Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;781646]I agree with a lot of this. Overall, I think Los and Hall actually complement each other very well, and even though our D had some rough moments, I hope we keep both. Hall has outstanding hands and QB's know that if he's in the area they need to be careful with their throws. That's an asset in Pass Defense if it makes the QB hesitate or re-scan. Los, may not make QB's fear throwing his way, but he can keep his receivers covered very well. This can and has caused problems for opposing QBs and there is a reason PB was getting thrown on as much as he was. Out of all the defensive positions, I would think CB is not one we should be spending a lot of draft or FA effort on.[/quote]Just by the total # of targets, I would argue that no one is thinking twice about throwing at Hall. Not to say everyone is Jay Cutler out there -- targeting him for the sake of targeting him -- but he's averaging between 7 and 8 targets per game as a Redskins. Revis and Asomugha, by comparison, usually see about 2 or 3.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781701]Just by the total # of targets, I would argue that no one is thinking twice about throwing at Hall. Not to say everyone is Jay Cutler out there -- targeting him for the sake of targeting him -- but he's averaging between 7 and 8 targets per game as a Redskins. Revis and Asomugha, by comparison, usually see about 2 or 3.[/quote]
I guess, I would clarify, that he's not a lockdown type, so yes qb's will throw his way, but that also is because Los is closer to a lockdown type (now give us his stats, cuz I don't have any and am just thinking out loud). I know QBs will throw at Hall, but they most certainly look at him as more of a threat to intercept a ball than Los is.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781701]Just by the total # of targets, I would argue that no one is thinking twice about throwing at Hall. Not to say everyone is Jay Cutler out there -- targeting him for the sake of targeting him -- but he's averaging between 7 and 8 targets per game as a Redskins. Revis and Asomugha, by comparison, usually see about 2 or 3.[/quote]

GT, you've also said that the cover 2 scheme the skins ran most of the year left pretty big gaps between the cb & safeties. Late in the year you said it improved & I think that showed in the defense's overall improvement, there were fewer easy completions in the seems.

Hall could be more of a shutdown corner IMO, but the defense isn't set up that way & as discussed here, he is a gambler. I think he could have his best years ahead; he's a guy that had to mature as a pro, after being MeAngelo in college & his early years w/ATl. Although I was against signing him, we may be getting the best out of him.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=SkinzWin;781664]I was sure for awhile Khareem Moore was going to be that guy. After his injury the wheels seem like they just fell off. I still miss ST. HTTR <3 #21[/quote]

Me too, I thought he looked really good last year & would step up as a starter. Instead, he looked timid and/or lost much of the time.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=tryfuhl;781609]Actually he lucked into a few of them that game. Props for being able to hold onto them though lol[/quote]

He must just be one lucky guy. I don't know... I think if it was one interception, that might just be being at the right place at the right time by accident. But if you're talking about his record-tying performance, that means that he was at the right place at the right time 4 TIMES.

Football is all about team and player positioning on the field.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

... and Hall really proved that he belonged in the Pro Bowl, despite of what some of you think. He must have just gotten lucky again with the strip and touchdown and the interception... or the quarterbacks were just attacking him more so he got more chances at making plays.

Yeah, I guess not respecting him works... just ask Cutler.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=warriorzpath;781714]He must just be one lucky guy. I don't know... I think if it was one interception, that might just be being at the right place at the right time by accident. But if you're talking about his record-tying performance, that means that he was at the right place at the right time 4 TIMES.

Football is all about team and player positioning on the field.[/quote]


Two he came into on poor throws and the other two were thrown directly to him as if he were the receiver. That's not to say that he didn't do the right things but had the QB and receiver done the right things maybe only one of those would've been picked. I'm not taking anything away from Hall but there's a reason that he came down with 4 that day and only 2 on the rest of the year. If you don't believe me just watch the video.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=tryfuhl;781738]Two he came into on poor throws and the other two were thrown directly to him as if he were the receiver. That's not to say that he didn't do the right things but had the QB and receiver done the right things maybe only one of those would've been picked. I'm not taking anything away from Hall but there's a reason that he came down with 4 that day and only 2 on the rest of the year. If you don't believe me just watch the video.[/quote]

To me, capitalizing on opposing players' mistakes and circumstances does not equate to being lucky.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

Here, to me is the argument against Hall's INTs:

His 11 Washington Redskin picks (excluding the Hail Mary vs. Kolb) came against the following QBs:

2008 Week 11 -- Romo (w/broken thumb)
2008 Week 12 -- E. Manning
2009 Week 1 -- E. Manning
2009 Week 4 -- J. Johnson
2009 Week 5 -- Delhomme
2009 Week 10 -- C. Simms
2010 Week 7 -- Cutler
2010 Week 7 -- Cutler
2010 Week 7 -- Cutler
2010 Week 7 -- Cutler
2010 Week 8 -- Stafford

My point is: it's not like the Redskins just haven't played great quarterbacks. We've seen Schaub, Peyton, Vick, Ryan, Rodgers, Romo, Eli, and McNabb while Hall's starting. He managed to get Eli twice (and Eli's no slouch though he will throw it up for grabs), but in the rest of the games against the best passers Hall was, in his best moments, a non-factor.

I mean, Carlos Rogers only has four picks in the last three seasons, but he's also gotten Warner and Schaub once each (with a horrible drop against Peyton). Against the most prolific QBs we've faced, Rogers -- not Hall -- has been the better playmaker.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

For Pete's Sake, enough with the stupid stats. Why can't people just stop belly-aching about DeAngelo Hall and support the guy. Geez...he was voted to the Pro Bowl and won MVP honors in the game. He's a Redskin. He represented our team, and you people are going to sit here and tell me that you're going to find something wrong with each and every little positive thing that comes our way? Ridiculous! Just plain ridiculous! I understand the bad vibes against guys like Hanesworth, but this? :doh:

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=warriorzpath;781740]To me, capitalizing on opposing players' mistakes and circumstances does not equate to being lucky.[/quote]

That's like saying walking behind a guy who drops a 100 dollar bill and then he vanishes isn't lucky. He was out of position a couple of times and luckily Cutler put it in that spot.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781761]For Pete's Sake, enough with the stupid stats. Why can't people just stop belly-aching about DeAngelo Hall and support the guy. Geez...he was voted to the Pro Bowl and won MVP honors in the game. He's a Redskin. He represented our team, and you people are going to sit here and tell me that you're going to find something wrong with each and every little positive thing that comes our way? Ridiculous! Just plain ridiculous! I understand the bad vibes against guys like Hanesworth, but this? :doh:[/quote]You can't be disappointed in Albert Haynesworth. He's a Redskin and he needs our support at all times. Criticism is not the answer to everything.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

Unfortunately the video is no longer available. But when I studied it, on 3 occasions, I seen D. Hall breaking on the ball from at least 5 yards out. They where not thrown at him. On one he jammed the receiver and continued the receivers route knowing it was a timing pass. On another he broke from way behind an stole the ball in the air right out of the hands of the receiver. Thats not luck, thats just awesome awareness.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781787]You can't be disappointed in Albert Haynesworth. He's a Redskin and he needs our support at all times. Criticism is not the answer to everything.[/quote]

Nope, completely different situation and you should know the difference. If A.H. truly wants to stay with the Redskins and help the team win by being a team player, he's got my full support. However, you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that isn't the case with AH. Even if he didn't want to be here, but kept his mouth shut, played hard all year long, and got the Pro Bowl nod, I would have supported him. But, that was [U]not[/U] the case, so you're comparing apples to oranges.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781787]You can't be disappointed in Albert Haynesworth. He's a Redskin and he needs our support at all times. Criticism is not the answer to everything.[/quote]

lol...like McNabb?

Big difference between Hall and Haynesworth...Hall gives 100%, Haynesworth 40-45%

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

Warrick Holdman may better a better choice than Fatus Lumpus Albertus Feignworth III for that counterexample by Tripp.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781812]Nope, completely different situation and you should know the difference. If A.H. truly wants to stay with the Redskins and help the team win by being a team player, he's got my full support. However, you would have to be a complete idiot not to see that isn't the case with AH. Even if he didn't want to be here, but kept his mouth shut, played hard all year long, and got the Pro Bowl nod, I would have supported him. But, that was [U]not[/U] the case, so you're comparing apples to oranges.[/quote]Well, you're right that it's not the same situation, but it's exactly the same principle of supporting a Redskins player that may or may not always deserve unconditional support.

I still support DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth pretty equally based on the idea that they are still Redskins. Neither is one of my five favorite Redskins, but they are both integral parts of the team of the last two seasons. Some people have moralized why Hall should be untouchable in terms of criticism amongst fans, but that's an opinion they hold. Hall is not untouchable, even amongst his supporters.

My point was I don't like arbitrary lines drawn over who I can and cannot support. My point was not that there aren't very good reasons for being critical of Haynesworth (there are). There are also very good reasons for being critical of DHall's effort. And while their negatives couldn't be more different in nature, it would be an inconsistent principle to suggest that one isn't deserving of criticism for his on-field acts, and the other is.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=Chico23231;781813]lol...like McNabb?

Big difference between Hall and Haynesworth...Hall gives 100%, Haynesworth 40-45%[/quote]I can't believe in the fairy tale that Hall gives 100% all the time on the field. If that's true, he's simply not a skilled professional athlete.

I don't ask any of my team's players to give 100% on every play, because it's not realistic. I would ask them to put in enough effort to produce results representative of their skills at the highest level of pro football competition, the NFL. Haynesworth, I think, satisfies this requirement when he's on the field. So I wouldn't consider him an underachiever while playing.

Practice, perhaps. I don't know. But McNabb also took a lot of criticism for his practice effort. Just saying.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;781878]Warrick Holdman may better a better choice than Fatus Lumpus Albertus Feignworth III for that counterexample by Tripp.[/quote]Holdman would have been fine too, but the point I wanted to make was more related to the moralization of a player's actions.

Haynesworth may receive more just criticism than Hall, but that doesn't mean that all criticism of Hall's play is unjust.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781898]Well, you're right that it's not the same situation, but it's exactly the same principle of supporting a Redskins player that may or may not always deserve unconditional support.

I still support DeAngelo Hall and Albert Haynesworth pretty equally based on the idea that they are still Redskins. Neither is one of my five favorite Redskins, but they are both integral parts of the team of the last two seasons. Some people have moralized why Hall should be untouchable in terms of criticism amongst fans, but that's an opinion they hold. Hall is not untouchable, even amongst his supporters.

My point was I don't like arbitrary lines drawn over who I can and cannot support. My point was not that there aren't very good reasons for being critical of Haynesworth (there are). There are also very good reasons for being critical of DHall's effort. And while their negatives couldn't be more different in nature, it would be an inconsistent principle to suggest that one isn't deserving of criticism for his on-field acts, and the other is.[/quote]

And my point is you guys are beating a dead horse with drudging up all of these stats to paint a picture as to why Hall is trash and shouldn't have been voted into the Pro Bowl. Even some of you have went as far to discount such an honor as anything being worthwhile. i.e. "The Pro Bowl is a joke! Who cares that Hall made those INTs, TD, and was MVP, the quarterbacks weren't trying....etc...etc...." And meanwhile, if no Redskins player had made the Pro Bowl, then you guys would be pouting because the team had no pro bowl caliber representatives on the team. And I am saying, let it go already. All of you! Hall made the Pro Bowl. Whether if you agree with it or not, whether if you think it was anything worthwhile or not, the fact is, DeAngelo Hall was a Pro Bowl player this year and won the MVP award for the game. I don't care what type of stats you have or how you try to bend them, it doesn't erase the fact that Hall was a Pro Bowl player. I find it's much better to just accept it and be happy for him, rather than to complain and be critical about it for pages and pages.

With that said, D. Hall is not one of my favorites in regards to current Redskins players. He's not even in my top five, even though he is a VA Tech grad. I'm just sick and tired of the belly-aching that has become Redskins nation.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781918]And my point is you guys are beating a dead horse with drudging up all of these stats to paint a picture as to why Hall is trash and shouldn't have been voted into the Pro Bowl. Even some of you have went as far to discount such an honor as anything being worthwhile. i.e. "The Pro Bowl is a joke! Who cares that Hall made those INTs, TD, and was MVP, the quarterbacks weren't trying....etc...etc...." And meanwhile, if no Redskins player had made the Pro Bowl, then you guys would be pouting because the team had no pro bowl caliber representatives on the team. And I am saying, let it go already. All of you! Hall made the Pro Bowl. Whether if you agree with it or not, whether if you think it was anything worthwhile or not, the fact is, DeAngelo Hall was a Pro Bowl player this year and won the MVP award for the game. I don't care what type of stats you have or how you try to bend them, it doesn't erase the fact that Hall was a Pro Bowl player. I find it's much better to just accept it and be happy for him, rather than to complain and be critical about it for pages and pages.

With that said, D. Hall is not one of my favorites in regards to current Redskins players. He's not even in my top five, even though he is a VA Tech grad. I'm just sick and tired of the belly-aching that has become Redskins nation.[/quote]Well, then you're arguing a strawman: Skins fan who thinks that it's a horrible thing that DeAngelo Hall was allowed to play in the probowl and made the most of his opportunity. That person doesn't exist.

As far as whether he deserved to play in the pro bowl, that actually is beating a dead horse. The pro bowl selectors can't agree on anything without numbers, and those exist only for passers, rushers, receivers, and pass rushers. For cornerbacks, it's guys with lots of interceptions. I think everyone agrees that's a stupid way to do it, but a lot of people still use interception totals to defend selections.

A lot of fans are just very indifferent to the fact that Hall was a pro-bowler this year. Your problem seems to be with that, though I think that's a really silly thing to be worked up about: people not caring that Hall was elected to the pro bowl. Maybe next year, I can prepare to be really excited for the Redskins pro bowlers. I don't think it's going to happen though.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=tryfuhl;781772]That's like saying walking behind a guy who drops a 100 dollar bill and then he vanishes isn't lucky. He was out of position a couple of times and luckily Cutler put it in that spot.[/quote]

That's not a good analogy and doesn't make any sense to me. You don't purposely walk behind rich people, waiting for them to drop a $100 bill.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781918] I'm just sick and tired of the belly-aching that has become Redskins nation.[/quote]

Yup, me too. And I can complain with the best of them.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781932]Well, then you're arguing a strawman: Skins fan who thinks that it's a horrible thing that DeAngelo Hall was allowed to play in the probowl and made the most of his opportunity. [B]That person doesn't exist.[/B][/quote]

LOL! Not from this thread, I would have to disagree.

[quote=GTripp0012;781932]As far as whether he deserved to play in the pro bowl, that actually is beating a dead horse.[/quote]

Exactly, but yet people are arguing such. And all I'm saying is, he made it. Case closed.


[quote=GTripp0012;781932] The pro bowl selectors can't agree on anything without numbers, and those exist only for passers, rushers, receivers, and pass rushers. For cornerbacks, it's guys with lots of interceptions. I think everyone agrees that's a stupid way to do it, but a lot of people still use interception totals to defend selections.[/quote]

The fact is, if they use INTs alone to select cornerbacks to Pro Bowls, then apparently D. Hall qualified with whatever numbers he had. I'm not arguing whether or not that's fair, right, or should be changed. I'm just saying, he made it based on whatever criteria needed to be satisfied. And if the end, they selected him going the any, meny, miny, moe route, then whatever, he's still a Pro Bowler.

[quote=GTripp0012;781932]A lot of fans are just very indifferent to the fact that Hall was a pro-bowler this year. Your problem seems to be with that, though I think that's a really silly thing to be worked up about: people not caring that Hall was elected to the pro bowl. Maybe next year, I can prepare to be really excited for the Redskins pro bowlers. I don't think it's going to happen though.[/quote]

Well, geez, go back and re-read the thread, because apparently there are people here who are really worked up over the fact that he did make it to the pro bowl. It's not all one-sided Tripp. If I get worked up it's over the constant complaining, in general. If the 'skins win, they don't win by enough points, if they lose, let's tear the whole team apart and start over after one year. We need a veteran QB, no we need a rookie QB, etc.... don't get me wrong, I welcome different points of view. I just feel that whether if one agrees or not, let's be happy that there are some positive things to cheer about with this team. Hall, Fletcher, and Orakpo making the Pro Bowl is a positive thing.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781940]Well, geez, go back and re-read the thread, because apparently there are people here who are really worked up over the fact that he did make it to the pro bowl. It's not all one-sided Tripp. If I get worked up it's over the constant complaining, in general. If the 'skins win, they don't win by enough points, if they lose, let's tear the whole team apart and start over after one year. We need a veteran QB, no we need a rookie QB, etc.... don't get me wrong, I welcome different points of view. I just feel that whether if one agrees or not, let's be happy that there are some positive things to cheer about with this team. Hall, Fletcher, and Orakpo making the Pro Bowl is a positive thing.[/quote]But, as somebody who read the thread, it was no ones explicit assertion that DeAngelo Hall was the only player in the pro bowl who didn't deserve to go. There were a lot of bad pro bowl picks this year. There are every year. Hall is who is is, and that's not who a majority of people (on both sides) see him as.

There's plenty of evidence that Hall didn't deserve to be there. Also: plenty that he did. It's factually correct that he was there -- as you've pointed out -- but no one was arguing that. You've been adamant that people admit to something that no one is denying.

I would ask you to just try not to sweat how other individuals perceive Redskin players. We had three pro-bowlers this year, despite being a bad team. That's not unprecedented. Wouldn't you agree with me that if people were just hating on good Redskins players for the sake of hating on good Redskins players, that Fletcher and Orakpo would be getting as much conversation as Hall has received in this thread? But, they have not.

I think people are getting worked up over peoples' perceptions of Hall's performance this year. Part of that perception is that voters put him in the pro bowl. Evidence presented in this thread is just trying to keep his contributions in perspective.

I'll say this: the best corners in football this year were almost all in the AFC, so Hall was not as ridiculous a pick as some may think. It was stupid that Tramon Williams and Brent Grimes had to wait for someone to drop out to get in, but you didn't hear near the viatrol on Charles Woodson or Asante Samuel getting in on reputation that you did on Hall.

It's also true that the more analysis one does, the worse Hall looks. Saying that is not me trying to deny that Hall went to the pro bowl and played well, it's just trying to keep things in perspective. The Pro Bowl is notorious for just taking a cursory look at the seasons player had before counting the ballots. It is what it is: not something worth getting worked up about. But Hall's season is about so much more than being a pro bowler, that talking about his season in context of going to the pro bowl is not worth anyones time.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

From a Redskins fan perspective, I think one of the weirdest things about Hall going to the pro bowl is that Rogers and Buchanon can't get that spot, even though they were our two best corners in YPT. Truth is, if Hall doesn't go, Rogers and Buchanon still aren't getting any consideration, because the narrative on our defense is that it handed out passing yards like candy.

The narrative is correct, but Rogers and Buchanon actually kept the problem from being a lot worse than it was. Moore, Doughty, Landry, and Hall gave up way too many yards to a man, and contributed equally to our yardage problem. Obviously, Landry and Hall both made a number of winning plays, and Moore did not.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781954]But, as somebody who read the thread, it was no ones explicit assertion that DeAngelo Hall was the only player in the pro bowl who didn't deserve to go. There were a lot of bad pro bowl picks this year. There are every year. Hall is who is is, and that's not who a majority of people (on both sides) see him as.

There's plenty of evidence that Hall didn't deserve to be there. Also: plenty that he did. It's factually correct that he was there -- as you've pointed out -- but no one was arguing that. You've been adamant that people admit to something that no one is denying.

I would ask you to just try not to sweat how other individuals perceive Redskin players. We had three pro-bowlers this year, despite being a bad team. That's not unprecedented. Wouldn't you agree with me that if people were just hating on good Redskins players for the sake of hating on good Redskins players, that Fletcher and Orakpo would be getting as much conversation as Hall has received in this thread? But, they have not.

I think people are getting worked up over peoples' perceptions of Hall's performance this year. Part of that perception is that voters put him in the pro bowl. Evidence presented in this thread is just trying to keep his contributions in perspective.

I'll say this: the best corners in football this year were almost all in the AFC, so Hall was not as ridiculous a pick as some may think. It was stupid that Tramon Williams and Brent Grimes had to wait for someone to drop out to get in, but you didn't hear near the viatrol on Charles Woodson or Asante Samuel getting in on reputation that you did on Hall.

It's also true that the more analysis one does, the worse Hall looks. Saying that is not me trying to deny that Hall went to the pro bowl and played well, it's just trying to keep things in perspective. The Pro Bowl is notorious for just taking a cursory look at the seasons player had before counting the ballots. It is what it is: not something worth getting worked up about. But Hall's season is about so much more than being a pro bowler, that talking about his season in context of going to the pro bowl is not worth anyones time.[/quote]

If it's not something to be worked up about, why do further analysis to determine that a player doesn't deserve pro bowl honors? Logic says from human analysis that one doesn't go to such great lengths just for the heck of it. There is always motive other than simply knowledge.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=GTripp0012;781958]From a Redskins fan perspective, I think one of the weirdest things about Hall going to the pro bowl is that Rogers and Buchanon can't get that spot, even though they were our two best corners in YPT. Truth is, if Hall doesn't go, Rogers and Buchanon still aren't getting any consideration, because the narrative on our defense is that it handed out passing yards like candy.

The narrative is correct, but Rogers and Buchanon actually kept the problem from being a lot worse than it was. Moore, Doughty, Landry, and Hall gave up way too many yards to a man, and contributed equally to our yardage problem. Obviously, Landry and Hall both made a number of winning plays, and Moore did not.[/quote]

If CBs are balloted in based solely on INTs, then it's not so weird Rogers and Buchanon were not elected to the Pro Bowl, especially Rogers.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781972]If CBs are balloted in based solely on INTs, then it's not so weird Rogers and Buchanon were not elected to the Pro Bowl, especially Rogers.[/quote]

Yeah I would assume a CB ballot to the pro bowl would more likely be based on playmaking turnovers than yards allowed in a game. Flashy usually gets you to Hawaii. Look at London...

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=SkinzWin;781981]Yeah I would assume a CB ballot to the pro bowl would more likely be based on playmaking turnovers than yards allowed in a game. [B] Flashy usually gets you to Hawaii[/B]. Look at London...[/quote]

A dynamic on field personality is def part of it.

Re: D. Hall is our lone Pro Bowl selection
 

[quote=skinsguy;781971]If it's not something to be worked up about, why do further analysis to determine that a player doesn't deserve pro bowl honors? Logic says from human analysis that one doesn't go to such great lengths just for the heck of it. There is always motive other than simply knowledge.[/quote]Because there's a lot of meaning in the analysis outside of the pro bowl. I want to know who the best 20 corners are in football, in order of their value (I can't know this, but at least after all the hours I've put in I have some sort of idea). The pro bowl outcome is meaningless in terms of analysis, but the analysis still helps.

In this case, the pro bowl revels in its absence of knowledge. I'm perfectly okay with it holding the status quo as a meaningless honor and a meaningless game. That's why I use the descriptive phrase "pro bowl level" in analysis pieces. Actually being named to the pro bowl doesn't mean a thing, but that's an abstract level of performance for all players to strive for.