Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=skinsfan69;773337]You're talking about maybe the best TE in the history of the NFL. Cooley is simply not in the same neighborhood as TG. If we put him out on the trade market we'd probably get a mid rounder. No way do we get a 2nd rounder IMO.[/quote]

You're right, Gonzo is the best Tight End in history. However they traded for him at 33 years old. So from a historical perspective you're correct Gonzo is much better than Cooley. However from a 2010 perspective Cooley is the better player. On top of being younger he also has better stats on a team with unsteady play from the Quarterback position. The fact that both players are the second best receiving option on their respective teams would make that part of the comparison a wash.

Not that I want to trade Cooley but I do believe that a 29 year old Cooley has equal trade value to that of a 33 year old Gonzalez.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;773340]I want people that can cover 1 on 1 not clowns that can't tackle and get burnt. Rogers might have stone hands but he can cover, Champ can play into his late 30's, Barnes is young and you can draft a young CB in two or three years. So back to you Vinny.[/quote]

Speaking of Champ, I hear-tell that Champ isn't going to be on the Bronco's next year in all reality. I know he is getting older but what does everyone think about a Champ and Burgundy/Gold reunion tour!?!?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;773340]I want people that can cover 1 on 1 not clowns that can't tackle and get burnt. Rogers might have stone hands but he can cover, Champ can play into his late 30's, Barnes is young and you can draft a young CB in two or three years. So back to you Vinny.[/quote]

Since we play majority zone it's not necessary to have lock down man corners. Rogers isn't as strong in zone coverage and the 3-4 is predicated on getting turnovers when opportunities exist, not Rogers strength. Sure Champ CAN play into his late 30's but he won't do us much good injured 6 games on the sideline. You were saying Vinny..

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;773346]You're right, Gonzo is the best Tight End in history. However they traded for him at 33 years old. So from a historical perspective you're correct Gonzo is much better than Cooley. However from a 2010 perspective Cooley is the better player. On top of being younger he also has better stats on a team with unsteady play from the Quarterback position. The fact that both players are the second best receiving option on their respective teams would make that part of the comparison a wash.

Not that I want to trade Cooley but I do believe that a 29 year old Cooley has equal trade value to that of a 33 year old Gonzalez.[/quote]


what team out there needs a pass catching TE? it's an easy position to find so i really don't see anyone making a trade for him. maybe seattle?

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=skinsfan69;773360]what team out there needs a pass catching TE? it's an easy position to find so i really don't see anyone making a trade for him. maybe seattle?[/quote]

They drafted John Carlson for that.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SkinzWin;773352]Speaking of Champ, I hear-tell that Champ isn't going to be on the Bronco's next year in all reality. I know he is getting older but what does everyone think about a Champ and Burgundy/Gold reunion tour!?!?[/quote]

I know that Champ can still play corner, but I wonder if it would be better to bring him as a FS. He can be our next Darren Sharper.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

we just need a RB,WRs,another CB, OL,DL.

thats all. this is gonna be awhile fellas...
i hope somebody cuts an elite rb or wr this year.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Ruhskins;773364]I know that Champ can still play corner, but I wonder if it would be better to bring him as a FS. He can be our next Darren Sharper.[/quote]

He may still be a damn fine cover-2 corner and those corner-to-safety shifts aren't guaranteed to work out.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I just dont see why wed wanna rebuild with Rex Grossman. Cmon guys... this is the same fanbase that used to rip on Campbell week after week... Grossmans in the same bracket and im not content.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;773370]He may still be a damn fine cover-2 corner and those corner-to-safety shifts aren't guaranteed to work out.[/quote]

Nah... id run em at starting CB anyways. Hes still got a couple good years left.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Skins4L;773371]I just dont see why wed wanna rebuild with Rex Grossman. Cmon guys... this is the same fanbase that used to rip on Campbell week after week... Grossmans in the same bracket and im not content.[/quote]

It assures us a poor ass record, which then means higher draft position. Oakland came out pretty well from the JaFatcus decable.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=drew54;770922]I would really like to see this OL with Heyer at guard and Montgomery or Lichtensteiger at Center.

I get a feeling that Heyer is the only back up for either tackle position, so they do not want to risk it.[/quote]

Nothing is etched in stone but, according to coaches, after Dockery and Hicks were replaced by Montgomery and Lichtensteiger the line actually performed better. That's not saying they'll be the 2011 starters at the two respective positions but I would imagine their play so far this season will give them both a leg up on any incoming competition.

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/29/AR2010122903577.html]On Washington Redskins' revamped offensive line, nothing is certain[/url]

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;773373]It assures us a poor ass record, which then means higher draft position. Oakland came out pretty well from the JaFatcus decable.[/quote]

i guess your right lol

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Skins4L;773377]i guess your right lol[/quote]

On second thought, we could keep McNabb and suck even worse. :D

Or bring back Patrick Ramsey. After all, he was Cutler's backup. :D

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Skins4L;773372]Nah... id run em at starting CB anyways. Hes still got a couple good years left.[/quote]

Yeah this is true. But I would hope the team would start grooming a young corner (or see if Barnes develops) since Champ is already in his 30s. (I would assume in this scenario that either Rogers or Hall would be gone).

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I think we have enough CB's...

We don't need another over the hill player who spent his best years on another team.

Wake the hell up people

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Bucket;773383]I think we have enough CB's...

We don't need another over the hill player who spent his best years on another team.

Wake the hell up people[/quote]

No, we don't. None of our established CBs have played such that they "shutdown" caliber. They're all expendable as a result of that.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Can we all stop talking about trading Cooley...

ITS COOLEY PEOPLE... u know.. 1st down reception COOOOOOOOOOOOOLEY.
Hes a great lockeroom guy too. Hes a skin through and through.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Im so lost on where we go from here though.

I couldnt even think of how to rebuild us in Madden.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;773385]No, we don't. None of our established CBs have played such that they "shutdown" caliber. They're all expendable as a result of that.[/quote]

What corners in these league actually play shutdown? That word is overused, and misunderstood imo..

I see "shutdown" corners give up receptions like everyone else. It's a passing league now, and to just find two CB's who can perform at a high level, and make plays is a good thing imo.

I think we have a pretty strong bunch at CB, but severly lack at safety and linebacker. I think we need to keep what we have at CB, and work on putting some more talent/depth at those other two positions on the field. Don't even get me started on Dline. We need alot of help in that department, but maybe we can sacrifice some skill there if we add 2 more stud LB's.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Bucket;773404]What corners in these league actually play shutdown? That word is overused, and misunderstood imo..

I see "shutdown" corners give up receptions like everyone else. It's a passing league now, and to just find two CB's who can perform at a high level, and make plays is a good thing imo.

I think we have a pretty strong bunch at CB, but severly lack at safety and linebacker. I think we need to keep what we have at CB, and work on putting some more talent/depth at those other two positions on the field. Don't even get me started on Dline. We need alot of help in that department, but maybe we can sacrifice some skill there if we add 2 more stud LB's.[/quote] I understand that the gain from grabbing a quality safety(which incidentally, could have been address by forgoing Donovan F. McNabb) is more than improving our corner situation, but even so, that doesn't mean when have "enough" of them. It just means we can tread water with these guys longer than at other positions. However, if we can draft a young one who could be elite, we'd be damned not to try and take that chance.

If you aren't satifsfied with shutdown, how about "complete". Springs was the last corner who could actually both cover and get some interceptions. Well, Rogers played lights out in 2008, but has NEVER returned to that form even though he still can cover. He gives giant ass cushions that lets opponents move the chains and either makes winning more difficult or help cause a loss with his dropped picks. Reeks of mediocrity or just a bit above mediocre.

Hall, is the riverboat gambler. He punishes shit qbs, but decent qbs and better have a field day with him more often than not. You know he's going to win a few times, but you also know that he's going to "lose" a few. He gave the Cowboys three points, which proved to be the difference. Just like Rogers, being slightly above mediocre is not enough.

Rogers is more than likely going to enter the "depreciation phase" once he hits 33, which is very soon. Hall can't carry the load now and is going to be roasted more and more once his athleticism starts going bye-bye.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;773407]I understand that the gain from grabbing a quality safety(which incidentally, could have been address by forgoing Donovan F. McNabb) is more than improving our corner situation, but even so, that doesn't mean when have "enough" of them. It just means we can tread water with these guys longer than at other positions. However, if we can draft a young one who could be elite, we'd be damned not to try and take that chance.

If you aren't satifsfied with shutdown, how about "complete". Springs was the last corner who could actually both cover and get some interceptions. Well, Rogers played lights out in 2008, but has NEVER returned to that form even though he still can cover. He gives giant ass cushions that lets opponents move the chains and either makes winning more difficult or help cause a loss with his dropped picks. Reeks of mediocrity or just a bit above mediocre.

Hall, is the riverboat gambler. He punishes shit qbs, but decent qbs and better have a field day with him more often than not. You know he's going to win a few times, but you also know that he's going to "lose" a few. He gave the Cowboys three points, which proved to be the difference. Just like Rogers, being slightly above mediocre is not enough.

Rogers is more than likely going to enter the "depreciation phase" once he hits 33, which is very soon. Hall can't carry the load now and is going to be roasted more and more once his athleticism starts going bye-bye.[/quote]

Exactly, that is why i don't think bringing back Bailey is not the answer. P. Buc and Rogers are the same age. I think P. Buc has played better overall football then Rogers has this year. I also like Barnes, and I think he could be a starter for us in the future. That's not coming from just last game. I think he's above average when it comes to his man coverage skills, and that's something that Hall, and Rogers both lack imo.

Hall may of given Dallas 3 points last game, but he also gave us 6 the first time we met, and the reason for our win agaisnt Dallas, and not to mention Chicago. I will always take the good with the bad.

I have a feeling Rogers is going to want big $ to come back to Washington. He's already stated in the past he doesn't enjoy it here at times. I wouldn't be suprised to see P.Buc, and Hall as our starters next year or even Hall, and Barnes.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Very telling comments by Haslett on Rogers today:
“Probably the only disappointing thing, he had the hamstring, he had the other hamstring, then he has the calf,” he said. “I think Carlos is a good football player. Somehow he’s got to remain consistent over a six-month span. The last couple of years, he’s had a hard time doing that for whatever reason. I think if he can do that and be consistent football player, he’d be a pretty good player.”

So now that's 2 coaching staffs that have been less than sold on Rogers. I really don't get what fans see in that guy. I don't think he starts in half of the good secondaries in the league.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Paintrain;773514]Very telling comments by Haslett on Rogers today:
“Probably the only disappointing thing, he had the hamstring, he had the other hamstring, then he has the calf,” he said. “I think Carlos is a good football player. Somehow he’s got to remain consistent over a six-month span. The last couple of years, he’s had a hard time doing that for whatever reason. I think if he can do that and be consistent football player, he’d be a pretty good player.”

So now that's 2 coaching staffs that have been less than sold on Rogers. I really don't get what fans see in that guy. I don't think he starts in half of the good secondaries in the league.[/quote]In our world: acknowledgement of player being injured and missing games = not being sold on said player.

We also live in a world where DeAngelo Hall goes to three pro-bowls in a mediocre career, and where Casey Rabach gets extensions so long as he can keep on keepin on. So there's plenty to complain about.

Rogers also won this award, which is just as good as a pro bowl nomination:

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/carlos-rogers/carlos-rogers-win-award-from-r.html?wprss=redskinsinsider]Redskins Insider - Carlos Rogers wins award from Redskins media[/url]

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=GTripp0012;773516]In our world: acknowledgement of player being injured and missing games = not being sold on said player.

We also live in a world where DeAngelo Hall goes to three pro-bowls in a mediocre career, and where Casey Rabach gets extensions so long as he can keep on keepin on. So there's plenty to complain about.

Rogers also won this award, which is just as good as a pro bowl nomination:

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/carlos-rogers/carlos-rogers-win-award-from-r.html?wprss=redskinsinsider]Redskins Insider - Carlos Rogers wins award from Redskins media[/url][/quote]

We can't ignore that Rogers was benched twice by the prior regime. Now our current DC is saying he's inconsistent. It's not an unfair claim to say that 2 coaching staffs don't view him as irreplacable.

Also the pro bowl voting, while flawed, is far from the 'good guy' media award. You're better than that.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Paintrain;773518]We can't ignore that Rogers was benched twice by the prior regime. Now our current DC is saying he's inconsistent. It's not an unfair claim to say that 2 coaching staffs don't view him as irreplacable.

Also the pro bowl voting, while flawed, is far from the 'good guy' media award. You're better than that.[/quote]We can ignore that because the prior regime was incompetent and got fired for such incompetence.

I didn't even know the good guy media award existed before today, but I'm happy it went to a decent player.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

[quote=Bucket;773412]

Hall may of given Dallas 3 points last game, but he also gave us 6 the first time we met, and the reason for our win agaisnt Dallas, and not to mention Chicago. I will always take the good with the bad.
[/quote]This falls in line perfectly with the description of mediocre...neither bad enough to be "bad" but not good enough to be considered in the league of the elite or even very good ones. I'm saying that we have to get better than mediocre.

Hall is a hole that can be covered by great play from other members of the secondary. If he has to carry the load, he's going to choke more often than not. Come playoff time, we aren't going to see much of Jason Garrett's(pre-HC) and/or Tubby's stupidity or a god-awful offensive line like Chicago's which exacerbate Cutler's proneness to tossing INTs in bunches. As I said, Hall can easily punish bad coaches/qbs, etc, and Dallas game 1 had bad coaching and Chicago had the shit O-line.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

I still maintain that the secondary will be fine as it is now if we can just upgrade the line and LBs. If you can find a free safety that would replace Kareem Moore, good; he's clearly the weakest link. But if you let go of Carlos Rogers, then you have to add CB to the list of needs.

Just get some help up front to bring more pressure, and our guys in the defensive backfield will be okay.

Re: Is it finally time to rebuild??
 

Anyone care to list the top 4 proposed QB's in the draft?
Do we have a shot at #2 or #3 if we pick at the 12 or 13 spot?