are playing. Will I cary one with me in downtown D.C. You are dog on right I will.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jsarno;330705]In New Mexico, you are legally allowed to kill a man that intrudes in your house. If you put a bullet in his spine, he can sue, so you need to kill him if you pull the trigger. I like that law.[/QUOTE]

If anything ever escalated to a point where I were going to pull out a gun, the only way that person would leave would be in a body bag...especially if it was in my home. There won't be any chance for retaliation. If/when I buy a gun, it will be kept in my home and if my home is ever invaded and I feel I need to get my gun, it's probably going to have to be me or them. No chance I wave around a gun with no intention of using after you've broken into my home...none.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=jdlea;330745]If anything ever escalated to a point where I were going to pull out a gun, the only way that person would leave would be in a body bag...especially if it was in my home. There won't be any chance for retaliation. If/when I buy a gun, it will be kept in my home and if my home is ever invaded and I feel I need to get my gun, it's probably going to have to be me or them. No chance I wave around a gun with no intention of using after you've broken into my home...none.[/QUOTE]


That's the way i feel it should be.
If someone is dumb enough to try to break in to your home, they are taking a huge chance with their life. I'll shoot first and ask questions later.

A few years back, my wife and I heard some rustling in the back yard, we peeked out the blinds and saw a man back there. I grabbed the gun and went to the back door and hid behind the wall. My wife called the cops. He was messing with the nob and trying to jimmy it. He must have heard the sirens (and the cops were VERY fast), and he ran off...he likely has no idea how close he came to death.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;330707]What your are failing to realize is that when you regulate guns you are only regulating the Law obiding citizens. If I guy wants to use a gun [B]against[/B] the [B]law[/B], then a [B]Reulation [/B]or a [B]Law[/B] is certainly not going to stop him. All your gun laws do is hinder me "the honest law obiding buyer" from attaining one.

Bye the way you are not the only one with children. I would never be packing anywhere near where children are playing. Will I cary one with me in downtown D.C. You are dog on right I will.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that those that are againts guns care angry. While the regular, law abiding, gun carrying citizens understand this, they don't cause they are just against guns. They feel that the fewer guns the better.
I know and you know that's not how it will work, but they don't. We've made similar comments a ton of times, yet they are still not listening.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[QUOTE=angryssg;330707][B]What your are failing to realize [/B]is that when you regulate guns you are only regulating the Law obiding citizens. If I guy wants to use a gun [B]against[/B] the [B]law[/B], then a [B]Reulation [/B]or a [B]Law[/B] is certainly not going to stop him. All your gun laws do is hinder me "the honest law obiding buyer" from attaining one.

Bye the way you are not the only one with children. I would never be packing anywhere near where children are playing. Will I cary one with me in downtown D.C. You are dog on right I will.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=jsarno;330822]I don't think that those that are againts guns care angry. While the regular, law abiding, gun carrying citizens understand this, they don't cause they are just against guns. They feel that the fewer guns the better.
I know and you know that's not how it will work, but they don't. We've made similar comments a ton of times, yet they are still not listening.[/QUOTE]

Preliminarily, this is mostly just a restatement of the 1000 posts that gone on before and so I am just summarizing previously made arguments.

FIRST: I believe it is unconstitutional to completely ban the personal ownership of guns and, quite frankly, I do not advocate that position. There is an important public interest in preventing a government from having an absolute monopoly on the use of force. Preventing such a monopoly was the crux of and the intent behind the Second Amendment's guarrantee of the individual right to own guns.

SECOND: I don't "fail" to realize anything about your assertion AngrySS. In fact, I agree that regulating guns only affects those who follow regulations. I am okay with this BECAUSE:
- As I argued earlier, those who will illegally own a gun are not necessarily going to be deterred by the possibility of you carrying a concealed weapon; and, thus,
- Carrying a concealed weapon in public does not necessarily increase ur personal safety; but
- A proliferation of concealed weapons in public places, IMO, does create a greater risk to the public.
- Balancing the public's right to safety against your personal right to own a gun requires a balancing process and the regulation of who can own guns, how many they can own, and where they can carry them is both appropriate and well within the the constitutional guidelines set up bythe second amendment.

I and others have said all this before and, at this point, if you can't agree that the public at large has a right to reasonably regulate the availability and ownership of guns and to place restrictions on where they may carried, then we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.
- The 2A DOES NOT guarrantee you the unfettered right to own an arsenal and to go armed anywhere you want.
- As to gun ownership, there is a public interest which must be balanced against any private right you have.
- And, (this one is my personal opinion) while fewer guns may not necessarily make us individually safer, a proliferation of weaponry is not guarantee to greater public safety. Again, [I]IMO[/I] - a proliferation of weaponry is more likely to decrease public safety than to increase it.

And with that - I will refer you back to my previous posts 'cause I think I am now just pretty much rehashing what has already been said about dozen times and about a dozen different ways.

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

joe, i agree with you. nice post

Re: Ted Nugent on Gun Control
 

[quote=jdlea;330745]If anything ever escalated to a point where I were going to pull out a gun, the only way that person would leave would be in a body bag...especially if it was in my home. There won't be any chance for retaliation. If/when I buy a gun, it will be kept in my home and if my home is ever invaded and I feel I need to get my gun, it's probably going to have to be me or them. No chance I wave around a gun with no intention of using after you've broken into my home...none.[/quote]
If you buy a gun get a pump shot gun. That distenct sound of pumping a shell into the chamber is enough to make most theives run for there life.