Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;603802]I'm not even going to say ruined. Most were probably camp bodies, but the Skins have had a glaring WR problem and all we can bring in is camp bodies? I have to imagine Hixon had some say in to who the team was going to bring in. One would think they would have gone to him and said "hey take a look at this kid and see if you think you can develope him" or "we are looking at this kid what do you think"? I find it hard to believe that Cerrato or whoever is saying "Oh, we need to get another WR, lets just pick this guy up and see what Hixon can do with him." "We need more camp bodies so our regular players won't get hurt in preseason", "lets just keep our revolving door of WR's going and pick up this idget and see what he's got".

Now we have two supposedly talented WR's and possibly a third and we still can't get anything out of them so I guess we must have taken them way too high in the draft cause they are camp fodder also.[/quote]

Bro you don't have to defend your position: Hixon has the worst resume of any person I've ever heard in that he can't name one success in his professional career.

The whole point is that other teams develop WR talent every few years...the good franchises do it regularly. Look at what the Gmen have done w/ a handful of WRs that few heard of and people around here ripped on. Hixon and the Skins HAVEN'T DEVELOPED A WR IN 5+ YEARS...that should be enough to make any fans blood boil unless they're on a heavy dose of prozac lol.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

It's hard for guys like Hixon, or any coach to get something out of players when they just aren't capable of producing.

Moss, Randle El, and James Thrash were the main receivers here for the last 4 years or so. Kelly, Thomas, and Mitchell are young and inexperienced.

Is it out of the question to think that the receivers we have just aren't very good? And there isn't a coach out there who would make any difference?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=The Goat;604434]Bro you don't have to defend your position: Hixon has the worst resume of any person I've ever heard in that he can't name one success in his professional career.

The whole point is that other teams develop WR talent every few years...the good franchises do it regularly. Look at what the Gmen have done w/ a handful of WRs that few heard of and people around here ripped on. Hixon and the Skins HAVEN'T DEVELOPED A WR IN 5+ YEARS...that should be enough to make any fans blood boil unless they're on a heavy dose of prozac lol.[/quote]

Not to defend Hixon, but...
The Giants, Pats (pre Moss), Seahawks etc have also been able to get more wide receiver production because of superior o-line talent and very good QB play. It is also possible that we have overvalued are young wr talent, although I gotta believe (hope?) one will make big steps soon.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;604438]It's hard for guys like Hixon, or any coach to get something out of players when they just aren't capable of producing.

Moss, Randle El, and James Thrash were the main receivers here for the last 4 years or so. Kelly, Thomas, and Mitchell are young and inexperienced.

Is it out of the question to think that the receivers we have just aren't very good? And there isn't a coach out there who would make any difference?[/quote]

Even the most terrible receivers should be capable of catching a couple of passes a game. The fact that everyone on this board had as many catches as Kelly and ARE combined last week points to a much bigger problem than lack of talent at the WR position. And O line is fine. Campbell has only been sacked 8 times all year, ranking near the bottom of all starting QBs.

That leaves coaching and QB play, both of which have looked abysmal.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=The Goat;604434]Bro you don't have to defend your position: Hixon has the worst resume of any person I've ever heard in that he can't name one success in his professional career.

The whole point is that other teams develop WR talent every few years...the good franchises do it regularly. Look at what the Gmen have done w/ a handful of WRs that few heard of and people around here ripped on. Hixon and the Skins HAVEN'T DEVELOPED A WR IN 5+ YEARS...that should be enough to make any fans blood boil unless they're on a heavy dose of prozac lol.[/quote]

Good QBs = good WRs. It was foolish to think Eli was going to put up Campbell-esque numbers just because Plax went to the clink.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

thomas and kelly suck, period. there are no more f'n excuses for these chumps. they have the talent but NO balls or desire to grow balls. to hell with both of em. i hope they are cut in ther off season, along with zorn and the whole f'n staff. thank you and good night.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[B]#1)[/B] Matty asked for some names out of that list I gave earlier....McCardell is one and Pinkston is another who were with us and went on to do better elsewhere. Maybe it's ony two but why couldn't Hixon do something with them.

[B]#2)[/B] Smoot, My first sentence that sounds off the wall is cause someone else said "maybe these WR's get brought in and Hixon does nothing with them and pick up bad habits which hurts them in the long run when they go elsewhere. I just said it way differently.

[B]#3)[/B] If people would read the whole thread they would understand that I said "we have more problems then just the WR Coach". This thread started out about Kelly/Thomas and some were saying they most likely are busts, I was pointing out that I think there's more to that then another set of busts that have came and went. I like Kelly/Thomas/Mitchell, I just think they are not getting coached up or developed.

[B]#4) [/B]As stated in #3 we have more problems then just WR but...it seems like everyone has their opinion as to what the "one thing" is that is wrong with the Skins. I thin it's more then just "one thing". It would be a luxoury to fix the O-line, I agree we should be starting in the trenches, especially if we get into rebuild mode, but honestly how much protection time do you all expect JC to have? How much do you want to give him? All QB's know they have between 3-7 seconds to get rid of the ball and the second hand usually is closer to 3 seconds. 5 or more seconds is a lifetime...just listen to announcers who say "wow, he had all day to throw."

Basically, the WR's need to learn how to get open (like all the other rookies out their), run good routes, and actually go attack the ball not wait for it to show up. JC needs to get rid of the ball sooner. The O-line needs to get better at run blocking or change their scheme. I'm not sure if they are better at the man-to-man or Zone blocking at this point. Portis....what can I say about him, He came her ...gained weight to be the hard hitting running back after coming from Denver as a shifty speed back, then after yrs he decides he wants to lose weight to try and be the speedy back again when Zorn arrived. This yr he looks weak. No pun intended but he looks like losing the weight is tiring him out faster and he does not have the weight behind him to slam into the holes running over LB's. It's no co-incidence that he has not had a 100 yrd game in a while. I like him a lot but maybe he should have kept the weight on and allowed someone else to be the speedy back.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;604458][B]#1)[/B] Matty asked for some names out of that list I gave earlier....[B]McCardell is one and Pinkston is another who were with us and went on to do better elsewhere. [/B]Maybe it's ony two but why couldn't Hixon do something with them.[/quote]

I think you're mistaken here

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;604458][B]#1)[/B] Matty asked for some names out of that list I gave earlier....McCardell is one and Pinkston is another who were with us and went on to do better elsewhere. Maybe it's ony two but why couldn't Hixon do something with them.[/quote]

McCardell the first time around I'll give you, but that was long before Hixon. So really it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Pinkston? He signed here in 2007 but never made the roster and has since retired.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604492]McCardell the first time around I'll give you, but that was long before Hixon. So really it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Pinkston? He signed here in 2007 but never made the roster and has since retired.[/quote]

thanks for clarifying his status.

I can't believe someone wants to actually claim pinkston as ever being a skin. It was a dark day when he signed. He'll always be best remembered by us for short arming a ball when the late ST was bearing down on him.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=freddyg12;604504]thanks for clarifying his status.

I can't believe someone wants to actually claim pinkston as ever being a skin. It was a dark day when he signed.[B] He'll always be best remembered by us for short arming a ball when the late ST was bearing down on him[/B].[/quote]

He got alligator arms real quick when he saw ST. :laughing2 That just shows the impact ST had on the field. A lot of receivers wanted no part of the ball when ST was around. I couldn't believe we signed Pinkston either. :doh:

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I thought it was Ryan Clark more than ST on that play...either way Pinkston is arguably one of the weaker (if not the weakest) example of Hixon not developing receivers

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

It is a conbination of many things , coaching , learning ANOTHER system , Qb , young WR's < Kelly hurt 08 > and OL . If Hixon were the wr's coach in N.O./N.E. or IND. I bet they would have the same results . If Manning /Brady/Brees or Marino < in his prime > were our Qb , MK and DT would at least make some plays < no knock on JC > , there are only a few Marino/Montana's in a 10 year period . I would consider replacing Hixon as he is the wr coach at years end .

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=budw38;604534]It is a conbination of many things , coaching , learning ANOTHER system , Qb , young WR's < Kelly hurt 08 > and OL . If Hixon were the wr's coach in N.O./N.E. or IND. I bet they would have the same results . If Manning /Brady/Brees or Marino < in his prime > were our Qb , MK and DT would at least make some plays < no knock on JC > , there are only a few Marino/Montana's in a 10 year period . I would consider replacing Hixon as he is the wr coach at years end .[/quote]


I've often wondered what the production level of both Thomas & Kelly would be like on a team that didn't have Moss, Cooley and ARE. Zorn has handled the two players like a child does an abundance of toys under the tree on Christmas morning. He/She opens one, pays with it a little and quickly discards it for another. Consider it like having too many tools in the shed and not knowing which one's to use at the proper time to bring about the desired result.

On Stan Hixon as a WR coach I've always had questions. When Joe Gibbs decided to return to the team I was hoping he would name Charlie Taylor his WR coach. Our receivers had some of their greatest success under his tutelage, I felt at the time he would have been an excellent choice for the position, and still do despite the fact he didn't play in what is refered to as a WC system.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604492]McCardell the first time around I'll give you, but that was long before Hixon. So really it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Pinkston? He signed here in 2007 but never made the roster and has since retired.[/quote]

and I did put the little warning in my first post that I pulled the info from the Redskins transaction page so I may have gone to far down the list. So I do apologize.

Still we have had a revolving door at Redskins park since Gibbs left the first time. Even Norv had a hard time finding a half decent WR. Yet other teams....ie; the Giants this yr, Eagles last yr, and the few that took WR's as 1st or 2nd round players have done better then we have. I know most of ours were 7th rounders or non drafted players but we can't even teach them to perform a 5 yrd out? 10 yrd curl? a 20 yrd come back? Not a one?

It either leans toward the lack of talent our scouts have a picking players or it leans toward Hixon for even entertaining the thought of bringing them in. He should have just said " If this is what your bringing to me then don't bring in any at all pick O-lineman." but you can't tell me he has no say in who the team brings in at the WR position. He's the position coach, he would know what he can work with or can't work with simply by studying film of these players. Yet they came.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I guess someone finally wrote an article about our 3 2nd rounders.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/08/AR2009100804038.html]washingtonpost.com[/url]

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;603967]I wonder how you feel about our overall ability to evaluate talent. I mean, obviously our scouts can't evaluate receivers. We have drafted and brought in bum after bum after bum, touted them all off-season as excellent workers, and then bam they all are bums. So does that translate all through out in your opinion, or is it only in receivers that we bring in bum after bum. Certainly I think our pro and college scouts are very effective at bringing good players in.

If I re-phrase the question to say "what part of our program for receivers keeps us from putting 3 quality starters on the field? " is that a better question? Are we scouting poor prospects? Are the players just worthless once they get here? Is Danny not investing enough in bringing in quality guys? Maybe there just aren't enough talented rookies in the draft for us to get the ones our scouting department really wants?

Any way I break it down, I see Hixon as replaceable. I can't believe we would do any worse, but we could do a whole lot better.[/quote]

An excellent, excellent post sir! You get to the ultimate crux of it: either the talent evaluators in our organization who search out WRs are horrible OR Hixon is horrible. I completely agree it's extremely important to get to the bottom of it; however, I suspect that won't happen here. For one thing we'll constantly have devil's advocates defending the talent evaluators, Hixon, or both LOL.

Personally though, I tend to think the answer is simply both. Talent evaluation/FO decision-making isn't terribly impressive AND Hixon is utterly incompetent.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;604353][url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/kelly-reveals-thumb-injury.html]Redskins Insider - Kelly Reveals Thumb Injury[/url][/quote]

Does that thumb injury prevent him from getting seperation from DB's?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;604863]I guess someone finally wrote an article about our 3 2nd rounders.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/08/AR2009100804038.html]washingtonpost.com[/url][/quote]

I read the article and my opinion of it is this. Kelly was injured last season so this is really his rookie season. Thomas had a learning problem and that slowed him from getting on the field. I still think that Zorn needs to design some plays to get the ball into DT hands because he has so much ability with the RAC. Kelly appears to be more of a intermediate route guy that can move the chains and red zone threat. This falls on coaching mainly because good coaches find a way to get players the ball.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Let's see how we fared this week -

Kelly 1 REC for 8 YDS (complete non-factor)

Thomas 3 REC for 19 YDS (plus a key drop on a perfectly thrown deep ball)

and for good measure

Fred Davis 3 REC for 23 YDS (and for the love of God, stop making like Skeets Nehemiah in the high hurdles and put your head down for the extra yard).

A Marko Mitchell sighting can't come soon enough.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;606249]Let's see how we fared this week -

Kelly 1 REC for 8 YDS (complete non-factor)

Thomas 3 REC for 19 YDS (plus a key drop on a perfectly thrown deep ball)

and for good measure

Fred Davis 3 REC for 23 YDS (and for the love of God, stop making like Skeets Nehemiah in the high hurdles and put your head down for the extra yard).

A Marko Mitchell sighting can't come soon enough.[/quote]

That Campbell pass to DT was right on the money. Dude's gotta catch that. Lay out!

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;606930]That Campbell pass to DT was right on the money. Dude's gotta catch that. Lay out![/quote]

Exactly. We have so many missed opportunites and honestly I players leave a lot of plays on the field.

1. That play.
2. The fumble by Davis.
3. The poor tackling of Delhomme. (what happend to swarming to the ball? - that ws somethign Gregg Williams used to coach)
4. The punt return mishap.
5. Orakpo lining up off sides.
6. Not to mention us using time outs because Zorn can't get a play in on time.

All of these plays killed us.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;607113]Exactly. We have so many missed opportunites and honestly I players leave a lot of plays on the field.

1. That play.
2. The fumble by Davis.
3. The poor tackling of Delhomme. (what happend to swarming to the ball? - that ws somethign Gregg Williams used to coach)
4. The punt return mishap.
5. Orakpo lining up off sides.
6. Not to mention us using time outs because Zorn can't get a play in on time.

All of these plays killed us.[/quote]

I think that maybe the biggest debacle was Batiste's penalty for not lining up on the LOS. That was 3rd & 11 & JC hit ARE for what would've been a 1st. We were driving & had momentum. 3rd & 16 he throws to Davis who is 3-4 yards shy of a 1st.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=freddyg12;607125]I think that maybe the biggest debacle was Batiste's penalty for not lining up on the LOS. That was 3rd & 11 & JC hit ARE for what would've been a 1st. We were driving & had momentum. 3rd & 16 he throws to Davis who is 3-4 yards shy of a 1st.[/quote]

Regardless of where Davis is he fumbled the ball. This is a game of field psotion also. If he doens't get the 1st..oh well. We punt the ball and buckle down. our team is not disciplined or efficient and the coaches are much to blame as the players are. They need to cut down on penatlies and stop making mental mistakes.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Czabe just reported that Kelly and Thomas have a [I]combined [/I]11 REC for 99 YDS through 5 games. Rookie Jeremy Maclin had over 140 YDS and two long TD's [I]yesterday[/I]. Like I said earlier, time to see whether Marko Mitchell can make a play. I have no doubt that he would have caught the deep ball that Thomas dropped with the game on the line yesterday. I'm tired of hearing what beasts Kelly, Thomas and Fred Davis are in practice. Either put up on Sunday or SHUT UP!!!

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;607199]Czabe just reported that Kelly and Thomas have a [I]combined [/I]11 REC for 99 YDS through 5 games. Rookie Jeremy Maclin had over 140 YDS and two long TD's [I]yesterday[/I]. Like I said earlier, time to see whether Marko Mitchell can make a play. I have no doubt that he would have caught the deep ball that Thomas dropped with the game on the line yesterday. I'm tired of hearing what beasts Kelly, Thomas and Fred Davis are in practice. Either put up on Sunday or SHUT UP!!![/quote]

Totally agreed.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;607199]Czabe just reported that Kelly and Thomas have a [I]combined [/I]11 REC for 99 YDS through 5 games. Rookie Jeremy Maclin had over 140 YDS and two long TD's [I]yesterday[/I]. Like I said earlier, time to see whether Marko Mitchell can make a play. I have no doubt that he would have caught the deep ball that Thomas dropped with the game on the line yesterday. I'm tired of hearing what beasts Kelly, Thomas and Fred Davis are in practice. Either put up on Sunday or SHUT UP!!![/quote]

I'm getting sick of Davis. He almost fumbled the ball, and couldn't get a GD yard to keep the drive going. Ugh.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Thomas, Kelly, and Davis are all to busy laughing at the fact that Vinny thought they were worthy of first round grades. That is why they have trouble getting their heads in the game.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;607199]Czabe just reported that Kelly and Thomas have a [I]combined [/I]11 REC for 99 YDS through 5 games. Rookie Jeremy Maclin had over 140 YDS and two long TD's [I]yesterday[/I]. Like I said earlier, time to see whether Marko Mitchell can make a play. I have no doubt that he would have caught the deep ball that Thomas dropped with the game on the line yesterday. I'm tired of hearing what beasts Kelly, Thomas and Fred Davis are in practice. Either put up on Sunday or SHUT UP!!![/quote]

I agree. I think Marko would have caught that ball also. How many deep balls did Kelly or Thomas catch and how many TDs did they catch in preseason? Davis needs to hold on to the ball. I wouldn't mind using him with Cooley like the Chicago uses their TE's.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=dmvskinzfan08;607160]Regardless of where Davis is he fumbled the ball. This is a game of field psotion also. If he doens't get the 1st..oh well. We punt the ball and buckle down. our team is not disciplined or efficient and the coaches are much to blame as the players are. They need to cut down on penatlies and stop making mental mistakes.[/quote]

Davis was down because the ground caused his fumble. He did have effort. Even Cooley and Moss fumble. I agree our guys have to many mental errors that a bad team can not aford to make.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;607199]Czabe just reported that Kelly and Thomas have a [I]combined [/I]11 REC for 99 YDS through 5 games. Rookie Jeremy Maclin had over 140 YDS and two long TD's [I]yesterday[/I]. Like I said earlier, time to see whether Marko Mitchell can make a play. I have no doubt that he would have caught the deep ball that Thomas dropped with the game on the line yesterday. I'm tired of hearing what beasts Kelly, Thomas and Fred Davis are in practice. Either put up on Sunday or SHUT UP!!![/quote]

The problem with our offense we dont go deep unless its a play action cause our O-Line did not give JC enough time to go deep. He was only taking 3 step drops. Thomas was the only deep pass all day. Maybe they should try to go deep early in ball games not at the end.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SouperMeister;607199]Czabe just reported that Kelly and Thomas have a [I]combined [/I]11 REC for 99 YDS through 5 games. Rookie Jeremy Maclin had over 140 YDS and two long TD's [I]yesterday[/I]. Like I said earlier, time to see whether Marko Mitchell can make a play. I have no doubt that he would have caught the deep ball that Thomas dropped with the game on the line yesterday. I'm tired of hearing what beasts Kelly, Thomas and Fred Davis are in practice. Either put up on Sunday or SHUT UP!!![/quote]


If DeSean Jackson, Macklin, or even Randy Moss for that matter were on the Skins with Campbell and this dreadful O-line, do u really think they would be having the same results.......ummmmm NO! Don't get me wrong talent has alot to do with it but the situation a team puts the player is huge. Put Kelly with say Peyton or Brees, he'd would most likely have 1 or 2 td's already.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Can someone explain to me why our WR's are not using the "Curl", and "Come back" routes? I see all the teams that have rookie WR's using them and getting the ball to their WR's yet we don't seem to use them and are not getting the ball to anyone not named Moss, Cooley or ARE.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Because our offense is only designed for posts and quick slants. Curls are not effective in college.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

^Thank You. So in essence the reason our WR's don't use them is because most likely they didn't use them in college so they are not well trained in how to do this? I hope I read you right. and...not sure if it was a slam on Hixon but either way I liked it. ;)

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=SBXVII;607589]^Thank You. So in essence the reason our WR's don't use them is because most likely they didn't use them in college so they are not well trained in how to do this? I hope I read you right. and...not sure if it was a slam on Hixon but either way I liked it. ;)[/quote]
yup :)

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

D. thomas made a few catches sunday. They ran him on a slant & he made a nice catch in traffic. That should be a route that he can pull off w/his size. I know he didn't make the catch on the deep pass but hopefully, he's gaining some confidence.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

Where is Marko Mitchell? I'd like to see him get some playing time.

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

[quote=JLee9718;607970]Where is Marko Mitchell? I'd like to see him get some playing time.[/quote]

Wouldn't we all!! Was talking about this at the Redskins bar watching the game. I think somsone said he isn't playing because he doesn't know the shorter routes. I am like aren't the coaches (hixon and others) supposed to be teaching him this. If not why are they here?

Re: Where are Kelly & Thomas?
 

I think that Kelly could be OK, but Thomas frustrates me to no end. The guy last year gets a few really bad offensive push off penalties and lines up off sides. He is just not mentally in the game. You can't have someone like that who can't be in the game mentally out there and not produce for you team, let alone hurt its production. I would be all in favor in giving Mitchell a bump because what do we have to lose? The offense is near the bottom any way. Start putting in players who want it more because if I am Zorn you are going to be fired. Start replacing players who show that they want to play during practice and during the game if there are players who are making too many mistakes, you replace them. I think that is pretty simple. I don't think that there is anyone on this team who really can say that their job is safe.